Bacon/ham/processed meats - what do the figures actually say?

[Darat]

Just read an article about processed meats and how they should be avoided: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8202188.stm

The bit that got my attention was this:


...snip...

Eating too much over decades can raise the risk of bowel cancer, they said.

...snip...

It is only in recent years that the link between processed meats and bowel cancer in adults has been made, with some estimates suggesting that thousands of cases could be prevented if everyone limited intake to 70g a week - equivalent to three rashers of bacon.

...snip...


I've read about this several times in the past but I was wondering if anyone here has actually looked into it and know what the studies actually say?

[dogjones]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/aug/17/cancer-processed-meat-childrens-lunch

Another one on that here. I like salami, dammit. I've liked it ever since I was a wee boy. Am I the walking dead?

[Cainkane1]

Just read an article about processed meats and how they should be avoided: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8202188.stm

The bit that got my attention was this:



I've read about this several times in the past but I was wondering if anyone here has actually looked into it and know what the studies actually say?
Why do foods that kill us taste so darn good?

[Skeptical Greg]

Bacon/ham/processed meats - what do the figures actually say?

I'd say the figures are in pretty sad shape...

Seen Kirsti Allie lately ? Oprah ?

[Jorghnassen]

Science says they are delicious.

OK, enough joking, but I would like to see the actual study and how they measured the processed meat consumption to establish that 70g a week cutoff point...

[Just thinking]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2009/aug/17/cancer-processed-meat-childrens-lunch

Another one on that here. I like salami, dammit. I've liked it ever since I was a wee boy. Am I the walking dead?

Do you like most varieties? ... like Genoa, Soppresatta, Pepperoni, etc?

(Yum ... and let's not forget some Prosciutto de Parma, and provolone ... all drizzled in some EVOO)

Hmmm ... time for a snack (http://portsidedeli.com/yahoo_site_admin/assets/images/3footer1.44165101_std.jpg).

[mumchup]

They can have my bacon, ham & salami when they pry it from my cold dead, cancer riddled fingers.

[crisnee]

I love, or should I say loved salami, bacon etc. too. However, I no longer eat said, because after many years of enduring an unexplained diffuse but pervasive and continual pain that extended from my waist down my right leg to my right foot, I discovered that it was caused by either the sodium nitrite or nitrate that is found in almost all lunch meats.

I wonder if those preservatives are the suspected culprits concerning colon cancer.

[Michael Mozina]

I've read about this several times in the past but I was wondering if anyone here has actually looked into it and know what the studies actually say?

http://men.webmd.com/features/coffee-new-health-food

They say we should eat ham but evidently we should also drink coffee. I'm with mumchup. They'll have to pry my bacon from my cold dead fingers along with my morning cup of coffee. :)

[Giraffe107]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/stove_ownership.png
http://xkcd.com/418/

[ben m]

I love, or should I say loved salami, bacon etc. too. However, I no longer eat said, because after many years of enduring an unexplained diffuse but pervasive and continual pain that extended from my waist down my right leg to my right foot, I discovered that it was caused by either the sodium nitrite or nitrate that is found in almost all lunch meats.


All the better reason to cure your own bacon.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/dining/09cure.html
(http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/09/dining/09cure.html)

[Badly Shaved Monkey]

I love, or should I say loved salami, bacon etc. too. However, I no longer eat said, because after many years of enduring an unexplained diffuse but pervasive and continual pain that extended from my waist down my right leg to my right foot, I discovered that it was caused by either the sodium nitrite or nitrate that is found in almost all lunch meats.

I wonder if those preservatives are the suspected culprits concerning colon cancer.

That sounds very much like sciatica. My goodness, those must have been extraordinarily heavy sandwiches. Bend your knees, keep a straight back and try lifting them again.

[GlennB]

Correlation vs. causation might be rearing its ugly head again.

