Proving God/Insanity/experimental subthread

[Monketey Ghost]

Check it, y'all.

I was speaking with my friend who is religious. He really wanted to press the issue (I hate talking about religion generally, I find people don't really want to discuss, but rather simply make a strident speech) so it unspooled its way to the "What for you, Pink Booties, would constitute proof of God's existence?" question.

Turns out, we had a long, interesting discussion. Turns out... I would take pretty much any proof of God's existence as evidence of my own insanity. The appearance of a being, or a tome telling me of future times, ...pretty much anything I can think of, as a sure sign I need to check in to the nut house. So to me, nothing could prove the existence of God, even God appearing before me in the flesh or what have you.

Is there something wrong with this, and what sort of atheist would that make me? Is my mind so irrevocably shut to the possibility of the existence of a supreme being, I'd have a mental breakdown in the face of God?

*subthread*

An opinion poll. Since I certainly don't qualify, I'm wondering people's opinions on which active members post the least but say the most?

[CurtC]

You've run into David Hume's objection to supernaturalism - you should only believe in something miraculous if all other explanations are even less likely than a miracle. In this case, you're right that it's much more probable that you would be insane than the almighty creator of the universe appearing to you.

However, at that point, you may as well go ahead and believe it, because hey, you're insane anyway, so who cares?

I've had the same thoughts, and while I would take any revelation only to me as a sign of my own insanity, I would accept a revelation to many other people that can be confirmed to be the same revelation that I had. If only *I* saw the stars move to spell out "I AM GOD," then I would figure I was hallucinating. But if everyone saw the same thing, then I would accept that as demonstration of a god (as long as trickery was satisfactorily ruled out).

[Monketey Ghost]

Good answer. That crossed my mind as well, but then of course I figured a psychotic fantasy can be really involved and detailed. Why not a group of people to confirm your asterism-hallucination? Where does it end, man?

[slingblade]

I agree that just about anything I could think of as proof of god could also be explained by me as my having gone insane, or having some other sort of brain-related pseudo-reality experience. Enhancement. Laser-Light. Extravaganza. Palooza.

(Sorry. All those adjectives just seemed, somehow, to belong.)

But if my losing numbers on my lotto ticket were to change right this second into the winnning numbers...and both my husband and I became "millionaires," I'm not sure I could explain that as sudden hallucinogenic insanity. I'd have to go with "damn. God's real, and we're rich. This is cool. And, um, amen."

[Robin]

Well obviously it would have to be something that is not purely subjective.

Beyond a certain point you could not dismiss evidence that was confirmed by others as being personal insanity, unless you were assuming that the entire world you experience is just a personal dream.

[Wolfman]

Actually, if god really wanted you to believe he was real...and if he's really omniscient...then he would know that simply revealing himself to you would not do the trick. Being omniscient and omnipotent, he'd have two options:

1) Reveal himself in such a way that it would really overcome your doubts, and convince you he was real, or, failing that...

2) Mess around with your brain and make you believe in him (in fact, that's pretty much what Calvinists believe god does...if he's predestined you to believe in him, you have no choice except to believe; and if he's predestined you not to believe in him, you have no choice except to not believe)



ETA: the latter point actually inspired me to start a new thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5024888)

[arthwollipot]

I'm with the Wolf. If God really wants to prove he exists, he already knows exactly what would convince you.

[Robin]

I'm with the Wolf. If God really wants to prove he exists, he already knows exactly what would convince you.
Sounds fair enough to me too - if there was a God and it was really important to him that I believed I would already believe.

[Monketey Ghost]

I'm with the Wolf. If God really wants to prove he exists, he already knows exactly what would convince you.

That assumes a bit though. Help! What could possibly convince me? I think the harder God tried, the crazier I'd fear myself becoming.

[tsig]

I agree that just about anything I could think of as proof of god could also be explained by me as my having gone insane, or having some other sort of brain-related pseudo-reality experience. Enhancement. Laser-Light. Extravaganza. Palooza.

(Sorry. All those adjectives just seemed, somehow, to belong.)

But if my losing numbers on my lotto ticket were to change right this second into the winnning numbers...and both my husband and I became "millionaires," I'm not sure I could explain that as sudden hallucinogenic insanity. I'd have to go with "damn. God's real, and we're rich. This is cool. And, um, amen."

That would mean that you screwed the real winners out of their prize.

[slingblade]

That would mean that you screwed the real winners out of their prize.

Oh, I hope so!

[Pure Argent]

Good answer. That crossed my mind as well, but then of course I figured a psychotic fantasy can be really involved and detailed. Why not a group of people to confirm your asterism-hallucination? Where does it end, man?

