Migraine Test, VFF, and LightinDarkness

[Uncayimmy]

Somehow I missed this page on VFF's site:
http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html

She posted an entire PM exchange with Lightindarkness, which was quite revealing. There are some gems.

My main claim of medical perceptions will not be dropped if I fail to heal your migraines. It is better if I have an official kidney detection test and fail that test and falsify that claim that way.
If I fail to heal your migraines, that doesn't prove I cannot heal. However, if I can't detect a missing kidney, that does.

To me it sounds like you are doing what UncaYimmy is doing. When there is the slight chance that some of my woo might have something real to it you all drop out and make excuses.
This is a reference to my offer that we discuss verifying her migraine story after it turned out she was lying about having affidavits. She called me a stalker (a joke, she says), so I refused. She sent me the phone numbers anyway, but I was not allowed to know the victim's name nor speak to his wife, a witness as to his improvement.

I am not an average paranormal claimant.
Told you she thought she was special.

I am meeting with a migraine sufferer in early August to attempt the healing treatment with her. This person is already active in Reiki healing and is interested in the technique that I use.
No word on that yet, huh?

As for the migraine sufferers group she contacted, you might recall that they specifically asked that no treatment providers contact them. VFF did anyway. I contacted the organizer myself and pointed her to the StopVFF site as well as VFF's site. I told her to form her own opinion and that I would answer any questions she might have. She thanked me. As far as I know, Anita is not welcome at the meetings.

LightinDarkness, I would ask you to reconsider your position (not that I think it is unsound). What I respectfully suggest is that you agree to the migraine test under the following conditions:

* You videotape it for posting on YouTube
* You have her do a reading using my checklist 15028 where you keep the originals and publish the results.
* You have her do a crushed pill test and publish the results.
* Have her allow you write your own page on her site sharing your experience.

If she won't agree on the last point or renegs, I publicly promise to give you a page on my website that you can edit at your discretion subject only to reasonable legal issues (threats, criminal acts, copyright, etc) and, of course, being about your experience with VFF.

[LightinDarkness]

What I find so annoying is how VFF never respects anyone's privacy. She thinks its perfectly fine to talk to people in PRIVATE messages and then post the entire thing without even asking me if that is OK. Her total lack and disregard for other people never ceases to amaze me.

Meanwhile, she gets raving mad when someone does this to her.

Anita, the difference between you and me is that you have chosen to reveal personal details about yourself and plaster them on the web because you want the attention.

VFF is one classless act. How dare you start barraging me with PMs and then post it on your website - and she doesn't even post the whole thing, particularly my posts that make her look bad - without even asking me?

[LightinDarkness]

LightinDarkness, I would ask you to reconsider your position (not that I think it is unsound). What I respectfully suggest is that you agree to the migraine test under the following conditions:

* You videotape it for posting on YouTube
* You have her do a reading using my checklist 15028 where you keep the originals and publish the results.
* You have her do a crushed pill test and publish the results.
* Have her allow you write your own page on her site sharing your experience.

If she won't agree on the last point or renegs, I publicly promise to give you a page on my website that you can edit at your discretion subject only to reasonable legal issues (threats, criminal acts, copyright, etc) and, of course, being about your experience with VFF.

The problem with this is it gives Anita more of the attention that she craves. If she refuses to agree to give up her woo or retreat on her fantastical claims, what would me traveling to her accomplish? You know very well that she would fail to cure my migraines, fail the pill test, and then claim success. Giving me a page on her website is going to result in her editing or censoring me, and while I appreciate your offer your website is already quite comprehensive in debunking Anita's claims.

To me, this is not about debunking Anita's claims because everyone can see that she does not have the supernatural powers she claims. There is no evidence for it and every test she has tried has been a spectacular failure. No reasonable person requires more evidence. What I want to see is - for Anita's own well being - her drop the delusions and go back to being a perfectly normal person. What your proposal does is just provides yet another avenue to the numerous ones you've already created to demonstrate that Anita has no powers. We don't need another one - we already know this - what we need is for Anita to recognize her own delusions and move on.

I am more than happy to have her practice the woo, if, upon her failure and my doctor's proof that I still have migraines, she gives up the woo. That would be an advancement. She refuses to do this because she knows she will fail, and without requiring her to give up the woo she will simply make excuses and move on to some other area of woo.

Finally, Anita's total lack of regard for others makes me not want to reveal my personal identity to her. If she can't even hold a PM conversation without plastering it on her website, who knows what sort of stalking she would engage in if I met her in person? I am not yet convinced that she isn't suffering from a severe mental illness that is getting worse - what if she snaps under the pressure of proving her supernatural powers when again and again the evidence shows she is perfectly normal?

[GeeMack]

[...] when again and again the evidence shows she is perfectly normal?


Well she certainly doesn't have any magical x-ray vision powers, but perfectly normal? I beg to differ. ;)

[LightinDarkness]

Well she certainly doesn't have any magical x-ray vision powers, but perfectly normal? I beg to differ. ;)

Touche :D

[Uncayimmy]

Thanks for your response, LightinDarkness. I certainly appreciate your position. I was just hoping to have a visual record of her failures since they can be so much more dramatic than words. I believe that if there were YouTube videos she couldn't resist posting them on her site. Sure, she would try to spin it in her favor, but I think it would be so transparent that it would hurt her claims.

It's clear to me that no failure no matter how profound will shake her from her beliefs. I just want to make sure her sphere of influence is as small as possible.

[VisionFromFeeling]

What I find so annoying is how VFF never respects anyone's privacy. She thinks its perfectly fine to talk to people in PRIVATE messages and then post the entire thing without even asking me if that is OK. Her total lack and disregard for other people never ceases to amaze me.

Meanwhile, she gets raving mad when someone does this to her.

Anita, the difference between you and me is that you have chosen to reveal personal details about yourself and plaster them on the web because you want the attention.

VFF is one classless act. How dare you start barraging me with PMs and then post it on your website - and she doesn't even post the whole thing, particularly my posts that make her look bad - without even asking me?Dear LightinDarkness, in those several PM's between you and me, that I have subsequently posted on my website at migraines.html (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html), it was you who suggested that we take our conversation into the public Forum. At that time, however, the public thread that discusses my claims was temporarily closed by the Moderators and that is why you and I were corresponding in PM about the migraine test. I also mentioned at least once and probably more than once, in our PM's, that if you were to object against me making our correspondence public, please notify me.

I had no reason to expect you to object to me making our PM's public.

ETA: I am not doing this for attention toward myself. I am bringing attention to some interesting experiences, that some other paranormal claimants also claim to experience. I still feel that I made the right choice by making my experience and investigation public, even if it annoys some of you Skeptics.

Also, I certainly posted every single PM between you and me. I made very sure of that. And I don't think that any of your PM's made me look bad. Please read the PM's again and confirm if any of them were missing.

Certainly, if you were to tell me that you have changed your mind about making our conversation public, I will of course remove the PM's from my website.

[Skeptical Greg]

It doesn't work that way Anita .. The expectation is that they are private, unless you are told otherwise ..

Failure to protest is not permission ..

[Kariboo]

[QUOTE=VisionFromFeeling;5044665] I have subsequently posted on my website at migraines.html (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html), it was you who suggested that we take our conversation into the public Forum.

Your website is not a public forum


I also mentioned at least once and probably more than once, in our PM's, that if you were to object against me making our correspondence public, please notify me.

I had no reason to expect you to object to me making our PM's public.


PM's are private unless the parties both agree that they are not.

So even if LightinDarkness agreed to publish her/his pm's in a public forum (which (s)he did not), you didn't put it n a public forum but on your own website

[Farencue]

Dear LightinDarkness, blah blah dribbledydoodah etc.....
I had no reason to expect you to object to me making our PM's public.

Transparency of words
Lack of action
Abrasive and manipulative of personality
Unsound of mind


I urge EVERYBODY on this forum to use the link in the OP and read the "correspondence" that Anita barraged LightinDarkness with.
I mean REALLY read it. I just about threw up doing so.
My fellow skeptics here are way more patient than I am, and I think it beneficial to Anita that I live in Australia.

LightinDarkness, PLEASE do not go anywhere near this crazy, sick, twisted woowoo. It has gone way past the harmless stage now.
Moderators, I realise you may not like this post but I urge you to go to the link and see what you are allowing here on this forum.
if Anita was my child she would be getting a smack across the backside. How dare you harrass LightinDarkness this way?

[GeeMack]

Dear LightinDarkness, [...]

I had no reason to expect you to object to me making our PM's public.


Apparently he does object...

What I find so annoying is how VFF never respects anyone's privacy. She thinks its perfectly fine to talk to people in PRIVATE messages and then post the entire thing without even asking me if that is OK. Her total lack and disregard for other people never ceases to amaze me.

Meanwhile, she gets raving mad when someone does this to her.

Anita, the difference between you and me is that you have chosen to reveal personal details about yourself and plaster them on the web because you want the attention.

VFF is one classless act. How dare you start barraging me with PMs and then post it on your website - and she doesn't even post the whole thing, particularly my posts that make her look bad - without even asking me?


If you had any decency, any sense of honesty, you'd take that material off your web site. Oh, but you have demonstrated that you don't have any honesty...

Feel free to apply skepticism and call me a liar and a fraud.


You're a liar and a fraud.

[Farencue]

I was perusing Anita's website 24 hours ago and the migraine ******** was not on there.

What a sick, sick mind to start a new post about the mysterious contractor with a missing organ. When she failed to get enough attention from that she spent the rest of her time creating her migraine "study" at LightinDarkness' expense.

So what happened to the mysterious contractor Anita?
*poof* vanished into thin air with the rest of your science.

Revolting!

Do not use alternate spelling to get around the auto-censor.

[Empress]

Actually, the migraine postings have been on the VFF site for a while. I've been making periodic checks to see if she had updated any information, since she was supposed to see the Reiki-using migraine sufferer early this month.

Assuming that the person actually exists, it appears that either Anita wasn't able to effect any change and doesn't want to admit it, or, despite her wooish tendencies (Reiki) she thought better of letting Anita anywhere near her. At any rate, here it is the 25th of August, and no new information on the latest victim of Anita's imaginings.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Giving me a page on her website is going to result in her editing or censoring meIf I were to agree to let you post material on my website, I would not edit or censor it, within reasonable restrictions for instance there are nice ways to say mean things, and there are mean ways to say mean things.

To me, this is not about debunking Anita's claims because everyone can see that she does not have the supernatural powers she claims. There is no evidence for it and every test she has tried has been a spectacular failure. I have not had a test of my claim of medical perceptions yet. Only a study.

No reasonable person requires more evidence. What I want to see is - for Anita's own well being - her drop the delusions and go back to being a perfectly normal person. What your proposal does is just provides yet another avenue to the numerous ones you've already created to demonstrate that Anita has no powers. We don't need another one - we already know this - what we need is for Anita to recognize her own delusions and move on.I detected the missing kidney. I really did. There is no way I can drop my paranormal claim until there has been a test and a conclusion has been reached. I can of course not let you Skeptics conclude on my paranormal claim, and to base your dismissal of the claim on your suspicions, impatience, and on the lack of evidence. It is important that I have the test, and if and when I fail the test and falsify the claim, that will set a valuable example into the woo community and I am most reluctant to miss out on that opportunity.

I am more than happy to have her practice the woo, if, upon her failure and my doctor's proof that I still have migraines, she gives up the woo. That would be an advancement. She refuses to do this because she knows she will fail, and without requiring her to give up the woo she will simply make excuses and move on to some other area of woo. If I were to attempt to heal your migraines and there would be no improvement in your condition, I would allow it to falsify the claim of healing. I outlined this in our PM's, which you can still find on my website (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html).

Finally, Anita's total lack of regard for others makes me not want to reveal my personal identity to her. If she can't even hold a PM conversation without plastering it on her website, who knows what sort of stalking she would engage in if I met her in person? Please read the PM's again, where I carefully outlined how I would respect your privacy.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I was perusing Anita's website 24 hours ago and the migraine bullsh!t was not on there.

What a sick, sick mind to start a new post about the mysterious contractor with a missing organ. When she failed to get enough attention from that she spent the rest of her time creating her migraine "study" at LightinDarkness' expense.

So what happened to the mysterious contractor Anita?
*poof* vanished into thin air with the rest of your science.

Revolting!Absolutely not true! The migraine page has been there for several weeks now! As for the contractor, my plan was to call him up this weekend.

[Audible Click]

Anita, now that you know that LightnDarkness strenuously objects to having his PM's with you posted on your forum, the honorable thing to do would be to take them down immediately.

[Farencue]

The migraine study has been there for several weeks?
I missed those big bold letters.

As for your plans Anita, so many plans so little time to actually do anything.
You are sick.

[catbasket]

Please read the PM's again, where I carefully outlined how I would respect your privacy.
Then you publish the Private Messages on your website!

Liar. Hypocrite. The evidence is above - therefore this is not a breach of the MA.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I do not claim that I can heal. Those that I have attempted to heal claim that I have healed them. And so I am open to other opportunities in order to investigate whether the attempted treatment would coincide with improvement in pain again. I am of course ready to falsify the claim.

I have only attempted to heal people three times. Two involved loved ones who were helpless in pain and medicines and conventional options had failed to help them. That is when I had to try something and allowed my "Vision From Feeling", which is when I feel a vibrational landscape around a person only by looking at them but not touching, and based on the detailed images and feeling of tissues and pain I design the two parts of the attempted treatment.

The first part is visualization, in which I work directly in the images that I am perceiving, to remove dark areas that I see in the tissues.

The second part is physical manipulation with my hands at the affected areas. I decide where and how to press or massage based on how I feel will add a balance into what I am perceiving.

I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)

[VisionFromFeeling]

LightinDarkness shared on this Forum that he suffers from migraines, and that he lives not too far from me. I thought a Skeptic with migraines would be the perfect candidate to attempt the healing with, since their experience would be more reliable and be less likely to be influenced by their expectations. When I first asked LightinDarkness whether he would be willing to let me attempt the healing with him I contacted him in PM. He then said to me, in PM, that he would rather have this conversation in the public Forum. But at that time, the Moderators had closed the VFF discussion thread in order to remove inappropriate posts from it, so that is why LightinDarkness and me continued our discussion in PM rather than in the public Forum.

LightinDarkness asked me to post the PM's in the public Forum. I then asked him, in PM, to confirm that he allows me to make our PM's public. I asked by saying that if he objects, he should let me know... I asked it in this way, because he had already wanted us to make the PM's public.

[Hokulele]

Do you understand the difference between posting those in public here at the JREF forums in order to continue a conversation and posting them on your website?

[VisionFromFeeling]

If I do something, it is wrong. If I don't do it, it is wrong. You are upset with me for posting the PM's. Meanwhile LightinDarkness accuses me of not posting all of the PM's.

You Forum Skeptics are just never happy. You just want to argue.

[Hokulele]

If I do something, it is wrong. If I don't do it, it is wrong. You are upset with me for posting the PM's. Meanwhile LightinDarkness accuses me of not posting all of the PM's.

You Forum Skeptics are just never happy. You just want to argue.


That wasn't my question. Do you understand the difference between what LightinDarkness agreed to in the PMs and the actions you took?

[Farencue]

And then you hid by not wanting to have a live chat with me.

I am a deeply caring and compassionate individual and none of what I do is for my own purposes.

....trust me I hate woo that hurts people, however this is not such a case

....don't hide away like UncaYimmy is doing right now because things didn't work out the way he had intended.

Your judgement won't be affected by wishful thinking and as long as you are not lying, your accounts of any changes in your migraine condition would be very reliable.

You would be hailed as the wonderful skeptic who falsified a claim of woo.

I do realize the possibility that you might not be an objective skeptic, and that if you really do experience relief in your migraines you might not want to tell us.

I would be eternally grateful. If you do have a reason to decline, please make sure it is a good one....

I really hope to have the chance to meet you soon and attempt the healing!

I will not drop my claim of medical perceptions based on the outcome of the attempted healing....

This is a public investigation....

If you do not want to work on documenting your migraines that is also fine but reduces the credibility of your accounts.

And please be honest.

....if you are a scary man I will bring someone too. ;)

I do acknowledge that these images might be nothing but imaginary and not related to reality.

....you can not argue that I attempted a treatment and that it would have failed.

....when I am not investigating my woo I am very passionate about conventional science.

My goal is not to become a practicing psychic.

I am not an average paranormal claimant.

My website is very valuable and will not be closed.

....a case example of woo that is experienced and not chosen

My main claim of medical perceptions will not be dropped if I fail to heal your migraines.

....two out of three could not have been a placebo because they did not know what I was doing.

Why can't you see that I am not some dangerous woo?

To me it sounds like you are doing what UncaYimmy is doing
So what is the real excuse? Afraid it might work?

While many woos are fraud and will try any trick just to get money or fame, I am a woo who did not choose woo, instead I experience woo...

....because that would ruin you as a Skeptic

I am not the one who states that claim about myself....

....especially since you are a good Skeptic.

This Skeptic does not want to take part in a test of my paranormal claim of healing migraines. This migraine healing investigation continues.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________

Wow, some words you speak Anita.

[desertgal]

LightinDarkness asked me to post the PM's in the public Forum. I then asked him, in PM, to confirm that he allows me to make our PM's public. I asked by saying that if he objects, he should let me know...

Do you understand the contradictions in your statements at all?

LiD asked you to post the PM's on the pubic forum, NOT your website.

LiD did not confirm to you that you could publish the PM's on your website. An absence of objection is not a confirmation or permission to publish private correspondence.

Now, you are simply trying to manipulate your way out of taking responsibility for doing something underhanded and sneaky, instead of simply apologizing and removing the PM's from your website. It is glaringly obvious that LiD does not want his/her PM's published on your website, and did not authorize you to publish them there.

LiD said it best: "One classless act."

[desertgal]

If I do something, it is wrong. If I don't do it, it is wrong. You are upset with me for posting the PM's. Meanwhile LightinDarkness accuses me of not posting all of the PM's.

You Forum Skeptics are just never happy. You just want to argue.

The victim act doesn't work here, Anita. We know it for the lie that it is.

[LightinDarkness]

Dear LightinDarkness, in those several PM's between you and me, that I have subsequently posted on my website at migraines.html (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html), it was you who suggested that we take our conversation into the public Forum. At that time, however, the public thread that discusses my claims was temporarily closed by the Moderators and that is why you and I were corresponding in PM about the migraine test. I also mentioned at least once and probably more than once, in our PM's, that if you were to object against me making our correspondence public, please notify me.

I had no reason to expect you to object to me making our PM's public.

ETA: I am not doing this for attention toward myself. I am bringing attention to some interesting experiences, that some other paranormal claimants also claim to experience. I still feel that I made the right choice by making my experience and investigation public, even if it annoys some of you Skeptics.

At no time did I ask you to post my PMs even on this website, I told you that you should take the conversation topic public - even if you misinterpreted what I said as permission to post the PMs, it was not permission to post it on your website.

Also, I certainly posted every single PM between you and me. I made very sure of that. And I don't think that any of your PM's made me look bad. Please read the PM's again and confirm if any of them were missing.

Certainly, if you were to tell me that you have changed your mind about making our conversation public, I will of course remove the PM's from my website.

As usual, Anita, you demonstrate yourself to be who you really are - a nasty troll and a fraud. At no time did I ever tell you to publish my PMs, and as you know I was talking about you making a public proclamation of your giving up the woo upon failing the test. Neither my implicit or explicit permission was given, nor did you ever notify me that you were doing this until I was PMed about this thread.

At no time did you ask me if you wanted to splatter a PRIVATE MESSAGE over your propaganda site. You didn't even post all of them.

[LightinDarkness]

LightinDarkness, PLEASE do not go anywhere near this crazy, sick, twisted woowoo. It has gone way past the harmless stage now.
Moderators, I realise you may not like this post but I urge you to go to the link and see what you are allowing here on this forum.
if Anita was my child she would be getting a smack across the backside. How dare you harrass LightinDarkness this way?

I have to say I think Anita's increasing delusions are making her possibly dangerous. Although we can't diagnose anyone over the internet, this sort of obsessive behavior is very odd. I seriously worry whats going to happen if someone confronts her in person (instead of over the internet where she can hide) and shows her that she does not have supernatural powers. She might snap.

Again, Anita, you choose to plaster yourself over the internet because you crave attention and want to advertise to the world about how special you are. That's fine - its your choice. Its not mine or anyone elses, and anything that is sent to you in a PRIVATE MESSAGE should stay that way unless explicit permission is given otherwise.

[LightinDarkness]

LightinDarkness shared on this Forum that he suffers from migraines, and that he lives not too far from me. I thought a Skeptic with migraines would be the perfect candidate to attempt the healing with, since their experience would be more reliable and be less likely to be influenced by their expectations.

For a self-proclaimed science student, what would 1 test of your self-proclaimed healing superpower prove? Nothing, really. A test that is not blind on one subject proves nothing either way.


When I first asked LightinDarkness whether he would be willing to let me attempt the healing with him I contacted him in PM. He then said to me, in PM, that he would rather have this conversation in the public Forum. But at that time, the Moderators had closed the VFF discussion thread in order to remove inappropriate posts from it, so that is why LightinDarkness and me continued our discussion in PM rather than in the public Forum.

Preserved to show that you KNEW what you were doing. I said the conversation should take place in the forum thread, that does NOT equal giving you permission to post my PRIVATE MESSAGES anywhere. You just demonstrated you know what I said was not permission to do what you did, but you did it anyways.

Have you no shame?


LightinDarkness asked me to post the PM's in the public Forum. I then asked him, in PM, to confirm that he allows me to make our PM's public. I asked by saying that if he objects, he should let me know... I asked it in this way, because he had already wanted us to make the PM's public.

Are you just making things up as you go along now? I never told you you could post my PM's anywhere, much less your website, and I never gave you permission to do anything. Playing games of making me "opt-out" of your plastering of my PMs is classless - like most people, I ignore all PMs from you now. I never even read it and you knew that.

I see VFF still has paragraphs about me on her site, but has at least removed the PMs. You need to remove the entire thing because I don't even want my nickname associated with you. Remove it all and let the thread die.

[Uncayimmy]

From VFF's site (emphasis mine):
LightinDarkness has declined taking part in the test where I attempt to heal his migraines. To give the best and unaltered version of this Skeptic's reasoning behind his choice, earlier I posted the correspondence that took place between us. He now objects and so I have removed the PM's. I will provide a summary of the conversation later on, since our correspondence was by no means intended as private, it was LightinDarkness who had asked us to discuss it in the public forum but the discussion page was at that time closed while moderators removed inappropriate posts, so the only reason our conversation was done in PM (private messages) was because the Forum was closed. Not because it was private.

[Audible Click]

LightnDarkness screen name should be redacted from the VfF website. He does not want his s/n used in any way on Anita's website, she does not have to use his s/n in the summary she is planning to write, just call him the Skeptic.

[Agatha]

...it was LightinDarkness who had asked us to discuss it in the public forum but the discussion page was at that time closed while moderators removed inappropriate posts, so the only reason our conversation was done in PM (private messages) was because the Forum was closed. Not because it was private. (emphasis mine)

To the casual observer, this would imply that the forum was down, rather than one thread being temporarily inaccessible.

VisionFromFeeling
Feel free to apply skepticism and call me a liar and a fraud.

You're a liar and a fraud.

[desertgal]

LightnDarkness screen name should be redacted from the VfF website. He does not want his s/n used in any way on Anita's website, she does not have to use his s/n in the summary she is planning to write, just call him the Skeptic.

That's it. If LiD doesn't want his screen name on her website, Anita should courteously remove it.

It's just that simple. Too complex for Anita to understand, perhaps, but still very simple.

To the casual observer, this would imply that the forum was down, rather than one thread being temporarily inaccessible.

Yep. She's just inventing excuses.

[pakeha]

I've just gone around to VfF's website and as of the time of posting, LightnDarkness's name is still up.
I don't understand this.
If VfF has time to post here, then obviously there's time in her life to correct a wrong, inadvertant as it may have been on her part.

[Akhenaten]

I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)

I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)
I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)
I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)
I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)
I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)
I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)
I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)
I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)
I have already discussed these past experiences with attempted healing in this Forum so I don't need to repeat myself. :)



etc.

[jhunter1163]

Maybe LiD should post something saying something like "Anita, permission for you to use my name, our PMs, or anything associated with me on your website is hereby revoked." In a large colorful font, maybe.

Not that there should be any doubt that LiD doesn't want that stuff up there, but maybe she needs to see it in big letters.

[Ashles]

Not that there should be any doubt that LiD doesn't want that stuff up there, but maybe she needs to see it in big letters.