If those suffering bowel cancer after years of eating plenty of processed meats were also generally very high on meat and low on fibre, then their overall dietary habits might have been the cause. In which case you could (perhaps) have looked at the same figures and correlated bowel cancer with something like their intake of fresh pork or chicken, and reached the same conclusion.

I recall a study that showed that butter and full-fat milk were also fingered as carcinogenic in much the same way. Controlling these survey-style studies is tricky.

[drzeus99]

All the better reason to cure your own bacon.




Never brought home any sick bacon. I've been lucky like that :cool:

[Ivor the Engineer]

http://www.wcrf-uk.org/preventing_cancer/diet/meat_on_the_menu.php

Meat and cancer – the evidence

The evidence that red meat is a cause of bowel cancer is convincing and there is also convincing evidence that processed meat is a cause of bowel cancer.

Red meat contains substances that are linked to bowel cancer. For example, haem, the compound that gives red meat its colour, has been shown to damage the lining of the colon.

Studies also show that people who eat a lot of red meat tend to eat fewer plant-based foods, so they benefit less from their cancer-protective properties.

When meat is preserved by smoking, curing or salting, or by the addition of preservatives, cancer-causing substances (carcinogens) can be formed. These substances can damage cells in the body, leading to the development of cancer.

ETA:

http://www.wcrf-uk.org/preventing_cancer/diet/meat_on_the_menu.php

What the science tells us

There is strong evidence to show that eating no more than 500g of red meat and cutting out processed meat can reduce our risk of bowel cancer (also known as colorectal cancer), the third most common cancer in the UK.

Red meat

Research shows that people who consume more red and processed meat tend to have higher rates of bowel cancer.

The findings strongly suggest that consuming more than about 500g (cooked weight) of red meat a week raises the risk of the disease.

Processed meat

The scientific evidence linking processed meat and bowel cancer shows that the best amount to eat is none at all.

Why do red and processed meat increase cancer risk?


They contain a red-coloured compound called haem, which has been shown to damage the lining of the colon
Red meat can also stimulate production in the gut of cancer-causing substances called N-nitroso compounds, which can damage DNA in cells.
Processed meat may produce higher levels of N-nitroso compounds than fresh red meat. This may be why the evidence linking it to cancer risk is stronger.

[Ivor the Engineer]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19350627?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

The impact of dietary and lifestyle risk factors on risk of colorectal cancer: a quantitative overview of the epidemiological evidence.

Colorectal cancer is a major cause of cancer mortality and is considered to be largely attributable to inappropriate lifestyle and behavior patterns. The purpose of this review was to undertake a comparison of the strength of the associations between known and putative risk factors for colorectal cancer by conducting 10 independent meta-analyses of prospective cohort studies. Studies published between 1966 and January 2008 were identified through EMBASE and MEDLINE, using a combined text word and MESH heading search strategy. Studies were eligible if they reported estimates of the relative risk for colorectal cancer with any of the following: alcohol, smoking, diabetes, physical activity, meat, fish, poultry, fruits and vegetables. Studies were excluded if the estimates were not adjusted at least for age. Overall, data from 103 cohort studies were included. The risk of colorectal cancer was significantly associated with alcohol: individuals consuming the most alcohol had 60% greater risk of colorectal cancer compared with non- or light drinkers (relative risk 1.56, 95% CI 1.42-1.70). Smoking, diabetes, obesity and high meat intakes were each associated with a significant 20% increased risk of colorectal cancer (compared with individuals in the lowest categories for each) with little evidence of between-study heterogeneity or publication bias. Physical activity was protective against colorectal cancer. Public-health strategies that promote modest alcohol consumption, smoking cessation, weight loss, increased physical activity and moderate consumption of red and processed meat are likely to have significant benefits at the population level for reducing the incidence of colorectal cancer.

Has there been a response by the meat industry yet?

