Thinking of Enlisting in the USA Military? Read this first.

[thaiboxerken]

While the military has good incentives to join, such as health care and education, what you may not know is simply in the contracts you'll have to sign. If you want to join, make sure you know what's in the contract, it could cost you your life if you don't.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/recruiter4.htm

Promises. I don't care what your recruiter promised you, if it's not in the enlistment contract, or in an annex to the contract, it's not a promise.

In fact, the bottom of the very first page of the enlistment contract contains the following clause:
The agreements in this section and attached annex(es) are all the promises made to me by the Government. ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS PROMISED ME IS NOT VALID AND WILL NOT BE HONORED.

Enlistment Periods. Thought you were enlisting for four years? Think again. It may surprise you to learn that ALL non-prior service enlistments in the United States Military incurs a total eight year service obligation. Yep. When you sign that enlistment contract, you are obligating yourself to the military for a total of eight years. Whatever time is not spent on active duty, or in the active Guard/Reserves (if you enlisted in the Guard/Reserves) must be spent in the inactive reserves.

Here's the second thing -- the military may not let you out at the end of your active duty tour. Under a program called "Stop Loss," the military is allowed to prevent you from separating, during times of conflict, if they need your particular warm body.

[KoihimeNakamura]

. this is new.. how?

[Ranb]

Back in the early 90's when the first gulf war was gearing up, lots of enlisted and some officers (retired medical if I recall) were called back to active duty. I could not believe the whining I heard from those who had recently left active duty but were now being called back. WTF, can't they read?

Ranb

[UnrepentantSinner]

I've seen this before. It was a scene in Private Benjamin.
ma_Y6dhAdVk

[Sword_Of_Truth]

That's nothing. I hear if you sign up, they may even send you into a war zone where people can die.

[Safe-Keeper]

But that can only happen to Everyone But Me, right?

[funk de fino]

Thinking of signing any contract. Well, read it first.

What a hoot of an OP.

[Eddie Dane]

Thinking of signing any contract. Well, read it first.

What a hoot of an OP.

I disagree.

Some of the people signing up are very young and inexperienced.
The recruiter gave them a wonderful story and the expect that story to correspond with the contract.

I'm sure you've noticed that young people can be stupid and take rash decisions?

[Twiler]

What's the general perception of the US army where each of you is?

[UnrepentantSinner]

What's the general perception of the US army where each of you is?

Pretty darn good here in Dallas.

[Quad4_72]

What's the general perception of the US army where each of you is?

The perception is awesome! Of course I am in the Army and am stationed on an Army base so I don't know if my experience really counts:p

[foxholeatheist]

While the military has good incentives to join, such as health care and education, what you may not know is simply in the contracts you'll have to sign. If you want to join, make sure you know what's in the contract, it could cost you your life if you don't.

http://usmilitary.about.com/cs/joiningup/a/recruiter4.htm

Promises. I don't care what your recruiter promised you, if it's not in the enlistment contract, or in an annex to the contract, it's not a promise.

In fact, the bottom of the very first page of the enlistment contract contains the following clause:
The agreements in this section and attached annex(es) are all the promises made to me by the Government. ANYTHING ELSE ANYONE HAS PROMISED ME IS NOT VALID AND WILL NOT BE HONORED.

Enlistment Periods. Thought you were enlisting for four years? Think again. It may surprise you to learn that ALL non-prior service enlistments in the United States Military incurs a total eight year service obligation. Yep. When you sign that enlistment contract, you are obligating yourself to the military for a total of eight years. Whatever time is not spent on active duty, or in the active Guard/Reserves (if you enlisted in the Guard/Reserves) must be spent in the inactive reserves.

Here's the second thing -- the military may not let you out at the end of your active duty tour. Under a program called "Stop Loss," the military is allowed to prevent you from separating, during times of conflict, if they need your particular warm body.

It's made pretty clear that you will be in IRR for 8 years no matter how short your active enlistment is. Hell, even the National Guard gets deployed, in fact a unit of the Guard is replacing us. It is very rare that folks get activated in the IRR but it has happened. If you have extenuating circumstances you can delay or even cancel your regular service.

Stop Loss can suck but it's being changed. For instance I will be Stop Loss when it comes time for my unit's next deployment in 2011, depending on my re-enlistment. But then again, you signed the contract for 8 years. If you were active for 8 and then your ETS was 6 months before Zulu then you won't be Stop Lossed.

I doubt it will cost your life but that's a whole other topic. Besides, I'm young and invincible.