We currently associate things written by her in large font as being invariably untrue - maybe she does too.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Dear LightinDarkness,

I would like to ask again whether you would be willing to let me try the migraine treatment with you. The improvements that coincided with the attempted treatment with another person were dramatic and immediate. He went from having a minimum of 12 migraines a month to having only two for the month that followed and then another two for the second month after that. And he claims that his condition had been constantly worsening for years without any periodical improvement. He reports, that the few migraines he did have after the treatment were also milder and lasting shorter amounts of time. I remain skeptical and choose not to take his testimony as evidence. But I have to try again with another person to see whether this will happen again.

A Skeptic is the optimal subject for this test. Your assessment would be less likely to be affected by your expectations or emotions. If skeptical investigation is in your interest, and if you would find this test worthy of your time. If the treatment fails, you would have contributed to falsifying a paranormal claim. And if the treatment seems successful, you have gained an improvement in your migraine condition.

I need to investigate this since if I were able to offer relief for migraines I would certainly need to establish that ability for the sake of those that suffer from migraines. I am headed toward a career in conventional medicine and my incentive to investigate is not based on personal gain.

Please reconsider.

VFF

[bookitty]

Dear LightinDarkness,

I would like to ask again whether you would be willing to let me try the migraine treatment with you. The improvements that coincided with the attempted treatment with another person were dramatic and immediate. He went from having a minimum of 12 migraines a month to having only two for the month that followed and then another two for the second month after that. And he claims that his condition had been constantly worsening for years without any periodical improvement. He reports, that the few migraines he did have after the treatment were also milder and lasting shorter amounts of time. I remain skeptical and choose not to take his testimony as evidence. But I have to try again with another person to see whether this will happen again.

A Skeptic is the optimal subject for this test. Your assessment would be less likely to be affected by your expectations or emotions. If skeptical investigation is in your interest, and if you would find this test worthy of your time. If the treatment fails, you would have contributed to falsifying a paranormal claim. And if the treatment seems successful, you have gained an improvement in your migraine condition.

I need to investigate this since if I were able to offer relief for migraines I would certainly need to establish that ability for the sake of those that suffer from migraines. I am headed toward a career in conventional medicine and my incentive to investigate is not based on personal gain.

Please reconsider.

VFF

Why is this not a private message?

[desertgal]

I am headed toward a career in conventional medicine and my incentive to investigate is not based on personal gain...


...just self aggrandizement and a need for attention.

(Fixed it for you, LiD.)

"Me, me, me. I, I, I." Arm waving and all that...

[Audible Click]

VfF, you still have LightnDarkness's screen name on your webpage and he asked you to take it down weeks ago.

[fromdownunder]

Dear LightinDarkness,

*snip*



So have you lost the hots for detecting missing kidneys, and is it no longer your major claim which you are dedicated to developing a protocol for, in lieu of dropping everything else for the time being? That is all anybody is waiting for.

I specifically mention this, as the people you wish to do this test with you are waiting on you specifically - protocol, time, date. Simple really. Why divert attention from your number one *rising with a bullet* talent?

Is a Migraine test just another blind alley? What about detecting diaphrams? Was that just another blind alley, since you raised it after telling everybody that you were only interested in kidney tests?

This is a question, not an insult. Has it ever occured to you that you may be just an attention whore? If not, here is a (shouted) thought. Make a claim, develop a protocol, and stick with it. STOP FISHING FOR ATTENTION!

Norm

[Ashles]

Dear LightinDarkness,

I would like to ask again whether you would be willing to let me try the migraine treatment with you. The improvements that coincided with the attempted treatment with another person were dramatic and immediate. He went from having a minimum of 12 migraines a month to having only two for the month that followed and then another two for the second month after that. And he claims that his condition had been constantly worsening for years without any periodical improvement. He reports, that the few migraines he did have after the treatment were also milder and lasting shorter amounts of time. I remain skeptical and choose not to take his testimony as evidence. But I have to try again with another person to see whether this will happen again.

A Skeptic is the optimal subject for this test. Your assessment would be less likely to be affected by your expectations or emotions. If skeptical investigation is in your interest, and if you would find this test worthy of your time. If the treatment fails, you would have contributed to falsifying a paranormal claim. And if the treatment seems successful, you have gained an improvement in your migraine condition.

I need to investigate this since if I were able to offer relief for migraines I would certainly need to establish that ability for the sake of those that suffer from migraines. I am headed toward a career in conventional medicine and my incentive to investigate is not based on personal gain.

Please reconsider.

VFF


I'm sorry Anita - this is not your main claim, nor your 'strongest ability'.

Please focus on the Kidney Detection claim as you have youself repeatedly requested. And especially as that is the one you and IIG are apparently working towards a protocol on.

The Migraine test breaches ethics on unlicensed treatment of medical conditions.
So you can't do it.

And we all know how strict you are about not breaching any US laws.

Tell you what - contact the American Medical Association, ask them if you have their permission to proceed, and then we can discuss the Migraine Treatment test further.
I'm sure you will be as keen to do that as you were to contact all the Park Services about your other test.

Since you are always so careful to play by the rules...

[StevenCalder]

Dear LightinDarkness,
I need to investigate this since if I were able to offer relief for migraines I would certainly need to establish that ability for the sake of those that suffer from migraines.


Speaking on behalf of all Migraine sufferers everywhere, as I am entitled to do as Lord and Regent of Migraine land, we as a people are totally fine with you not bothering with this and sticking with your kidney test.

Once you've shown you can do that, you can come back to the Migraines as im sure people will be lining up round your door with nobel peace prizes and the like. I will be first in line. In the mean time im sure we can muddle through with medical science.

(Yay first post on the JREFF!)

[Hokulele]

Welcome, StevenCalder.

[JoeTheJuggler]

Also welcome, Steven.

Be warned, though, that VFF threads are apt to cause migraines.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Why is this [message to LightinDarkness] not a private message?Because LightinDarkness wanted our discussion about a possible attempted migraine treatment to be taken into the "public forum". If I do something, it is wrong. And if I don't do it, it is wrong. So I'll just do one or the other and everyone will be upset either way. :confused:

VfF, you still have LightnDarkness's screen name on your webpage and he asked you to take it down weeks ago.My inquiry into the migraine treatment is an open investigation. Even LightinDarkness used to think so.

So have you lost the hots for detecting missing kidneys, and is it no longer your major claim which you are dedicated to developing a protocol for, in lieu of dropping everything else for the time being? That is all anybody is waiting for.Not at all. I am waiting for the IIG to get back with me about our protocol for the kidney detection test. This migraine thing is just something I do on the side and it does not introduce delay to the kidney test.

I specifically mention this, as the people you wish to do this test with you are waiting on you specifically - protocol, time, date. Simple really. Why divert attention from your number one *rising with a bullet* talent?And I have given all of that to the IIG.

Is a Migraine test just another blind alley? What about detecting diaphrams? Was that just another blind alley, since you raised it after telling everybody that you were only interested in kidney tests?There won't be a diaphragm test. There will be a kidney test. There might be a migraine test.

This is a question, not an insult. Has it ever occured to you that you may be just an attention whore? If not, here is a (shouted) thought. Make a claim, develop a protocol, and stick with it. STOP FISHING FOR ATTENTION!It is not for attention. I apologize if I am choosing to involve skeptics in a paranormal investigation. I thought that they were available as a resource for that. For protocol discussions, as subjects, as observers. Should I just test myself? On myself?

Please focus on the Kidney Detection claim as you have youself repeatedly requested. And especially as that is the one you and IIG are apparently working towards a protocol on.
Ashles, I am focusing on the kidney test. All I can do at this point is wait while a local Skeptics group is contacting the IIG about a possible preliminary test and until the IIG gets back with me about the protocol. What you should say, since you are so suspicious, is that they are delaying and avoiding having a test.

The Migraine test breaches ethics on unlicensed treatment of medical conditions. So you can't do it. And we all know how strict you are about not breaching any US laws.I would say to the persons that what I am about to do is to be expected to have absolutely no effect. I do not refer to myself as a therapist or as being licensed. I do not charge any money. All it is is I offer a free gentle massage (I specify "gentle", since it involves no skeletal manipulation or other obviously potentially harmful techniques). It is just like offering a hug to someone who is sad. And it just might, for what ever reason, have effect.

Tell you what - contact the American Medical Association, ask them if you have their permission to proceed, and then we can discuss the Migraine Treatment test further.
I'm sure you will be as keen to do that as you were to contact all the Park Services about your other test.I have already contacted the NC Board of Massage & Bodywork Therapy.

StevenCalder, you do not speak on behalf of all migraine sufferers. Sorry. If someone wants me to try, they may.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Any people who are missing a kidney and are available for a kidney detection test? (If so, do not reveal who you are or if you know of someone do not reveal anything about them so to not give them away. You/they would have to contact a Skeptics group and have no communication with me about it.)

Any people who suffer from migraines and are available for a migraine healing test?

There are two claims here that are ready to be falsified or verified.

[Audible Click]

LightnDarkness screen name should be redacted from the VfF website. He does not want his s/n used in any way on Anita's website, she does not have to use his s/n in the summary she is planning to write, just call him the Skeptic.



My inquiry into the migraine treatment is an open investigation. Even LightinDarkness used to think so.



That is not an answer to my question. Read the highlighted part of my question and attempt an answer.

[StevenCalder]

It is not for attention. I apologize if I am choosing to involve skeptics in a paranormal investigation. I thought that they were available as a resource for that. For protocol discussions, as subjects, as observers. Should I just test myself? On myself?


Ahhhh


Why a paranormal investigation? Why not just an investigation?

Good question. Perhaps since one of the possible conclusions on my list is extrasensory perception. To my knowledge, no extrasensory perception or paranormal ability has been verified as existing by science, so obviously it is not reasonable to expect a paranormal occurrence. But in the way that I experience the medical perceptions, to me I am not guessing, I am not inventing, I am not imagining, to me I am feeling vibrational patterns, and visual images form as a result, and I confirm compelling correlation with the real world. Perhaps since "paranormal" could mean so many things, since I do not quite know what hypothesis to form based on my experience. Many say this is not reminiscent of known expressions of synesthesia. Regardless of what the investigation is called, paranormal investigation, psychology investigation, or something else, I am sure that the final outcome will be the same.


A very vague definition of 'Paranomal Investigation', loads of wiggle room. But seems to be essentionally;


Normal sciencetific inquiry has never detected esp.
I am definitely not wrong about my esp.
Therefore a sciencetific inquiry is ill-equipped to test me.


Why didn't you say from the start (your very first thread!) you weren't looking to be scientifically verified?

As I said in the other thread at stopVFF, your a time waster with a severe history of dodging help. Don't be suprised if you've worn out your reliability, your are unlikely to get lines of new volunteers here to test your "mental hug" on.

Get back to us with the verifiable data, until then I think were done.

ETA: Thanks for the welcomes guys :)

[desertgal]

It is not for attention. I apologize if I am choosing to involve skeptics in a paranormal investigation. I thought that they were available as a resource for that. For protocol discussions, as subjects, as observers. Should I just test myself? On myself?

Pretending that you haven't been given any help here towards protocols, studies, etc. is pretty insulting to the people here and with FACT who HAVE helped you.

Ashles, I am focusing on the kidney test. All I can do at this point is wait while a local Skeptics group is contacting the IIG about a possible preliminary test and until the IIG gets back with me about the protocol. What you should say, since you are so suspicious, is that they are delaying and avoiding having a test.
Why should Ashles lie about the IIG?

All it is is I offer a free gentle massage (I specify "gentle", since it involves no skeletal manipulation or other obviously potentially harmful techniques). It is just like offering a hug to someone who is sad. And it just might, for what ever reason, have effect.

All it is, is some sort of visualization in my mind that I think interacts with the person, and a gentle massage that certainly does produce relief to a migraine condition.Link (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/1/aft/133/afv/topic/afpg/4/Default.aspx)
You can't even get your story straight from one forum to the next.

You...
...feel free to apply skepticism and call me a liar and a fraud.
...are a liar and a fraud, and probably the only brown eyed Swede most of us will ever encounter. Hopefully, your threads here will continue to be largely ignored.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2433/vffattentionwhore2.jpg
http://yfrog.com/16vffattentionwhore2j

[jhunter1163]

Desertgal wins the thread. That's WAAAAAAY better than my idea for a "steakslap" emoticon.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Lifelong migraineur here, and I would be hard pressed to let an obviously abusive and complete incommunicado anywhere near my poor head after seeing how LiD has fared in your supposedly "friendly" hands. I'd rather be "hugged" by a kodiak bear.

[jhunter1163]

I've suffered from migraines for years and I have no idea how one would measure the supposed effectiveness of VfF's "treatment". My doc had me keep a diary of them; how long they lasted, visual or "normal" (I get both kinds), etc. The thing is, it would be completely subjective as to whether I got "better" after the treatment. Any variation in frequency could just be due to random chance. I've gone weeks without one, and I've had them on consecutive days (I don't normally get more than one a day, thank FSM).

So, like I said, completely subjective. This is a blind alley, folks. Back to checking for kidneys.

[desertgal]

Out of curiosity-I've never had migraines, but I've known people who do, and I've always had the impression that, since the least movement causes pain, the last thing they want is to be touched/massaged. I would think that would just heighten the pain. Is that accurate?

[jhunter1163]

Out of curiosity-I've never had migraines, but I've known people who do, and I've always had the impression that, since the least movement causes pain, the last thing they want is to be touched/massaged. I would think that would just heighten the pain. Is that accurate?

I think it probably varies from person to person. For me, light bothers me way more than touch when I'm having a migraine, though I'd just as soon not have either. I can best describe the pain as feeling like someone has hit me with a hammer just above my left eye.

[StevenCalder]

Out of curiosity-I've never had migraines, but I've known people who do, and I've always had the impression that, since the least movement causes pain, the last thing they want is to be touched/massaged. I would think that would just heighten the pain. Is that accurate?

Im not sure it would heighten the pain per-se, its not like my head is ever sore to the touch. So applied pressure would not create additional pain.

However for me certainly I get uncontrollably dizzy and nauseous, even moving around near me let alone rubbing my head and telling my about dark vibrational energy is likely to make me more stressed and increase my symptoms and get objects thrown at you for good measure.

I can't say for sure that extends to all other migraineurs tho, some may like a little head rub. :)

[Ashles]

I have already contacted the NC Board of Massage & Bodywork Therapy.

Who carry precisely zero weight with regard to practising medicine.

Not a problem - if you proceed with attempting to heal anyone I will contact the American Medical Association on your behalf.

I assume that since you do not believe you are breaching any of their ethics you will have no problem with me doing this.

[Ashles]

Ashles, I am focusing on the kidney test. All I can do at this point is wait while a local Skeptics group is contacting the IIG about a possible preliminary test and until the IIG gets back with me about the protocol. What you should say, since you are so suspicious, is that they are delaying and avoiding having a test.

Why should I say that when it is blatantly obvious to everyone in the world that it is you who is delaying and avoiding having a test?

I would say to the persons that what I am about to do is to be expected to have absolutely no effect. I do not refer to myself as a therapist or as being licensed. I do not charge any money. All it is is I offer a free gentle massage (I specify "gentle", since it involves no skeletal manipulation or other obviously potentially harmful techniques). It is just like offering a hug to someone who is sad. And it just might, for what ever reason, have effect.

As might doing absolutely nothing therefore it is a stupid and pointless test.
Oops, sorry, I keep forgetting how little you understand with regard setting up a scientific protocol.

Also if a subject for whatever reason experiences an easing in their pain, they may mistakenly attribute it to your ridiculous claims.
This will create a false hope for them, may create some form of reliance on you (a completely false one similar to the way psychics create a false reliance) and bolster your own delusion.
That's the slippery slope. Soon you are charging money and are a fully fledged scam artist.

[bookitty]

Out of curiosity-I've never had migraines, but I've known people who do, and I've always had the impression that, since the least movement causes pain, the last thing they want is to be touched/massaged. I would think that would just heighten the pain. Is that accurate?

As Steven said, pressure on my head wouldn't necessarily be bad. I use heavy cold cloths across my eyes. But (for me) dealing with the pain of a migraine is like balancing on a tightrope over an abyss. Every movement, every glance, every sound is dangerous. Even moving my eyes can make things worse.

Sitting upright in a chair while someone rubbed my head and talked would be a nightmare.

[VisionFromFeeling]

A very vague definition of 'Paranomal Investigation', loads of wiggle room. But seems to be essentionally;


Normal sciencetific inquiry has never detected esp.
I am definitely not wrong about my esp.
Therefore a sciencetific inquiry is ill-equipped to test me.


Why didn't you say from the start (your very first thread!) you weren't looking to be scientifically verified?The claims will be tested scientifically. Either falsified or verified.

As I said in the other thread at stopVFF, your a time waster with a severe history of dodging help. Don't be suprised if you've worn out your reliability, your are unlikely to get lines of new volunteers here to test your "mental hug" on.

Get back to us with the verifiable data, until then I think were done.I am being told to test things that are not my claim, and to agree to test conditions that I have never experienced the claim under (such as the endless insisting that I do a remote viewing test). I welcome advise that respects what the claim and its limitations are.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Lifelong migraineur here, and I would be hard pressed to let an obviously abusive and complete incommunicado anywhere near my poor head after seeing how LiD has fared in your supposedly "friendly" hands. I'd rather be "hugged" by a kodiak bear.Don't forget what actually happened to the man I attempted to treat for migraines.

*The migraines had gradually been getting worse over time for the past several years without temporary easier periods.
*A minimum of 12 migraines a month before treatment. After treatment only 2 for each of the two months that followed.
*Migraines lasting shorter amounts of time and less severe when they do occur, after the treatment.
*No changes in medication or other lifestyle changes were made at the time of the treatment to suggest other possible causes of the improvement. Not to say that other causes were not possible.

What exactly is so bad about all of this? You guys are just pessimistic, seeing things to complain about when there are none.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I've suffered from migraines for years and I have no idea how one would measure the supposed effectiveness of VfF's "treatment". My doc had me keep a diary of them; how long they lasted, visual or "normal" (I get both kinds), etc. The thing is, it would be completely subjective as to whether I got "better" after the treatment. Any variation in frequency could just be due to random chance. I've gone weeks without one, and I've had them on consecutive days (I don't normally get more than one a day, thank FSM).

So, like I said, completely subjective. This is a blind alley, folks. Back to checking for kidneys.The changes to his migraine condition right after the attempted treatment were dramatic. Question is what caused it. That is why I want to try again with another person to see if the attempted treatment will consistently coincide with unexpected and noticeable improvement. I need to find out, because if I can help these people I would feel obliged to. They are already trying everything conventional and alternative medicine can offer.

[desertgal]

Don't forget what actually happened to the man I attempted to treat for migraines.

*The migraines had gradually been getting worse over time for the past several years without temporary easier periods.
*A minimum of 12 migraines a month before treatment. After treatment only 2 for each of the two months that followed.
*Migraines lasting shorter amounts of time and less severe when they do occur, after the treatment.
*No changes in medication or other lifestyle changes were made at the time of the treatment to suggest other possible causes of the improvement.

"Actually happened"? We don't know that actually happened. Anecdotal evidence is not proof. That has only been explained to you about 4,000 times.

What exactly is so bad about all of this? You guys are just pessimistic, seeing things to complain about when there are none.

And you are a liar and a fraud.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Why should I say that when it is blatantly obvious to everyone in the world that it is you who is delaying and avoiding having a test?I am absolutely not delaying. The IIG and me are discussing the protocol. And as for a migraine test all I need are volunteers.

Also if a subject for whatever reason experiences an easing in their pain, they may mistakenly attribute it to your ridiculous claims.Absolutely not. You have no idea how exhaustively I was searching for another explanation to why his migraine condition got better and I still don't conclude that I had anything to do with it. Which is why I need to try again with other people. I'd even want to have a test where some will receive an authentic attempt of treatment and others will receive a blank treatment and nobody is told which they receive. But that requires several volunteers. Ashles why don't you suggest how I can find volunteers for a migraine healing test?

This will create a false hope for them, may create some form of reliance on you (a completely false one similar to the way psychics create a false reliance) and bolster your own delusion.
That's the slippery slope. Soon you are charging money and are a fully fledged scam artist.No because I say that the treatment should be expected to be uneffective. Also if I involve a test where they know that some of them won't receive an authentic treatment, they can not have the same expectations as if I promised to them that it would be effective. I tell them to rely on conventional medicine. And I have no delusion regarding what he said was his improvement in the migraines, and of course I know that he could have been lying. And I'm headed toward a career in conventional medicine, but you already knew that.

[VisionFromFeeling]

As Steven said, pressure on my head wouldn't necessarily be bad. I use heavy cold cloths across my eyes. But (for me) dealing with the pain of a migraine is like balancing on a tightrope over an abyss. Every movement, every glance, every sound is dangerous. Even moving my eyes can make things worse.

Sitting upright in a chair while someone rubbed my head and talked would be a nightmare.I would not give the treatment during a migraine, so that would be fine. Would you volunteer to let me treat your migraines? If it fails to coincide with any obvious improvement in your migraine condition, the claim is falsified.

[jhunter1163]

The changes to his migraine condition right after the attempted treatment were dramatic. Question is what caused it. That is why I want to try again with another person to see if the attempted treatment will consistently coincide with unexpected and noticeable improvement. I need to find out, because if I can help these people I would feel obliged to. They are already trying everything conventional and alternative medicine can offer.

:steakslap:

It could have been anything, placebo effect, coincidence, who knows? Again, any "improvement" is going to be purely subjective. There's simply no way to construct anything approaching an experiment on this.

[fromdownunder]

I would not give the treatment during a migraine, so that would be fine. Would you volunteer to let me treat your migraines? If it fails to coincide with any obvious improvement in your migraine condition, the claim is falsified.

So, what is your protocol to determine exactly how effective your treatment would be? It's not like migraines occur once a week like clockwork. If you are testing while somebody is NOT having a migraine, then you are not testing anything.

How many months of records would you want? How many times would you need to "treat" somebody? How reliant on any previous records would you be so that you can graph the progress? You would need somebody with a complete history of how many, how often and how bad, and then a record of "post treatment" migraines.

Do you really think that any normal person will submit to this sort of thing?

Giving somebody one "treatment" and then deciding if it works or not is nothing more than a joke.

Norm

[bookitty]

I would not give the treatment during a migraine, so that would be fine. Would you volunteer to let me treat your migraines? If it fails to coincide with any obvious improvement in your migraine condition, the claim is falsified.

What if they got worse?

You have already been given several very concise reasons why such a test is not scientifically accurate, would prove nothing at all and is a waste of time.

You are asking for guinea pigs for a scientifically unproven & unethical medical experiment. Everyone knows you get the Fortress Of Evil first, then you can start with the whole "They laughed when I said I could see kidneys! Bwahahahaha!" shtick.

[LightinDarkness]

Because LightinDarkness wanted our discussion about a possible attempted migraine treatment to be taken into the "public forum". If I do something, it is wrong. And if I don't do it, it is wrong. So I'll just do one or the other and everyone will be upset either way. :confused:


How dare you lie again? We've been over this before. At no time did I ever give you permission to post any PRIVATE MESSAGE I SENT YOU. Never. I suggested that we stop conversing in private and you post in the thread instead of talking to me, that does not equal posting my private messages here or somewhere else. I have repeatedly requested that you remove all references to me from your website, and you have declined to do so. You are a liar, a fraud, and completely without class. This, by the way, is exactly why no sane person would ever agree to your tests. You can't even handle simple requests to remove CLEARLY private messages from your website because you love attention whoring too much to do so.


My inquiry into the migraine treatment is an open investigation. Even LightinDarkness used to think so.

Liar. This is not a open inquiry - you cannot heal people of migraines and harassing people with migraines over PM and then posting them on your website without my permission and refusing to take them down shows that you are doing nothing but attention whoring.

[Sun Countess]

Would you volunteer to let me treat your migraines?
Treat? I'm still having trouble distinguishing a "study" from a "test," and now you're offering actual treatments. Like a medical practitioner, except without a license.

[LightinDarkness]

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2433/vffattentionwhore2.jpg
http://yfrog.com/16vffattentionwhore2j

This is great. I think this should be posted on the front page of stop VFF and we can upgrade/downgrade levels weekly or so!

[blue sock monkey]

Why do I have the awful feeling that Desertgal's splendid warning system may need even more colors before the VfF threads here on the JREF Forum wind to a close?

[StevenCalder]

I am being told to test things that are not my claim, and to agree to test conditions that I have never experienced the claim under (such as the endless insisting that I do a remote viewing test). I welcome advise that respects what the claim and its limitations are.

Those damn skeptics! Holding you down and preventing you from taking tests with their damn words! It must be so hard for you to get around to doing things.

You've had hundreds of incredibly simple protocols which if your powers worked the way you said in your anecdotal evidence, would work under test conditions. When push comes to shove, you just move on to the next claim, your a time waster.