[cow_cat]

May I direct your attention here? (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/british-children-now-92%25-ham%2c-says-charity-200908171986/)

;)

[Ivor the Engineer]

May I direct your attention here? (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/british-children-now-92%25-ham%2c-says-charity-200908171986/)

;)

:D

[GlennB]

May I direct your attention here? (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/health/british-children-now-92%25-ham%2c-says-charity-200908171986/)

;)

Brilliant. Check out the Usain Bolt link too.

[The Painter]

Mmmmm, Bacon

Try this recipe;

BACON EXPLOSION!!! (http://www.bbqaddicts.com/blog/recipes/bacon-explosion/)

[casebro]

About 50,000 Americans die of colorectal cancer per year.

Out of four million deaths, that gives a persons odds of 98.75% to NOT die of cr cancer.

Cut out red meat, and the odds improve to 99 percent that you will NOT die from colorectal cancer.

Cut out the red meat, and drop your odds by .25%

Or put it another way, skip the salami and bacon, and you stand a 1:400 chance of not helping anydmathing.

[crisnee]

Here's some interesting info. I don't think I'm allowed to post a link yet so I've quoted a blog. If you want to read the full article it's on blog.nj.com, Thurman Hart called "Colorectal cancer with relish, please!"

"On the page containing the story of the New Jersey lawsuit, the following blurb is used for a closing:

In March, the National Cancer Institute published a study of more than half a million people showing that red and processed meat intake is associated with a higher risk of dying from cancer and cardiovascular disease.

But the actual study found that the increased risk was only true for people with existing H. pylori infections. In fact:

"All of these associations seemed to be restricted to the H. pylori-infected subjects," the researchers, led by Dr. Carlos A. Gonzalez from the Catalan Institute of Oncology in Barcelona, Spain, wrote. There was no such association seen for gastric cardia cancer, which occurs in the top 2 to 3 centimeters of the stomach. There also was a nonstatistically significant association between total meat intake or processed red meat intake and esophageal adenocarcinoma, the cancer with the most quickly increasing incidence rate in the United States.


Oh, and the incidence of H. pylori infections is slowing, probably due to more sanitary water sources and better hygiene in general.

What can be discovered, if one spends an hour or so on Google, is that every single member of The Cancer Project's Board of Directors and Advisory Panel advocate a completely vegan diet. Undoubtedly, some of this is due to research linking high vegetable intake with several health benefits - and high intake of meats and fatty foods with health detriments. But it is also true that one of the Directors, Neil Barnard, has a long-standing relationship with People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA). He also founded the Physicians' Committee for Responsible Medicine which expands the vegan diet advocacy to also include opposition to the use of animals in medical training or laboratory experiments."


As to whoever said "that sounds very much like Sciatica" referring to an earlier post of mine, I beg to differ, it felt very much like Sciatica but never even hummed a bar, nevermind lifted a barbell.

[patchbunny]

Mmmmm, Bacon

Try this recipe;

BACON EXPLOSION!!! (http://www.bbqaddicts.com/blog/recipes/bacon-explosion/)

We did one of those this 4th of July. We lacked a smoker, so we cooked it on the top rack of the BBQ. It caught fire, and the dripping, burning fat set everything on the lower rack on fire. Fun was had by all.

Sadly, although it tasted very much of bacon and sausage, that was it. There was nothing else remarkable about the flavor.

[tesscaline]

I love, or should I say loved salami, bacon etc. too. However, I no longer eat said, because after many years of enduring an unexplained diffuse but pervasive and continual pain that extended from my waist down my right leg to my right foot, I discovered that it was caused by either the sodium nitrite or nitrate that is found in almost all lunch meats.

I wonder if those preservatives are the suspected culprits concerning colon cancer.
How was this "cause" discovered, exactly?

[yy2bggggs]

Or put it another way, skip the salami and bacon, and you stand a 1:400 chance of not helping anydmathing.
Wait... "or put it another way"? I don't think this follows.

Your figures simply show the reduction of the risk with respect to your being one of the 50,000 of the 4,000,000 who die, by cutting down on red meat. But wouldn't you have to show that there is no benefit to cutting down on red meat in terms of risk of being one of the 3,950,000 other deaths? I didn't see that in your figures.