How do you know that this entire world isn't an illusion in your own mind? How do you know that, when you sleep, everything blinks out of existence until your mind starts back up, since we're all figures of your imagination?

In essence... do you want the red pill, or the blue pill?

[arthwollipot]

That assumes a bit though. Help! What could possibly convince me? I think the harder God tried, the crazier I'd fear myself becoming.Is this God omnipotent, or what?

[Ron_Tomkins]

Check it, y'all.

I was speaking with my friend who is religious. He really wanted to press the issue (I hate talking about religion generally, I find people don't really want to discuss, but rather simply make a strident speech) so it unspooled its way to the "What for you, Pink Booties, would constitute proof of God's existence?" question.

Turns out, we had a long, interesting discussion. Turns out... I would take pretty much any proof of God's existence as evidence of my own insanity. The appearance of a being, or a tome telling me of future times, ...pretty much anything I can think of, as a sure sign I need to check in to the nut house. So to me, nothing could prove the existence of God, even God appearing before me in the flesh or what have you.

Is there something wrong with this, and what sort of atheist would that make me? Is my mind so irrevocably shut to the possibility of the existence of a supreme being, I'd have a mental breakdown in the face of God?

*subthread*

An opinion poll. Since I certainly don't qualify, I'm wondering people's opinions on which active members post the least but say the most?

No, well, proof of a God, like any other Supernatural phenomena, would simply imply a Paradigm Shift and thus stop being Paranormal at all. I'm sure that the idea of a Spheric Planet, around which we can walk and not "fall down" may have sound pretty supernatural to people before it was proven that the earth was indeed round (and all the explanation of how that consistently fits in the natural world according to the laws of physics). When the paradigm shifts, what was once considered to be Supernatural in the you'd-have-to-simply-be-insane-to-believe-it, turns out to be perfectly natural, granted that there is a logical explanation that is consistent with the natural world.

So I don't think one has to take the close-minded position that the God theory, or any proposition is so simply put outrageous that one would have to be insane to believe it, granted that the new explanation is backed up with compelling evidence that computes with the whole structure of what we call the natural, explainable world. If there actually happens to be a God and we find it, then that turned out to be another part of the big puzzle of reality we've been digging through, and we just needed more time and evolution to find it.

[MikeSun5]

What could possibly convince me?

Probably nothing. It's called faith, my friend. You have faith God doesn't exist just like arthwollipot has faith he's going to Valhalla when he dies.

I remember reading a thread similar to this where someone wondered what atheists would think if God descended from the sky on a cloud in a flood of light. Most atheists answered they'd probably think it was some extraterrestrial being before thinking it was God.

[Wolfman]

Probably nothing. It's called faith, my friend. You have faith God doesn't exist just like arthwollipot has faith he's going to Valhalla when he dies.
Sorry, dude...but one doesn't have faith in something they don't believe in...at least, not by any reasonable definition of "faith". Some examples:

* The Flying Spaghetti Monster
* A giant blue carnivorous chicken living on Venus
* A planet inhabited entirely by sapient plants that look like Peewee Herman
* An alien race that is living in a hidden dimension under my left baby toenail

I'd feel fairly confident that you would not believe in any of the above; in fact, you'd dismiss their existence quite easily. Yet it would be rather a stretch to say that you have "faith" that there is not a giant blue carnivorous chicken living on Venus.

[MikeSun5]

not by any reasonable definition of "faith"

Here we go with the infamous JREF word games...

Well, here's the definition I meant in my post:

b (1) : firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2) : complete trust
3 : something that is believed especially with strong conviction

Those definitions were taken from merriam-webster.com (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/faith). If you consider this definition false and the source unreasonable, then I apologize.

I also apologize for not linking to definitions on every semi-ambiguous word I've used here. I should probably start.

And yes, I have complete trust and I believe with a strong conviction (read: I have faith) that there is no chicken on Venus.

[arthwollipot]

Probably nothing. It's called faith, my friend. You have faith God doesn't exist just like arthwollipot has faith he's going to Valhalla when he dies.Um, hello? Are we talking about the same person here?

[MikeSun5]

Um, hello? Are we talking about the same person here?

Don't deny it, I've seen your necklace. :D

[fromdownunder]

That assumes a bit though. Help! What could possibly convince me? I think the harder God tried, the crazier I'd fear myself becoming.

An omni-everything personal god would know exactly which buttons of yours he would have to press to convince you that he is really, truly out there without sending you mad. The conclusion is inescapable:

1. He does not exist; or
2. He exists and does not want you.

Norm

[arthwollipot]

Don't deny it, I've seen your necklace. :DI wear a Thor's Hammer, yes. That doesn't mean that I buy into the mythology.

Awesome though that mythology happens to be...