I would not give the treatment during a migraine, so that would be fine. Would you volunteer to let me treat your migraines? If it fails to coincide with any obvious improvement in your migraine condition, the claim is falsified.

Its been explained before why people don't want to engage with you on this many times, but Ill sumarise again;

Your history shows you to be untrustworthy.
People of paranormal persuasion rarely truly falsify claims, but spin the claim into an anecdotal story, and given your history "I will falsify it this time, honest" doesn't really hold water.
Mirgaines and most chronic pain conditions are subject to random fluctations and therefore very difficult to test, requiring massive datasets and months and months of record keeping to make any kind of conclusion. Essentially your requiring a massive commitment from a skeptic to keep records for every day of their life for an extended peroid of time.
You don't understand that even if your story were true one coincedence means nothing, and the recovery's most likely cause was something else (incorrect diagnosis etc etc) which you have declined to investigate in favor of your own super powers. You've skipped the likely answers and gone straight for the ones you like.
If your ability were real, playing with untested un-understood vibrational energys within someones brain with the proviso that you would "feel" if something bad would happen is reckless and down right stupid. Imagine if a surgeon came up to you and said "Look I have no idea what I'm doing, but im sure I'll be able to tell if somethings going to go wrong".
You don't seem to understand the moral implications of the above.
No one likes to go meet strangers who claim to be able to strange things and are in all likelyhood slightly unhinged, especially ones who are untrustworthy.
Your history shows you to be untrustworthy.


And there a many more reasons, which you should be familar with by now

Put it simply, there are many people on these boards as you have seen who really have terrible migraines and hate them. And through the way you have conducted yourself they are unwilling to be "healed" by you. That should say alot about the way you've acted. Essentially I think you've burned you bridges. Or napalmed them.

Get back to us with some data (remeber as fromdownunder says, and as I've told you before: if your doing the migraine test your going to need a very large data set, I'd say atleast 3 months before hand and 3 months after). See you in 6 months time!

[Drs_Res]

The claims will be tested scientifically. Either falsified or verified.

I am being told to test things that are not my claim, and to agree to test conditions that I have never experienced the claim under (such as the endless insisting that I do a remote viewing test). I welcome advise that respects what the claim and its limitations are.

No one asked you to do a "remote viewing test", so please stop using that wording.

Thank you.

[desertgal]

Why do I have the awful feeling that Desertgal's splendid warning system may need even more colors before the VfF threads here on the JREF Forum wind to a close?

I'm not sure there are that many colors in the world. :D

[Ashles]

I am absolutely not delaying. The IIG and me are discussing the protocol.

Well more likely they are waiting for you to propose a scientifically stringent protocol.
Which as we have said many, many times, will never happen.

And as for a migraine test all I need are volunteers.

No, this is not your main claim or your strongest claim, or an ethical claim.
So no you won't be getting them, and any attempt to 'treat' people with medical conditions (without supervision from a University or at least medically qualified professionals) will result in your being reported to the North Carolina Medical Board.

Absolutely not. You have no idea how exhaustively I was searching for another explanation to why his migraine condition got better

And the simplest one - that they disappear on their own - was still beyond you?
You may want to look up the word 'exhaustively'. It doesn't actually mean the same as 'badly'.

Oh and you still seem to be labouring under the impression that we believe your story as presented. Some of us don't.

and I still don't conclude that I had anything to do with it. [quote]

Anyway it doesn't matter as migraine relief is not your main claim, not your 'strongest claim' and you've only done it once and you haven't even concluded it was anything to do with you.

Much better to test your amazing medical imaging which has worked allegedly so many times and, according to you, never been wrong.

[quote]Which is why I need to try again with other people. I'd even want to have a test where some will receive an authentic attempt of treatment and others will receive a blank treatment and nobody is told which they receive.

Well I'm afraid Anita doesn't always get what Anita wants.
Especially when you want the health and medical conditions of others to be your playthings.

But that requires several volunteers. Ashles why don't you suggest how I can find volunteers for a migraine healing test?

Because (starts typing very slowly in the hope this time the message will get through) You Should Not Be Doing A Migraine Test.
That's why.
Steven Calder has given you several reasons why it is unsuitable. not least of which is the massive amount of data you would need to generate. Not a half hearted, unscientific 'Oh now I'm bored of that' approach like every other pretense at a test you have performed (or suggested).

And aside from anything else it is unethical for you to carry one out. So you will get absolutely no support from me in setting up such a test.
Believe me, quite the opposite. I will report any attempt by you to treat anyone's migraines.

No because I say that the treatment should be expected to be uneffective. Also if I involve a test where they know that some of them won't receive an authentic treatment, they can not have the same expectations as if I promised to them that it would be effective. I tell them to rely on conventional medicine. And I have no delusion regarding what he said was his improvement in the migraines, and of course I know that he could have been lying. And I'm headed toward a career in conventional medicine, but you already knew that.

I'm afrid I never know which fantasy career you are planning from day to day. I thought it was becoming an expert in optics. Then it was inventing your own branch of science called Vibrational Algebra or something. Then you would be a Nobel prize winning scientist for research into yourself and your own abilities.
Today it's conventional medicine? Jolly good.

Word of warning - getting yourself in trouble with the North Carolina Medical Board before you have even started along such a career path would not be a great beginning.
Silly that you would risk so much just to get attention, when the migraine treatment is not even your 'strongest ability'.

Why can't you just can't step back and wait for the IIG test?
Or what about attempting to test anything that simply wouldn't breach medical ethics (i.e. about 30 other claims you have made).
It doesn't matter if you fail those tests, all new information would be useful and you just want to learn the truth - so you keep telling us.

Do you always have to be generating new untestable claims just for the attention?
That really is a very worrying compulsion Anita and it really is now risking you getting into trouble.

If you are genuinely thinking about a career you need to drop any intention of treating people with migraines. Now.
It doesn't matter if you precede it with disclaimers or not.
This isn't a game - this is the health of other human beings.

If you want to test your claimed abilities start with any of the many non-human tests you could carry out, or restrict yourself to the kidney claim with IIG.

You are dangerously close to crossing a line just to feed your own craving for attention.

[Ashles]

There's simply no way to construct anything approaching an experiment on this.

Hence why it is the only test Anita is currently prepared to discuss.

It can't be easily tested, it wouldn't yield any useful data, you can't ethically even perform the test, any result could be spun to be interpreted any way you like... it's perfect for Anita.

If we turned around and said "Sure here's two hundred volunteers, here's a tight scientific protocol, the North Carolina Medical Board phoned - they don't care. Off you go." she'd abandon this thread so quickly it would make our heads spin.

Then a new claim would be generated, one even harder to test.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I'm not doing any of this for attention. In fact I do not like the attention I am being given, it is very negative and hostile. I am here because of the two very interesting paranormal claims that I am investigating. If you don't like to see those claims get attention, do not give them any attention. As for personal attacks, we should try to look at the subject (the claims) and not the person (claimant).

I hope one day you people see how rude and hostile you have been as I have done nothing wrong.

[bookitty]

I'm not doing any of this for attention. In fact I do not like the attention I am being given, it is very negative and hostile. I am here because of the two very interesting paranormal claims that I am investigating. If you don't like to see those claims get attention, do not give them any attention. As for personal attacks, we should try to look at the subject (the claims) and not the person (claimant).

I hope one day you people see how rude and hostile you have been as I have done nothing wrong.

This forum is shockingly accepting. Most of the people here are willing to suspend disbelief in order to help claimants find a logical and fair test. They are patient beyond measure. The help they have offered you is no different. You have been given hours and hours of people's time.

You've wasted this kindness on lies, misdirection and back-tracking. Recently you have tried to make the board party to your unethical experiments.

Now you are complaining that people aren't being nice? You were already given far more respect than you could ever earn.

[desertgal]

I'm not doing any of this for attention. In fact I do not like the attention I am being given, it is very negative and hostile.

Get used to it. It's generally the only kind of attention you will receive as long as you continue to show yourself to be a liar, a fraud, and an attention junkie.

I am here because of the two very interesting paranormal claims that I am investigating.Very interesting to whom? Your claims are nothing but fantasy, which most people here have recognized.

If you don't like to see those claims get attention, do not give them any attention.I think that's a great idea. Personally, from reading the responses, I think most of us would prefer to see your threads die a natural death. Unfortunately, you will continue to revive them, or offer new claims, in your quest for attention, and then whine when people don't respond the way you want them to.

As for personal attacks, we should try to look at the subject (the claims) and not the person (claimant). We are. Everyone here is simply addressing the claims you repeatedly offer. But, this is really the pot calling the kettle black, since you only see skeptics as "resources" and have referred to unknown future fellow scientists as "parasites".

I hope one day you people see how rude and hostile you have been as I have done nothing wrong.Well, I'm sure in your little fantasy world, dishonesty, unethical experiments, racism, bigotry, and attention whoring are A-okay, but that is generally not the way it works in the real world.

You can keep saying you aren't doing this for attention, but that isn't going to make anyone here believe that.

Do you want some cheese with your whine?

[NoZed Avenger]

Why do I have the awful feeling that Desertgal's splendid warning system may need even more colors before the VfF threads here on the JREF Forum wind to a close?

"They've gone plaid."

[fromdownunder]

I'm not doing any of this for attention. In fact I do not like the attention I am being given, it is very negative and hostile. I am here because of the two very interesting paranormal claims that I am investigating. If you don't like to see those claims get attention, do not give them any attention. As for personal attacks, we should try to look at the subject (the claims) and not the person (claimant).

I hope one day you people see how rude and hostile you have been as I have done nothing wrong.

Nonsense.

Instead of addressing the issues raised here, and nicely summarised by StevenCalder, as to WHY the Migraine test is not practical, you simply blow them away by ignoring all the pertinent facts, and post another "WAAAAHHH!!! They are not playiing nice" attention grabbing post. Have you even thought about how to develop a protocol for this claim?

Talk about the issues raised, rather than wallowing in self pity.

Norm

[Ashles]

I'm not doing any of this for attention. In fact I do not like the attention I am being given, it is very negative and hostile.

Feel free not to post here then. No-one is making you. We are discussing your claims and how you avoid testing them, and in this instance how you may be in danger of breaching ethics and laws regarding treating medical consitions without an appropriate license.
I don't see how a desire to protect the general public from unqualified girls mucking about with migraines would normally be considered to be 'negative'.

Also, if it isn't attention you are seeking here it is hard to know what you are getting out of this. You say you want help with creating protocols for testing your claims, yet you ignore all our sugestions.

You say you want feedback about your claims yet you ignore our advice when we attempt to help you avoid breaching US laws and medical ethics.

I am here because of the two very interesting paranormal claims that I am investigating.

Which two are those? It is hard to keep track. You have made about 30.

If you don't like to see those claims get attention, do not give them any attention.

Well unfortunately when paranormal claims get made that might mislead the general public, a responsible skeptic feels a responsibilty to counter those claims or at least do what they can to get them tested properly (have you noticed how we do all the work to try and get your tests to hapen, yet you do nothing but evade testing?).

It's how we try to reduce the level of lies and nonsense in the world, and how we try to encourage everyone to learn the truth about how the universe works. Whatever that truth may turn out to be.

As for personal attacks, we should try to look at the subject (the claims) and not the person (claimant).

Nice attempt to try and turn our comments into a rule breach but sadly for you they actually do address the subject.

I hope one day you people see how rude and hostile you have been as I have done nothing wrong.

Please try and look at the subject (your claims) and not the people (skeptics).

And feel free not to post here if you don't like the subjects.

But as long as you keep posting your silly claims here we will keep pointing out your contradictions, refusal to be tested and feeble attempts at generating test protocols.

[blue sock monkey]

If you don't like to see those claims get attention, do not give them any attention. As for personal attacks, we should try to look at the subject (the claims) and not the person (claimant).

I hope one day you people see how rude and hostile you have been as I have done nothing wrong.

Unfortunately, due to the nature of your claims, we have a moral obligation to give them attention.

According to your own posts, you have attempted to "treat" at least one migraine sufferer. You have actively sought more subjects for more meaningless "studies"--meaningless because treating just one or a few subjects is completely insufficient to explore this particular claim. And unless done under the proper supervision of an accredited research facility which is genuinely seeking to cure or alleviate disease, experimenting on human suffering is unethical and reprehensible. To do so for self-aggrandizement is despicable.

[Farencue]

Please pack up your picnic and go home Anita.
It is all over.

[fromdownunder]

I secifically mention this, as the people you wish to do this test with you are waiting on you specifically - protocol, time, date. Simple really. Why divert attention from your number one *rising with a bullet* talent?


And I have given all of that to the IIG.

Sorry, I missed this the last time around. Please confirm the time and date of your IIG Kidney test, since you now claim to have given these.

Norm

[StevenCalder]

I'm not doing any of this for attention. In fact I do not like the attention I am being given, it is very negative and hostile. I am here because of the two very interesting paranormal claims that I am investigating. If you don't like to see those claims get attention, do not give them any attention. As for personal attacks, we should try to look at the subject (the claims) and not the person (claimant).

I hope one day you people see how rude and hostile you have been as I have done nothing wrong.

You've wasted alot of effort people have put into to you. Go re-read your threads, the amount of people who spent huge amounts of their spare time thinking up ways for you to be recognised in the eyes of science when they would get absolutely nothing out of it and you've then spat on that and claimed that effort was what was stopping you from getting round to doing a simple test.

You have to understand that from what you've given us, you've promised tests, test results etc etc numerous times over and over and over your time and never delivered, there isn't any other conclusion we can reasonably draw at this stage. I'm sorry if you think its a personal attack, I really am, but your history shows you to be untrustworthy.

Give us something so we can see your serious about testing this time (DATA!), or move on, I've even exhausted too much time with you explaining why they've exhausted too much time with you.

[SezMe]

I am absolutely not delaying. The IIG and me are discussing the protocol.
I am in the process of getting independent verification of this claim. As soon as I have more info, I'll post it here.

[desertgal]

I am here because of the two very interesting paranormal claims that I am investigating.

You amended your description of your migraine 'treatment' to the following:
All it is is I offer a free gentle massage (I specify "gentle", since it involves no skeletal manipulation or other obviously potentially harmful techniques). It is just like offering a hug to someone who is sad.

Please tell us which part of this alleged gentle massage is paranormal? Are you now suggesting that your very touch is so miraculous that the laying on of your hands will break a lifelong pattern of migraine headaches in the 'patient'?

[bob_cadaver]

Out of curiosity-I've never had migraines, but I've known people who do, and I've always had the impression that, since the least movement causes pain, the last thing they want is to be touched/massaged. I would think that would just heighten the pain. Is that accurate?

Depends on where someone touches me; I can't stand to have my head touched when I'm having a migraine, my scalp and temple become incredibly sensitive and any touch just adds to the excruciating pain. Being touched anyplace else, like the back of my hand or if someone tried to hug me without touching my head or even my neck (the thought of a neckrub makes me queasy when migraining and I have a friend with first stage Alzheimer's who constantly forgets that and consistently offers to rub my neck when my head hurts--she means well, but good God, it gets wearing), is ok. Just don't go anywhere near my imploding/exploding skull. There are times when just trying to push down what feels like an erupting vein is too much, even when my migraine is nearing its end. Migraine is one horrid pain disorder.
Sorry to hear LiD has migraines, they're an expensive and torturous waste of time.:(

[pakeha]

...I would say to the persons that what I am about to do is to be expected to have absolutely no effect. I do not refer to myself as a therapist or as being licensed. I do not charge any money. All it is is I offer a free gentle massage (I specify "gentle", since it involves no skeletal manipulation or other obviously potentially harmful techniques). It is just like offering a hug to someone who is sad. And it just might, for what ever reason, have effect.


What is the paranormal claim here?
Have the references to LiD been taken off the webpage?

I ask these two questions because obviously VfF isn't asking people to help test something that 'just might' have an effect, is she.
And just as obviously, having a migraine sufferer's communications on the webpage, without their consent and over their strenuous objections, is a really terrible sort of publicity for a science/medicine career. Gives the impression VfF sees humans as guinea pigs.

[VisionFromFeeling]

And just as obviously, having a migraine sufferer's communications on the webpage, without their consent and over their strenuous objections, is a really terrible sort of publicity for a science/medicine career. Gives the impression VfF sees humans as guinea pigs.No! LightinDarkness specifically asked us to share any involvement between us regarding an attempted migraine treatment in the public Forum! He/she is the one who did not want us to discuss it in private messages!

And as soon as LightinDarkness announced to me that he/she had changed his/her mind about making the communication public, I respected that and promptly removed the PM messages from my website. If LightinDarkness is now asking that all references to his/her person be removed from my website as well, I will of course abide by that. But note that this reflects a change in his/her original intent.

Not to sound childish or anything, but several Forum Skeptics, including but not limited to Ashles and desertgal, have posted content from my PM's to them where I specifically asked them not to post any in the public Forum. Where I had sent them PM's to answer questions they would not stop asking, that I was not comfortable with answering publicly, but still wanted to be nice enough to answer them individually. And that was not respected. Oh well.

[VisionFromFeeling]

From my reply in a private conversation with an anonymous Forum Skeptic:

Much of this mess is based on disagreement, disbelief, and distrust toward me by the Skeptics. For instance. I really, really, really did look at Dr. Carlson and strongly, strongly perceive that he is missing a left kidney. It was one of my strongest and clearest perceptions. But I did not write it down. So it is only anecdotal and is not supported by formal evidence, and I acknowledge that. But the thing is, I am claiming to have had an experience (and I really, really did have that experience), that should not have been possible.

Skeptics of course can't believe that it could have happened, but rather than allowing me to claim to have had an experience they are insisting that it is a lie and that it did not happen and when I refuse to adopt their point of view they get upset. I can not take back my claim of having detected that a kidney was missing because it was a true experience.

If Skeptics were objective to say that there is no evidence and they can not take what I have said as truth that would be fine. But they are insisting that I am lying and that it never happened. Meanwhile I know it happened, so I can not change my statement.

That is what the mess is about.

If I fail the IIG test I will humbly and proudly announce that my claim has been falsified. You may post this in the Forums if you wish. In fact, I will.

[StevenCalder]

No! LightinDarkness specifically asked us to share any involvement between us regarding an attempted migraine treatment in the public Forum!


As has been pointed out and your fully aware of, your website is not a public forum.

Please answer this;

Sorry, I missed this the last time around. Please confirm the time and date of your IIG Kidney test, since you now claim to have given these.

Norm

[StevenCalder]

Skeptics of course can't believe that it could have happened, but rather than allowing me to claim to have had an experience they are insisting that it is a lie and that it did not happen

Are seriously surprised that skeptics who get all manor of crazy people saying all manor of crazy things require evidence for said claims? The reason the assumption is now that your lying/deluded/etc is after a huge amount of time and help you have still given no evidence!

Skeptics putting that much effort into someone for that long and them giving nothing back will breed a degree of cynicism and mistrust. Buts something you've created through your own inaction.

But you know what can solve that cynicism? Instantly? Evidence!

ETA: Evidence! Evidence! Evidence! Evidence!

[VisionFromFeeling]

Be patient then and let me have the test and you will get your evidence! Your impatience should not turn into hostility! Whether it takes me a day or a month or several months to study my claim to reach a specific claim and to design a test protocol for myself should not make any difference in the way that I am treated by people such as you! Patience! I'm not making all of this up from my own mind, the claim is based on experiences, and evidence will be based on testing!

But you know what can solve that cynicism? Instantly? Patience!

ETA: Patience! Patience! Patience! Patience!

[Agatha]

And as soon as LightinDarkness announced to me that he/she had changed his/her mind about making the communication public, I respected that and promptly removed the PM messages from my website. If LightinDarkness is now asking that all references to his/her person be removed from my website as well, I will of course abide by that. But note that this reflects a change in his/her original intent.

LiD stated in posts #2 and #27 of this thread that you did not have permission to post his/her personal information on your website; and specifically requested that you remove all such references in post #29, dated 26th August. That you have not done so is yet another demonstration of your inability to understand other people's feelings.

[StevenCalder]

ETA: Patience! Patience! Patience! Patience!

If your going to claim that you haven't had enough time to complete a test yet you may just cause skeptics to eat you alive, and then their heads will explode.

[VisionFromFeeling]

:explode

[desertgal]

No! LightinDarkness specifically asked us to share any involvement between us regarding an attempted migraine treatment in the public Forum! He/she is the one who did not want us to discuss it in private messages!

And as soon as LightinDarkness announced to me that he/she had changed his/her mind about making the communication public, I respected that and promptly removed the PM messages from my website. If LightinDarkness is now asking that all references to his/her person be removed from my website as well, I will of course abide by that. But note that this reflects a change in his/her original intent.

LiD has already specifically requested that you remove any reference to him from your website. In fact, he's requested it more than once. How many more times does he have to request it for you to actually comply?

Not to sound childish or anything, but several Forum Skeptics, including but not limited to Ashles and desertgal, have posted content from my PM's to them where I specifically asked them not to post any in the public Forum. Where I had sent them PM's to answer questions they would not stop asking, that I was not comfortable with answering publicly, but still wanted to be nice enough to answer them individually. And that was not respected. Oh well.Please. The only reason you PM'd me was to try and scam me out of $10,000 with some delusional story about being able to survive without food or water for more than a week without suffering any ill effects. Considering that you posted my screen name without my consent and the contents of certain posts I made here on your website, to attack me on the basis of openly confessing to having a mental disorder, over an issue that you continue to lie about, meant that you deserve the same consideration.

If Skeptics were objective to say that there is no evidence and they can not take what I have said as truth that would be fine. But they are insisting that I am lying and that it never happened. Meanwhile I know it happened, so I can not change my statement. Fine. There is no evidence to support any of your claims-and a great deal of evidence which proves that at least some of them are complete fiction, such as your Ben Franklin (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/2/aft/41/afv/topic/Default.aspx) story-so we cannot take anything you say as truth.

That is what the mess is about. No. This mess is about you jerking people here around by repeatedly introducing new claims on top of old claims and providing absolutely nothing beyond anecdotal evidence to support them, and then having a hissy fit when people didn't accept your claims as the absolute truth. "I really really really did" is not proof.

This mess is about you jerking people here around repeatedly by requesting help with test protocols and then either rejecting all that were offered, or altering them so they were completely useless.

This mess is about you jerking people here around by refusing to objectively look at your claims and refusing to rule out every logical and rational explanation for them, while pretending that you are undertaking a scientific investigation of them.

This mess is about you jerking people here around by introducing several eminently and easily testable claims that could easily prove/disprove that you have any sort of sooper power, and then refusing to discuss them further in favor of claims that are virtually untestable. If you didn't want them discussed, then you shouldn't have introduced them.

This mess is about you jerking people here around by claiming all these magical powers, refusing to test them, and then resorting to "well, it's just synesthesia" - without being to willing to actually go to a doctor and confirm that.

This mess is about you jerking people here around to participate in experiments that are not only fantasy, but, if they did have a grain of truth to them, are completely unethical and risky.

This mess is about you jerking people here around while you pretend to have some paranormal ability to cure migraines, and then change your story to offering simple massages which you claim will cure a person of lifelong patterns of migraine. Ridiculous, and hardly paranormal.

This mess is about you jerking people here around period, in favor of being an attention whore.

I truly doubt anyone here is impatient to see you perform a test, because everyone here, judging by their posts, knows you aren't going to. Most people don't get impatient for something that they know will never happen.

[LightinDarkness]

LiD stated in posts #2 and #27 of this thread that you did not have permission to post his/her personal information on your website; and specifically requested that you remove all such references in post #29, dated 26th August. That you have not done so is yet another demonstration of your inability to understand other people's feelings.

Personally, I have always found that deliciously ironic.

Oh, and Anita: No one is going to have patience for someone who has consistently done everything possible to distract, derail, and obfuscate the evidence that their claims have no basis in reality. Years after first posting on this board, you are no further to providing any real testing evidence than you were then. And you never will be - because you know were you seriously tested that the results would show (as they have thus far) that you have no superpowers.

[bookitty]

Speaking of the migraine test, VFF offered to "treat" my migraines. In response, I asked a simple questions. "What if the migraines get worse after treatment?"

Still no answer.

[fromdownunder]

Be patient then and let me have the test and you will get your evidence! Your impatience should not turn into hostility! Whether it takes me a day or a month or several months to study my claim to reach a specific claim and to design a test protocol for myself should not make any difference in the way that I am treated by people such as you! Patience! I'm not making all of this up from my own mind, the claim is based on experiences, and evidence will be based on testing!

But you know what can solve that cynicism? Instantly? Patience!

ETA: Patience! Patience! Patience! Patience!


You have already said on this thread that you gave the protocol and time and date of your kidney test to IIG, now you are asking us to be patient, and that you may take months to do all this.

