anyone come across this before? http://www.anatomytrains.com/

[skidrash]

don't want to waste my time if it's complete woo woo.

they use the words "structural integration" there so it sounds like it has a little bit of Rolfing which wouldn't be bad, but then there's "meridians"

the word meridians may be just marketing to get the acupuncture crowd, this could really be an offshoot of acupuncture dressed up with modern anatomy charts.

Also, is there a standard skeptical look at "osteopathy" (is that the right term? ). Not just "it's woo woo", but perhaps links to confirming / disproving studies?

[gerdbonk]

They explain who they are here: Kinesis, Inc (http://www.anatomytrains.com/kinesis)

In an increasingly somatically alienated world, in a world where the surfaces, interfaces, and social constructs are ever more man-made, orthogonal, conceptual, sedentary, voyeuristic, and artificial, the whispered pleas of the body are increasingly drowned out by the squawkings of the collective ‘monkey mind.’ Kinesis celebrates the wisdom of the body moving. Kinesis seeks answers to the living question: How do we balance and honor the essentially ‘neolithic’ soft animal of our body in an excitingly electronic, speed-of-light, ‘Spaceship Earth’ world? Our body is our most proximate and valuable tool – how can we best employ it in this world that is now much of our own making?

Kinesis is dedicated to providing opportunities for such deeper exploration of the inherent somatic wisdom that is our birthright, and avenues for both therapeutic and educational processes to support the social trend back toward reliance on inner feeling.

For more on Somatics, look up Thomas Hanna (http://www.somaticsed.com/). Hint: he wasn't a doctor, he was a philosopher.


Specifically, it appears they are marketing a concept of "body patterns" to any and all complementary therapy practitioners, woo or not, including accupuncturists, chiropractors, physical therapists, etc.

[Physiotherapist]

Yes, it is Rolfing and the original name for Rolfing was Structural Integration, however, because Ida Rolf set up the Rolf Institute, people who trained there called it Rolfing.

Tom Myers who started Kinesis inc. is a certified advanced Rolfer who is still registered with the Rolf Institute.

His book is entitled Anatomy Trains Myofascial Meridians, but this is not actually referring to meridians as we know them from acupuncture. It is his specific way of assessing posture via different fascial planes, rather than the plumb line technique that most other SI practitioners use.

There is a lot of research available on fascia and there is also the fascial research congress.

Don't dismiss is just because meridians appears in the title.

[gerdbonk]

The acupuncture meridians and the Anatomy Trains Myofascial Meridians have much in common. Although the Anatomy Trains were built on Western anatomy foundations, the accompanying chart will show some of the overlap. Small wonder, we are all looking at the same body, and chi is said to travel along the fascial planes.

http://www.anatomytrains.com/at/app/manual/acupuncture

[Physiotherapist]

http://www.anatomytrains.com/at/app/manual/acupuncture


Okay, but the system in itself, which is ultimately looking at the lines of tension in the fascia from a postural perspective does not need to include the meridians at all - they are not an integral part of the concept.

[JJM]

... There is a lot of research available on fascia and there is also the fascial research congress. ...Are you talking about the Harvard quackfest? Is there any reliable information on therapies involving fascia?

[Physiotherapist]

Are you talking about the Harvard quackfest? Is there any reliable information on therapies involving fascia?


Yes there is reliable evidence available on fascia and it is being researched all the time. Tom Myers has done fascial dissections and also a guy named Gill Hedley - research on fascia is ongoing.

There was the fascial congress in Harvard last year, but there is also a fascial research congress being held in Amsterdam.

[drzeus99]

don't want to waste my time if it's complete woo woo.

they use the words "structural integration" there so it sounds like it has a little bit of Rolfing which wouldn't be bad, but then there's "meridians"

the word meridians may be just marketing to get the acupuncture crowd, this could really be an offshoot of acupuncture dressed up with modern anatomy charts.

Also, is there a standard skeptical look at "osteopathy" (is that the right term? ). Not just "it's woo woo", but perhaps links to confirming / disproving studies?


Welcome aboard, skidrash.

Pull up a chair, partake in the fun, and you'll get to meet a pretty cool collection of people that actually THINK rationally with their minds, rather than act as gullible and naive sheep that think thinking for themselves is bad, so they prefer to have others think for them, tell them how to think, and tell them what to believe and what not to believe...and NEVER question things they tell them.

Of course, you'll find a few people who belong to that group here too. It can make for some interesting fun "debates". But at least rest assured in knowing that there are some of the brightest, most intelligent minds here who let their rational minds, common sense, and critical thinking skills formulate their opinions. But it wouldn't be fun unless we had the fringe group here, who tend to believe anything they read, hear or are told, and blindly follow along like the rest of the sheep without ever questioning the facts...preferring to have *faith* in what they believe, and come across as....well...you'll see.