Thinking of joining the Military? Let me know.

Oh and around here the general opinion of the Army is rather low.

[LTC8K6]

That's the way it was when I signed up in 1990...active plus IRR was 8 years and that was what you had to serve.

It used to be 6 years way back.

[Checkmite]

I disagree.

Some of the people signing up are very young and inexperienced.
The recruiter gave them a wonderful story and the expect that story to correspond with the contract.

I'm sure you've noticed that young people can be stupid and take rash decisions?

And how many of these young, inexperienced, stupid people are here on this forum?

[paiute]

This is not new. Look up the ASTP program the US tried in WW2.

[aggle-rithm]

That's nothing. I hear if you sign up, they may even send you into a war zone where people can die.

There's also a high danger of being crushed to death under a Coke machine one is shaking to get the product to dispense.

[aggle-rithm]

This is not new. Look up the ASTP program the US tried in WW2.

My dad was in that program. Not only was he shuttled unceremoniously from the classroom to the battlefield, he was also told, years later when the Korean War started, that he would be subject to re-enlistment at any time. Fortunately, his allergies kept him out of that war.

[aggle-rithm]

What's the general perception of the US army where each of you is?

Grammar Nazi.

The proper usage is "where each of you is at."

[aggle-rithm]

Oops, I ended a sentence with a proposition! That should be:

"At where each of you is."

[Starthinker]

Sounds like somebody watched Private Benjamin.

BTW, I was proud to serve. When it was 2 am and there was freezing rain putting a coat of ice on our uniforms and we've been stacking bombs for the last 14 hours, I was the one motivating the crew for one more load of missiles, for one more MK 82 on the skids, for our friends and families back home sleeping warmly in their beds, for the country we know and love, for the flag that awes and inspires around the globe. And every night when they played that anthem and the whole base would pause, including wives and husbands and children, you could actually feel the pride and respect we all had for one another, for our country, and for our privilege to serve. I regret nothing and if called upon I would gladly do it again.

[RenaissanceBiker]

I read the contract and knew what I was getting into. I held up my end of it and Uncle Sam held up his. Like my brothers, father, and grandfather I served with pride. If you are too soft or weak don't do it. Don't complain that you would serve if only it wasn't so hard. If you have something else going on in your life and you don't have time to serve, then just go about your business. Don't complain about your own inability to make a lengthy commitment that others regularly make. If you have regrets about something you could have done but didn't, keep them to yourself.

[Sabrina]

Military service is not slavery; it is a choice. I've proudly served for the past seven and a half years and, assuming I don't get medically discharged for my back issues, will continue to do so for at least the full twenty. I'm currently in the reserves. I signed a contract with the military saying they would send me to college and then I'd owe them eight years. I'm coming up on the end of that contract and choosing to still serve if I can. Granted, I was going through ROTC and was never enlisted, but the point still stands, whether you're a commissioned officer or a lower enlisted soldier; it is still YOUR CHOICE to serve. No one coerced you into signing that contract, and the fact that you neglected to read the fine print is on you, not the US Military. That's not to say there aren't recruiters out there who may stretch the truth in order to make their quotas; I'm sure there's more than one. But putting the blame on the entire system because of what one person did is, if you'll pardon the somewhat harsh language, stupid beyond belief. If you had just bothered to do your own research prior to signing the darn thing, you wouldn't be in the situation you're railing against.

Also, I might point out that it is actually fairly easy to get out of military duty if you simply research the appropriate regulations relating to your case. Military regulations are REQUIRED to be obeyed; they aren't an option, so if you find a loophole that gets you out of your service, bully for you. There are other options; conscientous objection is still practiced as far as I know, or you could go the illegal route and break one of the UCMJ articles if you're willing to have the stigma of a BCD on you for the remainder of your life. My point is, there are always options; you however, clearly did not look for them.

[funk de fino]

I disagree.

Some of the people signing up are very young and inexperienced.
The recruiter gave them a wonderful story and the expect that story to correspond with the contract.

I'm sure you've noticed that young people can be stupid and take rash decisions?

A lot sign up regardless of what the recruiter says. My recruiter actually gave me better options that I would have known about and let me sign up for less than he could have.

I believe now the poor youngsters in the UK have an 18 year reserve. Mine was 6 and I was fully aware of it. This seems to be an anti army rant and a bears **** in the woods OP.

[foxholeatheist]

And how many of these young, inexperienced, stupid people are here on this forum?

None. I'm faking it.

And Sabrina is absolutely correct. The Military is not slavery: It's indentured servitude!