Which time were you lying? Or have you lost it so badly, that you are simply now lying to yourself and don't even realise it?

Norm

[Apology]

ETA: Patience! Patience! Patience! Patience!

We skeptics are going to need a lot of this, because your claims are a giant load of :
Nonsense! Nonsense! Nonsense!

[VisionFromFeeling]

LiD has already specifically requested that you remove any reference to him from your website. In fact, he's requested it more than once. How many more times does he have to request it for you to actually comply?All references to LightinDarkness' name have now been removed from my website (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html). I have kept a general statement of how it was almost arranged that I could meet with a Skeptic and attempt the migraine treatment. Or should I remove that? How about one of you write my entire website. UncaYimmy did once try to talk me into giving him ownership and access to my website www.visionfromfeeling.com.

Please. The only reason you PM'd me was to try and scam me out of $10,000 with some delusional story about being able to survive without food or water for more than a week without suffering any ill effects. Considering that you posted my screen name without my consent and the contents of certain posts I made here on your website, to attack me on the basis of openly confessing to having a mental disorder, over an issue that you continue to lie about, meant that you deserve the same consideration. DESERTGAL!!!!!!!!!!! YOU said that you would give me $10,000 if I could prove that I can survive a week without a drop of food or water! And here you are making it sound as if I was asking you for a money offer! The reason I posted about this subject in a PM instead of publicly, is because I do not want anyone to be encouraged to try to go on without food or water thinking that they can do it.

Which is worse, desertgal? To say that someone is schizophrenic because they have the official diagnose and have themselves openly shared that diagnose before... or to CONSTANTLY accuse someone of being schizophrenic and delusional when they do not have an official diagnose of that and all it is is speculation? I mean, you keep constantly accusing me of being delusional and what not, when I do not even have that diagnose. When I point out about your diagnose it is not to put you down or to have anything against you, but to exemplify that why are you calling me crazy?

Desertgal, I have nothing against you personally but I do wish you could see that some of your bickering does seem to stem from your own complications.

Fine. There is no evidence to support any of your claims-and a great deal of evidence which proves that at least some of them are complete fiction, such as your Ben Franklin story, so we cannot take anything you say as truth. I have not submitted that to a paranormal investigation and I have no interest in finding out whether that is true or not. Hence in the absence of supporting evidence I assume it to not be true.

No. This mess is about you jerking people here around by repeatedly introducing new claims on top of old claims and providing absolutely nothing beyond anecdotal evidence to support them, and then having a hissy fit when people didn't accept your claims as the absolute truth. "I really really really did" is not proof. There are no new claims (other than for the migraine healing). The main claim is and always has been medical perceptions and that claim is going to be tested very soon. People here are very often trying to get me to test something else that I either can not do or am not interested in testing, such as remote viewing.

OF COURSE "I really, really saw that the left kidney was missing!" is not proof! All I am asking is that you allow me to believe that it happened and stop demanding that I somehow admit that it never happened simply because of your disbelief. It did happen, you know? You don't have to believe that, but I believe it, so I will test that claim. And all I am asking is that you allow that I have that belief and claim and that I will proceed to testing it.

This mess is about you jerking people here around repeatedly by requesting help with test protocols and then either rejecting all that were offered, or altering them so they were completely useless. Actually desertgal, I have extracted lots of useful information that has helped me to submit a test protocol to the IIG.

This mess is about you jerking people here around by refusing to objectively look at your claims and refusing to rule out every logical and rational explanation for them, while pretending that you are undertaking a scientific investigation of them. If I fail the IIG test the claim is falsified and I will be proud to admit that. It is just that when Skeptics here say that no I didn't detect the missing kidney in Dr. Carlson you are expecting me to change my version of what happened. If you were objective you would realize that you have no evidence that I did not detect the missing kidney. So let's just wait for the results from the IIG test, then both sides can agree to the outcome.

This mess is about you jerking people here around by introducing several eminently and easily testable claims that could easily prove/disprove that you have any sort of sooper power, and then refusing to discuss them further in favor of claims that are virtually untestable. If you didn't want them discussed, then you shouldn't have introduced them. They were mentioned on my website where I discuss things around the main claim. If the main claim is falsified then all subordinate claims fall down with it.

This mess is about you jerking people here around period, in favor of being an attention whore.I'm not here for attention. Like I already said, I was able to put together a really good test protocol draft thanks to suggestions from Forum Skeptics.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Oh, and Anita: No one is going to have patience for someone who has consistently done everything possible to distract, derail, and obfuscate the evidence that their claims have no basis in reality. Years after first posting on this board, you are no further to providing any real testing evidence than you were then. And you never will be - because you know were you seriously tested that the results would show (as they have thus far) that you have no superpowers.On the contrary you will see that I have wholeheartedly committed to every single offer given to me of testing either my main claim medical perceptions or the claim of healing migraines. Even you made me such an offer one time, and you saw how devoted I was to making it happen. In fact, your offer would be very easy to follow through. Only that you, not I, make excuses to not make it happen. The kidney test will happen soon. And I've only been posting on the JREF Forums since November last year, so that makes it less than a year ago, rather than years.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Speaking of the migraine test, VFF offered to "treat" my migraines. In response, I asked a simple questions. "What if the migraines get worse after treatment?"

Still no answer.There is no way of proving that your migraines got worse because of what I did simply because the time coincided with the time of the att. treatment, just like there is no way of proving that your migraines got better because of what I did simply because the time coincided with the time of the att. treatment.

That is why an attempt to produce any evidence toward an ability to improve migraine condition would rely on several repeated attempts and with several different people to see whether there is a consistent similar effect among a significant number of the persons.

[bookitty]

There is no way of proving that your migraines got worse because of what I did simply because the time coincided with the time of the att. treatment, just like there is no way of proving that your migraines got better because of what I did simply because the time coincided with the time of the att. treatment.


So you are claiming that one test shows noticeable improvement. (yes, you have over many, many threads) but that a negative response is mere chance.

So why would you expect any one to take that chance? Why can't you see that asking people to subject themselves to an untested treatment is wrong.

It doesn't matter if you have no ability. You need to get away from the idea that people only exist for your glorification. This entitlement oozes through everything you say like a bad smell.

It is behind your derailments, the stalling and your inability to understand any other point of view. Please stop parroting and start thinking.

[GeeMack]

On the contrary you will see that I have wholeheartedly committed to every single offer given to me of testing either my main claim medical perceptions or the claim of healing migraines.


That is a flat out lie.

Even you made me such an offer one time, and you saw how devoted I was to making it happen. In fact, your offer would be very easy to follow through. Only that you, not I, make excuses to not make it happen.


You've done nothing wholeheartedly, except to avoid every conceivable opportunity you've been given to test any of your bizarre claims. You've made no commitments other than the commitment to add new and bizarre unsupportable claims to your list. Your only devotion is to yourself and your effort to garner more attention. And your list of excuses for not performing any tests is a mile long and goes back to the first day you darkened the doorstep of the JREF Forums.

The kidney test will happen soon.


No, Anita, it will not happen because you don't want it to happen.

And I've only been posting on the JREF Forums since November last year, so that makes it less than a year ago, rather than years.


And you've avoided like the plague any kind of testing since that very first day. Not only have you avoided testing your bogus claims, you've avoided testing for the common, mundane possibilities that would easily explain your experiences. If you were truly scientifically concerned, you'd acknowledge that the possibility exists that you're seriously mentally ill. Why haven't you had that tested, yet? Even in your denial you'd have to admit that it could explain every experience you claim and your inability to realize you're a habitual liar.

And of course the possibility also exists that you are fully aware of your lies and that your deceit is intentional, in which case...

Feel free to apply skepticism and call me a liar and a fraud.


... you're a liar and a fraud.

[fromdownunder]

There are no new claims (other than for the migraine healing).

You just cannot help yourself can you? This is another flat out lie - you recently claimed to be able to detect a diaphram.

Norm

[desertgal]

All references to LightinDarkness' name have now been removed from my website (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html). I have kept a general statement of how it was almost arranged that I could meet with a Skeptic and attempt the migraine treatment. Or should I remove that? How about one of you write my entire website. UncaYimmy did once try to talk me into giving him ownership and access to my website www.visionfromfeeling.com (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com). Oh, stop with the self pity. If someone asks you to remove their screen name from your website, regardless of the circumstances, you do it. It's simple courtesy. As for the statement about UncaYimmy, you've misrepresented what other people have said to you before, so I have no idea if that is true,and don't particularly care.

ETA: And, oh, look. Anita's statement is not quite accurate (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5007413&postcount=380). I'm shocked.

DESERTGAL!!!!!!!!!!! YOU said that you would give me $10,000 if I could prove that I can survive a week without a drop of food or water! And here you are making it sound as if I was asking you for a money offer! The reason I posted about this subject in a PM instead of publicly, is because I do not want anyone to be encouraged to try to go on without food or water thinking that they can do it. VISIONFROMFEELING!!!!!!!!!!!

Spare me. You had ALREADY posted about it publicly, in a five year old thread that you revived specifically for that purpose. And. please, spare us, as well, the story about how you were responding to a previous poster's claim that human beings can only go four days without water. The previous poster was citing an old adage, not specifically stating that that particular rule of thumb applies to every human being.

I know exactly why you sent me that PM, and you can protest otherwise as much as you like.

Which is worse, desertgal? To say that someone is schizophrenic because they have the official diagnose and have themselves openly shared that diagnose before... or to CONSTANTLY accuse someone of being schizophrenic and delusional when they do not have an official diagnose of that and all it is is speculation? I mean, you keep constantly accusing me of being delusional and what not, when I do not even have that diagnose. When I point out about your diagnose it is not to put you down or to have anything against you, but to exemplify that why are you calling me crazy? I never called you schizophrenic, and I never said that I am schizophrenic. What part of "I retract my belief that VisionFromFeeling suffers from schizotypal disorder", which I have now said about sixteen times, do you not understand?

I believe you are delusional on the basis of your many claims here, which appear to be delusional. I believe you suffer from some level of narcissistic personality disorder. That's my belief.

I'm not the one on here making extraordinary claims without providing the slightest bit of evidence. You claim you are not delusional, or narcissistic, yet you refuse to confirm that with either proof that even your simplest claims are true, or with a diagnosis from a qualified mental health professional.

You claim to be objectively and scientifically investigating these claims of yours, yet this is just another example of how you refuse to rule out logical and rational explanations for your claims. Which points to you either being delusional, or simply running a cold blooded scam.

Desertgal, I have nothing against you personally but I do wish you could see that some of your bickering does seem to stem from your own complications.I don't see it because it isn't true. After 32 years of treatment, I have successfully overcome my "complications"-and that was the reason I initially shared my experience with you, so you could see that such a diagnosis does not spell the end to a happy, productive, fulfilling life.

But, there are people who equate personality disorders with "being crazy" and something derogatory, which, I see, includes you. But, for the record, even though you haven't granted me the same courtesy, I have never called you crazy, and I defy you to find where I said that. That is not a term I use, mainly because I understand the difference.

I know exactly why you put my posts on your website, and you can protest otherwise as much as you like.

I have not submitted that to a paranormal investigation and I have no interest in finding out whether that is true or not. Hence in the absence of supporting evidence I assume it to not be true. Another dodge: how could you possibly 'submit that to a paranormal investigation'? However, you assume correctly, based on facts, not a 'paranormal investigation'. And it is a perfect example of why people don't believe you. Same with your experiences of Revolutionary War Ghosts, and your claims of 'perceiving' significant biological differences between races. It's all hooey, and, unlike you, I have provided proof that it is all hooey.

There are no new claims (other than for the migraine healing).I wasn't talking about new claims.

The main claim is and always has been medical perceptions and that claim is going to be tested very soon. People here are very often trying to get me to test something else that I either can not do or am not interested in testing, such as remote viewing.Nonsense. People here have repeatedly tried to get you to test claims that YOU have made. If you had just wanted to test your "main" claim (and, of course, you would, since the simpler claims could be easily disproven), then you have only yourself to blame for bringing the others up.

OF COURSE "I really, really saw that the left kidney was missing!" is not proof! All I am asking is that you allow me to believe that it happened and stop demanding that I somehow admit that it never happened simply because of your disbelief. It did happen, you know? You don't have to believe that, but I believe it, so I will test that claim. And all I am asking is that you allow that I have that belief and claim and that I will proceed to testing it. Frankly, I don't care what you believe. And, no, I don't "know". The only flaw in your reasoning, though, is that when other people have expressed their disbelief-which they are entitled to-you continually try to force them to believe with "I did! I did! I really really did!".

Stop cramming it down our throats. We don't believe you.

Actually desertgal, I have extracted lots of useful information that has helped me to submit a test protocol to the IIG. Great.

If I fail the IIG test the claim is falsified and I will be proud to admit that.We'll see.

It is just that when Skeptics here say that no I didn't detect the missing kidney in Dr. Carlson you are expecting me to change my version of what happened.And, again, you are missing the point. Skeptics here are not saying that you didn't detect the missing kidney. They are saying that they don't believe you. I don't think they care what version you offer, since they aren't going to believe it regardless.

Again, stop trying to cram it down our throats. We don't believe you. You were definitely warned about this some months ago: when you 'postdict' something, there isn't a chance in hell that any respectable Skeptic will believe you without proof. That they choose to repeatedly make that clear is their right.

If you were objective you would realize that you have no evidence that I did not detect the missing kidney.I do realize that I have no evidence that you did not detect the missing kidney, and that is absolutely irrelevant. You made the claim. The burden of proof is on you. Since you have failed at the burden of proof with all your claims, most people here don't have reason to believe you. Until you present proof of any claim, people here are entitled to state that they don't believe you. It's not impatience-it's skepticism. Do I need to say that a few more times for it to sink in?

They were mentioned on my website where I discuss things around the main claim. If the main claim is falsified then all subordinate claims fall down with it. We'll see.

I'm not here for attention. Well, here's a shocker: I don't believe you.

Before you waste more time protesting, try this: Give us one solid piece of irrefutable evidence that supports your claim that you are telling the truth.

[LightinDarkness]

On the contrary you will see that I have wholeheartedly committed to every single offer given to me of testing either my main claim medical perceptions or the claim of healing migraines. Even you made me such an offer one time, and you saw how devoted I was to making it happen. In fact, your offer would be very easy to follow through. Only that you, not I, make excuses to not make it happen. The kidney test will happen soon. And I've only been posting on the JREF Forums since November last year, so that makes it less than a year ago, rather than years.

Another spectacular series of lies from VFF. You have refused every single test that would clearly falsify the superpowers you claim to have. Every. Single. One. Instead, you opt for elaborate tests that are intricte, hard to set up, and would only falsify (according to you) a small amount of your claim superpowers.

I made you the offer to come practice your woo on me if you would drop your delusions and return to a normal, woo-free life. You refused. Why? Because you know you'd fail. You are the one making excuses, and you have continued to prove yourself as one classless act, a liar, and a fraud.

[VisionFromFeeling]

So you are claiming that one test shows noticeable improvement. (yes, you have over many, many threads) but that a negative response is mere chance. No. I said that one test is not enough and I said that any effect from my att. treatment would have to be verified through several repeated attempts. Read carefully and try not to interpret my posts to agree with your expectations of a paranormal claimant.

So why would you expect any one to take that chance? Why can't you see that asking people to subject themselves to an untested treatment is wrong. I see nothing wrong with how the attempted migraine treatment was carried out with the acquaintance. I do agree that it is borderline to inappropriate to consider trying currently unfounded att. treatment again and with other people. But I also consider it my obligation to look into the possibility. What if I can, somehow, transfer an effect that brings relief to migraine sufferers? Conventional medicine does what it can but has to admit that it is insufficient. Alternative medicine tries many things, including attempts of energy healing, herbal medicines, acupuncture, and massage treatments. If what I do works, then I should look into it and confirm the ability and begin practicing on migraine sufferers. The man I "treated", today reports a lasting improvement.

It doesn't matter if you have no ability. You need to get away from the idea that people only exist for your glorification. This entitlement oozes through everything you say like a bad smell.How absolutely rude of you. I put my entire scientific reputation and future career on line to extend a helping hand to a man who is desperate for any relief in his migraines. And turns out that for what ever reason, meeting with me coincides with immediate and very dramatic relief in his migraine condition. I am absolutely not looking into this for my own benefit.

Although I have not had a migraine myself, I do know that persons with chronic severe migraines suffer tremendously. If there was any chance that I could help them, regardless of what the mechanism actually is whether it is what I actually do or because of transfer of placebo I would most certainly hope to establish that ability and acquire a license and begin practice. Keep in mind, my career will be in conventional medicine. Treating migraines would only take away from my time, but I'd do it for their sakes, not mine.

The att. treatment I do is so very easy for me. If that were all it takes to relieve someone of their migraine symptoms of course I would have to do it. And if you think that is selfish of me, I fail to see your reasoning.

It is behind your derailments, the stalling and your inability to understand any other point of view. Please stop parroting and start thinking.There is no stalling. It took the time it took to study my paranormal claim of medical perceptions and to identify a specific ailment to focus the test on and to consider test conditions and to form a test protocol draft. You must remember, that when I first submitted the claim to the IIG for a test I only had limited experience of perceptions that had been checked for accuracy and I had no way of knowing how the perceptions would occur during various test conditions and had to find out. The test will happen soon.

[VisionFromFeeling]

That is a flat out lie. Is not. I've accepted every offer of a test for medical perceptions and migraine treatment. You seem to be focusing on that I do not accept offers to test other things that I am not interested in testing.

You've done nothing wholeheartedly, except to avoid every conceivable opportunity you've been given to test any of your bizarre claims. You've made no commitments other than the commitment to add new and bizarre unsupportable claims to your list. Your only devotion is to yourself and your effort to garner more attention. And your list of excuses for not performing any tests is a mile long and goes back to the first day you darkened the doorstep of the JREF Forums.How rude. I've worked very hard to look into my medical perceptions claim and I have successfully completed what I refer to as the study process and have submitted an acceptable protocol to the IIG. If the only problem is that all of this has taken two years, then I really don't see why your impatience should be turned into hostility like this. The only new claim I have put on the table is the att. migraine treatment but it does not cause delay to the main claim at all.

And you've avoided like the plague any kind of testing since that very first day. Not only have you avoided testing your bogus claims, you've avoided testing for the common, mundane possibilities that would easily explain your experiences. If you were truly scientifically concerned, you'd acknowledge that the possibility exists that you're seriously mentally ill. Why haven't you had that tested, yet? Even in your denial you'd have to admit that it could explain every experience you claim and your inability to realize you're a habitual liar.There are only two claims that I am going to have tested. And I have not lied about anything.

And of course the possibility also exists that you are fully aware of your lies and that your deceit is intentional, in which case...I have absolutely not lied about any of my experiences or about what I am doing.

[VisionFromFeeling]

You just cannot help yourself can you? This is another flat out lie - you recently claimed to be able to detect a diaphram.

NormThat is part of the medical perceptions claim, Honey.

Insert "Do not call me Honey" here __________________

[VisionFromFeeling]

Another spectacular series of lies from VFF. You have refused every single test that would clearly falsify the superpowers you claim to have. Every. Single. One. Instead, you opt for elaborate tests that are intricte, hard to set up, and would only falsify (according to you) a small amount of your claim superpowers. I only have two claims: medical perceptions, and att. migraine treatment. I have agreed to every single offer to test these two claims. It is true that I do not want to test other aspects of the claim at this moment, including chemical perception. If all there ever were, was the chemical perception, I would not have submitted that for a paranormal test anyway because regardless of any cases of correlation I choose to consider it as an expression of synesthesia. I am testing the medical perceptions, and now also the att. migraine treatment, because those have had interesting correlation that I can't deny or explain. Do note, that if my kidney test fails, it falsifies along with it all the subordinate claims including the chemical detection, but if I were to fail a chemical test then I would still want to have the kidney test, so it makes sense that I should focus on the kidney test and not a chemical test.

I made you the offer to come practice your woo on me if you would drop your delusions and return to a normal, woo-free life. You refused. Why? Because you know you'd fail. You are the one making excuses, and you have continued to prove yourself as one classless act, a liar, and a fraud.I regret to inform you that you are incorrect about your assumption here. I was very disappointed that you chose to withdraw your offer to let me attempt a migraine treatment on you. Also I am very willing to falsify the att. migraine treatment claim if I fail at an att. treatment, but to do that I need a willing volunteer, and most preferably a Skeptic one, like you!

You demand of me that if our att. treatment fails to coincide with noticeable improvement in your migraine condition, that I drop the claim of medical perceptions. I can not do that, for two reasons. One is that they are not the same claim. The med. perceptions claim is about being able to see inside the body, and the att. treatment claim is about being able to see inside the body plus able to design a treatment based on what I see. If the treatment is proven to be ineffective, it does not deduce that I did not see inside the body. If you were a scientist you would see that.

The second reason why I will not drop my main claim is that there will be a test and that test will falsify the main claim properly if there is no ability of seeing inside the body. And it is better that it be falsified based on supporting evidence against it rather than "because LightinDarkness said so".

[SezMe]

How absolutely rude of you. I put my entire scientific reputation and future career on line to extend a helping hand to a man who is desperate for any relief in his migraines.
Oh, don't be a friggin' drama queen. You don't have a scientific reputation to put on the line. And one stupid claim one some internet forum is not going to affect your future career.

[Akhenaten]

I only have two claims: medical perceptions, and att. migraine treatment.

And coming from Arcturus and being able to see inside molecules and conversing with the ghost of Benjamin Franklin and detecting diaphragms and . . .


I have agreed to every single offer to test these two claims.

This be fibbing.


It is true that I do not want to test other aspects of the claim at this moment, including chemical perception.

What you're failing to realise is that what YOU want to test is irrelevant. The tests you really needed to pass before trying anything else were the tests of scientific objectivity, credibility, integrity and sanity. How would you score your results in these areas? If it's higher than zero, you're fooling yourself again.


If all there ever were, was the chemical perception, I would not have submitted that for a paranormal test anyway because regardless of any cases of correlation I choose to consider it as an expression of synesthesia.

If all there ever were, was the chemical perception, your claim could have been neatly and conclusively falsified in a snap.

But the fact is that the chemical perceptions were at the thin end of a wedge of delusion and fantasy that the forum has never before seen played out like this. It's bizarrely compelling.

Or maybe it is the grammar that are the attraction.


I am testing the medical perceptions, and now also the att. migraine treatment, because those have had interesting correlation that I can't deny or explain.

Firstly, you aren't testing anything, otherwise we'd be discussing your results. Secondly, the interesting correlation that you mention doesn't exist, and this is likely why you have difficulty denying or explaining it. Same as the IPU™, really.


Do note, that if my kidney test fails, . . .

It failed at conception. Didn't even get to "stillborn".


. . . it falsifies along with it all the subordinate claims including the chemical detection . . .

I only have two claims: medical perceptions, and att. migraine treatment.

So you only have two claims, except for all the others.


. . . but if I were to fail a chemical test then I would still want to have the kidney test, so it makes sense that I should focus on the kidney test and not a chemical test.

Your assertion that this makes sense needs to be added to the running total of your false claims.


I regret to inform you that you are incorrect about your assumption here.

This is an example of the mental cut-and-paste you do with various words and phrases. Did you pick this one up off a rejection letter from a sceptic organisation?


I was very disappointed that you chose to withdraw your offer to let me attempt a migraine treatment on you. Also I am very willing to falsify the att. migraine treatment claim if I fail at an att. treatment, but to do that I need a willing volunteer, and most preferably a Skeptic one, like you!

Att. to harangue someone into taking part in your bogus att.s at medical treatments is outrageous behaviour. How do think this att. will turn out?


You demand of me that if our att. treatment fails to coincide with noticeable improvement in your migraine condition, that I drop the claim of medical perceptions.

More att. haranguing. How sweet.


I can not do that, for two reasons. One is that they are not the same claim. The med. perceptions claim is about being able to see inside the body, and the att. treatment claim is about being able to see inside the body plus able to design a treatment based on what I see. If the treatment is proven to be ineffective, it does not deduce that I did not see inside the body.

They are ind. the same claim. All of your rid. claims stem from the simp. bas. claim that you can see ins. stuff. Also, I don't bel. your Eng. is suff. to be muck. ab. with all these abb.s. Dip.


If you were a scientist you would see that.

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!


The second reason why I will not drop my main claim is that there will be a test and that test will falsify the main claim properly if there is no ability of seeing inside the body.

Comp. mumb. jumb.


And it is better that it be falsified based on supporting evidence against it rather than "because LightinDarkness said so".

Hissy fit #4,739 noted. I think I see a patt. dev.

[StevenCalder]

To be honest I think this is just feeding her attention needs.