(Or put it another way... why does it follow that cutting red meat doesn't have other benefits besides reduction of risk of colorectal cancer?)

[Molinaro]

http://www.mlive.com/business/mid-michigan/index.ssf/2009/02/tonys_i75_restaurant_in_birch.html

Been there.. eaten that!

Nothing beats a bacon-lettuce-tomato sandwich when it comes with 1 lb of bacon. :)

[arthwollipot]

Mmmmm, Bacon

Try this recipe;

BACON EXPLOSION!!! (http://www.bbqaddicts.com/blog/recipes/bacon-explosion/)I can feel my arteries hardening just looking at it.

[mumchup]

Nothing beats a bacon-lettuce-tomato sandwich when it comes with 1 lb of bacon. :)

Ah, the world's most perfect sandwich! As for the bacon stuffed sausage, wrapped in bacon; that makes me feel a little queasy just looking at it....

I think I can fit bacon etc. into the diet I've chosen to follow: Eat Food. Not Too Much. Mostly Plants.

[casebro]

Here's some interesting info. I don't think I'm allowed to post a link yet so I've quoted a blog. If you want to read the full article it's on blog.nj.com, Thurman Hart called "Colorectal cancer with relish, please!"


But the actual study found that the increased risk was only true for people with existing H. pylori infections. In fact:

"All of these associations seemed to be restricted to the H. pylori-infected subjects,"



Maybe some day some of these data will actually make it into mainstream knowledge. To wit:

Red meat does NOT cause c-r cancer, Helicobactor Pyloris does.

Obesity does NOT cause early demise, the Diabetes does.

And I predict:

Cholesterol does NOT cause CAD, mast cells do. They also cause Diabetes. The mast cells cause the inflammation found in obese subjects too. And will probably be linked to the H. Pyloris damage to the stomach as well.

[crisnee]

How was this "cause" discovered, exactly? The quote relates to pain "caused," by nitrites/nitrates.

I discovered it by accident. One day I realized that I hadn't had the pain for quite some time (it's odd how you don't realize right away that something "isn't" there--the pain, as opposed to noticing a new pain right away). I started to think about what I'd been doing differently. Eventually I came upon not having eaten processed meats for quite some time.

From there I experimented. I love hard salami, pate and bacon in particular so I ate some for a couple of days, the pain returned, I stopped, the pain stopped. I repeated a similar scenario some time later, same results. I even tried eating just a little to see if I could get away with an occasional snack, but the amount was too small to be worthwhile, so I haven't eaten said ever since and no pain ever since.

Fortunately you can get a few things without nitrites/nitrates. Quality prosciutto, some smoked salmon and a rare pate. I've heard there's frozen bacon available too but haven't been able to find it. If anyone knows where to get it or anything else please let me know.

Chris

[fuelair]

70 grams - that's like 1.5 pounds in american?

[Ziggurat]

70 grams - that's like 1.5 pounds in american?

No, it's about 0.15 pounds.

[Tapio]

So...what about Ivor's liknks y'all? I think they're the closest response yet regarding the OP. Any thoughts?

[Beerina]

About 50,000 Americans die of colorectal cancer per year.

Out of four million deaths, that gives a persons odds of 98.75% to NOT die of cr cancer.

Cut out red meat, and the odds improve to 99 percent that you will NOT die from colorectal cancer.

Cut out the red meat, and drop your odds by .25%

Or put it another way, skip the salami and bacon, and you stand a 1:400 chance of not helping anydmathing.


And there's the numbers. And it assumes 100% of the colorectal cancers are caused by red meat, and by stopping it, your risk drops to 0.

Much better to be concerned about bacon and ham and red meat in general causing your heart to clog and stop. Reminds me of smoking, which is more likely to kill you early due to heart disease than lung cancer. Only 15% of smokers die from lung cancer. And my mom was one of them :(

[McHrozni]

About 50,000 Americans die of colorectal cancer per year.

