A Skeptical Stroke: Praying For a Skeptic

[RSLancastr]

Since the stroke, I have heard from many people that they are praying for me, or that they will pray for me.

As an agnostic, this can put me in an awkward situation as how best to reply. I know that many agnostics/atheists like to use the snarky reply of "I'll think for you", but I only use this in those cases whre the other person is obviously criticizing my (lack of) beliefs, as in "You don't believ in God? I'll pray for you!" After the stroke, the majority f the times I heard "I'll pray fr you", I took it as a genuine wish that I would recover my health, and I appreciated it.

When this was the case, the only appropriate response seemed to be a simple "thank you". It seemed to me to be no more offensive than a "Get Well" card. The only time I gt any negative feelings about the whole prayer thing was when a nurse told me that I should pray that I continued to improve. Not wanting to open up the whole "Is there a God?" can of worms, I simply said "Thanks, but I don't pray." She replied "Yes, but you believe in God, don't you?"

When I replied "No, I don't", she gasped and ran from the room. You'd think I had just told her that I eat live babies for breakfast.

How can I object to offers of prayer? my name had been added to "prayer lists" at some churches, including those of my wife and my mother. My brother and one of my sisters are religious, and I am pretty sure they prayed for me.

I love all of these people, and they love me. I refuse to be offended that they did something they blieved would help me.

I had intended to discuss this during my TAM7 speech, but it was one of the many thing which got dropped for time. In fact, I was, quite probably, the first person to ever wear prayer beads while giving a TAM speech!

My Beeg Seestor Janie had made a set of prayer beads when she heard of my stroke, and showed it to me at TAM. She said that she had prayed while making it, and had prayed with it every night since it was done. Backstage before my speech, she gave the beads to Susan. Wanting to honor Janie and what she had done for me, I took the beads from Susan and put them on as a necklace before going on stage. Janie had made it in my and Susan's favorite colors (purple and blue), and it went well with the ceramic "Question Everything" necklace I had purchased at the Skepchick table, which I also was wearing during my speech.

My primary Physical Therapist for much of the past year (the Neils whom Susan has often mentioned in her threads) is a Christian, and was well aware of my agnosticism (we frequently had discussions regarding religion). At one point, he told me that he often prayed for my recovery, and I think I may have disappointed him somewhat by not objecting to it.

So, to all of those who have prayed for my recovery during the past year:

Although I have my doubts as to whether your prayers contributed to my recovery, I have no doubt whatsever that you did so out of a genuine desire that I recover as quickly and as thoroughly as possible. For this I thank you from the bottom of my heart. I love you for what you have done. Please believe that.

[bokonon]

When I was in the hospital briefly a couple of years ago, I just mentally translated all the "We're praying for you" comments into "We're pulling for you," comments, which is what they were. I can't imagine being graceless enough to disparage a gift born of goodwill, no matter how "irrational." Like you, I'll save my snarky comments for public debates, not private expressions of love.

[rjh01]

I think it is their problem, not yours. As you say
At one point, he told me that he often prayed for my recovery, and I think I may have disappointed him somewhat by not objecting to it.

This shows what I mean. Do not own the problem. Give it to them to own.

[qayak]

As an agnostic, why would you not fully embrace their praying for your recovery? I can see the problem if you are an atheist.

[RSLancastr]

As an agnostic, why would you not fully embrace their praying for your recovery? I can see the problem if you are an atheist.

As the OP shows, I have no problem with it, but I know agnostics who might. Personally, I don't understand even an atheist's objection.

[qayak]

As the OP shows, I have no problem with it, but I know agnostics who might. Personally, I don't understand even an atheist's objection.

As an atheist my objection is quite simple. I don't wish to kowingly be connected with any religious mumbo jumbo.

Everyone who knows me knows that I am an atheist. They also know that if they bring up religion or their god I am going to argue against it. Tell me you are praying for me, no matter how good your intentions, and I am going to tell you not to bother.

[drzeus99]

My feelings on this are quite simple. As an atheist, my beliefs (or lack of) are mine, and that's what matters to me. Everyone else is free to believe what they want, and they should be. If someone says they'll pray for me, I reply "Thanks". If someone believes in voodoo and wants to pray to their voodoo god to help me, or even curse me, go right ahead. Whatever other people do, as long as it doesn't affect me (and prayer and curses are both ineffective), I think to myself "Knock yourself out. If it makes you feel better, more power to you". I don't condone this, nor do I condemn it. I found out that neither works and it's just a waste of my time. So, I have my way of life and live it to the best of my ability. I respect other's rights to believe what they believe, and to act on their belifs as they deem appropriate. Again, if that action doesn't personally affect me, then I don't care. And I'm always polite and courteos about it.
But that's just me.

[Skeptic]

The intention of a ceremonial act, such as prayer, is all-important, since the whole point of the ceremony is to make the intention explicit.

When someone says they will pray for you due to their concern for your health and do just that, they are doing good: they are expressing in a ceremony (prayer) their inner feelings (concern for you).

For this, it is of little importance if they are praying to Jesus or to Jehovah or to Allah or to Mumbo-Jumbo. There probably isn't a supernatural being out there hearing their prayers, but that is of little relevance to the morality of their action -- it only is relevant to their action's efficiency.