She gave us absolutely nothing and ignored arguments which have been made to her for months. We took the bait, and a flock of skeptics (including myself) flew down to destroy self-evidently stupid and truth-challenged arguments. All of which had been refuted earlier. Id say we fed her.

Maybe this entire discussion should devolve into ascii and emoticon replys until she supplies some evidence... I think we'd get as much progress and depth out of it.

[fromdownunder]

That is part of the medical perceptions claim, Honey.

Insert "Do not call me Honey" here __________________

I take it that this response is actually supposed to mean something. You really are losing it.

However, since you have been been asked at least three times to confirm the protocol, time and date which you have specifically stated on this thread as having already happened, that you have given for the kidney test, please post this information on this thread.

Otherwise, you appear to be just a liar and a fraud. And an attention whore. I do accept that you have one power - the power to make people who read what you write to want to throw up.

Norm

[StevenCalder]

Sorry, I missed this the last time around. Please confirm the time and date of your IIG Kidney test, since you now claim to have given these.

Norm

I would love it if you could stop avoiding this VFF and address it.

Keep in mind there are skeptics working on independent verification, now would be the time to preempt them.

[Akhenaten]

<snipped to allow room for birthday greeting>

<Happy Birthday, fromdownunder!>


I do accept that you have one power - the power to make people who read what you write to want to throw up.

Norm





I have evidence to support this claim. Are you interested in proceeding to a Study™ and Test™?


Dave

[Akhenaten]

<snipitty>


I have successfully completed what I refer to as the study process and have submitted an acceptable protocol to the IIG.





O rly? Give us a squiz at it then. Please highlight the IIG's acceptance part of your response.

[Garrette]

If all there ever were, was the chemical perception, I would not have submitted that for a paranormal test anyway because regardless of any cases of correlation I choose to consider it as an expression of synesthesia.Probably my only post on these VFF threads, though I have been reading them with amusement at Anita's gyrations to maintain her delusions.

You "choose to consider it as an expression of synesthesia?"

It isn't. You haven't been diagnosed with synesthesia, and you failed the generous online self-diagnosis. Just as importantly, identifying different chemical substances by sight is not part of synesthesia.

Choosing this is like me choosing to consider the fact that I've never won a marathon as proof that I can win marathons because I am color blind.

(And in case you can't follow the comparison: I'm not color blind.)

[jhunter1163]

Happy birthday Fromdownunder. You know, you could have your birthday AND your 1,000th JREF post on the same day. An auspicious day indeed.

[Drs_Res]

There are no new claims (other than for the migraine healing). The main claim is and always has been medical perceptions and that claim is going to be tested very soon. People here are very often trying to get me to test something else that I either can not do or am not interested in testing, such as remote viewing.


For the second time, no one suggested "remote viewing". Please stop repeating this.

Thank you.

[Agatha]

Happy birthday, fromdownunder!

att. treatment.... att. treatment...
Why do you keep typing "att. treatment", VfF? You don't habitually shorten any other words, not even quite complex long ones which you use often (like synaesthesia). Is there a reason why you are shortening this particular word and no other? Are we being led to believe that you are intending one word when in fact you are meaning another one?

Does 'att.' stand for attempted? Attainted? Attentive? Attested? Attractive? Attitudinal? Attributed? Attenuated? Attendant? Attention-seeking?

[Femke]

VfF,

You seem to confuse the exhaustion of the regular posters with impatience, please allow me to state what I think is at least partly responsible for that. It is your utter lack of a critical mind, and your refusal to apply the scientific method, a method you should well be aware of, as a student in two scientific fields with for the most part commendable scores.

Let me go back to the basics.
Say a scientist finds a phenomenon that could shake the very foundations of science, the vision of organs through solid tissue and clothing. If it happens the way it seems to happen, most laws of physics should be rewritten.
What would be the more scientific way of proceeding? Saying: This is interesting, let's study it because it is very likely that the laws of physics are wrong, or: This is strange, let's see if any of the known mechanisms that have fooled people before might be responsible.

Well, if the scientist is worth her salt, she would go for the second route. She would first look at the sensory input processing unit, the brain, to check for chemical imbalances or crossed wires. Maybe she would check the sensory input generating units, the eyes. If everything is operating according to standard parameters, then she would look for mechanisms like applying previous knowledge, cold reading, postdicting, confirmation bias, etc and if that is unsuccessful, she would do some tight tests of clear-cut parts of the phenomenon to shed some light on it. If all of these cannot adequately explain the phenomenon, then it might be a good idea to design tests of the more exotic claims, but only after having ruled out the more mundane explanations.

You have gone straight to the least likely explanation, while claiming to be a real scientist. This is what bothers me, and I think more of us.
You do not even consider the fact that you should rule out other, more plausible possibilities first. Why is that? Please ask yourself that.

Just my thoughts,
Femke

[VisionFromFeeling]

Oh, don't be a friggin' drama queen. You don't have a scientific reputation to put on the line. And one stupid claim one some internet forum is not going to affect your future career.Ha ha. Thank you. I think so too.

[VisionFromFeeling]

But the fact is that the chemical perceptions were at the thin end of a wedge of delusion and fantasy that the forum has never before seen played out like this. It's bizarrely compelling.But it's probably just synesthesia!

Firstly, you aren't testing anything, otherwise we'd be discussing your results. Secondly, the interesting correlation that you mention doesn't exist, and this is likely why you have difficulty denying or explaining it. Same as the IPU™, really.The kidney test will be held soon. And the correlation does exist, but is not backed up by evidence yet. Oh you Skeptical thing, you.

So you only have two claims, except for all the others.Only two claims.

Att. to harangue someone into taking part in your bogus att.s at medical treatments is outrageous behaviour. How do think this att. will turn out?Coincide with incredible improvement in a person's migraine condition again?

Comp. mumb. jumb. Oh, your humor! :D What ever would we do without you? :p

Hissy fit #4,739 noted. I think I see a patt. dev.:D

[VisionFromFeeling]

It isn't. You haven't been diagnosed with synesthesia, and you failed the generous online self-diagnosis. Just as importantly, identifying different chemical substances by sight is not part of synesthesia.The online test didn't test for any of the forms of synesthesia that I claim to experience, such as perceiving vibrational landscapes.

[VisionFromFeeling]

For the second time, no one suggested "remote viewing". Please stop repeating this.To ask me to detect whether there is or is not a person behind an opaque screen is to ask me to do a remote viewing test and it is not something I can do.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Why do you keep typing "att. treatment", VfF? You don't habitually shorten any other words, not even quite complex long ones which you use often (like synaesthesia). Is there a reason why you are shortening this particular word and no other? Are we being led to believe that you are intending one word when in fact you are meaning another one?

Does 'att.' stand for attempted? Attainted? Attentive? Attested? Attractive? Attitudinal? Attributed? Attenuated? Attendant? Attention-seeking?It means attempted. I abbreviate it because it is a long word and I type it so often. There is no hidden agenda behind the abbreviation I assure you. I'm just tired of typing. Then why do you guys abbreviate VisionFromFeeling as VFF?

[StevenCalder]

The kidney test will be held soon.

I will for the last time ask for the date and time that you claim to have given to the IIG, please.

I will take a lack of an answer as an admission that you have been less than honest about this.

[VisionFromFeeling]

VfF,

You seem to confuse the exhaustion of the regular posters with impatience, please allow me to state what I think is at least partly responsible for that. It is your utter lack of a critical mind, and your refusal to apply the scientific method, a method you should well be aware of, as a student in two scientific fields with for the most part commendable scores.

Let me go back to the basics.
Say a scientist finds a phenomenon that could shake the very foundations of science, the vision of organs through solid tissue and clothing. If it happens the way it seems to happen, most laws of physics should be rewritten.
What would be the more scientific way of proceeding? Saying: This is interesting, let's study it because it is very likely that the laws of physics are wrong, or: This is strange, let's see if any of the known mechanisms that have fooled people before might be responsible.

Well, if the scientist is worth her salt, she would go for the second route. She would first look at the sensory input processing unit, the brain, to check for chemical imbalances or crossed wires. Maybe she would check the sensory input generating units, the eyes. If everything is operating according to standard parameters, then she would look for mechanisms like applying previous knowledge, cold reading, postdicting, confirmation bias, etc and if that is unsuccessful, she would do some tight tests of clear-cut parts of the phenomenon to shed some light on it. If all of these cannot adequately explain the phenomenon, then it might be a good idea to design tests of the more exotic claims, but only after having ruled out the more mundane explanations.

You have gone straight to the least likely explanation, while claiming to be a real scientist. This is what bothers me, and I think more of us.
You do not even consider the fact that you should rule out other, more plausible possibilities first. Why is that? Please ask yourself that.

Just my thoughts,
FemkeI did detect the missing kidney. So I am having a test to see if I can do that consistently and with accuracy that exceeds what is possible through guessing. That is where I start. If I were a scientist and I would observe an unexpected effect in the laboratory, I would certainly first be interested in repeating the results to see if they are consistent to confirm whether there truly is something to study or whether it was just a single occurrence before commencing with investment of further time and attention.

[Garrette]

The online test didn't test for any of the forms of synesthesia that I claim to experience, such as perceiving vibrational landscapes.I see. So you are claiming to have synaesthesia for the following two reasons:

1. You have never been diagnosed with it
2. You don't exhibit symptoms consistent with it

Have I missed anything?

[Garrette]

To ask me to detect whether there is or is not a person behind an opaque screen is to ask me to do a remote viewing test and it is not something I can do.It is remote viewing to exactly the same extent that detecting a missing kidney through someone's clothing is remote viewing.

ETA: The amusement factor is gone for me. I won't post anymore to the VFF threads; she'll get none of my attention any longer.

[GeeMack]

I did detect the missing kidney.


No, you didn't.

So I am having a test [...]


No, you aren't.

[...] to see if I can do that consistently and with accuracy that exceeds what is possible through guessing.


You can't.

That is where I start.


You won't.

If I were a scientist [...]


You most certainly aren't.

[...] and I would observe an unexpected effect in the laboratory, I would certainly first be interested in repeating the results to see if they are consistent to confirm whether there truly is something to study or whether it was just a single occurrence before commencing with investment of further time and attention.


But you invented the experience, fabricated it from scratch after you found out Dr. Carlson was missing a kidney. So if you were a scientist (and of course you aren't), you would start by checking for commonly occurring, mundane explanations for your proclivity to make crap up. If you were even remotely interested in the truth, rather than this ongoing attention whoring folly you've engaged in, the first thing you'd do is get a mental health professional to check you over thoroughly. And after that, and only if you get a clean bill of health, consider other less likely explanations.

So how about it, Anita, have you made any effort whatsoever to eliminate the very common, everyday possibilities that can easily explain all your imaginary experiences as well as your habit of lying? Have you checked with a mental health professional to see if you might be suffering from some sort of mental or psychological problem that manifests itself in lying and believing your fantasies to be true?

[pakeha]

I see. So you are claiming to have synaesthesia for the following two reasons:

1. You have never been diagnosed with it
2. You don't exhibit symptoms consistent with it

Have I missed anything?

Snap, Garrette.

[desertgal]

I am in the process of getting independent verification of this claim. As soon as I have more info, I'll post it here.

You might wish to make them aware of this statement (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/1/aft/138/afv/topic/afpgj/1/Default.aspx#1730) by Anita:

"If I fail the IIG test then I can look into other possible explanations to the claim. But at this point I have no reason to suspect that the claim is based on a mental illness. I look at people, I see images. That in itself is not a mental illness but just an expression of my synesthesia, and synesthesia by definition is not a mental illness. Also the way I handle my perceptions makes them not a mental illness. I do not base decisions on them or change my behavior based on them. I do not go around telling people about the health information I sense in them. So still there is no reason to be concerned of a mental illness. But the fact I am investigating this is because of the accuracy in cases where I shouldn't have been able to know what I knew. The IIG test will show whether I can see the number of kidneys or not, so let's just wait for that."

Isn't the IIG challenge a paranormal one? Synesthesia is not a paranormal claim. Since Anita has already established the non paranormal cause of her alleged ability, they may not wish to waste any further time on her.

[skeen]

Anita, I think you're getting crazier. And you don't have synesthesia.

[bookitty]

As I've said before, you do remember seeing a missing kidney. You were deep into your fantasy human MRI mode, you felt something in the general area of the back and were then told about the kidney. At that point you thought "Yes, that's it!"

Your memory of this event is very clear and precise. The only problem is that it is totally false. People create false memories all the time. Perhaps you are unaware of the "Bugs Bunny" study?

http://www.unisci.com/stories/20012/0613011.htm
About one-third of the people who were exposed to a fake print ad describing a visit to Disneyland and how they met and shook hands with Bugs Bunny said later they remembered or knew the event happened to them.

The scenario described in the ad never occurred because Bugs Bunny is a Warner Bros. cartoon character and wouldn't be featured in any Walt Disney Co. property, according to University of Washington memory researchers Jacquie Pickrell and Elizabeth Loftus...

How our brains process information and come up with new startling realities is infinitely more interesting than playing the witch-girl. (Every campus has a few.) As a scientist, you should be more focused on facts than your ego.

Starting with a paranormal premise and then filling in the blanks with pseudo-science and fancy words is best left to creationists, conspiracy theorists and alt. med scam artists.

[desertgal]

Anita, I think you're getting crazier. And you don't have synesthesia.

Of course she doesn't. But, she continually claims that is the cause of her "ability". Anita wants it both ways, as always. Synesthesia and a paranormal ability. Why should the IIG waste further time with her?

[Farencue]

Those people at the IIG are mighty patient.
Here is their September 2009 update on Anita:

"Anita Ikonen has returned to the IIG, this time with a revised claim of paranormal medical diagnosis. Anita claims that she can psychically determine whether or not someone has had a kidney removed by looking at them. The IIG is digesting her proposed protocol for testing this latest claim and we hope to have Ms. Ikonen in Los Angeles for a preliminary test before the year is out."


Gotta laugh at the "this time with a revised claim......"
Had a laugh too at "IIG is digesting her protocol"
And horror of horrors what is this? "Anita claims that she can psychically determine....."

So there you have it readers, this is all the evidence you need that Anita has, in her mind at least, submitted an "acceptable" protocol and has a date.

Is anyone interested in running a book on when Anita will tire of her own games?

[Agatha]

Why do you keep typing "att. treatment", VfF? You don't habitually shorten any other words, not even quite complex long ones which you use often (like synaesthesia). Is there a reason why you are shortening this particular word and no other? Are we being led to believe that you are intending one word when in fact you are meaning another one?

Does 'att.' stand for attempted? Attainted? Attentive? Attested? Attractive? Attitudinal? Attributed? Attenuated? Attendant? Attention-seeking?

It means attempted. I abbreviate it because it is a long word and I type it so often. There is no hidden agenda behind the abbreviation I assure you. I'm just tired of typing. Then why do you guys abbreviate VisionFromFeeling as VFF?

Ah, right. 'Attempted' is such a tiring word to type. Paranormal, synaesthesia, investigation, falsified, detection, vibrational... all those words which are equally as long or longer, and which you use hundreds of times more often, are not nearly as tiring. It's just one of those amazing coincidences that the only word you habitually abbreviate is the one which qualifies your use of the word 'treatment'.

Is it legal for you to call what you do treatment? No.

How about 'attempted treatment? Probably still no, but it doesn't sound so good from your perspective.

What about 'att. treatment'? Probably still not legal, but so much more likely to fool people into believing what you do might help them.

It is no different from the wordings of charlatans peddling false cancer 'cures'. By offering treatment, 'att.' or otherwise, you are no different from those charlatans.

[pakeha]

In response to me, VfF wrote:
No! LightinDarkness specifically asked us to share any involvement between us regarding an attempted migraine treatment in the public Forum! He/she is the one who did not want us to discuss it in private messages!

And as soon as LightinDarkness announced to me that he/she had changed his/her mind about making the communication public, I respected that and promptly removed the PM messages from my website. If LightinDarkness is now asking that all references to his/her person be removed from my website as well, I will of course abide by that. But note that this reflects a change in his/her original intent. ...

I went around to VfF's website and lo, the name has been removed, but the woman has chosen to dedicate paragraphs explaining the incident, with a link to this thread, which rather effectively identifies the s/n of the poster who prefered to remain anon. in this affair.
I call that sort of evasion basically dishonest.

Rather like the att. attempt ploy.
I'm still unsure what VfF means by remote viewing and how it is different from people-watching in a park or mall.

[pakeha]

Those people at the IIG are mighty patient.
Here is their September 2009 update on Anita:

"Anita Ikonen has returned to the IIG, this time with a revised claim of paranormal medical diagnosis. Anita claims that she can psychically determine whether or not someone has had a kidney removed by looking at them. The IIG is digesting her proposed protocol for testing this latest claim and we hope to have Ms. Ikonen in Los Angeles for a preliminary test before the year is out."

...Is anyone interested in running a book on when Anita will tire of her own games?

Thanks for the update, Farencue.

[Femke]

Bookitty, thanks for your marvelous example. I was searching for an attractive way of showing how people can convince themselves of false memories. It was spot on.

[VisionFromFeeling]

How our brains process information and come up with new startling realities is infinitely more interesting than playing the witch-girl. (Every campus has a few.) As a scientist, you should be more focused on facts than your ego.The fact is that I detected the missing kidney during the reading. The fact that you consider this unbelievable qualifies it for a paranormal test. It really did happen. But rather than endlessly debating whether it happened or not, what matters is if I can do it again on the test because then we will know.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I went around to VfF's website and lo, the name has been removed, but the woman has chosen to dedicate paragraphs explaining the incident, with a link to this thread, which rather effectively identifies the s/n of the poster who prefered to remain anon. in this affair.
I call that sort of evasion basically dishonest.

Rather like the att. attempt ploy.
I'm still unsure what VfF means by remote viewing and how it is different from people-watching in a park or mall.I will not censor my paranormal investigation when it fits the Skeptics.

I was asked to do a remote viewing test where I have to tell whether a person is or is not standing behind an opaque screen. And it is different from what I do, since I require to see the person.

[Pup]

I was asked to do a remote viewing test where I have to tell whether a person is or is not standing behind an opaque screen. And it is different from what I do, since I require to see the person.

So how about that brilliant shoe test (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=151183)?

[Sideroxylon]

The fact is that I detected the missing kidney during the reading. The fact that you consider this unbelievable qualifies it for a paranormal test. It really did happen. But rather than endlessly debating whether it happened or not, what matters is if I can do it again on the test because then we will know.

Until you have done proper tests you have no justification to claim that as a fact. It’s no different from the dowsers claiming they detected water or whatever else.

[StevenCalder]

I will for the last time ask for the date and time that you claim to have given to the IIG, please.

I will take a lack of an answer as an admission that you have been less than honest about this.

Thanks for yet again a lack of an answer on this. But I guess I got my answer in a way. You can't honestly wonder why people assume your lying if you are lying...

I am not interested in your excuses for why in all this time you have not got your act together and tested yourself and I am not interested in your unproven opinions of your own unproven "powers".

We have seen a whole bunch of "I'm going to get tested this time, honest!" none of which have come to anything and I predict that this current test with the IIG will probably be the same. I hope I am wrong, I really do, but at this stage it seems unlikely.

So rather than stay here and feed your need for attention, I am not going to bother engaging with you on anything else until I see some evidence. If you ever have that evidence, either a positive or negative result, I will be intrested.

[fromdownunder]

The fact is that I detected the missing kidney during the reading. The fact that you consider this unbelievable qualifies it for a paranormal test. It really did happen. But rather than endlessly debating whether it happened or not, what matters is if I can do it again on the test because then we will know.

The fact is that you have said on this thread that you have claimed that you have given a time and date for your kidney test, You lied! Grow up!

And you have not responded to any request to actually tell anyone what time and date that you said you have given for the test. Can't you even state that ... ooops!, I should not have said that? Because if you cannot, you are even hiding from yourself that you are a liar and a fraud. Get help, if you cannot even admit to yourself that you made at least one false statement. Liar!

Norm

[desertgal]

But rather than endlessly debating whether it happened or not, what matters is if I can do it again on the test because then we will know.

Great. Then stop encouraging the endless debate with your bogus crap, go take the test, and let us know when you are done.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2433/vffattentionwhore2.jpg

[bookitty]

The fact is that I detected the missing kidney during the reading. The fact that you consider this unbelievable qualifies it for a paranormal test. It really did happen. But rather than endlessly debating whether it happened or not, what matters is if I can do it again on the test because then we will know.

Please read that post again more slowly. I believe that you have a very clear memory of detecting a missing kidney.

I also believe that there is a very common and rational explanation for this memory. The important thing is that you have zero interest in checking out the rational reasons first.

Of course you don't need to. But in that case you really should refrain from calling yourself a skeptic. A skeptic looks at all possible answers.

Speaking of skeptics, where's that test protocol from IIG?

[bookitty]

Great. Then stop encouraging the endless debate with your bogus crap, go take the test, and let us know when you are done.

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/2433/vffattentionwhore2.jpg

Given VFF's stalling, lying, posting other's personal information on her site, and her general inability to play well with others, "...because I am inhumane.." is the single best typo ever!

[Audible Click]

. But rather than endlessly debating whether it happened or not, what matters is if I can do it again on the test because then we will know.

You could stop this debate dead in it's tracks by posting the date and time of your IIG test. Below and bolded is an excerpt from UY's blog on the Stop VfF site. You seemed quite excited to have recieved an e-mail from IIG. So why not share the date and time of the test?



[9/14/2009 7:26:07 PM] Anita Ikonen: Jim, what could I do to make either of the tests happen sooner? Have I not done everything I can? What more do you think I could do.
[9/14/2009 7:26:16 PM] Anita Ikonen: Insert no reply here _______________________
[9/14/2009 9:29:49 PM] Anita Ikonen: Hooray!! The IIG just sent me the test protocol!!! :D
[9/14/2009 9:30:02 PM] Anita Ikonen: Want a peek of it? I know you want to.
[9/14/2009 9:31:08 PM] Jim Carr: No, I don't want a peek.
[9/14/2009 9:31:28 PM] Anita Ikonen: Not even a little one? Ok. No peek.
[9/14/2009 9:31:48 PM] Anita Ikonen: Is your wife right there?
[9/14/2009 9:31:56 PM] Anita Ikonen: Yes or no.
[9/14/2009 9:32:17 PM] Jim Carr: My wife is asleep and rarely comes in my office when she's awake.
[9/14/2009 9:32:28 PM] Anita Ikonen: Ok. Never mind.
[9/14/2009 9:33:29 PM] Anita Ikonen: It's a very long e-mail. I haven't read it yet. How exciting.
[9/14/2009 9:33:54 PM] Anita Ikonen: I sincerely hope that I can agree to it and thus the test can FINALLY HAPPEN! I will do my best to accept the protocol.
[9/14/2009 9:36:16 PM] Anita Ikonen: Yay! They are suggesting the original test protocol with three trials with one in ten persons who is missing a kidney rather than the ten people and not being told how many are missing a kidney! That makes it much better!
[9/14/2009 9:37:03 PM] Anita Ikonen: Three trials with ten people each, in each trial one person is missing a kidney. :)
[9/14/2009 9:40:06 PM] Jim Carr: What part of "No, I don't want a peek" didn't you understand?
[9/14/2009 9:40:07 PM] Anita Ikonen: IIG: "The Applicant may not pass on a trial or any of the test segments. A pass will be considered a “miss”."
[9/14/2009 9:46:39 PM] Anita Ikonen: I've got to share this with you: "Once per trial before the Applicant makes her final selection, she may dismiss any number of Subjects that she feels are not the Target." I'm very happy they have included that in the protocol!
[9/14/2009 9:46:52 PM] *** Jim Carr blocked Anita Ikonen ***

[Drs_Res]

To ask me to detect whether there is or is not a person behind an opaque screen is to ask me to do a remote viewing test and it is not something I can do.

Even though you were able to see "into" your friend behind a screen and not see the person, even though in the protocol discussion you agreed to having the test subjects hidden except for the shirts on their backs and can not see the person.

It is remote viewing to exactly the same extent that detecting a missing kidney through someone's clothing is remote viewing.

ETA: The amusement factor is gone for me. I won't post anymore to the VFF threads; she'll get none of my attention any longer.

EXACTLY.


I will not censor my paranormal investigation when it fits the Skeptics.

I was asked to do a remote viewing test where I have to tell whether a person is or is not standing behind an opaque screen. And it is different from what I do, since I require to see the person.

No you don't. See my first point in this post.

So how about that brilliant shoe test (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=151183)?

Yes, the brilliant shoe test, the one that is the same as detecting if someone is behind a screen or not.

VFF, I am not asking you to do the "full body detection test". Please note that I only suggested it because it is simple and could falsify all of your claims in one fell swoop, ironically, that is the same reason that you blindly refuse to look into it. Even though I was the one who suggested it, I never pushed you on it, and I won't start now.