Out of four million deaths, that gives a persons odds of 98.75% to NOT die of cr cancer.

Cut out red meat, and the odds improve to 99 percent that you will NOT die from colorectal cancer.

Cut out the red meat, and drop your odds by .25%

Or put it another way, skip the salami and bacon, and you stand a 1:400 chance of not helping anydmathing.

Hm. How many cases of colorectal cancer are there per year? Surviving that is obviously possible, but side effects of the treatment are a ***** and ******, ***** *** ***** *********.

Killing you is the least that cancer can do to you.

McHrozni

[tesscaline]

The quote relates to pain "caused," by nitrites/nitrates.

I discovered it by accident. One day I realized that I hadn't had the pain for quite some time (it's odd how you don't realize right away that something "isn't" there--the pain, as opposed to noticing a new pain right away). I started to think about what I'd been doing differently. Eventually I came upon not having eaten processed meats for quite some time.

From there I experimented. I love hard salami, pate and bacon in particular so I ate some for a couple of days, the pain returned, I stopped, the pain stopped. I repeated a similar scenario some time later, same results. I even tried eating just a little to see if I could get away with an occasional snack, but the amount was too small to be worthwhile, so I haven't eaten said ever since and no pain ever since.

Fortunately you can get a few things without nitrites/nitrates. Quality prosciutto, some smoked salmon and a rare pate. I've heard there's frozen bacon available too but haven't been able to find it. If anyone knows where to get it or anything else please let me know.

Chris
Processed meats are not the only source of nitrates and nitrites. They're not even the primary source of them in one's diet. Nitrate occurs in the environment, in air, food (particularly in vegetables and fruits) and water, and is produced endogenously. It is also used as a food additive, mainly as a preservative and anti-microbial agent. It is used in foods such as cheese and cheese products, raw and processed meats, edible casings, processed fish and fish products and spirits and liqueurs.
Here's a table showing you some of the foods have nitrates and nitrites in them naturally, as well as the a bunch of other fun information as to concentrations and percentages of diet globally: http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v50je07.htm#2.1

If nitrates really were your issue, you'd have the problem constantly, just from breathing, drinking water, eating vegetables, fruits, cheese... Eliminating processed meats wouldn't affect very much at all.

I hate to point out that you may be suffering from a bit of confirmation bias in figuring out your problem.

To be sure about it, you could talk to a doctor and have yourself tested for a variety of issues... Including, say, an allergen test to see if you really do have a reaction to nitrates or nitrites.

[rjh01]

Or it could be something else in processed meat.

[casebro]

Or it could be something else in processed meat.


The 'modified food starch' in many hot dogs and crummy sausages triggers my gluten allergy signs, which for me is angina.

[paximperium]

90% Tasty; 100% Deadly

[fuelair]

Mmmmm, Bacon

Try this recipe;

BACON EXPLOSION!!! (http://www.bbqaddicts.com/blog/recipes/bacon-explosion/)

As dog is my witness I shall make one of these in the next nine months. It will use Mayo's Country Sausage (Nashville Vicinity), Rendevous Rub (Memphis) and Dreamland Sauce (Heaven and Tuscaloosa). And be slow smoked in my Big Green Egg.

[dakotajudo]

Processed meats are not the only source of nitrates and nitrites. They're not even the primary source of them in one's diet.
You might not want to lump together nitrates and nitrites.

Nitrates are prevalent in plant leaves; this is where the primary reactions of nitrogen fixation occur. But nitrites are not at very high levels in plant tissue.

Of course, some of the dietary nitrate will be reduced in the GI to nitrite, so a portion of nitrite exposures comes indirectly from nitrate.

Nitrites, on the other hand, are more extensively used in curing meats. It's more reactive, in general. One reaction is with hemoglobin and myoglobin, which helps cured meat retain a deep red color. This also causes methemoglobinemia, where nitrites react with blood hemoglobin - one reason infants should avoid nitrate/nitrite contaminated water (nitrate reduction is inhibited a low and high pH's; infants don't have the same degree of acidity in their stomachs).