To tell such a person to "not bother" or that "I will think for you" is really simply telling them, "I don't care about your concern for me".

That is perfectly legitimate reply if the concern is merely hypocritical -- if it is feigned concern that just wants to get you to admit you are a sinner for not praying -- but it is rude, and worse, if the concern is real.

[qayak]

The intention of a ceremonial act, such as prayer, is all-important, since the whole point of the ceremony is to make the intention explicit.

When someone says they will pray for you due to their concern for your health and do just that, they are doing good: they are expressing in a ceremony (prayer) their inner feelings (concern for you).

For this, it is of little importance if they are praying to Jesus or to Jehovah or to Allah or to Mumbo-Jumbo. There probably isn't a supernatural being out there hearing their prayers, but that is of little relevance to the morality of their action -- it only is relevant to their action's efficiency.

To tell such a person to "not bother" or that "I will think for you" is really simply telling them, "I don't care about your concern for me".

That is perfectly legitimate reply if the concern is merely hypocritical -- if it is feigned concern that just wants to get you to admit you are a sinner for not praying -- but it is rude, and worse, if the concern is real.

Completely disagree. Following your line of reasoning if someone said, "I will sacrifice a child for your health" I am supposed to say "Thank you!" I mean, isn't that what child sacrifice is, a ceremonial act?

Praying for my health is obviously less destructive than sacrificing a child for my health but it in no way deserves anymore respect.

[Wolfman]

Geez.

If you're gonna' object to "I'm praying for you", you might as well object to "Get well soon", "I'm pulling for you", "I'm thinking of you", etc....since all of these are expressions of wishes that you will get better, yet do not have one iota of actual impact on your physical well-being. I have friends who are Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Mormon/Baha'i/etc. They care for me, and I care for them.

When they get sick, those who share beliefs with them will tell them they'll pray for them; when I don't tell them the same thing, they don't get upset, or consider me to be uncaring, or trying to force my beliefs on them. I simply tell them that I hope they'll get better, and that I'm happy to do what I can to help them. They understand that I am expressing concern and support.

When they offer to pray for me, they are doing the same...expressing concern and support. They don't use it as a preaching opportunity; they don't try to push their beliefs on me. They are concerned for me, and stating their desire that I get better.

Quite frankly, it takes an incredibly shallow/selfish/ignorant person to get upset over such a thing. Yeah, their prayers won't do crap for you. But you should express gratitude that you have people around you who care enough to express such concern and support. I remember awhile ago (was it last year?) a Christian member of the forums stated in a thread that they would pray for a member who was having problems (I forget the specifics)...and a whole bunch of atheists reacted quite aggressively towards him/her, insulting and condemning him/her for saying such a thing when they knew the person was an atheist. They managed (the atheists, not the Christian) to turn a supportive thread into a flame war. And when the intended recipient finally read it? That godless atheist had the nerve to actually thank him/her for their prayers. Didn't believe it would make any difference; but appreciated that the person cared enough to express concern, and wish for their recovery.

I work with a minority group in China who live in the Himalayas, and are Tibetan Buddhist. There is not one atheist among the entire group, so far as I've been able to tell...belief in gods, and the supernatural, is implicit to their world view. They constantly warn me about things that I shouldn't do (like whistle after the sun goes down), because of the negative effects it will have on me. When they wanted to give me a real Mosuo name, to represent accepting me as part of their community, they took me through quite an elaborate religious ritual to do so. I didn't believe any of it; and they are fully aware of that. However, I recognized the sincerity and good wishes that motivated it, and accepted it as such.

If you wanna' be a prick about it, and get upset just because someone actually cares enough about you to pray for you...go ahead. Just don't blame it on being an atheist; one doesn't have to be an atheist to be a closed-minded dogmatist.



There...that oughta' ruffle a few feathers :)

[linusrichard]

I'm an atheist and an agnostic, and anyone can pray for me if they want.

[Epok]

This is a good subject to pull up. There should be more discussions on the etiquette of being and atheist/agnostic. I can appreciate it when someone says they pray for me to get better but I get frustrated when they have the "I'll prey for you" attitude. When I was younger I had some difficulty grasping that concept.

[qayak]

Geez.

If you're gonna' object to "I'm praying for you", you might as well object to "Get well soon", "I'm pulling for you", "I'm thinking of you", etc....since all of these are expressions of wishes that you will get better, yet do not have one iota of actual impact on your physical well-being. I have friends who are Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Mormon/Baha'i/etc. They care for me, and I care for them.

When they get sick, those who share beliefs with them will tell them they'll pray for them; when I don't tell them the same thing, they don't get upset, or consider me to be uncaring, or trying to force my beliefs on them. I simply tell them that I hope they'll get better, and that I'm happy to do what I can to help them. They understand that I am expressing concern and support.

When they offer to pray for me, they are doing the same...expressing concern and support. They don't use it as a preaching opportunity; they don't try to push their beliefs on me. They are concerned for me, and stating their desire that I get better.