[thaiboxerken]

It's made pretty clear that you will be in IRR for 8 years no matter how short your active enlistment is.

Only if you read the contract. Most enlisted I served with didn't know about it until stop-loss and war rumors started to come up.

Recruiters like to make up stories and downplay much of this.

[Eddie Dane]

And how many of these young, inexperienced, stupid people are here on this forum?

You're right.
We need to move this to the conspiracy subforum.

[Vorticity]

Back in the early 90's when the first gulf war was gearing up, lots of enlisted and some officers (retired medical if I recall) were called back to active duty.

[somewhat off-topic]

I remember during the first Gulf War, there were some news reports (probably incorrect, but that's beside the point) that some formerly enlisted Army personnel were called back to active duty. Not Reserve people, but people who had for several years had no official connection with the US military. The story was that there was some little-used clause in their original contracts which allowed them to be called back to active duty at any time for the rest of their lives.

Somehow this caught the attention of my father, who was in his mid-forties at the time, and who had served in the Army in Vietnam in 1966-68. He began weaving elaborate fantasies under which the war wasn't going so well, there were a lot of unexpected casualties, and they began activating this clause for people who had served in the 80s... and then the 70s... and then finally they'd get to him. He concocted long and entertaining stories of his middle-aged self, paunch and all, huffing and puffing as he tried to keep up with 18-year-old squad-mates sprinting through the desert at high noon. He imagined himself bumbling onto the wrong side of the battlefield and mistakenly trying to buy weed from enemy soldiers. He recited with relish the tale of getting court-martialed for lecturing the 20-year-old sergeant (naturally he was a buck private in these stories): "You know, in my day Lyndon Johnson was president, the bastard. We didn't have these 'smart bombs' or 'satellite guidance systems', no. We'd ride on the backs of A-1 Skyraiders like horses, flinging bombs down at the jungle canopy below with our bare hands..."

Good times.

[King of the Americas]

Sounds like somebody watched Private Benjamin.

BTW, I was proud to serve. When it was 2 am and there was freezing rain putting a coat of ice on our uniforms and we've been stacking bombs for the last 14 hours, I was the one motivating the crew for one more load of missiles, for one more MK 82 on the skids, for our friends and families back home sleeping warmly in their beds, for the country we know and love, for the flag that awes and inspires around the globe. And every night when they played that anthem and the whole base would pause, including wives and husbands and children, you could actually feel the pride and respect we all had for one another, for our country, and for our privilege to serve. I regret nothing and if called upon I would gladly do it again.

Thank you for you service...

I must say that this is the attitude toward service that I've witnessed the most.

Sure there are whinny bitches here and there that would love to be kicked out or get a medical discharge, but they are, or at least in those whom I've encountered, the extreme minority.

The kind of attitude you had/have reminds me of a Marine by the name of "Rodney Vogel".

He was a man anyone would graciously go to war with, perfectly willing to lay his safety on the line to serve another. He had a unique ability to never quit, complain, or hold the team back, even when he was utterly and completely exhausted or even seriously injured.

I can't think of anyone who I'd trust my life and freedom to, more easily.

THANKS to ALL of you, who deem military service a "privilege".

[Nursefoxfire]

I watched Generation Kill (and read the RS article upon which the book, and later the series was based).

Now I know that was a reenactment, as it were, but I don't think any of the young kids represented in that show had the silly notion that enlisting was going to be a cakewalk, and that they'd be out in a couple of years.

On the other hand, a good friend from college is an Army recruiter, and last time we talked he said that because of the severe lack of signees, many of the recruiters he knows are deliberately shading (or downplaying) the terms of the contract so that some of the kids won't get scared off by it (and yes, he's one of those recruiters who does this).

Naive teenagers fresh out of high school don't necessarily have the judgment needed to sign such a binding agreement without it being fully and clearly explained to them. In the long run, I think those types of recruiters are doing a disservice to the military.

[thaiboxerken]

That's right, Nurse. It's better to have people in the service that are well informed about what they're getting into.

[GreNME]

I regret nothing and if called upon I would gladly do it again.

I don't know if you missed it, but for the last seven years the military has been calling for more people, and in the last four or so they've been encouraging people have already served to come back. Since we're currently in the midst of two wars, I respectfully suggest that while you're not specifically being called by name, you're not likely to get turned down for showing up.

;)


Sorry to make fun of your very patriotic speech.