Please (for the third time now) stop calling it a remote viewing test, it's not.

[StevenCalder]

Please (for the third time now) stop calling it a remote viewing test, it's not.

Yep the tests suggested are not remote viewing, but ironically, from the conversation with UncaYimmy;


[9/14/2009 9:31:48 PM] Anita Ikonen: Is your wife right there?
[9/14/2009 9:31:56 PM] Anita Ikonen: Yes or no.
[9/14/2009 9:32:17 PM] Jim Carr: My wife is asleep and rarely comes in my office when she's awake.



I absolutely did ask about your wife because I had an image of her and wanted to know whether it was because she was there.


That is possibly the text-book defintion of remote viewing. :D

[bookitty]

Yep the tests suggested are not remote viewing, but ironically, from the conversation with UncaYimmy;





That is possibly the text book defintion of remote viewing. :D

Vision From Feeling, Inc

Migraines in your head? Haunting in your home? Vff can help!

Wondering what Ben Franklin forgot to write down? Need to find your foot in a shoe? Don't know what that pill is? Vff is here for you!

Go days with out food and water? Weekly!

Remember that time you woke up in a bathtub full of ice? Did they really take your kidney? Vff can tell you!

You've got cancer, oh dear! Should you eat carrots or bugs? VFF knows!

Lost diaphragm? No problems!

Share your ice cream with a psychic? She can do it remotely!

Or maybe you've always wanted your picture taken with a genuine alien. Gotcha covered!

Remember, she's also a super-serious scientist. Be sure to ask about past lives, modern eugenics, the vibrations of bacteria and the higher frequency of white light!

Vision from Feeling, Inc. There's no woo that she can't do!*



*Entertainment purposes only. Results guaranteed not to fail any test that is avoided. Check your state laws for possible violations. Disbelief in VFF can cause variations in results, hissy fits and stalking. Vff, Inc is not responsible for any actual display of psychic powers, negative energy or lost articles (of test procedures). Proceed at your own risk.

[desertgal]

Vision From Feeling, Inc

Migraines in your head? Haunting in your home? Vff can help!

Wondering what Ben Franklin forgot to write down? Need to find your foot in a shoe? Don't know what that pill is? Vff is here for you!

Go days with out food and water? Weekly!

Remember that time you woke up in a bathtub full of ice? Did they really take your kidney? Vff can tell you!

You've got cancer, oh dear! Should you eat carrots or bugs? VFF knows!

Lost diaphragm? No problems!

Share your ice cream with a psychic? She can do it remotely!

Or maybe you've always wanted your picture taken with a genuine alien. Gotcha covered!

Remember, she's also a super-serious scientist. Be sure to ask about past lives, modern eugenics, the vibrations of bacteria and the higher frequency of white light!

Vision from Feeling, Inc. There's no woo that she can't do!*



*Entertainment purposes only. Results guaranteed not to fail any test that is avoided. Check your state laws for possible violations. Disbelief in VFF can cause variations in results, hissy fits and stalking. Vff, Inc is not responsible for any actual display of psychic powers, negative energy or lost articles (of test procedures). Proceed at your own risk.

Humbly passing award to Bookitty...

That is hilarious!

[jhunter1163]

Lost diaphragm? No problems!

Where on Earth do you lose a diaphragm? :boxedin:

[desertgal]

Given VFF's stalling, lying, posting other's personal information on her site, and her general inability to play well with others, "...because I am inhumane.." is the single best typo ever!

It wasn't a typo. It was a Swedish play on words. :D

[bookitty]

It wasn't a typo. It was a Swedish play on words. :D

Even better! The inside jokes surrounding this claim or well worth the price of admittance.

[desertgal]

Where on Earth do you lose a diaphragm? :boxedin:

Dunno. But if Anita were a man, it would certainly be one hell of a new twist on an old way of breaking the ice: "Hey, baby. Is that a diaphragm in your uterus or are you just happy to see me?"

:p

[Jeff Corey]

Where on Earth do you lose a diaphragm? :boxedin:

Do I have to draw you a diagram?

[fromdownunder]

Posted without further ciomment. None is necessary


I specifically mention this, as the people you wish to do this test with you are waiting on you specifically - protocol, time, date. Simple really. Why divert attention from your number one *rising with a bullet* talent?

Posted by Anita on 14 September

And I have given all of that to the IIG.

Discussion with Jim on 14 September:

[9/14/2009 9:33:54 PM] Anita Ikonen: I sincerely hope that I can agree to it and thus the test can FINALLY HAPPEN! I will do my best to accept the protocol.

End of discussion.

Norm

[pakeha]

Originally Posted by pakeha
I went around to VfF's website and lo, the name has been removed, but the woman has chosen to dedicate paragraphs explaining the incident, with a link to this thread, which rather effectively identifies the s/n of the poster who prefered to remain anon. in this affair.
I call that sort of evasion basically dishonest.

Rather like the att. attempt ploy.
I'm still unsure what VfF means by remote viewing and how it is different from people-watching in a park or mall.

I will not censor my paranormal investigation when it fits the Skeptics.

I was asked to do a remote viewing test where I have to tell whether a person is or is not standing behind an opaque screen. And it is different from what I do, since I require to see the person.

Sorry if I've been unclear.
Since when is honouring a potential volunteer's privacy, at his/her strenuous insistence, censorship?
Does VFF really imagine posting this sort of conflict on her website could inspire anything but the suspicion the author(ess) has serious emotional issues to resolve before claiming abilities to 'see' and att. treat?

Thanks for defining 'remote viewing', as you understand it.
Obviously the absence of a person is harder to detect than the absence of a kidney.
However, fair enough; it isn't VFF's claim.
I'm seriously puzzled why VFF hasn't investigated the kidney perception claim thoroughly on her own before bringing what may well be a one-off to people's attention.

[pakeha]

[9/14/2009 9:36:16 PM] Anita Ikonen: Yay! They are suggesting the original test protocol with three trials with one in ten persons who is missing a kidney rather than the ten people and not being told how many are missing a kidney! That makes it much better!


VFF is happy because the blinding and odds have been been reduced to a 1 in 10 shot? Repeated three times?

How does this make it better?
The claim would appear to based on a casual viewing of a person VFF asserts not to have known was missing a kidney. So. Why does knowing how many out of a given number of volunteers have only one kidney make the test better?

[desertgal]

I'm seriously puzzled why VFF hasn't investigated the kidney perception claim thoroughly on her own before bringing what may well be a one-off to people's attention.

That's how VfF generally works.

She 'perceived' a contraceptive diaphragm once. Did she test further to see if she could do that consistently before making the claim that it is part of her ability? Nope. She just jumped to "I can detect diaphragms!"

She 'perceived' insulin shock in a patient (she says) once. Did she test further to see if she could do that consistently before making the claim that it is part of her "ability"? Nope. She just jumped to "I can save lives! I can detect insulin shock!"

She 'perceived' that the tissues around a heart were saturated with peanut oil once (she says). Did she test further to see if she could do that consistently before making the claim that it is part of her 'ability'? Nope. She just jumped to "I can save lives! I can detect heart issues!"

And the list goes on and on. Nearly everything she claims is part of her 'ability' is something she has 'perceived' once.

[skeen]

This article reminds me of Anita big time: http://counsellingresource.com/ask-the-psychologist/2008/11/21/supernatural-powers/

[jhunter1163]

Hmmmm. I recently underwent a heart procedure and have surgical clips in my chest, but I don't know exactly where. Maybe VfF could view them and say where they are, then we could look at my medical records to see if she's right.

Nah, that'll never happen because it could actually falsify her claims.

[NoZed Avenger]

Hmmmm. I recently underwent a heart procedure and have surgical clips in my chest, but I don't know exactly where. Maybe VfF could view them and say where they are, then we could look at my medical records to see if she's right.

Nah, that'll never happen because it could actually falsify her claims.

Just with that information, I could make a reasonable guess with at least a decent chance of success.

[volatile]

So how about that brilliant shoe test (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=151183)?

Or the test I proposed, which involved a burqa?

[VisionFromFeeling]

Never mind.

[whatthebutlersaw]

Maybe VfF could identify x out of y people who have voluntarily swallowed a marble? I wouldn't mind swallowing a marble and later having to crap it out in the name of science (unless Anita feels it has to have a certain size to be detectable), but I have already had one stalker and it sucked.

I fail to understand how it is possible to perceive a missing kidney through bones, muscles and clothing, but to not know whether a whole, live person is standing behind a screen or not.

The migraine stuff is pure crap though. Anyone with migraines knows that they come and go, that they are different from person to person and that they sometimes disappear with age.

Could Anita detect pace makers? (Without looking for scars etc)

[VisionFromFeeling]

Hmmmm. I recently underwent a heart procedure and have surgical clips in my chest, but I don't know exactly where. Maybe VfF could view them and say where they are, then we could look at my medical records to see if she's right.

Nah, that'll never happen because it could actually falsify her claims.Sure, let's do it. Where are you located?

[shandyjan]

This article reminds me of Anita big time: http://counsellingresource.com/ask-the-psychologist/2008/11/21/supernatural-powers/

Most interesting!

[VisionFromFeeling]

I understand all the concern and disbelief. But I did detect the missing kidney and there was no way I could have fabricated it as a false memory afterwards. It is fair to suspect it to be a false memory, but I know it wasn't. The test - that will be held soon - should prove once and for all whether I can do this or not.

As for the migraines, it is not I who claims that I healed someone. It is the man who says that his migraines got remarkably better. That is, again, why I'd like to try this again to see if it can produce similar effects. Just in case it can. Don't forget that half of the attempted treatment involves a massage that I design based on how I feel blood vessels and nerves and pressure points, so it's not like it's just a visualization which no one could ever expect to have any effect what so ever. I still wish LightinDarkness would have volunteered for this one.

[jhunter1163]

I'm in Connecticut, and could travel as far as New York given some notice to arrange things. I would be willing to waive privacy for this purpose.

[volatile]

This article reminds me of Anita big time: http://counsellingresource.com/ask-the-psychologist/2008/11/21/supernatural-powers/




"They often believe they have special powers such as:

predicting the future,
the ability to read minds,
the ability to control others with their thoughts,
the ability to heal or diagnose,
the ability to receive messages from the deceased, and
a host of other powers and abilities not normally associated with their culture. "
Errmmm...

Anita has claimed 2, 4 (obviously), 5 and 6.

And it goes on:

"Schizotypal Personalities often report physical and perceptual experiences that tend to justify their belief in having supernatural powers. They typically report a variety of sensations and bodily changes that they link to their supernatural powers, "

I think that bears repeating: Suffers of schizotypal disorder "typically report a variety of sensations and bodily changes that they link to their supernatural powers". Wow. Does that remind you of anyone? Desertgal, I think your proto-diagnosis may have been closer than we thought.


"As part of Schizotypal Personality, she would exhibit (according to the DSM-IV (http://counsellingresource.com/distress/about-dsm-icd.html)):

Ideas of reference: The belief that unrelated objects, experiences in her environment are directly related to her, perhaps feeling she could see patterns in the way people walk nearby or feeling that she knew the radio would play songs in a specific order. She may report the ability to read signs in nature.
Magical thinking: The belief that she has supernatural/magical control over her environment, control of the air or ocean waves, healing, etc. Mental telepathy and clairvoyance are often reported.
Unusual body and sensory perceptions.
Odd and unusual speech and thinking: Speech, thinking and language patterns may be viewed as peculiar by those around her, being overly elaborate, vague, or containing odd phrases/references.
Suspiciousness or paranoid behavior: This experience being created by the excessive ideas of reference, eventually feeling others dislike them or are planning against them.
Inappropriate or constricted affect: An impairment in their emotional response that may be unpredictable, very numb, or otherwise out of the expected range of emotional expression.
Odd and eccentric behavior and appearance: Exhibiting unusual rituals, superstitions, or strange behavior. Attire may be unusual and can take on a “costume” appearance.
Lack of friends due to excessive social anxiety.
If her functioning in the community is as you describe — mature, imaginative, intelligent — this is the most likely explanation, a Schizotypal Personality."

Anita - from what you've said on this forum, I would say you have all seven of these diagnostic criteria. Will you go see a healthcare professional? Take particular note of the primacy of "Unusual body and sensory perceptions" in this list... looks like you're a textbok case.

[desertgal]

I understand all the concern and disbelief. But I did detect the missing kidney and there was no way I could have fabricated it as a false memory afterwards. It is fair to suspect it to be a false memory, but I know it wasn't. The test - that will be held soon - should prove once and for all whether I can do this or not.

[qu0te=VisionFromFeeling]As for the migraines, it is not I who claims that I healed someone. It is the man who says that his migraines got remarkably better.

YOU are the only claiming that. He's not posting here, or anywhere else, making the claim. He's just a anecdote.

Don't forget that half of the attempted treatment involves a massage that I design based on how I feel blood vessels and nerves and pressure points, so it's not like it's just a visualization which no one could ever expect to have any effect what so ever. I still wish LightinDarkness would have volunteered for this one.All it is is I offer a free gentle massage (I specify "gentle", since it involves no skeletal manipulation or other obviously potentially harmful techniques). It is just like offering a hug to someone who is sad.And she changes her story yet again.



http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/1364/vffattentionwhoreadviso.jpg

[GeeMack]

I understand all the concern and disbelief. But I did detect the missing kidney [...]


No, you didn't. Your constant repetition of this lie will not make it true.

[...] and there was no way I could have fabricated it as a false memory afterwards.


Yes, there is. That's how false memories work. Your own recollection of events would seem real and it would seem to you that you didn't or couldn't have fabricated it. You wouldn't recognize it as a false memory. In this case, however, it's very likely you know perfectly well that you created this missing kidney crap from scratch. So most likely it's not a false memory, but an out and out lie.

It is fair to suspect it to be a false memory, but I know it wasn't.


Again, if it were, you wouldn't know it. You would say, sincerely, "I know it wasn't." Also again, we mostly believe you know it wasn't a false memory because you do know it's a work of fiction. Just another lie.

The test - that will be held soon - [...]


Not if you can help it, it won't.

[...] should prove once and for all whether I can do this or not.


And that's why it won't happen. You have demonstrated beyond doubt, by a preponderance of evidence, that you simply will not submit to any sort of testing that would "prove once and for all whether you can do this or not."

As for the migraines, it is not I who claims that I healed someone. It is the man who says that his migraines got remarkably better. That is, again, why I'd like to try this again to see if it can produce similar effects. Just in case it can. Don't forget that half of the attempted treatment involves a massage that I design based on how I feel blood vessels and nerves and pressure points, so it's not like it's just a visualization which no one could ever expect to have any effect what so ever.


It would be attacking the person to say you're full of crap, so I'll go the way of attacking the argument here instead. That, what you just said, is a bunch of crap.

I still wish LightinDarkness would have volunteered for this one.


Considering the piss poor way you treat your volunteers and anyone who offers you assistance, it's probably a good thing that people generally shun any opportunity to be a part of your freak show.

[desertgal]

Desertgal, I think your proto-diagnosis may have been closer than we thought.


Possibly. Now, you might think that might be due my recognizing certain consistencies, after 32 years of dealing with the disorder myself.

But that isn't so, and if you missed it on Anita's website, you get to read it here first. Thanks to Dr. Anita, who is as expert in psychiatry as she is in science and law, it is because I transferred my 'complications' onto her.

The consistencies between Anita's behavior and any personality disorder don't actually exist. She doesn't "feel" mentally ill, so she isn't. We just don't "get it".

Almost 200 people who voted in the survey on UY's website declared that Anita was either suffering from a personality disorder, fooling herself, playing games, or setting up a future scam - and they are all wrong. It's the 6 people who voted that her abilities are real who "get it".

Ain't that right, Anita?

[LightinDarkness]

I understand all the concern and disbelief. But I did detect the missing kidney and there was no way I could have fabricated it as a false memory afterwards. It is fair to suspect it to be a false memory, but I know it wasn't. The test - that will be held soon - should prove once and for all whether I can do this or not.

As for the migraines, it is not I who claims that I healed someone. It is the man who says that his migraines got remarkably better. That is, again, why I'd like to try this again to see if it can produce similar effects. Just in case it can. Don't forget that half of the attempted treatment involves a massage that I design based on how I feel blood vessels and nerves and pressure points, so it's not like it's just a visualization which no one could ever expect to have any effect what so ever. I still wish LightinDarkness would have volunteered for this one.

Not again. Anita, I did volunteer for this but you refused to meet my conditions - you refused to do the test. Then you violated by privacy and defended your violations of my privacy after it was pointed out to you that you had no right to post PMs or my name on your attention whoring website.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I'm in Connecticut, and could travel as far as New York given some notice to arrange things. I would be willing to waive privacy for this purpose.Connecticut and New York are too far for me to travel.

[Kariboo]

Sure, let's do it. Where are you located?

I'm in Connecticut, and could travel as far as New York given some notice to arrange things. I would be willing to waive privacy for this purpose.

Connecticut and New York are too far for me to travel.

Oh, so close....you almost set up a test there.

Where can you travel? since California was not a problem but New York is too far.

[Maia]

"They often believe they have special powers such as:

predicting the future,
the ability to read minds,
the ability to control others with their thoughts,
the ability to heal or diagnose,
the ability to receive messages from the deceased, and
a host of other powers and abilities not normally associated with their culture. "
Errmmm...

Anita has claimed 2, 4 (obviously), 5 and 6.

And it goes on:

"Schizotypal Personalities often report physical and perceptual experiences that tend to justify their belief in having supernatural powers. They typically report a variety of sensations and bodily changes that they link to their supernatural powers, "

I think that bears repeating: Suffers of schizotypal disorder "typically report a variety of sensations and bodily changes that they link to their supernatural powers". Wow. Does that remind you of anyone? Desertgal, I think your proto-diagnosis may have been closer than we thought.


"As part of Schizotypal Personality, she would exhibit (according to the DSM-IV (http://counsellingresource.com/distress/about-dsm-icd.html)):

Ideas of reference: The belief that unrelated objects, experiences in her environment are directly related to her, perhaps feeling she could see patterns in the way people walk nearby or feeling that she knew the radio would play songs in a specific order. She may report the ability to read signs in nature.
Magical thinking: The belief that she has supernatural/magical control over her environment, control of the air or ocean waves, healing, etc. Mental telepathy and clairvoyance are often reported.
Unusual body and sensory perceptions.
Odd and unusual speech and thinking: Speech, thinking and language patterns may be viewed as peculiar by those around her, being overly elaborate, vague, or containing odd phrases/references.
Suspiciousness or paranoid behavior: This experience being created by the excessive ideas of reference, eventually feeling others dislike them or are planning against them.
Inappropriate or constricted affect: An impairment in their emotional response that may be unpredictable, very numb, or otherwise out of the expected range of emotional expression.
Odd and eccentric behavior and appearance: Exhibiting unusual rituals, superstitions, or strange behavior. Attire may be unusual and can take on a “costume” appearance.
Lack of friends due to excessive social anxiety.
If her functioning in the community is as you describe — mature, imaginative, intelligent — this is the most likely explanation, a Schizotypal Personality."

Anita - from what you've said on this forum, I would say you have all seven of these diagnostic criteria. Will you go see a healthcare professional? Take particular note of the primacy of "Unusual body and sensory perceptions" in this list... looks like you're a textbok case.

Clever! ;) Kudos to Volatile. Because Schizotypal Personality Disorder is actually a pretty rare condition, though, I'm still backing either some weird TLE-related thing or BPD.

[Paul2]

ut I did detect the missing kidney and there was no way I could have fabricated it as a false memory afterwards. Why? Why is a false memory not a possibility? Scientifically?

[VisionFromFeeling]

Oh, so close....you almost set up a test there. Where can you travel? since California was not a problem but New York is too far.I'm going to California for the kidney detection test and that's obviously important for me because it will bring final conclusion into the medical perception claim. But to travel a great distance only to meet with one person for an attempt at migraine treatment it will not necessarily provide a final conclusion in that claim and so I do not think it is worth it as much. How far I would travel? Depends on how much it would cost to get there and what I can afford.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Clever! ;) Kudos to Volatile. Because Schizotypal Personality Disorder is actually a pretty rare condition, though, I'm still backing either some weird TLE-related thing or BPD.Please expand your abbreviations.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Keep in mind that synesthesia is by definition not a mental disorder. It is a perfectly valid way of experiencing the world. Very different from those that do not have it. I see colors and shapes where there are really none.

The medical perceptions are when I see images that depict internal tissues and health information. But it really starts as a landscape of colors and shapes that builds up into those images. All of this is an acceptable way of seeing the world and is not of concern. Some people taste sounds, so it really could be worse than what I have! I do not have automatic sense of reality to these perceptions, they are subjective and personal. The only reason I am going through all this trouble to investigate is because the medical perceptions have lead to accurate descriptions of health where external symptoms should not have been available to reach those conclusions of health by ordinary means.

There are countless of reasons why something like this would be of concern. For instance, if my perceptions were uncomfortable or scary to me, which they are not. They are also not a distraction, they do not divert my attention away from my ordinary information processing and awareness. They do not come with automatic sense of reality, I consider them to be subjective impressions and not reality. I have ordinary senses of perceptions and logic that is normal and independent and aside from the synesthesia.

I do not tell people about my perceptions of them. And when my perceptions differ from what is conventionally known, I do not insist that my perceptions would be real and what is objectively agreed to as reality would not be real.

The only reason I am interested in any real-world connection is because I have experienced correlation that is independent of me as the observer. When my perceptions of health agrees with actual health of persons and in cases where there was no way for me to know and no known external symptoms that could have provided a clue. Or when I attempted to treat migraines the person claims dramatic and so far lasting improvement.

The appearance of seemingly reality based perceptions (and the migraine treatment is designed based on my perceptions of the migraine) is not something that I would have chosen, or wanted. I have not been able to falsify these two claims on my own. I can not explain how I could have known certain health information, or why he reports that his migraines improved so dramatically after seeing me. It is fairly simple to assume that I am lying or that I'd be delusional and therefore wrong about my accounts, but it is just not that simple.

I have every right to look into these claims. The perceptions themselves are not a mental condition. And the way I manage the perceptions is also not a mental condition. And my experiences of unexplainable basis in reality is something often confirmed by others and independent of me and also not explainable as a mental condition. I do think these claims are entitled to a test and I think the best we can do is to wait for the tests to take place and to rely on the conclusions offered by those tests. I have to admit that I am unable to conclude on the claims on my own, and you all have to allow that you have not personally experienced my claims and you can not dismiss them just like that. I do know that there is lack of evidence until the tests, but that doesn't mean that I should be discouraged from proceeding to testing my claims.

Just accept that I believe I have had experiences that justify a test. And if the claims are falsified I will have no need to have my mental health evaluated then either because I would resume to having this visual experience of the world but knowing that any occasional correlation is only by chance and explainable.

And I chose to go public about this because I love research and someone else might be interested in the elements of this claim and in the process of undergoing a paranormal investigation.

[LightinDarkness]

Keep in mind that synesthesia is by definition not a mental disorder. It is a perfectly valid way of experiencing the world. Very different from those that do not have it. I see colors and shapes where there are really none.

More lies from VFF. You have provided NO PROOF that you have synesthesia, and you ADMITTED that when you took a online test for it that you FAILED it. You don't have synesthesia, you never have. You have used this as an excuse to try to bring legitimacy to your delusions.


The medical perceptions are when I see images that depict internal tissues and health information. But it really starts as a landscape of colors and shapes that builds up into those images. All of this is an acceptable way of seeing the world and is not of concern. Some people taste sounds, so it really could be worse than what I have! I do not have automatic sense of reality to these perceptions, they are subjective and personal. The only reason I am going through all this trouble to investigate is because the medical perceptions have lead to accurate descriptions of health where external symptoms should not have been available to reach those conclusions of health by ordinary means.

"Medical perceptions" is not synesthesia. It never has been. You have yet to provide any evidence that you have even once had "accurate" perceptions, and have failed again and again at your own tests.


There are countless of reasons why something like this would be of concern. For instance, if my perceptions were uncomfortable or scary to me, which they are not. They are also not a distraction, they do not divert my attention away from my ordinary information processing and awareness. They do not come with automatic sense of reality, I consider them to be subjective impressions and not reality. I have ordinary senses of perceptions and logic that is normal and independent and aside from the synesthesia.

This is all perfectly normal for delusions. If you could tell the difference between reality and the delusions, they would not be delusions.


I have every right to look into these claims. The perceptions themselves are not a mental condition. And the way I manage the perceptions is also not a mental condition. And my experiences of unexplainable basis in reality is something often confirmed by others and independent of me and also not explainable as a mental condition. I do think these claims are entitled to a test and I think the best we can do is to wait for the tests to take place and to rely on the conclusions offered by those tests. I have to admit that I am unable to conclude on the claims on my own, and you all have to allow that you have not personally experienced my claims and you can not dismiss them just like that. I do know that there is lack of evidence until the tests, but that doesn't mean that I should be discouraged from proceeding to testing my claims.