Quite frankly, it takes an incredibly shallow/selfish/ignorant person to get upset over such a thing. Yeah, their prayers won't do crap for you. But you should express gratitude that you have people around you who care enough to express such concern and support. I remember awhile ago (was it last year?) a Christian member of the forums stated in a thread that they would pray for a member who was having problems (I forget the specifics)...and a whole bunch of atheists reacted quite aggressively towards him/her, insulting and condemning him/her for saying such a thing when they knew the person was an atheist. They managed (the atheists, not the Christian) to turn a supportive thread into a flame war. And when the intended recipient finally read it? That godless atheist had the nerve to actually thank him/her for their prayers. Didn't believe it would make any difference; but appreciated that the person cared enough to express concern, and wish for their recovery.

I work with a minority group in China who live in the Himalayas, and are Tibetan Buddhist. There is not one atheist among the entire group, so far as I've been able to tell...belief in gods, and the supernatural, is implicit to their world view. They constantly warn me about things that I shouldn't do (like whistle after the sun goes down), because of the negative effects it will have on me. When they wanted to give me a real Mosuo name, to represent accepting me as part of their community, they took me through quite an elaborate religious ritual to do so. I didn't believe any of it; and they are fully aware of that. However, I recognized the sincerity and good wishes that motivated it, and accepted it as such.

If you wanna' be a prick about it, and get upset just because someone actually cares enough about you to pray for you...go ahead. Just don't blame it on being an atheist; one doesn't have to be an atheist to be a closed-minded dogmatist.



There...that oughta' ruffle a few feathers :)

I can see your point but why is it that the atheist is always the one who has to bend, twist, and suspend their belief for the comfort of those who believe in something that they themselves disagree with entirely.

For instance, I don't hear you talking about a single member of the group you worked with who would whistle after dark because you believed it was okay. Why didn't they suspend any of their beliefs for you as you must do for them? Oh, right, because theirs is a religious belief and deserves special consideration. :boggled:

The incident you point to on the forums is irrelevent. I don't care how anyone else addresses the issue. I gave my response as to how I would, and have, dealt with it. My saying "don't bother" to someone who has offered to pray for me has never caused an issue but it has lead to a couple of good discussions. These people always know that they are free to include me in any prayer they want but if they tell me about it my standard response is "don't bother."

[qayak]

If you wanna' be a prick about it, and get upset just because someone actually cares enough about you to pray for you...go ahead. Just don't blame it on being an atheist; one doesn't have to be an atheist to be a closed-minded dogmatist.

Really? In my experience the people who jump in to pray for you do so mainly because they don't want to expend anymore effort. It is the people in my life who have never prayed for me who actually help me out when I need it. When I was very sick it wasn't the family next door who "had me in their prayers" every night that drove my kids to school. It was the woman from across town who had to go way out of her way that did it and I know for a fact she never prayed for me . . . EVER.

Offering prayers for someone's health is the equivilent of offering to fart for their health. "I fart in your general direction!" :D

[Olowkow]

As an agnostic, why would you not fully embrace their praying for your recovery? I can see the problem if you are an atheist.

An agnostic claims no knowledge of the existence of gods, an atheist holds no belief in gods. I don't think one can claim to be an agnostic theist.
[eta: well, you can claim anything I guess "I don't know if there is a god or not, but I believe in him".]

You either believe in a god or you don't.
Now what I have found is that not all "I'll pray for you" claims are created equal. I knew a guy who used to say it to me every time I saw him, and it felt to me that he was being weird about it. Annoying frankly, like he was earning merit badges or something.

Wolfman: They constantly warn me about things that I shouldn't do (like whistle after the sun goes down), because of the negative effects it will have on me. When they wanted to give me a real Mosuo name, to represent accepting me as part of their community, they took me through quite an elaborate religious ritual to do so. I didn't believe any of it; and they are fully aware of that. However, I recognized the sincerity and good wishes that motivated it, and accepted it as such.I'm trying to figure out why this bothers me. Why not just take communion in the Catholic church so your buddies will think highly of you? How can you be sure that "they [each member of the community] are fully aware that [I didn't believe any of it]"? I'm not sure that was such a good idea if in fact the "elaborate religious ritual" was religious. IMHO, you are playing with fire as an anthropologist when you get into this sort of thing.

[Edward Lark]

I can see your point but why is it that the atheist is always the one who has to bend, twist, and suspend their belief for the comfort of those who believe in something that they themselves disagree with entirely.

I don't see how thanking someone for a sentiment - wishing you well, in this case - requires any sort of bending, twisting or suspension of your belief.

In a situation where: 1) the person offering is sincere in their offer as an expression of concern and/or well wishes; 2) the offer requires no active participation or endorsement of the practice on your part (and I do not believe that simply thanking someone for the sentiment is an endorsement); 3) the offered practice/action/sentiment causes no harm to others; and 4) the rejection of the offered practice/action/sentiment would be taken as offense to the offeror - then I see no downside to simply accepting the offer or sentiment in the spirit it was given and no upside to using such offer to engage in what will be perceived as a mean-spirited or petty response.