WELCOME !!

[JJM]

Yes there is reliable evidence available on fascia and it is being researched all the time. Tom Myers has done fascial dissections and also a guy named Gill Hedley - research on fascia is ongoing.

There was the fascial congress in Harvard last year, but there is also a fascial research congress being held in Amsterdam.The Harvard fascial congress was a conference of idiots. Where is your reliable evidence? ("Names" are not references.)

[gerdbonk]

Yes there is reliable evidence available on fascia and it is being researched all the time. Tom Myers has done fascial dissections and also a guy named Gill Hedley - research on fascia is ongoing.


Um, Tom Myers is the inventor of Anatomy Trains, and Gil Hedley is his former student. It would be a strain to describe their work as objective.

They seem to be most interested in dissecting fascia, declaring "look, it's fascia!", then assigning properties or functions to it based on patterns they perceive in it. Neither is a medical, biological, or even kinesiology research professional. One has a degree in Design, the other in Divinity. They each found their way into the field of massage.

Tom Meyers' expertise: (http://www.anatomytrains.com/explore/tom-myers)

Well, if you start with medical school anatomy, you're going to have medical school conclusions. And most people did not get into this profession because they wanted to be a lower-class doctor. They got into this because they wanted to be a real wholistic healer. If we're going to have a wholistic profession, we're going to have to have wholistic anatomy studies to go with that profession.

...One of the hallmarks of structural integration is, where you think it is, it ain't. Some small thing in her neck might be affecting how her pelvis moves.


Gil Hedley's CV: (http://www.gilhedley.com/ghabout.php)

I spent a large chunk of this particular life in formal school situations, studying religion and ethics. I went to Duke as an undergrad, and then to the Divinity School of the University of Chicago for an MA in the study of religion and a Ph.D. in Theological and Philosophical Ethics. (I wrote my dissertation on marriage ethics in the Catholic Church.) While in Chicago, I studied Tai Chi, which, among many other things, helped me to re-conceive my body.

With the path of body exploration opened, I went to the Rolf Institute ... Then ... I spent 4 years studying whole person healing and psychodynamics at the IM School of Healing Arts. During that time, I began teaching anatomy at the healing school, and teaching anatomy in the dissection lab as well.

[Physiotherapist]

The Harvard fascial congress was a conference of idiots. Where is your reliable evidence? ("Names" are not references.)


Okay, so come on then, what qualifications do you have that sets you so much apart that you can stand there and proclaim others to be idiots?

[Physiotherapist]

I know very well what the backgrounds of both Tom Myers and Gil Hedley are. However there are others who have done lots of research into the nature of fascia.

Robert Schleipp has done lots of research into fascia that is posted on his website at http://www.somatics.de

[paximperium]

Okay, so come on then, what qualifications do you have that sets you so much apart that you can stand there and proclaim others to be idiots?
So that's a "no" on the references and evidence then?

[paximperium]

I know very well what the backgrounds of both Tom Myers and Gil Hedley are. However there are others who have done lots of research into the nature of fascia.

Robert Schleipp has done lots of research into fascia that is posted on his website at http://www.somatics.de
So anything published in any relevant journals?

[Physiotherapist]

So that's a "no" on the references and evidence then?


No, there is evidence and there are references on the nature of fascia, but I was just questioning what superior qualification JJM holds to be able to come here and call others idiots?

Did they not teach you about fascia in medical school or were you asleep in that class?

[paximperium]

No, there is evidence and there are references on the nature of fascia, but I was just questioning what superior qualification JJM holds to be able to come here and call others idiots?Fascia exist...so? Fascia has function...so?
What we have are a bunch of folks who believe that fascia seems to be root multiple disease based on magic thinking and no evidence on their part and who are selling a product. Just like Chiroquacks, just like any other woo-mongerers with their "magic bullet" pseudo-medicine.

BTW: What has qualifications got to do with idiocy? You do love your Argument from "Authority" don't you?

Did they not teach you about fascia in medical school or were you asleep in that class?And what is the relevance of this ad hominem or will your "facts" not stand on its own?

[Physiotherapist]

This is not the same as chiropractors. They do not believe that fascia is responsible for multiple diseases based on magic thinking - it is based on fact.

[paximperium]

This is not the same as chiropractors. They do not believe that fascia is responsible for multiple diseases based on magic thinking - it is based on fact.
What "fact"?