[Starthinker]

I don't know if you missed it, but for the last seven years the military has been calling for more people, and in the last four or so they've been encouraging people have already served to come back. Since we're currently in the midst of two wars, I respectfully suggest that while you're not specifically being called by name, you're not likely to get turned down for showing up.

;)


Sorry to make fun of your very patriotic speech.

Actually, I'm above the age limit now, so I can't respond to a general call, or enlist via normal routes. But if things ever get so bad that they lift such restrictions or come to call someone like me there would be no hesitation.

[Cleon]

Only if you read the contract. Most enlisted I served with didn't know about it until stop-loss and war rumors started to come up.

Recruiters like to make up stories and downplay much of this.

Whether it's signing up for military service or renting an apartment, signing a contract without reading it first is a stupid thing to do.

[thaiboxerken]

Right Cleon. Now if we can only get that message out to potential recruits.

[funk de fino]

Whether it's signing up for military service or renting an apartment, signing a contract without reading it first is a stupid thing to do.

Amen.

[Doubt]

Last I knew, military contracts were ten years. I could be wrong, but I remember that being the case the second time I signed a contract. It has been a while. First time around it was 8 years.

Way back in the 80's cooks were being hit with stop loss. It is not like it is something new.

Recruiters? Lots of people say they lie. My experience has been that they won't correct bad assumptions on the part of the would be solider. (That would be a lie by omission.) The clearest case I remember is that one of my nephews did not talk to me first and signed to to be a truck driver thinking that he would be able to join the rangers. He was not the sharpest pencil in the box.

Most of the lies are those cooked up by enlisted folks who thought they knew something and did not bother to research their choices.

[I Ratant]

What's the general perception of the US army where each of you is?
.
Can't do without 'em!
More power to them!
If only the leadership were up to the task.

[foxholeatheist]

I don't see why an 88M can't go RIP. Sure, the grunts get priority but I have known 92 series to go to RIP and even selection.

[Eddie Dane]

Twiler,

I don't know what the general perception of the US army is in the Netherlands.

Personally, I have a very high opinion of the US army.

I know a few guys who served (in the Dutch, UK and Israeli army respectively). These are all highly motivated people who consciously chose to serve and all were in some kind of special forces. So, no dupes there. (commando, helicopter pilot and combat unit, respectively)

I must hesitantly admit that my image of the US recruiters has been influenced by the recruiters in Fahrenheit 9-11.:blush:
I know that Michael Moore is a very biased source, but those were real recruiters that he was filming on the job.

This, plus the fact that the US army is currently hard-up for manpower makes me suspect that the recruiters may omit some information. I don't know this, though.

[UnrepentantSinner]

I don't see why an 88M can't go RIP. Sure, the grunts get priority but I have known 92 series to go to RIP and even selection.

You mean like a 92R? ;)

-----------------------
Anecdote - We got a new LTC the year I commissioned and related to us that he had been injured during Ranger School and had to drop out of his class. After he got back to full speed he was givin the choice of repeating Ranger School or going to VietNam. He chose the latter.

[Richard Masters]

I read the contract and knew what I was getting into. I held up my end of it and Uncle Sam held up his. Like my brothers, father, and grandfather I served with pride. If you are too soft or weak don't do it. Don't complain that you would serve if only it wasn't so hard. If you have something else going on in your life and you don't have time to serve, then just go about your business. Don't complain about your own inability to make a lengthy commitment that others regularly make. If you have regrets about something you could have done but didn't, keep them to yourself.

I would serve if there was any point.

[foxholeatheist]

You mean like a 92R? ;)

-----------------------
Anecdote - We got a new LTC the year I commissioned and related to us that he had been injured during Ranger School and had to drop out of his class. After he got back to full speed he was givin the choice of repeating Ranger School or going to VietNam. He chose the latter.

Ah, yet another "Sir".

I am reading a really good book a buddy of mine from Perth sent me called "Shadow Warrior". The author was Australian SF (SAS or equalivient) and the first chapter talks about the indoctrination training. Even if you made it through the training they only allowed X number of guys in so you could be cut and have to do it all over again.

My buddy is going RIP and Airborne when we get back. He's a grunt so I figure he'll love it. I am considering Air Assault School but then again I am also considering re-classing to something more chill like X-Ray Tech. The "Hooah Hooah Drive On!" stuff gets old. I got to serve in a combat unit so I'm happy. But now I'm kind of over it.

Hmm... RIP or Nam... that's a toughy.

Yo, Richard, RenaissanceBiker said "If you are too soft or weak don't do it" and we're doing fine without you. Folks like you make my re-enlistment even better.