As an atheist, I want believers to act in ways that does not force their beliefs and/or practices on myself or on people who believe differently from themselves. But, at the same time, I fervently believe that there are certain norms of civility that one should follow as a member of any heterogenous society. Accepting expressions of goodwill in the spirit they are offered being one.

[Beth]

As an atheist my objection is quite simple. I don't wish to kowingly be connected with any religious mumbo jumbo. And someone praying for you connects you to it how?

Everyone who knows me knows that I am an atheist. They also know that if they bring up religion or their god I am going to argue against it. Tell me you are praying for me, no matter how good your intentions, and I am going to tell you not to bother.
I'm sure they appreciate your candor.

The intention of a ceremonial act, such as prayer, is all-important, since the whole point of the ceremony is to make the intention explicit.

When someone says they will pray for you due to their concern for your health and do just that, they are doing good: they are expressing in a ceremony (prayer) their inner feelings (concern for you).

For this, it is of little importance if they are praying to Jesus or to Jehovah or to Allah or to Mumbo-Jumbo. There probably isn't a supernatural being out there hearing their prayers, but that is of little relevance to the morality of their action -- it only is relevant to their action's efficiency.

To tell such a person to "not bother" or that "I will think for you" is really simply telling them, "I don't care about your concern for me".

That is perfectly legitimate reply if the concern is merely hypocritical -- if it is feigned concern that just wants to get you to admit you are a sinner for not praying -- but it is rude, and worse, if the concern is real.

I agree completely!

I can see your point but why is it that the atheist is always the one who has to bend, twist, and suspend their belief for the comfort of those who believe in something that they themselves disagree with entirely. Two things strike me about this:

a) It's the minority that must bend to the culture of the majority. Like it or not, that's how human society works.

b) How do atheists expect theists to bend for them? I don't see atheists asking for anything more than not to be hassled or discriminated against because of their beliefs. That seems perfectly appropriate to me, but not much bending or twisting required IMO.

[Pure Argent]

As an atheist, I don't care if people pray for me. But I prefer, and I make sure that they know this, that they don't. Instead, I prefer that they actually help me. Some little way, but help me. Many times, just showing up and talking for maybe thirty seconds is enough help. Maybe I just needed to talk to someone. When I'm sick, I don't like to just be left alone. I get lonely. Knowing that the person that could be talking to me is instead talking to the Big Sky Daddy just makes me feel worse.

[gentlehorse]

"I'll pray for you" doesn't bother me in the least in most situations. Usually I take it to mean "I care about you and hope things work out for the best." Of course, it doesn't always mean that.

A "born-again" buddy of mine bought a used car from a local car lot that always has bible scriptures on the marquee. The owner of the lot claims to be a "born-again", and was constantly referencing Jesus and talking salvation while selling my buddy the car. A few days after the sale the transmission went out. When my buddy contacted the owner of the lot, his response was "I'll pray for you."

In this case, I think "I'll pray for you" meant "You're on your own, Buscaglia", or "Bugger off, Batman." But, in general, I interpret it to be an expression of caring and appreciate the sentiment.

[Darat]

When I was in the hospital briefly a couple of years ago, I just mentally translated all the "We're praying for you" comments into "We're pulling for you," comments, which is what they were. I can't imagine being graceless enough to disparage a gift born of goodwill, no matter how "irrational." Like you, I'll save my snarky comments for public debates, not private expressions of love.

I agree with this, saying that I think the nurse in RSL's account above overstepped this line, as a professional, and personally I think she should have been disciplined for her actions.

[Pup]

Really? In my experience the people who jump in to pray for you do so mainly because they don't want to expend anymore effort.

This.

As an atheist, I don't care if people pray for me. But I prefer, and I make sure that they know this, that they don't. Instead, I prefer that they actually help me.

And this.

While I'm pretty much of the live-and-let-live school of thought, the one thing that I can't quite get around is the idea that when people hear about someone else's suffering and want to help, if they believe that praying actually helps, then the motivation to do anything else is lessened once they've prayed, since they believe they've done something.

The act of praying doesn't affect me, but the fact that they've decided to pray, instead of take some action that actually helps, does affect me.

[Professor Yaffle]

I've found that both when I was a christian and since then, people who have said they would pray for me (or a member of my family) have been only too willing to help out practically too where it was possible. We must move in different circles.

[Pure Argent]

I've found that both when I was a christian and since then, people who have said they would pray for me (or a member of my family) have been only too willing to help out practically too where it was possible. We must move in different circles.

Oh, most of them are willing to help if I ask. It's just that I would prefer that they offered help rather than prayer.

[Wolfman]

Really? In my experience the people who jump in to pray for you do so mainly because they don't want to expend anymore effort. It is the people in my life who have never prayed for me who actually help me out when I need it. When I was very sick it wasn't the family next door who "had me in their prayers" every night that drove my kids to school. It was the woman from across town who had to go way out of her way that did it and I know for a fact she never prayed for me . . . EVER."...do so mainly because they don't want to expend any more effort"??? Then when atheists say, "I hope you get better" or "I'm pulling for you", or other such stuff, you'll also get upset? Hell, by this criteria, you should be more offended, since at least the religious person believes their prayers are doing something; whereas the atheist knows that their 'good wishes' won't do squat.