It also reacts with organic molecules to form N-nitroso compounds, many of which are considered carcinogenic or toxic (see http://carcin.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/27/7/1497 ). This occurs more rapidly at higher temperatures - so crispy fried bacon can be expected to have more carcinogens than slow-cooked ham. However, the addition of vitamin C to meat cures (or some other such antioxidant) can limit the formation of N-nitroso compounds.

Heam (the non-protein part of hemoglobin) is also linked to N-nitroso formation.

Nitrite has also been linked to migraines, but the mechanism is less clear.


This all, of course, leads to the conclusion that nitrates/nitrites from plant sources are less toxic than nitrates/nitrites from animal sources.

[Thing]

David Colqhoun looked into this:

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=1435

[Paul W]

As far as I have ever been able to work out, longevity is closely related to a careful choice of parents - and, for that matter, grandparents and before.

In my case, though, my continued survival (beyond the age of 4 (ish)) has been due to a careful choice of ovum.

I do get a bit hacked off by those who tell me that eating or not eating this or that will extend my existence on this mortal coil by a few days/weeks/months/years. As Stuart Sutherland pointed out in "Irrationality" (search Amazon), those last few d/w/m/y are likely to be dominated by senility anyway. And having watched several elderly relatives go down that route, I'm not sure I want to as well.

[crisnee]

Processed meats are not the only source of nitrates and nitrites. They're not even the primary source of them in one's diet.
Here's a table showing you some of the foods have nitrates and nitrites in them naturally, as well as the a bunch of other fun information as to concentrations and percentages of diet globally:

If nitrates really were your issue, you'd have the problem constantly, just from breathing, drinking water, eating vegetables, fruits, cheese... Eliminating processed meats wouldn't affect very much at all.

I hate to point out that you may be suffering from a bit of confirmation bias in figuring out your problem.

To be sure about it, you could talk to a doctor and have yourself tested for a variety of issues... Including, say, an allergen test to see if you really do have a reaction to nitrates or nitrites.

Thanks, I needed a little patronizing and bubble bursting.

More careful research would have revealed that nitrites are not at all as prevalent in natural edibles as you claim and certainly not in the same quantities as in cured meats. You might also consider that people have "out of the norm" reactions to all sorts of things. I for instance have very strange reactions to a couple of common drugs. I've also had severe migraines all my life, which after 30 years of sleuthing and having to listen to endless advice I related to fat intake (a pretty much unheard of cause at the time).

Having said that, I can't know for sure that either the nitrates or nitrites are the problem (maybe it's nitrites in combination with cured...), or there might be some other common substance in cured meats and the like that I'm not aware of. However I can be almost 100% positive that I'm not "suffering from a bit of confirmation bias."

I won't go into the details as I don't want to waste my time trying to convince you, however I will say, that my preferred outcome would have been that cured meats were not the problem.

And one more thing. What exactly would be the point of bursting my bubble of bias? So that I could feel the pain again? Or maybe you just want me to be able to enjoy that Genoa salami.

It doesn't help anyone to debunk something without taking great care. Skepticism is one thing, but writing a scientific sounding little piece is another.

[tesscaline]

Thanks, I needed a little patronizing and bubble bursting.

More careful research would have revealed that nitrites are not at all as prevalent in natural edibles as you claim and certainly not in the same quantities as in cured meats. You might also consider that people have "out of the norm" reactions to all sorts of things. I for instance have very strange reactions to a couple of common drugs. I've also had severe migraines all my life, which after 30 years of sleuthing and having to listen to endless advice I related to fat intake (a pretty much unheard of cause at the time).Actually, no. More careful research would not have shown that at all.
It has been estimated that 10 percent of the human exposure to nitrite in the digestive tract comes from cured meats and 90 percent comes from vegetables and other sources. Nitrates can be reduced to nitrites by certain microorganisms present in foods and in the gastrointestinal tract.