[funk de fino]

I would serve if there was any point.

I don't think you would.

[Richard Masters]

I don't think you would.

Nah, why give away my rights, when I can just purchase a weapon and defend what needs defending?

But, yes, I would if there was any point.

[Richard Masters]

... Yo, Richard, RenaissanceBiker said "If you are too soft or weak don't do it" and we're doing fine without you. Folks like you make my re-enlistment even better.

Straw man. But it's partly true you are better off (for re-enlistment) without those of us who score in the 97% percentile (ASVAB), and can meet all the basic fitness requirements, which are generally a joke.

[Darth Rotor]

Promises. I don't care what your recruiter promised you, if it's not in the enlistment contract, or in an annex to the contract, it's not a promise.
Correct. Absolutely, one hundred percent, correct.
Here's the second thing -- the military may not let you out at the end of your active duty tour. Under a program called "Stop Loss," the military is allowed to prevent you from separating, during times of conflict, if they need your particular warm body.
It was once very rare, but since the Iraq War started, it's been far too common.

DR

[Richard Masters]

Correct. Absolutely, one hundred percent, correct. ...

There's another term for that. I believe it's called a broken promise, or lying. ;)

[shadron]

Right Cleon. Now if we can only get that message out to potential recruits.

Heh. Just about the last thing an 18-year-old wants to hear is a two hour lecture on the nature and effects of contract law. That should have started somewhat earlier, when the hormones weren't quite as high, right along with how to handle money and the meaning of compound interest. Did he or she have a news route? Has he worked a real, manual job? The Boy Scouts, the Girl Scouts and the 4-H and other clubs used to fill a piece of that gap, but they've long since moved on to political and religious relevancy instead. The parents have to be doing it; it is, ultimately, their responsibility. Many shove it off on the armed forces, and, as the USPS says, They Deliver.

[Lonewulf]

Yo, Richard, RenaissanceBiker said "If you are too soft or weak don't do it" and we're doing fine without you. Folks like you make my re-enlistment even better.

Yeap, anyone who disagrees with the current war, are "too soft and weak to do it".

No room for reasonable discourse or ethical disagreement, nope.

If turning into a chest-beating judgmental prick is the price of joining the Army, then I don't want any part. I'd probably want to go Air Force or Navy anyways. Or I'd follow in the footsteps of my mother and act as a civil servant, but you probably see them as "too soft and weak" as well. Anyone that doesn't pick up a gun and shoot at people or handle war machinery is obviously "soft and weak".

[Z]

When I signed up, I signed under the Delayed Entry Program, in my junior year of high school. So by the time I went to BT, I only had seven years total commitment left! I did three years, took a year off (and spent part of that in the guard), then went back and did six (two three-year terms with a six-month break between for personal reasons).

I could possibly be one of the few US soldiers with three honorable discharges!

So anyway, I did nine years three months active duty (somehow, each term gathered an extra month), plus one year delayed entry (which, apparently, counted as active duty reserve status), plus one year six months of inactive reserve/national guard...

...and all I got was this lousy shirt... :D

[Lonewulf]

I read the contract and knew what I was getting into. I held up my end of it and Uncle Sam held up his. Like my brothers, father, and grandfather I served with pride. If you are too soft or weak don't do it. Don't complain that you would serve if only it wasn't so hard. If you have something else going on in your life and you don't have time to serve, then just go about your business. Don't complain about your own inability to make a lengthy commitment that others regularly make. If you have regrets about something you could have done but didn't, keep them to yourself.

Don't worry, I wouldn't complain to you.

My grandfather served as well, in WWII and the Korean War. He elected to not go into Vietnam, because he failed to see it as a winning war. My mother served the Army and Air Force as a civil servant; she's currently a GS 12 and is serving the base down near Heidelberg, Germany.

I'm just as proud as my family history as you are, and I still would not want to serve in the Iraq war. It's also not because I'm "weak" or "soft". Yes, people like me exist.

[JoeyDonuts]

Ugh.

Although you do enter into a contract with the United States government when you enlist, the onus is on YOU to get your questions answered to your satisfaction before you sign up. Just like it behooves you to get as much information as possible out of an interviewer when you're hunting for a job and deciding to accept an offer.

Makes even more sense to go in through DEP so you have a leg up when you get to boot camp.

Sure thing, recruiters are under pressure to fulfill quotas and such, but nobody should ever depend on the military to provide everything for them when it comes to answer. You don't trade in your smarts and initiative when you enlist, and believe me you have to watch out for your career the whole time you're in.