I'm trying to figure out why this bothers me. Why not just take communion in the Catholic church so your buddies will think highly of you? How can you be sure that "they [each member of the community] are fully aware that [I didn't believe any of it]"? I'm not sure that was such a good idea if in fact the "elaborate religious ritual" was religious. IMHO, you are playing with fire as an anthropologist when you get into this sort of thing.Soooo many ways in which your example is not equal. First, I wouldn't go into a Catholic church, and would have no need to (whereas since I'm going to help the Mosuo, I kind of need to be there). Second, Catholics themselves state that if you're not a believer, you should not take Communion.

Perhaps I didn't make it clear enough in my comments above, but the Mosuo are 100% aware that I'm an atheist, and do not share their religious beliefs. (And by the way...I'm not an anthropologist. I'm a businessman who's gotten involved to try to help them out. Where anthropologists are needed, we hire them) Its a regular topic of discussion.

Working with the Mosuo in the capacity I do requires that I demonstrate respect for their culture. And their religion and culture are inextricably linked. For example, in the Mosuo culture, nobody is simply 'given' a name; there is a religious ceremony surrounding it to help determine what name is most appropriate. If I want to have a Mosuo name, I have to go through the ceremony; if I'm going to refuse to go through the ceremony because it somehow 'offends' my tender atheist sensibilities, then I have to reject getting a Mosuo name, and becoming a part of the community. Which makes all my efforts to work with and help them all the more difficult. The priest who performed the ceremony is one of my best friends there, an amazing guy.

It is my willingness to understand their beliefs -- without simply condemning them as a bunch of ignorant superstitious savages -- that makes them willing and interested to talk to me and understand my beliefs. And there are some practices within the culture that I am totally opposed to (they once sought to slit the throat of a man who'd stolen money from me based on local customs of retribution, for example), and I will state this quite openly. Because I've respected their culture and beliefs in other areas, they are far more willing to listen to and understand my viewpoints in these areas.

In my opinion, the biggest idiot on the planet can simply march about mindlessly saying, "That doesn't match my beliefs, so it is wrong, so I will tell everyone it is wrong". There are plenty of theists who do it. And, sadly, plenty of atheists who do it, too. It is mindless dogmatism, and accomplishes nothing except to create an illusory sensation of personal superiority in the person who is doing it.

It takes far more intelligence, and effort, and empathy to see things from someone else's perspective, and to respect that perspective. This doesn't mean accepting everything blindly. Accepting when someone says "I'm praying for you" is a far cry from accepting genital mutilation, for example. And that's why it takes intelligence.

[HawaiiBigSis]

Oh, most of them are willing to help if I ask. It's just that I would prefer that they offered help rather than prayer.
I've always found that the "I'll pray for you" offer has followed an offer of genuine help that has been rebuffed with "well, there's nothing you can do right now, but I'll let you know when there is."

Like Professor Yaffle, we must travel in different circles. I've never had anybody offer to pray for me or a loved one that didn't genuinely offer useful assistance.

[Wolfman]

And since I know at least some people are going to jump on this:It takes far more intelligence, and effort, and empathy to see things from someone else's perspective, and to respect that perspective.
I can just hear the chorus, "Why should I respect beliefs that I know are 100% wrong?" "Why should I respect beliefs that are based on ignorance?" An awful lot of people seem to have problems differentiating "respect" and "agreement". I'm very respectful of the beliefs of many of my religious friends...but they all know very well that I don't agree with them at all. In the majority of cases, those beliefs don't really have much impact -- positive or negative -- on anyone else. They're praying for me? Doesn't make a difference one way or the other. They're having communion? Doesn't make a difference one way or the other. They believe they'll go to Heaven when they die? Doesn't make a difference one way or the other.

However, when situations arise where it does make a difference, I will raise my voice. For example, if someone doesn't want to take their sick kid to the doctor, and just pray for them instead. I will then do my best to urge them that they can pray...but should take their kid to the doctor, also.

Now, here's the thing. Because I've demonstrated respect for their beliefs even when they know I don't agree with or share those beliefs, then at those times when I do raise objections, they are willing to listen...and often actually will take my advice. Whereas if I simply mindlessly condemned every belief that I didn't agree with, not only would they be unlikely to listen to me when a more serious situation arose, I'd be unlikely to even be close enough to them to make a suggestion in the first place.

I grew up as a devout Christian; and I met my share of atheists who took the "you're an ignorant superstitious idiot" approach. Any mention of my religious beliefs would instantly inspire invective informing me of how stupid/ignorant/wrong I was. Any effort to express concern by saying, "I'll pray for you" (which at the time I really did believe would make a difference, and was a sincere expression of concern) would be rebuked as useless, and even an effort to shove my beliefs down their throat.

And ya' know how much impact those atheists had on my own journey towards becoming an atheist? None. In fact, if they had any impact, it was negative. I'm not an atheist today because of them; I am an atheist today in spite of them.

However, there were some atheists who were happy to sit down with me and, instead of treating me as a brain-damaged idiot, treated me as an equal, and respected my beliefs. And I, in turn, extended the same respect towards their beliefs. The resulting discussions and debates were, in many ways, a big help on my own personal journey to atheism.