Its just too bad that you always dodge every offer to have you legitimately examine your claims, isn't it? You don't want to test them because you know you would fail.


And I chose to go public about this because I love research and someone else might be interested in the elements of this claim and in the process of undergoing a paranormal investigation.

As a real researcher and academic, don't you dare describe your little games as "research." It is an insult to those of us who do real research. You have yet to launch any legitimate research inquiry into your claims,and you never will.

[bookitty]

Not again. Anita, I did volunteer for this but you refused to meet my conditions - you refused to do the test. Then you violated by privacy and defended your violations of my privacy after it was pointed out to you that you had no right to post PMs or my name on your attention whoring website.

If you don't mind my asking, what were the conditions that VFF refused to consider?

[LightinDarkness]

If you don't mind my asking, what were the conditions that VFF refused to consider?

I told Anita I would provide documentation that I have migraines and then, after giving it a few months (after she practices her woo on me), I would provide documentation that I still have migraines and thus demonstrate her woo did not "heal" me. Upon my providing proof that her woo had failed, Anita would agree to drop her woo in its entirety and go back to being a normal student.

Of course, she declined, because she knows her woo would fail because its not real.

[Sideroxylon]

Anita, in the dowsing thread you demonstrated good critical thinking by saying:

I advise you to read up on the ideomotor effect, just do a web search and you'll find plenty on the subject.

I do encourage you to investigate your claim, but I am highly unconvinced of dowsing but would welcome any evidence to prove otherwise. If you could truly dowse, that would be wonderful. But you need to prove it first. Note that if one had a true dowsing ability, the tests that are set up for dowsers should be very easy to pass.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=153641 (post 6)


Dowsers are at least as self assured of the existence their abilities as you are. They get their signal from the rod and then dig to uncover the item they are looking for. The personal experience of the rods being moved without any apparent input from themselves paired with a hit is powerful stuff. They just “know” it works and fail to see the need for rigorous testing. But you and I know better, don't we. The world is not so simple. We are pattern seeking creatures and we jump to cause effect conclusions without proper justification. Then there is the problem of various cognitive biases and further, mental illness.

You have no more right than the dowsers to make any claims of supernatural ability until you demonstrate that you can score hits beyond chance while under rigorous test conditions that eliminate the mundane explanations. Be the scientist you want to be and do your damnedest to falsify your claims and forget the flashy website full of cheap anecdotes - those are for cranks and charlatans. Why not strip back your belief systems a la Descartes, build up and see what's left. Why not also visit a medical health professional to assure yourself your perceptions are not the result of confounding mischievous demons of the mind - a parsimonious explanation is it not?

Applying sceptical thinking to the beliefs of others is easy but less rewarding than making your own the target.

[bookitty]

I told Anita I would provide documentation that I have migraines and then, after giving it a few months (after she practices her woo on me), I would provide documentation that I still have migraines and thus demonstrate her woo did not "heal" me. Upon my providing proof that her woo had failed, Anita would agree to drop her woo in its entirety and go back to being a normal student.

Of course, she declined, because she knows her woo would fail because its not real.

Thank you for the information. It is odd that your "bet" was enough to make her back off. She's been playing the naif when it comes to results. Anecdotal evidence is proof, right. So why refuse to test you when anything could be twisted to a positive result afterward? The migraine page on her site used to have some malarkey about the skeptic probably lying about getting better and her not caring about that because she just wants to help people, so obviously she had already thought about what she would say.

But suddenly she is worried that she would have to keep her word on something? After all of the manipulation, lies, stalling and evading. Wouldn't it just be one more question to dodge with more martyrdom?

That girl aint right.

[bookitty]

The paragraph I mention has been cached. It reads:
How many psychic claimants or claimed healers (although I don't claim to be a healer) would willingly take the initiative to contact a very tough Skeptic and ask them to be the subject in a test to see whether their claim holds up? Let alone to submit to a test? This Skeptic comes across as someone who strongly dislikes woo and I wouldn't be surprised if he hates me and dispises me. Meanwhile I am looking forward to meeting him and finding out whether he might experience some relief in his migraines after the "treatment". There is the possibility that this one is not an objective Skeptic, what if he experiences improvement in his migraines but doesn't want to tell us? Then I would be glad that he has experienced improvement. None of this is about me, it is about others and to find out whether I might be of any help.

[Farencue]

I told Anita I would provide documentation that I have migraines and then, after giving it a few months (after she practices her woo on me), I would provide documentation that I still have migraines and thus demonstrate her woo did not "heal" me. Upon my providing proof that her woo had failed, Anita would agree to drop her woo in its entirety and go back to being a normal student.

Of course, she declined, because she knows her woo would fail because its not real.

with respect LiD, perhaps Anita simply is not a normal student?

[VisionFromFeeling]

More lies from VFF. You have provided NO PROOF that you have synesthesia, and you ADMITTED that when you took a online test for it that you FAILED it. You don't have synesthesia, you never have. You have used this as an excuse to try to bring legitimacy to your delusions. I have plenty of reason to suspect that I have some forms of synesthesia. The online tests did not test for the forms of synesthesia that I think I have so that online test is inconclusive as to whether I have the synesthesia I claim.

"Medical perceptions" is not synesthesia. It never has been. You have yet to provide any evidence that you have even once had "accurate" perceptions, and have failed again and again at your own tests.The medical perceptions start as colors and shapes. I have searched scientific literature and not come across a case of synesthesia toward tissues and health information.

This is all perfectly normal for delusions. If you could tell the difference between reality and the delusions, they would not be delusions.When the medical perceptions are accurate it leads me to wonder whether they are subjective or reality-based. For instance I could be unintentionally picking up subtle external clues that translate into corresponding images and felt information about health. That is still my main hypothesis for why I need to see the person in order to form medical perceptions.

Its just too bad that you always dodge every offer to have you legitimately examine your claims, isn't it? You don't want to test them because you know you would fail.You're the one who declined having the simple migraine test with me. The official kidney detection test should take place by the end of this year. Do not turn your impatience into false assumptions, and I have every incentive to falsify the claims if that is where they are headed.

As a real researcher and academic, don't you dare describe your little games as "research." It is an insult to those of us who do real research. You have yet to launch any legitimate research inquiry into your claims,and you never will.The test for medical perceptions will take place by the end of this year. And the migraine test would have taken place by now had you not declined your previous offer. Have some patience.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I told Anita I would provide documentation that I have migraines and then, after giving it a few months (after she practices her woo on me), I would provide documentation that I still have migraines and thus demonstrate her woo did not "heal" me. Upon my providing proof that her woo had failed, Anita would agree to drop her woo in its entirety and go back to being a normal student.

Of course, she declined, because she knows her woo would fail because its not real.Some researcher you are. If you volunteer to take part in a test whose hypothesis is "receiving attempted migraine treatment will coincide with noticeable improvement in migraine condition" and null hypothesis "receiving attempted migraine treatment will not coincide with noticeable improvement in migraine condition", in which proving the hypothesis does not prove the claim on which it is based but proving the null hypothesis qualifies to falsify the claim. (If this sounds crazy, don't worry, this is how science is written.) Since YOU are the observer and solely in charge of establishing any effect that coincides with the att. treatment you are obliged to remain objective and open to any changes. You are here stating that you are already biased and expecting a certain result, and that might affect your judgement. These kinds of comments might disqualify you from my research, and might disqualify you as a researcher. Re-read what you just wrote and see if you are humble enough to agree.

And since you claim to be a researcher, you do know that if a scientist has two research hypotheses, that are related but not identical, one does not necessarily falsify the other. For instance in the chemistry lab you might be testing two different but similar compounds. Very often in chemistry, changing a molecule only slightly can change its effects dramatically. But above all, the medical perceptions claim is headed toward its own test that will falsify it properly and I still don't see why you are trying to discourage me from falsifying that claim with the IIG test. I am willing to falsify the migraine claim if it fails to coincide with improvement, but I would not allow that to falsify the medical perceptions claim with it.

The reason I declined is not because I would know that it would fail. The reason I am interested in having a migraine test is exactly because I would hope to falsify the claim.

I don't see why some of you are so stubborn and insisting on things that are not true, then when you judge my character, mental health, and scientific credibility based on your own incorrect assumptions about me and I object you all call me a liar and delusional because I am not what you imagine me to be.

You don't come across as a good researcher, LightinDarkness.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Thank you for the information. It is odd that your "bet" was enough to make her back off. She's been playing the naif when it comes to results. Anecdotal evidence is proof, right. So why refuse to test you when anything could be twisted to a positive result afterward? The migraine page on her site used to have some malarkey about the skeptic probably lying about getting better and her not caring about that because she just wants to help people, so obviously she had already thought about what she would say.

But suddenly she is worried that she would have to keep her word on something? After all of the manipulation, lies, stalling and evading. Wouldn't it just be one more question to dodge with more martyrdom?

That girl aint right.How rude. I am very willing to try the migraine treatment with LightinDarkness and to falsify the migraine claim if there is no improvement in the migraine condition. I just won't falsify the medical perceptions claim along with it, because they are not the same claim and because I am having an IIG test on the medical perceptions SOON.

[volatile]

I will have the test and I will not see a mental health professional because if the perceptions are inaccurate after all then all they are is synesthesia

No. No. A thousand times no. These are not the only two options. And you call yourself a "scientist"?

[StevenCalder]

Guys shes just reiterating stuff we've already explained to her : why we think shes most likely a l **************, why the way shes approaching her claims is not scientific, she doesn't have synesthesia etc

Its stuff that has been explained or rebutted, but shes just ignored that.

We don't risk repeating ourselves here as we've already repeated ourselves over and over. If she chooses to ignore that theres little we can do.

I'd say best to let the thread die until after the IIG test or new claims/points are raised. There is no progress to be made here, just feeding of a potential attention addict.

Edited for civility

[GeeMack]

Okay, Anita, just so we know we're all on the same plane here, in order to help us understand what has and has not been considered as possible causes for your claims of these alleged perceptions, here are a couple of simple, clearly stated questions...

(1) Regarding your alleged effort to try to determine the truth about your alleged perceptions, please answer with a simple yes or no, have you undergone a professional assessment of your mental health in relation to these claims?

(2) Regarding your alleged suspicion that your alleged perceptions might be the result of synesthesia, please answer with a simple yes or no, have you undergone a professional analysis to determine whether what you claim is in fact a synesthetic experience?

And if you can just answer yes or no and avoid your typical lying, evading, ignorance, and double talk, it would be great. Some of us, well everyone except you actually, is making an effort to be at least somewhat scientific about this, and if we know where you stand regarding possible simple, easily determined, mundane, everyday explanations for your alleged perceptions, we can know better how to proceed when dealing with you.

Edited for lack of civility, breach of Rule 12

Again, simple, straight up, yes or no replies to the two questions above would be most helpful.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Guys shes just reiterating stuff we've already explained to her : why we think shes most likely a ***************, why the way shes approaching her claims is not scientific, she doesn't have synesthesia etc

Its stuff that has been explained or rebutted, but shes just ignored that.

We don't risk repeating ourselves here as we've already repeated ourselves over and over. If she chooses to ignore that theres little we can do.

I'd say best to let the thread die until after the IIG test or new claims/points are raised. There is no progress to be made here, just feeding of a potential attention addict.Moderated content removed.I am not a liar and I am not delusional. I did detect the missing kidney, and the many other things that I should not have been able to know about. And the man I attempted to treat claims that his migraines got better and that the effect has been lasting still three or four months after. And I think it is the most scientific thing to do to submit these claims to tests, and that is exactly what I am doing.

What exactly am I ignoring? Do you expect me to agree that I was lying when I wasn't lying? Or that I'd be delusional when I am not? I am not here for attention. It's just that I'm having a paranormal investigation. And I don't like reading personal attacks about me here without being allowed to defend myself. If you attack me, I defend myself.

[StevenCalder]

I am not a liar and I am not delusional. I did detect the missing kidney, and the many other things that I should not have been able to know about. And the man I attempted to treat claims that his migraines got better and that the effect has been lasting still three or four months after. And I think it is the most scientific thing to do to submit these claims to tests, and that is exactly what I am doing.

What exactly am I ignoring? Do you expect me to agree that I was lying when I wasn't lying? Or that I'd be delusional when I am not? I am not here for attention. It's just that I'm having a paranormal investigation. And I don't like reading personal attacks about me here without being allowed to defend myself. If you attack me, I defend myself.

If you didn't ignore any of the points you will fully understand why people think your a liar or delusional. You will understand why you saying "I really did detect the kidney, honest!" means nothing, especially given your history. You will understand why you saying "I really did heal the migraine, honest!" means nothing, especially given your history.

You have given nothing to sugge- Damn it. I got drawn in. I've said these exact same things before...

[VisionFromFeeling]

Okay, Anita, just so we know we're all on the same plane here, in order to help us understand what has and has not been considered as possible causes for your claims of these alleged perceptions, here are a couple of simple, clearly stated questions...

(1) Regarding your alleged effort to try to determine the truth about your alleged perceptions, please answer with a simple yes or no, have you undergone a professional assessment of your mental health in relation to these claims?Almost. I guess I can share some more personal information here. After I was hit and mistreated by a professor (which I mentioned long time ago because y'all were wondering why I didn't have the 4.0) I became depressed and met with a psychiatrist. During what was a mental health assessment she did ask if I had any unusual experiences and I did mention the medical perceptions, but she did not say anything about that and my only diagnose was "depression" so obviously she didn't think it was a problem. The way I described the perceptions to her was very thoroughly, I said that ever since I worked at a nursing home I realized that I was very intuitive toward other people's health and accurate in cases where I shouldn't have been able to know what I knew, and that I am investigating the perceptions to determine whether there is accuracy or not and whether any of them detect information that I shouldn't be able to know.

The perceptions themselves are no reason for concern. I hope we can all agree at least up to that point. I assume the concern is that I am investigating the perceptions for possible real-world correlation, is that right? In that case I will not take your advice to see a mental health professional because I KNOW the perceptions were accurate and I did not hallucinate any of it.

(2) Regarding your alleged suspicion that your alleged perceptions might be the result of synesthesia, please answer with a simple yes or no, have you undergone a professional analysis to determine whether what you claim is in fact a synesthetic experience?No I have not.

And if you can just answer yes or no and avoid your typical lying, evading, ignorance, and double talk, it would be great. Some of us, well everyone except you actually, is making an effort to be at least somewhat scientific about this, and if we know where you stand regarding possible simple, easily determined, mundane, everyday explanations for your alleged perceptions, we can know better how to proceed when dealing with you.I have never lied or evaded questions. It is just that I am not answering questions in the way that you would want me to and that's because none of this is the way it should be. I have detected that a kidney was missing when I shouldn't have been able to.

So far we've determined that you might have a mental health problem, you might be a compulsive liar, delusional, a totally bogus fraud, a simple Internet attention whore or troll, and of course several other possibilities exist. It would be helpful to know which of those possibilities may have been legitimately explored and perhaps eliminated, and which are still on the table.But I disagree with that. The perceptions themselves are no reason for concern. And I really have experienced accuracy in the perceptions. But I am none of those things! I have told the truth!

[desertgal]

Actually, I have not lied about ANYTHING that I have ever said on this Forum or elsewhere about my claims!

Yes, you have. I've even proven that you have.
From the blog at www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com: (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com:)
The reason I called in the past was to ask you to stop the racist thread where I am portrayed as some racist against black people when all I had said was that I find the perceptions of their tissues much more healthy and beautiful than perceptions from white people...But, that wasn't ALL you said, was it?
"I confirm that black people are harder [to read with her "ability"]. They have fewer health problems and their tissues & internal chemicals chemistry etc.is different. I perceive that the bodies of black people would react very differently to having an open flesh-wound than would white people. That they have a much stronger system that produces the sticky yellow liquid that washes, seals, dries, and protects a wound. I perceive that black people have much fewer different types of chemicals in the body than do white people. Enzymes, perhaps. The variety of chemicals in white people's blood and tissues is much more diverse. According to my perception. I hate to say it but I perceive that black people in general would have a shorter lifespan. I hate to say it but I perceive a much larger variety of health problems and also of genetic problems and structural abnormalities in white people than I do in black people. Thus black people being healthier with this regard. I perceive that black people would be more prone to ankle arthritis or ankle problems, whereas white people would be more prone to wrist arthritis or wrist problems.

Stop lying desertgal! You know fully well that I am a double-major science student headed toward a career in conventional medicine! I am headed toward a very rewarding career and would have no incentive to try to make money off woo. I have already said I haven't chosen woo, I experience woo and I try to investigate and explain that woo and I am ready to falsify that woo and find explanations to it. Stop lying, VisionFromFeeling! You said your ability is synesthesia. Now we're back to woo again?

No they are not. The perceptions themselves are exactly what synesthesia is, and that by definition is not a mental illness.Which can only be proven when you have gone to a doctor and confirmed that you have synesthesia. Until then, it's just your imagination.

And the fact that I claim to have experienced real-world correlation has been confirmed by others and independent of me as the observer, although not yet in forms that could have provided formal evidence.No proof, no truth.


And if I attempt migraine treatment and it coincides with incredible improvement then I have incentive to test the migraine claim. Pure fantasy.

I already KNOW I don't have formal evidence. All I am saying is that you should be objective and realize that I personally believe that I have reason to test both of these claims. How many times do we have to say it to you? We realize that you claim to personally believe your claims. But, we don't believe them. See above-I've already proven that you lie to suit whatever your current story is. That makes you a ****. No one here has any reason to believe that you are telling the truth about anything you claim.

Please stop calling me a whore, desertgal. The tests are going to be held soon. We'll see. The test has been just around the corner for over two years now. We'll believe it when it actually happens.

When in fact none of what I have said has been a lie. Only unbelievable, which is why there is a paranormal claim in the first place.Changing your story again...I thought it was synesthesia?

WARNING!! WARNING!! WARNING!!
The VisionFromFeeling Attention Whore Advisory System is now on RED ALERT. Please keep your arms and legs inside reality at all times. If you are hit with a flying lie, call 1-800-THE-RHINE-they have experience in these matters. Please do not look directly at the woo, as migraines may occur. If you experience kidney loss, don't be concerned-it's only imaginary....

Edited for civility.

[Locknar]

Thread set to Moderated status due to lack of civility, ignoring previous Moderator warnings, bickering/name calling, off-topic posts, etc.

Insults and mental health comments/diagnoses are not civil nor do they address the OP...which in this case is VisionFromFeeling's claims related to the "Migraine Test" and LightinDarkness.

Discussion of other claims made by VisionFromFeeling's (such as the "Kidney Test", "synesthesia", etc.) should be done in the appropriate threads.

[LightinDarkness]

Oh, look! Yet another VFF thread where VFF complains to the moderators because the truth hurts to much.

I have plenty of reason to suspect that I have some forms of synesthesia. The online tests did not test for the forms of synesthesia that I think I have so that online test is inconclusive as to whether I have the synesthesia I claim.
....
The medical perceptions start as colors and shapes. I have searched scientific literature and not come across a case of synesthesia toward tissues and health information.

This is further proof that you are simply embracing delusions. You admit there is absolutely no example in the literature of "medical perceptions" as shapes and colors. You admit you failed the online test you took for synesthesia.

A reasonable person would conclude, therefore, that you do not have synesthesia. But oh no..not you. You have to believe you are "special" and have some undocumented case of this that there is NO support for and that current tests for the condition fail to find.


When the medical perceptions are accurate it leads me to wonder whether they are subjective or reality-based. For instance I could be unintentionally picking up subtle external clues that translate into corresponding images and felt information about health. That is still my main hypothesis for why I need to see the person in order to form medical perceptions.

Of course the problem is that there is no proof that your "medical perceptions" have EVER been accurate. That is because they are delusions.


You're the one who declined having the simple migraine test with me. The official kidney detection test should take place by the end of this year. Do not turn your impatience into false assumptions, and I have every incentive to falsify the claims if that is where they are headed.

Anita lies again. You are the one who wanted to practice your woo on me but ran from it once I told you my conditions. You refused to take the test. Then you violated my explicit requests for privacy on private messages and continue to do so. You abuse your volunteers like you own them, and show no class whatsoever.


The test for medical perceptions will take place by the end of this year. And the migraine test would have taken place by now had you not declined your previous offer. Have some patience.

No it won't. Just like all of your other tests never take place. Perhaps if you would not have declined to take your own migraine test it would have taken place by now?

[LightinDarkness]

Some researcher you are. If you volunteer to take part in a test whose hypothesis is "receiving attempted migraine treatment will coincide with noticeable improvement in migraine condition" and null hypothesis "receiving attempted migraine treatment will not coincide with noticeable improvement in migraine condition", in which proving the hypothesis does not prove the claim on which it is based but proving the null hypothesis qualifies to falsify the claim. (If this sounds crazy, don't worry, this is how science is written.) Since YOU are the observer and solely in charge of establishing any effect that coincides with the att. treatment you are obliged to remain objective and open to any changes. You are here stating that you are already biased and expecting a certain result, and that might affect your judgement. These kinds of comments might disqualify you from my research, and might disqualify you as a researcher. Re-read what you just wrote and see if you are humble enough to agree.

Anita continues to show that she has no idea what research actually means, just like she does not know what skeptic actually means. Time for you to be educated, again:

A migraine test is a horrible test for your proclaimed supernatural powers. The literature shows that those who suffer from migraines often do not have them in any pattern what so ever, and they can have them for days on end and then have the condition disappear for month. You cannot reliably test the effect of your woo on migraines, therefore, because you have no way to reliably measure the effect of the independent variable you have introduced (your woo) to the dependent variable that we are observing (presence of migraines).

Further, although I recognize you are simply practicing delusions I cannot materially impact the independent variable. Although it is better to have a blind test, you are the one who originally harassed me to practice your woo. Get the facts straight.


And since you claim to be a researcher, you do know that if a scientist has two research hypotheses, that are related but not identical, one does not necessarily falsify the other. For instance in the chemistry lab you might be testing two different but similar compounds. Very often in chemistry, changing a molecule only slightly can change its effects dramatically. But above all, the medical perceptions claim is headed toward its own test that will falsify it properly and I still don't see why you are trying to discourage me from falsifying that claim with the IIG test. I am willing to falsify the migraine claim if it fails to coincide with improvement, but I would not allow that to falsify the medical perceptions claim with it.

Anita continues to demonstrate she does not know what research is and has never been a researcher. Your woo claims all relate to a source hypothesis, and real researchers when they find such hypothesis are able to test for one and disprove related chain hypothesis. Of course you don't know this because you are incapable of research.


The reason I declined is not because I would know that it would fail. The reason I am interested in having a migraine test is exactly because I would hope to falsify the claim.

The reason you declined is because you know it would fail, which is why you will never agree to a real test or any test that requires you to drop the woo.


I don't see why some of you are so stubborn and insisting on things that are not true, then when you judge my character, mental health, and scientific credibility based on your own incorrect assumptions about me and I object you all call me a liar and delusional because I am not what you imagine me to be.

No amount of you telling lies is going to change the facts, Anita. Stop pulling the martyr card - YOU have shown yourself for who you REALLY are. And it is a ugly picture. Perhaps you should stop showing your true character if you do not wish to be judged by your despicable actions?


You don't come across as a good researcher, LightinDarkness.

I would be positively horrified if someone who has absolutely no grasp of the scientific method or research thought I was a good researcher. It would insult me. Thankfully, your opinion shows what I am indeed quite good at research. Your opinion will matter when we see your list of publications and your graduate degree programs.

[bookitty]

<Snipping out bad science>

I am willing to falsify the migraine claim if it fails to coincide with improvement, but I would not allow that to falsify the medical perceptions claim with it.

The reason I declined is not because I would know that it would fail. The reason I am interested in having a migraine test is exactly because I would hope to falsify the claim.

I don't see why some of you are so stubborn and insisting on things that are not true, then when you judge my character, mental health, and scientific credibility based on your own incorrect assumptions about me and I object you all call me a liar and delusional because I am not what you imagine me to be.

You don't come across as a good researcher, LightinDarkness.

VFF on your website you claim that you used this treatment to (att.) "cure" migraines.
In those images I found a black vibrational substance sitting inside the brain just above the optical nerves...

In the second part of the treatment, working entirely in the images I had in my mind and using a visualization technique, I chopped the black substance into pieces and removed them.

So you are claiming that you manipulated something in this man's mind. Would you be willing to come up with a test that did not use humans? For example, you could use this same technique to cause blindness in a lab rat.

If that test does not suit you I would be interest to hear what your alternative might be. I only ask that the test:

A) Not be performed on a human.
b) Have results that can be proven outside your perception.