An informed recruit is a smart recruit. They have no reason to bitch that their recruiter didn't tell them they'd be ankle-deep in human waste cleaning out a VCHT tank, or *gasp* actually coming under enemy fire.

As far as stop-loss goes, you know that you are on the hook for a service obligation of eight years, regardless of how long your enlistment is. It says it right there in the contract. Don't agree with it? Don't sign and walk out of there. Your recruiter might be miffed that he has to come pick you up and drive you across the state back from MEPS when you've decided not to sign, but nobody is forcing anybody into it.

That's not to say unscrupulous recruiting doesn't happen. It does, and it's unfortunate. Even so, the correct information regarding enlistment contracts is out there for you to find regardless of how shady your recruiter might be.

And here's one for you. Don't like the recruiter that's working with you? Think he's selling you a line? Call the nearest recruiting district or another recruiter. They'll give you info, although it'll probably be what you were told in the first place.

If you're super skittish, take legal representation with you if don't understand contracts. The folks at MEPS might not be accommodating, but I'm not sure how they could say no to something like that.

If anyone is interested in joining the Navy and wants real semi-recent scoop on programs, opportunities and such, hit me up. I'm not active duty, and not a recruiter, but I'll do my best to lay things out straight for you.

[Aepervius]

And how many of these young, inexperienced, stupid people are here on this forum?

Counting the woo opening various type of thread....Counting the trolls.... Quite a lot.
They aren't permanent resident , though. More like drive by posting.

[foxholeatheist]

Yeap, anyone who disagrees with the current war, are "too soft and weak to do it".

No room for reasonable discourse or ethical disagreement, nope.

If turning into a chest-beating judgmental prick is the price of joining the Army, then I don't want any part. I'd probably want to go Air Force or Navy anyways. Or I'd follow in the footsteps of my mother and act as a civil servant, but you probably see them as "too soft and weak" as well. Anyone that doesn't pick up a gun and shoot at people or handle war machinery is obviously "soft and weak".

No one disagrees with the current war more than I do. I don't how you figure to the contrary.

It's not for everyone and some of the folks here shouldn't be here either. In AIT there was medic that couldn't handle the sight of blood. He graduated. So somewhere's out theres a platoon with a medic that faints at the sight of blood. It's not that he's weak or soft, just how he is.

Hey, we got something in common, my momma is a GS12 too! She works at on Yongsan Garrison in South Korea. Dad is a GS14 and he's in The Stan right now. We met up when we were both in Iraq together which was pretty cool. He was in the Air Force during the closing days of Vietnam and went on to work for the DOD after that. My cousin is stationed at a base nearby but he'll be going home soon cause he's a Marine and his deployment is only 8 months. My sister was an Air Force officer very briefly. So everyone in my immediate family served in some way. I could go on and on about my extended family.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Ah, yet another "Sir".

Nah. My commission was for Reserve components, I hurt my back during FAOBC and was medically retired after one NG drill weekend. I only talk the talk.

Hmm... RIP or Nam... that's a toughy.

Actually it was Ranger School. I suppose he decided a CIB (he was Infantry) would be easier to get than his tab.

[Peace]

The only time I might fight for 'a country' is if it was invaded.

[JoeyDonuts]

The only time I might fight for 'a country' is if it was invaded.

Projection of military power is vital to maintaining stability in a global environment.

What if your country has interests overseas? What if one of your allies gets attacked? This kind of insular thinking made more sense in the 1800's.

And another thing, why do you put the words 'a country' in quotation marks? If you're trying to make a statement, don't mumble and mince. Out with it. What exactly are you implying?

[Peace]

What if your country has interests overseas? What if one of your allies gets attacked?



I don't own a country, and the only allies I have are my friends.

[Eddie Dane]

I don't own a country, and the only allies I have are my friends.

I think you should run for office on that platform.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Projection of military power is vital to maintaining stability in a global environment.


I'm not very good with military theory, so for my education, is it possible to expand on this statement in any way that doesn't mean 'projection of US military power, but no-one elses is vital to maintaining stability in a global environment'?

[JoeyDonuts]

I'm not very good with military theory, so for my education, is it possible to expand on this statement in any way that doesn't mean 'projection of US military power, but no-one elses is vital to maintaining stability in a global environment'?

You have to understand the term 'power projection' as it's talked about in military circles. It basically refers to the ability of a nation's military to bring resources to bear in a conflict no matter what its theater or distance from the military's home country.

This concept is not exclusive to the United States, and a cowboy 'go-it-alone' philosophy is not what I'm alluding to here.