I'm a highly intelligent person. My accomplishments in life (not to mention various plaudits received in this forum) testify to that. I'm intelligent, rational, logical, etc. But here's the thing. I didn't just 'magically' turn into this intelligent, rational, logical person on the day that I decided I was an atheist. I had the same mind, the same reasoning processes, long before I was an atheist. But because my beliefs were theistic, many atheists simply pre-judged me as being unintelligent, irrational, and illogical -- by simple merit of the fact I was Christian.

What idiocy (and ample proof that many atheists can be every bit as irrational/stupid as any theist). One's conclusions are only as good as the evidence one has to support those conclusions. As a young person, the vast majority of 'evidence' in my life indicated that Christianity was true. Easily 95% of people I knew believed it was true. Even my science teachers reinforced that it was true. And I lacked the knowledge/tools to be able to examine it any further than that.

As I grew, and gained access to new knowledge and tools, I was able to better examine my own beliefs, and compare them with 'reality'...to subject them to experimentation and examination. And as I did so, I found bigger and bigger holes in my current beliefs; holes that eventually led me to reject those beliefs entirely, and adopt a radically different world view.

So if you are one of those atheists who gets off on artificially puffing up your own ego by dumping on people who are religious, declaring them inferior to you by merit of the fact that they are stupid/illogical/irrational simply because they have religious beliefs -- feel free. But if you'd like to actually make a difference, and engage in useful, productive diaologue that can help others to see the errors in their beliefs, then I'd strongly suggest that you learn a little bit about 'respect'.

[Professor Yaffle]

Well said Wolfman (and nominated).

[Kopji]

Really nice to see RSL back.

Kindness is a gift best given or received without analyzing it too much. :)

I'm ok with some prayers, not others. A prayer should be as a mediation or comfort rather than foster a false feeling of divine authority, control, or purpose.

The prayer beads can offer a problem when guided by fuzzy virtues like kindness. I would be less tolerant about expectations over wearing the prayer beads, at least about an expectation to take them seriously. If I helped a drowning person I would not place a case of of atheist chick-type-tracts on their doorstep and whistle innocently. That's not really kindness.

I would have asked for a different nurse and let someone on the staff know why.

[Olowkow]

Well, surprising that any Christians met with the "you're an ignorant superstitious idiot" approach on a regular basis in the 70's, but I guess anything is possible.
I certainly would never think of confronting even Ray Comfort or Ken Ham with that. Perhaps Kent Hovind, but....
I am genuinely happy for Wolfman that he feels so good about himself and his ability to interact with different cultures. We need more like him out there spreading the good will of atheists.:)

[shandyjan]

I don't think the 'I'll pray for you' would bother me in itself. I wouldnt want a health professional saying it, or asking me if i wanted them to pray for me.
I would be antsy if any of my recovery was adjudged to be from the prayers or from God though!

[Wolfman]

I would be antsy if any of my recovery was adjudged to be from the prayers or from God though!
A good example for my argument; during the past year, I've faced an awful lot of challenges after being rather unceremoniously booted out of China. My parents, and several friends, have regularly assured me during the past year that they were praying for me; and I took no issue with that.

However, when the news finally came through that I was finally going to be allowed to return to China, some of them tried to credit their prayers with that result; and at that point, I took exception. This is the result of a lot of very hard work and persistence, not only on my part, but on the part of many friends in China who've been working behind the scenes with the gov't to get this done. Many of them took personal risks in doing so. And it was rather insulting to have it credited instead to some non-existent entity. I have stated this quite clearly and unequivocally to my parents and friends, and they know that any effort to attribute it to god and 'answered prayer' will meet with some anger on my side.

Some may find this a rather confusing reaction, given my previous posts; but for me, it crosses an important line. "I'll pray for you" can be accepted without much commentary, and can be taken pretty much simply as "I'm concerned for you" and/or "I hope you get better". But "This happened because of God" is a very different thing...it is a specific claim that goes far beyond good wishes. In my example above with working with the Mosuo, I'd have a similar reaction -- they can pray for sick people all they want, but I always emphasize the need for proper medical care, also. And when someone gets better (or worse), I won't ignore or sit by silently while it is attributed to the work of some god or spirit; I will clearly state my own beliefs and opinions as to the cause. And because I've treated them respectfully in the past (and because, in explaining my own beliefs, I don't treat them as idiots), they are willing to listen. Some are even starting to change their own minds.

[rjh01]

You have expressed very good opinions Wolfman.

[Epok]

An agnostic claims no knowledge of the existence of gods, an atheist holds no belief in gods. I don't think one can claim to be an agnostic theist.
[eta: well, you can claim anything I guess "I don't know if there is a god or not, but I believe in him".]

You either believe in a god or you don't.
Now what I have found is that not all "I'll pray for you" claims are created equal. I knew a guy who used to say it to me every time I saw him, and it felt to me that he was being weird about it. Annoying frankly, like he was earning merit badges or something.

You can be an atheist in your personal beliefs but when it comes to science you also have to take an agnostic stance. Thats how someone can be both an atheist and agnostic.