Having said that, I can't know for sure that either the nitrates or nitrites are the problem (maybe it's nitrites in combination with cured...), or there might be some other common substance in cured meats and the like that I'm not aware of. However I can be almost 100% positive that I'm not "suffering from a bit of confirmation bias."

I won't go into the details as I don't want to waste my time trying to convince you, however I will say, that my preferred outcome would have been that cured meats were not the problem.So, you had someone perform a double blinded test on you, complete with a control group and everything? I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm really not. But if you go into a situation thinking that X is the cause of a problem, and then you knowingly focus on X as that cause without taking other things into account (as your description of how you came upon the cause says you did), that's a prime situation for confirmation bias.

And one more thing. What exactly would be the point of bursting my bubble of bias? So that I could feel the pain again? Or maybe you just want me to be able to enjoy that Genoa salami.

It doesn't help anyone to debunk something without taking great care. Skepticism is one thing, but writing a scientific sounding little piece is another.I'm not actually trying to "debunk" anything. I don't really like that word anyway -- there's something about it that rubs me the wrong way. However, this is a board for critical thinking, right? So when someone says to me that eating X causes a problem for them, even though I know that X is present in a LOT more than just the things they say they've cut out of their diet to "cure" their situation, I get suspicious. It's a bit of an extraordinary claim. It requires a bit of extraordinary evidence to support. You didn't give any extraordinary evidence, and it doesn't look like you've even attempted to get any for your self (even if you are unwilling to share it).

The point is getting to the truth. Getting the real answer. Getting an actual treatment, perhaps even a cure. And yes, perhaps getting things so that you could enjoy some Soppresatta again. What if your problem wasn't caused by the nitrites in cured meat at all, and was instead caused by a certain type of protein, or other ingredient? What if the pain is actually a sign of something else all together, like an unusual presentation of gout? Or a precursor to something much more serious, and the pain remissions just happened at the same time as your testing by coincidence?

And what if someone sees your testimonial on this forum about what problem "nitrates/nitrites" cause for you? If they're then convinced that "the evil toxins" are causing their medical issue and, instead of seeking out medical treatment, just decide to stop eating bacon and be done with it?

See, you think that people shouldn't "debunk" things without "taking great care". I think, on the other hand, that people shouldn't go claiming things without "taking great care".

And if you don't want people to examine your statements and claims, don't go posting them on a board dedicated to critical thinking. Really. And yes, I fully expect people to try to tear my arguments to shreds here -- It's one of the things I like about this forum, and imo it helps keep us all honest.

[Darat]

David Colqhoun looked into this:

http://www.dcscience.net/?p=1435

Thanks for that link - very interesting article.

[crisnee]

Actually, no. More careful research would not have shown that at all.
You're missing the point by focusing solely on the ingredient. As I said I can't point to nitrites/nitrates in a vacuum, or in leafy vegetables as the culprit. However nitrite in combination with meat is another thing which you keep forgetting to mention. (The following is from a post by Dakotajudo in this thread)
>>It (nitrite) also reacts with organic molecules to form N-nitroso compounds, many of which are considered carcinogenic or toxic. This occurs more rapidly at higher temperatures - so crispy fried bacon can be expected to have more carcinogens than slow-cooked ham. However, the addition of vitamin C to meat cures (or some other such antioxidant) can limit the formation of N-nitroso compounds.

Heam (the non-protein part of hemoglobin) is also linked to N-nitroso formation.

Nitrite has also been linked to migraines, but the mechanism is less clear., <<

So, you had someone perform a double blinded test on you, complete with a control group and everything? I'm not trying to be rude here. I'm really not. But if you go into a situation thinking that X is the cause of a problem, and then you knowingly focus on X as that cause without taking other things into account (as your description of how you came upon the cause says you did), that's a prime situation for confirmation bias.