Essentially, if the Japanese had focused on our aircraft carriers in the opening salvoes of WWII instead of the battleships at Pearl, they would have severely limited our ability to project power from the sea.

So, 'power projection' doesn't mean "the U.S. bombs the hell out of whatever it wants because it can." Does that make any sense? I'm not a military theorist either, just an ex-crypto that had to sit through an awful lot of PowerPoint lectures.

I wish I had a cheesy and obligatory "QUESTIONS?" slide for this post.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

You have to understand the term 'power projection' as it's talked about in military circles. It basically refers to the ability of a nation's military to bring resources to bear in a conflict no matter what its theater or distance from the military's home country.

This concept is not exclusive to the United States, and a cowboy 'go-it-alone' philosophy is not what I'm alluding to here.

Essentially, if the Japanese had focused on our aircraft carriers in the opening salvoes of WWII instead of the battleships at Pearl, they would have severely limited our ability to project power from the sea.

So, 'power projection' doesn't mean "the U.S. bombs the hell out of whatever it wants because it can." Does that make any sense? I'm not a military theorist either, just an ex-crypto that had to sit through an awful lot of PowerPoint lectures.

I wish I had a cheesy and obligatory "QUESTIONS?" slide for this post.
I appreciate the answer, which makes perfect sense and I can understand that from any one military's perspective it's a good thing. I just find it hard to imagine if China or Russia began building a large fleet of aircraft carriers or cruise missiles that you would calmly explain that this was OK because "Projection of military power is vital to maintaining stability in a global environment."

[JimBenArm]

What's the general perception of the US army where each of you is?
We consider them beneath contempt. Of course, I'm ex-Navy.

[Paulhoff]

“Enlistment” equals “Indentured Slave”

Paul

:) :) :)

[Grizzly Bear]

Whether it's signing up for military service or renting an apartment, signing a contract without reading it first is a stupid thing to do.

I was thinking the same thing :\
Contracts essentially disclose the conditions of one's agreement with whatever they're signing up for. I could throw a hissy fit if it doesn't offer what I want, however if I don't take the time to READ what's there, then I have no one else to blame but myself.

You consent to a terms of service when you sign up for a forum, when you apply for a college loan, name it... regardless of what it's for it's theapplicant's responsibility to read and understand the content of what they're signing for...

[JoeyDonuts]

I appreciate the answer, which makes perfect sense and I can understand that from any one military's perspective it's a good thing. I just find it hard to imagine if China or Russia began building a large fleet of aircraft carriers or cruise missiles that you would calmly explain that this was OK because "Projection of military power is vital to maintaining stability in a global environment."

Add a corollary to that: "This principle applies when the nation applying power projection has a vested interest in maintaining regional and global stability."

China doesn't have any aircraft carriers right now that I know of. I've been out of "the business" for about two years, so it's entirely possible they've procured or developed one in that time. They do have a very sizable arsenal of cruise missiles - reverse engineered from European nations of course.

Russia's carrier fleet consists of one vessel nowadays - the RS Admiral Kuznutsov, and it's ability to go to sea for sustained periods is suspect - or was two years ago. They still do have an awe-inspiring arsenal of third-, fourth-, and fifth-generation cruise missiles, some of which possess maneuvering and survivability features far beyond any shipboard ordnance in the U.S. arsenal.

On the plus side, our naval defensive weaponry technology is second-to-none. If that tells you anything.

[foxholeatheist]

Nah. My commission was for Reserve components, I hurt my back during FAOBC and was medically retired after one NG drill weekend. I only talk the talk.



Actually it was Ranger School. I suppose he decided a CIB (he was Infantry) would be easier to get than his tab.

RIP = Ranger Indoctrination Program

I am considering a stint as a Nasty Girl after a few more years Regular.

A real good friend of mine was an 11B and then reclassed to medic. For both MOS's he saw action so he is entitled to wear his CAB, CMB, or CIB. I can wear either the CAB or CMB but I usually only wear the CMB.

Navy... Come on now, who doesn't like Seamen?

[Richard Masters]

I don't think you would.

As it turns out I may just do so to help me pay for another college degree and my old college loans. I'm considering the reserves.

[DuckOnWarpath]

My grandfather served as well, in WWII and the Korean War. He elected to not go into Vietnam, because he failed to see it as a winning war.

I find this statement interesting and I really don't mean any disrespect, but what difference does it make that the Vietnam war was not a winning one? Wouldn't then be a greater need for dedicated soldiers?