[qayak]

Two things strike me about this:

a) It's the minority that must bend to the culture of the majority. Like it or not, that's how human society works.

Not in mine. I don't have to bow to anyone's religious crap. You might be pining away for a return to the Dark Ages and the glory days of religions with governments like that of Iran but not me. I prefer to look forward to a time when religion is just a bad memory.

b) How do atheists expect theists to bend for them? I don't see atheists asking for anything more than not to be hassled or discriminated against because of their beliefs. That seems perfectly appropriate to me, but not much bending or twisting required IMO.

That's what I said. If you are a theist, don't hassle me with your stupid beliefs because I don't buy any of it. So, I'll whistle after dark if I want, I'll skip church on Sunday, thank you very much, and please don't kill a child or a goat to ensure my good health. That's how I expect theists to bend to me, by leaving their religious crap at home.

[qayak]

However, when the news finally came through that I was finally going to be allowed to return to China, some of them tried to credit their prayers with that result; and at that point, I took exception.

:D Trying to have your cake and eat it too. It was obviously their prayers that put you over the top. Without those prayers all your hard work would have been without success.

[Wolfman]

That's what I said. If you are a theist, don't hassle me with your stupid beliefs because I don't buy any of it. So, I'll whistle after dark if I want, I'll skip church on Sunday, thank you very much, and please don't kill a child or a goat to ensure my good health. That's how I expect theists to bend to me, by leaving their religious crap at home.
Funny...here's the theist corollary to that:

If you are an atheist, don't hassle me with your stupid beliefs because I don't buy any of it. So, I'll pray for you if I want, I'll skip reading Richard Dawkins, thank you very much, and please don't commit sodomy on babies to ensure your good health*. That's how I expect atheists to bend to me, by leaving their irreligious crap at home.



* Rather extreme and irrelevant example...but then, so is the idea of killing children to ensure qayak's good health. Unless qayak has actually had Christians offering to do this?

[Wolfman]

:D Trying to have your cake and eat it too. It was obviously their prayers that put you over the top. Without those prayers all your hard work would have been without success.
Certainly, that's what they believed. I then pointed out to them that, if I had not gotten back, they would have said instead that it was God trying to teach me my need to depend on Him. So no matter what happens, it is 'because of God'. Then I asked them, if we theoretically removed god from the equation, and left it up to pure, random chance...were both outcomes still possible? They had to answer yes. I asked them how then I could differentiate between a result that happened at random, and an event that was caused by God.

They had to admit that they had no answer to that...it was simply a matter of faith.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Well said, Robert. When prayer is heartfelt and conveys good wishes and sympathy, it's fine and even welcome. When it is meant in a good way that's nevertheless condescending or insulting to yourself, it deserves to be told pretty much "No thanks" or "Keep it to yourself, please". When it's genuine concern, however, it's good as a gesture of love. If nothing else and perhaps something else.

You are very lucky to have so many people care so deeply for you. And if I were still a praying person, that's what I would be doing for you. :)

I did get a big glow from praying for friends and relatives when I was a Catholic. It felt like giving up my own time with God for someone else, to ask for all the best for them. It felt like just about the most selfless thing you could do.

Quick question- how did it happen that your mother is a Christian and so are your brother and sister but you and your other sister aren't? Were you raised Christian and became an agnostic later?

[arthwollipot]

Kindness is a gift best given or received without analyzing it too much. :)I'm with Kopji on this one. Say thanks, accept it in the spirit in which it is given, and move on.

[qayak]

Certainly, that's what they believed. I then pointed out to them that, if I had not gotten back, they would have said instead that it was God trying to teach me my need to depend on Him. So no matter what happens, it is 'because of God'. Then I asked them, if we theoretically removed god from the equation, and left it up to pure, random chance...were both outcomes still possible? They had to answer yes. I asked them how then I could differentiate between a result that happened at random, and an event that was caused by God.

They had to admit that they had no answer to that...it was simply a matter of faith.

Much easier to just say "Don't bother" when they offered to pray in the first place. :p

[arthwollipot]

Much easier to just say "Don't bother" when they offered to pray in the first place. :pYou're missing the point. Them praying for you isn't about making you feel better, it's about making them feel better. That's why my own response would be along the lines of "if that's what you feel you need to do, then feel free." I don't think that there's much point in being confrontational about it.

[Beth]

I'm afraid you completely lost me. You asked why is it that the atheist is always the one who has to bend, twist, and suspend their belief for the comfort of those who believe in something that they themselves disagree with entirely I responded that it's because the minority must bend to the culture of the majority. Like it or not, that's how human society works. To which you respond:

Not in mine. I don't have to bow to anyone's religious crap. You might be pining away for a return to the Dark Ages and the glory days of religions with governments like that of Iran but not me. I prefer to look forward to a time when religion is just a bad memory. If you don't feel you have to bow to anyone's religious crap, why are asking why the atheist must be the one to do so? What exactly is it you complaining about in your first statement if the second is true?

That's what I said. If you are a theist, don't hassle me with your stupid beliefs because I don't buy any of it. So, I'll whistle after dark if I want, I'll skip church on Sunday, thank you very much, and please don't kill a child or a goat to ensure my good health. That's how I expect theists to bend to me, by leaving their religious crap at home.