I did not go into this situation thinking this was the cause. As a matter of fact I backed into it, so to speak. I had for many years searched for a clue as to the cause, and had been diagnosed with fibro-myalgia by a couple of doctors. As I said I can't be absolutely sure that cured meats with nitrites are the cause but you tell me what you're conclusion would be if you had a condition for 15-20 years that completely disappeared when you didn't eat cured meats with nitrites, reappeared, disappeared, reappeared etc as you tested. I've tried nitrite meats several times (by the way the pain does not appear right away). And when I did the tests I did control things pretty well, i.e. ate things and did things that were not causing me problems when I didn't eat the cured meats. I also have eaten cured meats with no nitrites, just to see if it was something else in the curing that was causing the problem.

I'm not actually trying to "debunk" anything. I don't really like that word anyway -- there's something about it that rubs me the wrong way. However, this is a board for critical thinking, right? So when someone says to me that eating X causes a problem for them, even though I know that X is present in a LOT more than just the things they say they've cut out of their diet to "cure" their situation, I get suspicious. It's a bit of an extraordinary claim. It requires a bit of extraordinary evidence to support. You didn't give any extraordinary evidence, and it doesn't look like you've even attempted to get any for your self (even if you are unwilling to share it).

First off, I wasn't making a claim, it's not like I'm selling something. Nor was I trying to prove anything. I just found it interesting and thought if anyone else had a similar problem it was something they could try. It's not likely to harm anyone, but it could do someone a lot of good.

Once more, it's not present in a LOT of things in combination with cured meat. Lots of combinations of things are lethal that are innocent enough on their own.

The point is getting to the truth. Getting the real answer. Getting an actual treatment, perhaps even a cure. And yes, perhaps getting things so that you could enjoy some Soppresatta again. What if your problem wasn't caused by the nitrites in cured meat at all, and was instead caused by a certain type of protein, or other ingredient? What if the pain is actually a sign of something else all together, like an unusual presentation of gout? Or a precursor to something much more serious, and the pain remissions just happened at the same time as your testing by coincidence?

Those what ifs are good questions in many cases, but they don't apply here. I have been pain free for many years except the few times when I've tried the meats again. And I did have reasonable testing done, anything that you're average doctor would try. But mostly those docs just threw their hands up, because they had no idea.

And what if someone sees your testimonial on this forum about what problem "nitrates/nitrites" cause for you? If they're then convinced that "the evil toxins" are causing their medical issue and, instead of seeking out medical treatment, just decide to stop eating bacon and be done with it?

Exactly. If they determine to their satisfaction that the "evil toxins," are causing their pain and they rid themselves of it, good for them. However, just for your edification, don't assume. I don't believe in evil anything, nor that natural is necessarily good and synthetic bad.

Let me put it to you this way, if the test for a medical issue is eating bacon or not, you're really in the nether reaches. I can just see the headlines "Salami Saves Health Food Freaks Bacon."

See, you think that people shouldn't "debunk" things without "taking great care". I think, on the other hand, that people shouldn't go claiming things without "taking great care".

Neither debunk nor claims make without great care, particularly if you come from a position of authority. But once again, I'm not claiming, I'm noting. The difference is subtle but there is a difference. As I said in my first response to you, I can't say for certain....

And if you don't want people to examine your statements and claims, don't go posting them on a board dedicated to critical thinking. Really. And yes, I fully expect people to try to tear my arguments to shreds here -- It's one of the things I like about this forum, and imo it helps keep us all honest.

I don't mind people examining my claims, in fact I hope they do. If you'd looked at my note a little more closely you'd have noticed that it was not in the form of a claim. It was anecdotal. The tone wasn't "here's the truth about x." But I think you're eager to challenge so you don't distinguish subtle differences.

Having said all that, your approach is simplistic. You endeavor to disprove something by looking at the issue from only one direction, take some simple facts and don't look beyond their surface, don't question me about my background or motivation all for the very weak reason that by avoiding bacon I might miss out on a cure for some awful disease.

The truth must out, not! There is no truth.