I can certainly understand that after WW2, your grandfather would probably not want anything to do with another war ~ it's just this reasoning that I don't understand.

[Comsat Angel]

What's the general perception of the US army where each of you is?

The US Army is:

1) Enormous and everywhere. I mean, they even have a base on Cuba. Cuba, for heaven's sake!
2) Armed to the teeth with the very latest cutting-edge hi-tec weapons in endless amounts. The most distant outpost in the armpit of the Aleutians has more kit than was featured in "Transformers".
3) Addicted to speaking techno-jargon - refer above to M88, RIP, CBM, DoD, Sunray Two Actual, etc. etc.
4) A haven for cultured gourmands who appreciate haute cuisine served a la carte in the field.

The British Army is:

1) Very small. Everyone is on first-name terms.
2) Forced to make do with muskets and arquebuses, if they're lucky. The unlucky get the SA80 as originally issued.
3) Composed of two classes - the toffee-nosed upper-class officers and the sweary cheery cheeky Cockney OR's.
4) Only able to function thanks to regular injections of tea.

[NYCEMT86]

As one who went through MEPS once (was going to go DEP, but they phased out the MOS I wanted so I went to college instead), the Career Guidence Counsoler went over everthing in my contract with me and I still have my copies, everything is there in plain english...so its not the recruiter lying to you, its paying attention to what is on that piece of paper. The recruiter cant promise you anything...actually there is a lot they cant do for you, but only steer you in the right direction because if you sit on your butt and wait then you probably wont be getting that job you want (due to quotas met during the quarter or even year). They will get you the job closest to what you want an tell you to reclass once you are done with BT and AIT. As for enlistment periods, mine was explained to me as 4 years active and 2yrs Guard/Reserves.

This was in 2003 btw

[Skeptic]

[/B][/I]Enlistment Periods. Thought you were enlisting for four years? Think again. It may surprise you to learn that ALL non-prior service enlistments in the United States Military incurs a total eight year service obligation. Yep. When you sign that enlistment contract, you are obligating yourself to the military for a total of eight years. Whatever time is not spent on active duty, or in the active Guard/Reserves (if you enlisted in the Guard/Reserves) must be spent in the inactive reserves. Here's the second thing -- the military may not let you out at the end of your active duty tour. Under a program called "Stop Loss," the military is allowed to prevent you from separating, during times of conflict, if they need your particular warm body.

This sounds much worse than it actually is. In Israel the active service is 3 years (or 4 for officers) and then you are on the reserves -- sometimes doing active service -- for up to 30 years (yes), but this hardly means one is enlisting for 33 years. Reserve is not at all the same as active service. It merely means you can be called up in case of war, or for training a few weeks in a year. Similarly, not releasing people in actual combat -- same thing in the IDF, or for that matter in every other armed forces, so far as I know, and it happened before (e.g., during the Lebanese war).

[NYCEMT86]

This sounds much worse than it actually is. In Israel the active service is 3 years (or 4 for officers) and then you are on the reserves -- sometimes doing active service -- for up to 30 years (yes), but this hardly means one is enlisting for 33 years. Reserve is not at all the same as active service. It merely means you can be called up in case of war, or for training a few weeks in a year. Similarly, not releasing people in actual combat -- same thing in the IDF, or for that matter in every other armed forces, so far as I know, and it happened before (e.g., during the Lebanese war).

IIRC, isn't it required by everyone in Israel to serve in the military?

[Alareth]

The US Army is:

1) Enormous and everywhere. I mean, they even have a base on Cuba. Cuba, for heaven's sake!


No, they don't. The US Navy has a base in Cuba. We just refused to leave when Castro took over.

[Philosaur]

I'm not a military theorist either, just an ex-crypto that had to sit through an awful lot of PowerPoint lectures.

Russia's carrier fleet consists of one vessel nowadays - the RS Admiral Kuznutsov, and it's ability to go to sea for sustained periods is suspect - or was two years ago. They still do have an awe-inspiring arsenal of third-, fourth-, and fifth-generation cruise missiles, some of which possess maneuvering and survivability features far beyond any shipboard ordnance in the U.S. arsenal.

CTI? Ru-Ling by any chance? I was a squid at DLI from 94 to 97 and then Kunia, HI after.

Incidentally, I had a terrible experience in the military--beginning with a recruiter who must have been REALLY down on his quotas. Granted I was young, dumb, and full of...enthusiasm, but I still think it's a shame that caveat emptor should apply in dealings between a nation's citizens and its military.