Perhaps using actual science to come up with a result that is not purely subjective will allow you to understand the resistance to the "I really, really, really did!" method.

[Jeff Corey]

Scientists have some pretty strict rules against harming nonhuman animals or using them for frivolous purposes..
I doubt than any reputable institution's Animal Care Committee would have anything to do with this nonsense.

[fromdownunder]

Anita will you please give us the time and date of the IIG kidney teat as you have claimed on this thread that you have given IIG the protocol and the time and date of the test?

Yu have ignored this queston several times so far, so I can only assume that you lied in your response, which put paid to your statement that you have never lied on this Board or anywhere else.

Give us the time and date, and you will be shown not to be a liar. If you cannot/do not do this, one of the things you said on this thread is a lie, making you a liar.

Norm

[pakeha]

Sorry if I've been unclear.
Since when is honouring a potential volunteer's privacy, at his/her strenuous insistence, censorship?
Does VFF really imagine posting this sort of conflict on her website could inspire anything but the suspicion the author(ess) has serious emotional issues to resolve before claiming abilities to 'see' and att. treat?
...

I am at a loss to understand VFF's insistence on ignoring the legitimacy of LinD's complaint, re-iterated on this thread by LinD in person.
And I repeat myself: how does VFF expect to find volunteers if VFF actually posts up and confirms her lack of respect for a volunteer's request for privacy.

I also find find VFF's denial of 'remote viewing' abilities very confusing, especially after reading the messages she sent UJ just the other day.

I also find especially disturbing VFF's own comments on racial differences as she perceives them.
Anyway, here's hoping the IIG prelimiary test actually happens.

[LightinDarkness]

I am at a loss to understand VFF's insistence on ignoring the legitimacy of LinD's complaint, re-iterated on this thread by LinD in person.
And I repeat myself: how does VFF expect to find volunteers if VFF actually posts up and confirms her lack of respect for a volunteer's request for privacy.


I have often pondered this since this thread started. Its even been pointed out to her - by MULTIPLE people - that acting like this towards even potential volunteers is only going to ensure no sane person goes near her. No amount of good intentions and wanting to help Anita break free of her delusions is going to matter when she keeps harassing and insulting the very people she expects to help her prove her woo is real.

Although I doubt it, the IGG test may very well happen - but if it does, be ready for a volley of excuses. If Anita actually goes through with the test and (when it falsifies her ability) she comes to JREF and admits that the test shows she does not have paranormal powers, I'll donate $500 to Anita's charity of choice. When she fails to do so, I'll donate it to the humane society (the charity I give to currently).

[VisionFromFeeling]

Edited for moderated thread.
Anita lies again. You are the one who wanted to practice your woo on me but ran from it once I told you my conditions. You refused to take the test. Then you violated my explicit requests for privacy on private messages and continue to do so. You abuse your volunteers like you own them, and show no class whatsoever. The ironic thing is that I have not lied about anything. Your conditions that if the migraine treatment fails to coincide with improvement in your migraine condition that I withdraw my medical perceptions claim and not proceed with the official IIG test to falsify it, is unreasonable. Just as UncaYimmy's request that I hand over to him the ownership of my website www.visionfromfeeling.com and/or give him $10,000. And you were the one who wanted our correspondence to be public. You then changed your mind, and so I have removed the information that perhaps you are embarrassed about since it shows how you are evasive as a Skeptic and do not want to take part in a test with me. I wholeheartedly agreed to falsify the migraine healing claim if the test with you would have failed to coincide with improvement in your migraines, but somehow that is not good enough. Would you like $10,000 too, or how about some naked pictures of me? (Things that UncaYimmy has asked of me.) :p

No it won't. Just like all of your other tests never take place. Perhaps if you would not have declined to take your own migraine test it would have taken place by now?The kidney detection test will take place soon. YOU are the one who declined to take part in the migraine test. The only thing I declined to regarding that, is to have you discourage me from proceeding with the IIG test.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Anita continues to show that she has no idea what research actually means, just like she does not know what skeptic actually means. Time for you to be educated, again:

A migraine test is a horrible test for your proclaimed supernatural powers. The literature shows that those who suffer from migraines often do not have them in any pattern what so ever, and they can have them for days on end and then have the condition disappear for month. You cannot reliably test the effect of your woo on migraines, therefore, because you have no way to reliably measure the effect of the independent variable you have introduced (your woo) to the dependent variable that we are observing (presence of migraines).I agree that the migraine healing claim would be a difficult one to test and to verify, although easy to falsify. I have already described (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html) the dramatic improvement claimed by the man I attempted to treat. If such an improvement would consistently coincide with each of the persons I attempt to treat for migraines, then that would indicate that perhaps there is something to this. My dream would be to have plenty of volunteers such that some of them would be randomly chosen to receive a blank treatment and so we could perhaps see a pattern developing between those that received a "sugar pill" and those that received an honest attempt of a treatment.

Of course if I were to go about having an actual migraine test that involves several volunteers I would actually not attempt to design or conduct the test on my own because there are others who are far more professional in those things.

Further, although I recognize you are simply practicing delusions I cannot materially impact the independent variable. Although it is better to have a blind test, you are the one who originally harassed me to practice your woo. Get the facts straight.Delusions? I accept that you may certainly suspect my visualization technique to be entirely subjective and imaginary and without real-world effect, but don't forget there is also a massage involved and an actual massage is not a delusion. It might be designed based on a delusion, who knows. But I am not delusional about the dramatic improvement the man claims to have had. If all it were is a delusion in the man's mind, then at least his delusion leads to significant relief in his migraine condition. If I were able to induce a delusion in migraine sufferers such that they do not experience their migraines, I think a lot of migraine sufferers would be interested in having such delusions.

Anita continues to demonstrate she does not know what research is and has never been a researcher. Your woo claims all relate to a source hypothesis, and real researchers when they find such hypothesis are able to test for one and disprove related chain hypothesis. Of course you don't know this because you are incapable of research. I certainly hope you are not a staff or faculty at the Chemistry department of Duke university. Very often there are classes of similar chemical compounds where one minor difference in structure or minor change in experimental procedure leads to significantly different results in terms of reactivity and properties. In Chemistry, at least, one may not always assume that the results of one experiment applies to all other nearly similar experiments. A lot of discoveries would have gone undiscovered that way.

The reason you declined is because you know it would fail, which is why you will never agree to a real test or any test that requires you to drop the woo.The reason I wanted to have the migraine test is to falsify the claim. I would wholeheartedly agree to a migraine test with you or with any other skeptic as the volunteer. You know fully well that the only reason you declined to volunteer for the migraine test is because I would not let a falsified migraine claim discourage me from having the official IIG test. Why don't you ask for $10,000 if I fail the test and then accuse me of avoiding the test?

I've worked for over two years now to arrange the IIG test on the medical perceptions claim. That test will be able to falsify that claim, and I don't want to just drop the claim - like you ask me to. What sets a better example for other woos? That I falsified a claim because I designed a test, accepted the test protocols, carried out a fair test, failed the test and agreed that the claim is scientifically falsified, or that I say that I falsified the claim because "a Skeptic told me so."

No amount of you telling lies is going to change the facts, Anita. Stop pulling the martyr card - YOU have shown yourself for who you REALLY are. And it is a ugly picture. Perhaps you should stop showing your true character if you do not wish to be judged by your despicable actions? Despicable actions? Because I have had unusual experiences that I can't deny or explain of accurate medical perceptions and the man I attempted to treat claiming incredible improvement and because I am then interested in testing those claims according to the skeptical and scientific method? I think you are the one being despicable for trying to discourage me from having the IIG test. Not to mention for wanting us to make our correspondence public and then turning around and saying how mean I was for posting that information.

I would be positively horrified if someone who has absolutely no grasp of the scientific method or research thought I was a good researcher. It would insult me. Thankfully, your opinion shows what I am indeed quite good at research. Your opinion will matter when we see your list of publications and your graduate degree programs.I don't want to tell you about my publications or research work because I do not want to involve my professional life or career here.

[bookitty]

Although I doubt it, the IGG test may very well happen - but if it does, be ready for a volley of excuses. If Anita actually goes through with the test and (when it falsifies her ability) she comes to JREF and admits that the test shows she does not have paranormal powers, I'll donate $500 to Anita's charity of choice. When she fails to do so, I'll donate it to the humane society (the charity I give to currently).

She is already setting up those excuses. Her new story is that she expects to fail and does not believe she has any paranormal ability. She is hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

But it might be moot since she also claiming now that her ability is nothing more than cold reading. In her own words from UncleYimmy's site, http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com:

I'm not trying to fool anyone. All I am saying is that I believe I have experienced interesting correlating medical perceptions that I can't deny or find an explanation for. And the only consequence of that is that I will have a paranormal test with the IIG. I absolutely do not believe I have a paranormal ability, I just think I've had interesting accurate perceptions of health. My main hypothesis is that I am unintentionally and subconsciously picking up subtle external clues about a person's health when I look at them and that it translates into corresponding images of health. I don't know. The first thing to do is to establish whether there is a significant accuracy or not that is beyond what a person should be able to acchieve.

You have to wonder why a paranormal claimant who is well versed in the language of the JREF would confess to cold reading. Perhaps she is trying to get the IIG test canceled?

[SezMe]

I am in the process of getting independent verification of this claim. As soon as I have more info, I'll post it here.
For now, I cannot follow up on this promise.

Remember, for now ......

[Cuddles]

My main hypothesis is that I am unintentionally and subconsciously picking up subtle external clues about a person's health when I look at them and that it translates into corresponding images of health.

You have to wonder why a paranormal claimant who is well versed in the language of the JREF would confess to cold reading. Perhaps she is trying to get the IIG test canceled?

You also have to wonder why someone who claims to be able to see inside bodies at a molecular level, including the ability to zoom in and out, rotate in 3D and so on, would consider cold reading a possible explanation.

More to the point of this thread, you also have to wonder how someone who claims healing abilities could think cold reading and synaesthesia sound in any way plausible as explanations. They could be potential explanations for perceptions (although I should note not for VFF's claimed perceptions), but they certainly aren't anything worth mentioning when it comes to real effects on other people.

[desertgal]

The ironic thing is that I have not lied about anything.

No? You claimed to have an affidavit from your migraine 'patient', supporting your anecdote-where is it?

I have already described (http://www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html) the dramatic improvement claimed by the man I attempted to treat.

Yes, you have, ad nauseum. But, you seem to take it for granted that we believe this man exists and/or that he actually claims this improvement. For all we know, he and his dramatic improvement may well be a figment of your imagination. Expert 'researcher' that you pretend to be, you still, after all this time 'investigating', still fail to do it properly. You have no affidavits or signed statements-nothing to support what you say. The reality is that YOU only say some man claims this, and YOU have no credibility. So, you can stop reiterating his claim of dramatic improvement as if we accept it as evidence. YOU do, WE don't.

It is the same with your "missing kidney" anecdote. You continue to state that there is a correlation between your perception and reality. But, where is the supporting data from the subject? You repeatedly refuse to produce your own raw data from that particular episode, so there is no verification that Dr. Carlson is, in fact, missing a kidney. I don't doubt his word if he were to confirm it, but he has not done so. For all we know, he set you up to prove that you 'postdict' your perceptions.

[bookitty]

Wait, what? There is no hard evidence that Dr. Carlson is missing a kidney? The mind boggles.

I may have mentioned this before but it is beyond irresponsible for VFF to test her migraine cure on humans. By her own words she is using "vibrating energy" on the optic nerves of the brain. If there is anything to her claim, this could be very dangerous.

There is nothing to suggest that this treatment works. There is no real medical treatment that has been put into practice after one test. Especially an inconclusive test in which the researcher themselves says "the attempted healing is nothing but useless and ridiculous."

In addition, this "healing" technique has never been tested under safe lab conditions. VFF has made NO effort to design a safe protocol. She avoids all questions about any potential harm. Only saying that if something were to go wrong, it would be a coincidence.

It doesn't matter that the "att. treatment" is not effective. That has not been proved. If the treatment is ineffective, there is no reason for her to try it. If it is effective, there is the potential for harm.

The fact that she is reaching out to less critical migraine sufferers is appalling. Does she tell them that she has never tested this for safety? No, she only tells them that she doesn't think it will work but that she will be happy to try and then she discusses how her woo works. (When she bothers to tell them that she is att. a treatment)

If any doctor had discovered a new compound that seemed inert, that one single patient claimed was effective (although there was no testing to prove it) and then started using this compound on many patients, he would be jailed.

[VisionFromFeeling]

Although I doubt it, the IGG test may very well happen - but if it does, be ready for a volley of excuses. If Anita actually goes through with the test and (when it falsifies her ability) she comes to JREF and admits that the test shows she does not have paranormal powers, I'll donate $500 to Anita's charity of choice. When she fails to do so, I'll donate it to the humane society (the charity I give to currently).I will have that $500 donated to the Independent Investigations Group IIG West of Hollywood. They are kind enough to go through the work and effort to put together a test for me, and I am sure their organization has expenses or that they could think of something to do with that money that would further their work in skepticism and in the community. Thank you.

And if I pass the IIG tests and win the $50,000 I will of course also be donating part of it back to the IIG (and some to the JREF). This is nice. Either way IIG can look forward to some money! :)

[pakeha]

Well, well, well.
So there's not as yet any proof the famous dr Carlson is actually missing a kidney.
That's good. Even so, not as good as that VFF has no explanation or comment about her comments/perceptions about blacks' 'different' internal chemistry.

Originally Posted by VisionFromFeeling
"I confirm that black people are harder [to read with her "ability"]. They have fewer health problems and their tissues & internal chemicals chemistry etc.is different. I perceive that the bodies of black people would react very differently to having an open flesh-wound than would white people. That they have a much stronger system that produces the sticky yellow liquid that washes, seals, dries, and protects a wound. I perceive that black people have much fewer different types of chemicals in the body than do white people. Enzymes, perhaps. The variety of chemicals in white people's blood and tissues is much more diverse. According to my perception. I hate to say it but I perceive that black people in general would have a shorter lifespan. I hate to say it but I perceive a much larger variety of health problems and also of genetic problems and structural abnormalities in white people than I do in black people. Thus black people being healthier with this regard. I perceive that black people would be more prone to ankle arthritis or ankle problems, whereas white people would be more prone to wrist arthritis or wrist problems.

Are there any studies which back up this wrist/ankle arthritis perception?

[desertgal]

Are there any studies which back up this wrist/ankle arthritis perception?

No.

[volatile]

She can tell black and white people apart? OK, so we're back to a really simple ABX test, with burqas. Some black guys, some white guys - VFF has to say which is which when they are covered by a full-body burqa.

Any objections to this really simple test?

[Femke]

She can tell black and white people apart? OK, so we're back to a really simple ABX test, with burqas. Some black guys, some white guys - VFF has to say which is which when they are covered by a full-body burqa.

Any objections to this really simple test?

Of course. This is doable, volunteers are relatively easy to find, and the result would be self-evident. No way this will be acceptable.

Oh, I feel vibes, some phrases coming up. 'Not my main claim' and 'remote viewing', does that mean anything to anyone?

[pakeha]

An excellent idea.
What does VFF think of it?

[fromdownunder]

She can tell black and white people apart? OK, so we're back to a really simple ABX test, with burqas. Some black guys, some white guys - VFF has to say which is which when they are covered by a full-body burqa.

Any objections to this really simple test?

Well, actually I do. I once knew a brother and sister, who had mixed parentage, Aboriginal and European. The man was as black as the Ace of Spades, and the woman was a blonde Nordic type - you would never guess that they were brother and sister, or that he had a white parent, or
she had a black one.

What does "black" and "white" really mean? What % of ancestral blood constitutes a hit/miss. And after a few generations, unless you have a full collection of blood tests from every direct ancestor, how can you really ever know?

Norm

[volatile]

Oh, I feel vibes, some phrases coming up. 'Not my main claim' and 'remote viewing', does that mean anything to anyone?

This is entirely within the limits she has claimed, and accommodates event the objection to the screen, namely that such a screen would stop her "orienting" her powers.

She has said repeatedly that her powers work through clothing as long as she can orient the body - so let's cover people head-to-toe in a burqa, ninja-suit, hazmat suit or similar such that race is impossible to discern by normal means. She then uses her powers to do exactly what she claims she can do, which is tell black and white people apart by looking at their internal organs.

I can see no reason this does not accommodate any limitation she has thus far claimed.

[volatile]

Well, actually I do. I once knew a brother and sister, who had mixed parentage, Aboriginal and European. The man was as black as the Ace of Spades, and the woman was a blonde Nordic type - you would never guess that they were brother and sister, or that he had a white parent, or
she had a black one.

What does "black" and "white" really mean? What % of ancestral blood constitutes a hit/miss. And after a few generations, unless you have a full collection of blood tests from every direct ancestor, how can you really ever know?

Norm

Well, let's ask Anita, given that she has stated she can tell black and white people apart from their internal physiology. You're right that "black" and "white" are strange and arbitrary social categories, but Anita clearly doesn't think that. I don't know where she draws the line, but she clearly has one! The MDC is all about testing the things people say they can do, and she says she can black and white people apart.

[VisionFromFeeling]

I will be arriving in Los Angeles, California, on November 20th 2009 for my IIG Preliminary demonstration. I am interested in finding a Skeptic in that area who suffers from migraines and who would be willing to volunteer to receive an attempted migraine treatment from me and participate by sharing their evaluation of any changes in their migraine condition.

It needs to be a Skeptic so that your experience of any changes to your migraine condition are less likely to be influenced by your expectations, and so that your description of your migraine condition before and after receiving the attempted treatment is more credible as well as more valuable.

The background to why I am investigating this can be found at www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html and a description of how the attempted treatment takes place is also available there. This claim is not made by me. This claim is made by a man who received an attempted migraine treatment from me. He claims dramatic improvement that coincided with the time of receiving the attempted treatment.

The reason I am interested in attempting this again is to falsify the claim if there is no ability. I am interested in documenting falsified paranormal claims as that will set valuable examples into the woo community and make a contribution to skepticism, especially since it comes from an investigator who was personally involved in the claim. However if there is an ability to be discovered that can offer relief to migraine sufferers, I would have every incentive to establish that ability and would then acquire a proper license and make that treatment available to migraine sufferers, for their sake not mine.

If you experience no improvement that coincides with the time of receiving the attempted treatment, this claim is likely to be falsified. And if you do experience coinciding significant improvement, the only consequence is that this claim will warrant further investigation.

I will be available in Los Angeles from November 20th and until November 22nd, and an attempted treatment should take about 30 minutes. And so maybe I can falsify two paranormal claims in one weekend.

[GeeMack]

As posted in the thread, The VFF Test is On! (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5251746)...

I will be arriving in Los Angeles for my IIG Preliminary demonstration on November 20th 2009. If there is a Skeptic in that area who suffers from migraines I would be very interested in meeting with you to give you an attempted migraine treatment.

The reason I am investigating this is based on a past experience I had where I gave an attempted migraine treatment to someone and he claims dramatic improvement that coincided with the time of receiving the att. treatment. This experience as well as a description of what is involved in an att. treatment is available at www.visionfromfeeling.com/migraines.html.

This claim is not made by me. This claim is made by the man who received an attempted treatment from me. That is why I am interested in trying again but this time with a Skeptic. As a Skeptic, your experience of any changes to your migraine condition would be less likely to be influenced by your expectations, and your accounts would be more reliable as well as more valuable.

Preferably you would already have documentation of the frequency and severity of your migraines at least a few months back before receiving the att. treatment and you would continue to document your migraines at least a few months after receiving the att. treatment.

If the att. treatment does not coincide with improvement in your migraine condition this claim is very likely to be falsified. And if the att. treatment does coincide with significant improvement in your migraine condition, it does not verify the claim but only warrants further investigation into the claim.

This way, perhaps I could falsify two claims in one weekend!


Of course that would be attempting to perform a medical treatment without a license, a felony in California. Fact is, even your solicitation for it here is a violation of the law. Interstate commerce laws might add another layer of complication to the matter. A conviction would likely involve prison time.

This legislation applies anyone who is not otherwise licensed as a health care provider under California law and "who practices or attempts to practice, or who advertises or holds himself or herself out as practicing, any system or mode of treating the sick or afflicted in this state, or who diagnoses, treats, operates for, or prescribes for any ailment, blemish, deformity, disease, disfigurement, disorder, injury, or other physical or mental condition of any person..." [California's Business and Professions Code Section 2052].

Have you considered how that will look on your record when you get out of prison and get back to pursuing your career in the medical field?

[VisionFromFeeling]

Thank you GeeMack for warning me. I am of course not interested in practicing treatment, and only interested in investigating it. However, legally they may be difficult to distinguish, so I'd better stay away from that. I will find out what exactly is allowed first before doing anything further. Thank you. :)

[Akhenaten]

The reason I am investigating this migraine treatment claim is mainly because if there is an ability that could offer relief to migraine sufferers I would have every incentive to establish that ability and then to obtain a license and make this treatment available to migraine sufferers, for their benefit not mine. Another reason I investigate is also scientific curiosity.





Source (http://www.stopvisionfromfeeling.com/Discussion/tabid/294/aff/1/aft/133/afv/topic/afpgj/8/Default.aspx)


I thought scientific curiosity was the ONLY reason for any of this. It's the main reason for everyone elses' involvement.

[Farencue]

Wow, I see Anita Ikonen aka VisionfromFeeling has decided to study her new ability - curing migraines.
I also see Anita Ikonen is asking for assistance from JREF skeptics in designing the study.

I suffered from migraines many years ago on a regular basis, sometimes I would need a shot of pethidine at the local hospital.
Then, they suddenly disappeared - I have not had a migraine for over 10 years.
My doctor reckoned it was a hormone scramble that occurred, relieving me of the migraines.

I am very interested in what suggestions the scientific community here at JREF can come up with for Anita's new study. If she can cure migraines with her alleged "massage" technique I am sure she will win the Nobel Prize.

Migraines are no joke.

[Lisa Simpson]

I've had migraines cured by massage. Some of the migraines I get are from clenching my teeth. Nothing paranormal about it at all.

[Farencue]

Yes, I used to go for shiatsu myself, unless it was too late and I was having a full blown episode.

[desertgal]

I've had migraines cured by massage. Some of the migraines I get are from clenching my teeth. Nothing paranormal about it at all.

I imagine, though, that your massages were carried out by a trained and licensed massage therapist, and not an amateur?

[Fnord]

My migraines are triggered by allergies and stress. Relief is found only when I pass out due to lack of sleep, or after a marathon session of coital activity.

[GeeMack]

Wow, I see Anita Ikonen aka VisionfromFeeling has decided to study her new ability - curing migraines.
I also see Anita Ikonen is asking for assistance from JREF skeptics in designing the study.


There is a moderated thread which was set aside especially for discussion of this issue (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=151465). People have received warnings and yellow cards for discussing it outside of that thread. It might be a good idea to post all comments there.

Migraines are no joke.


Especially when the current plan is to play pseudo-scientific games with people who get migraines in order to feed a woo's juvenile desperate need for attention. :rolleyes:

[Lisa Simpson]

I imagine, though, that your massages were carried out by a trained and licensed massage therapist, and not an amateur?

Yes, although ultimately the greatest relief from migraines came from a dental device so that I can no longer clench my teeth. All I have left are hormonal migraines. Those are never cured through massage or hot packs or cold packs. Just massive doses of pain killers.

[Farencue]

There is a moderated thread which was set aside especially for discussion of this issue (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=151465). People have received warnings and yellow cards for discussing it outside of that thread. It might be a good idea to post all comments there.

Thanks Geemack, however Anita has brought up a NEW discussion on this subject in the moderated VFF General Discussion thread. Tres confusing!
Or has she returned to the old discussion? I could not be sure because the old discussion involved LightinDarkness and that headed nowhere and LiD is nowhere to be found/not mentioned in the new discussion in the general thread. As I said, tres confusing!

Healing migraines appears to be Anita's new MAIN claim and so I thought it only right that it took centre stage, set aside from the old perfiffle of kidney claims, shoe tests, interviews, breatharian mudslides etc...
I could be wrong.

[Senex]

Wow, I see Anita Ikonen aka VisionfromFeeling has decided to study her new ability - curing migraines.
I also see Anita Ikonen is asking for assistance from JREF skeptics in designing the study.


I never had a word for my problem before but I think it is a migraine.

I don't see how quality time with Anita has a downside.

[GeeMack]

I never had a word for my problem before but I think it is a migraine.

I don't see how quality time with Anita has a downside.


You've admitted that your desire comes down to simple lust for the woo.

[Lucian]

I never had a word for my problem before but I think it is a migraine.

I don't see how quality time with Anita has a downside.

If you really had migraines, I bet you could.