[Physiotherapist]

http://www.somatics.de/FascialPlasticity/schleip2003.pdf

http://www.rolf.org/about/research.htm

http://www.jeffreymaitland.com/rolf/rolf_3_studies.html

The Fascia Anatomy, Dysfunction and Treatment by Serge Paoletti

[paximperium]

Oh great. An argument by data dump. Instead of presenting the "best" evidence, they vomit their data all over the place.
It's going to be a whole lot of fun separating "rolfing-nonsense" from plain old massage.
Whatever, I'm actually going to read these and will be back with a review.

[gerdbonk]

I know very well what the backgrounds of both Tom Myers and Gil Hedley are. However there are others who have done lots of research into the nature of fascia.

Robert Schleipp has done lots of research into fascia that is posted on his website at http://www.somatics.de


There is the usual wooery in much of Schleipp's text ("I believe I can pick up somebody's 'kinetic melody' (some people call it inner dance or life energy)"), however he, for one (and he mentions others), seems to be acknowledging the flaws in prior beliefs about the importance of fascia and acknowledges that maybe practitioners aren't as well educated as they could be about the neuromuscular system.

I was surprised by his "shock" at learning that a body actually relaxes under anesthesia (body stiffness isn't contained with fascia -- turn off the brain, turn off muscle tension), something that would be obvious to anyone with medical training. His discovery of this after years of teaching "somatics" and fascia-focused body manipulation reflects the major problem with theories developed by practitioners with incomplete knowledge of the structure and function of the human body. The "holistic" approach is often put forth by those with the least understanding of the whole (or with a vision of the whole that misses a whole lot of significant details).

Below, in perhaps a moment of clarity in 1991, he reveals he might not be your best choice to provide evidence for fascial-based "structural integration":

TALKING TO FASCIA - CHANGING THE BRAIN, by Robert Schleip (http://www.somatics.de/Talking%20to%20Fascia.htm)

The question to ask now is: IS IT POSSIBLE THAT MOST OF THE STRUCTURALLY IMPORTANT RESTRICTIONS IN OUR CLIENT'S BODIES ARE JUST CAUSED BY A HIGH MUSCLE TONUS as determined by a high firing rate from the central nervous system? What about the clients who have chronically forward displaced shoulders...Or clients with a chronically anterior tilted pelvis? Would that change too as soon as their brain's influence is shut off? That would mean that fascial restrictions of normal body alignment would be rare and the Trager and Feldenkrais practitioner's opinion would be right, that "it's all in the brain". I now have some serious questions on the importance of fascia in normal vs. random body structure.

IF it is the case that most of the structurally important restrictions are only determined by a high firing rate from the central nervous system to the motor end plates, this would have some important consequences for our work. Not only theoretically but also practically. ...applying pressure to fascial sheets would still be a most effective tool to lower high muscle tonus. But it would be most useful for us to learn more about the nervous system's role in body alignment and to include that in our thinking, our teaching, and out practice. For example: we Anatomy Instructors would have to go back to the books and study the neuromuscular system further, and then include that in our lead-in classes and pre-trainings.

[Aepervius]

Usually when I hear about such technic my first step is to go to wiki :
"A 2004 review of Rolfing found that "there is no evidence-based literature to support Rolfing in any specific disease group"
Jones, T.A. (2004), "Rolfing", Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation Clinics of North America 15 (4): 799–809, doi:10.1016/j.pmr.2004.03.008

(normally I should check the reference but I can't be bothered here as I have lost easy access to scientific littterature. Damn that stuff should be open to ALL and electronic)

In late 2007, the first "Fascia Research Congress" was held, and it attracted plenty of attention from serious researchers and clinicians

Please note the contrast : there is no ACTUAL evidence, but it attracts serious researcher and clinicians. The same way magnetism (for body healing) probably attracted serious researcher and clinician a long time ago, and has got about as much evidence TODAY hint : none).

The fact still seem that despite attraction there is no beef (evidence).

[Physiotherapist]

Rolfing was never intended for the treatment of any specific disease group.

There is published research, which is the same as evidence into the nature of fascia and fascial plasticity as in the articles by Robert Schleip - who has spent a lot of his life undertaking research into the nature of fascia.

[Physiotherapist]

Oh great. An argument by data dump. Instead of presenting the "best" evidence, they vomit their data all over the place.
It's going to be a whole lot of fun separating "rolfing-nonsense" from plain old massage.
Whatever, I'm actually going to read these and will be back with a review.


Rolfing is not nonsense at all and it goes deeper than ordinary massage - most therapeutic massage is just to help you feel good and does not change anything, unless you go for Sports and Remedial massage which then does start to change things because it uses different techniques.

Tom Myers has devoted his whole life to the practice of Rolfing having taught anatomy at the Rolf Institute. He has studied with Buckminster Fuller etc. and has collaborated with some of the sharpest minds around to undertake his own research into Rolfing and the nature of fascia.

As a Physical Therapist I do not practice nonsense.