I'll echo what Wolfman said in response to this. I sincerely doubt that anyone is actually keeping you from whistling after dark, forcing you to go to church on Sunday, or sacrificing living creatures to ensure your good health. So what is it that you are complaining about again?

[Beerina]

As the OP shows, I have no problem with it, but I know agnostics who might. Personally, I don't understand even an atheist's objection.

As an atheist who's been in the hospital, I've had people tell me they're praying for me. It doesn't bother me at all.

More curious was your case where the nurse ran from the room. I wonder if she felt she might get in big trouble for talking about religion to you and, rotten luck, stumbled across a (de facto) atheist.

If there's a downside to atheism, it's in making regular people be afraid of simple things like that when they really just have good intentions.

Wasn't that what grade school was for, among other things? To learn to deal with the real world? Not her (or you), but the proverbial atheist who goes apoplectic over something like that.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

It's funny how a nurse simply praying for someone is not really a matter of controversy in the United States, even if the patient didn't want it and didn't ask for it, but it's a cause for suspension elsewhere-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5675452.ece

Robert's nurse would probably have been fired several times over if she worked in Britain.

[MarkCorrigan]

It's funny how a nurse simply praying for someone is not really a matter of controversy in the United States, even if the patient didn't want it and didn't ask for it, but it's a cause for suspension elsewhere-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5675452.ece

Robert's nurse would probably have been fired several times over if she worked in Britain.

As has, I believe been pointed out in the past, she was NOT fired for simply praying, but for pushing her religious opinions on a patient who expressly told her to stop doing so.

[Lucky]

It's funny how a nurse simply praying for someone is not really a matter of controversy in the United States, even if the patient didn't want it and didn't ask for it, but it's a cause for suspension elsewhere-

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5675452.ece

Robert's nurse would probably have been fired several times over if she worked in Britain.
As has, I believe been pointed out in the past, she was NOT fired for simply praying, but for pushing her religious opinions on a patient who expressly told her to stop doing so.
You have your facts wrong. As EeneyMinnieMoe's link makes clear, the nurse wasn't sacked. She was suspended by the trust while they investigated the case, after which she was allowed to return to work.

There was never any suggestion that she did anything other than offer to say a prayer for the patient, and then respect the patient's wishes when the offer was declined. imo the trust's action was completely over the top - they seemed unable to tell the difference between offering to say a prayer and proselytising (which would rightly be regarded as a serious disciplinary offence). Anyway, they evidently thought better of it (after quite a lot of public criticism).

Thread here. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4396783#post4396783)

[qayak]

You're missing the point. Them praying for you isn't about making you feel better, it's about making them feel better. That's why my own response would be along the lines of "if that's what you feel you need to do, then feel free." I don't think that there's much point in being confrontational about it.

I didn't miss the point at all. I don't see telling someone not to bother when they offer to pray for you as being confrontational . . . but that's just me. Maybe you are much more sensitive to that type of thing.

[Wolfman]

I didn't miss the point at all. I don't see telling someone not to bother when they offer to pray for you as being confrontational . . . but that's just me. Maybe you are much more sensitive to that type of thing.
Well...when someone says "I'll pray for you", they are not asking you to do anything at all. They're not asking you to participate in the prayer. They're not asking you to believe it will work. You can do absolutely nothing, and completely disbelieve their prayer will have any affect.

When you tell someone not to bother praying for you, you are attempting to dictate their actions, to tell them what they can or cannot do.

*NOTE* -- Someone who says "I'll pray for you", and does so later in the privacy of their own home/church...I've got no problem. Someone who wants to actively pray for me right there -- ie. I've got to stay still and quiet while they mumble things to a non-existent entity -- is an entirely different thing. I would politely inform them that they can pray for me if they wish, but please don't do it right now.

[qayak]

If you don't feel you have to bow to anyone's religious crap, why are asking why the atheist must be the one to do so? What exactly is it you complaining about in your first statement if the second is true?

:confused: I think you need to re-read and rethink this. I do not have to bow to people's religious crap, not where I live, which is why I am free to ignore their superstitions and to tell them not to bother when they offer to pray for me.

I was asking Wolfman why he has to bow to the superstitions of the people he knows in China and why I am expected by people on this list to bow down and allow theists to pray for me? In other words, why are we expected to bow down when under the same circumstance no theist ever would?

I'll echo what Wolfman said in response to this. I sincerely doubt that anyone is actually keeping you from whistling after dark, forcing you to go to church on Sunday, or sacrificing living creatures to ensure your good health. So what is it that you are complaining about again?

That is exactly right, they are not so why the hell would I want to do that stuff?

[qayak]

Well...when someone says "I'll pray for you", they are not asking you to do anything at all. They're not asking you to participate in the prayer. They're not asking you to believe it will work. You can do absolutely nothing, and completely disbelieve their prayer will have any affect.

When you tell someone not to bother praying for you, you are attempting to dictate their actions, to tell them what they can or cannot do.

You have already stated the trouble with allowing this. It spreads the false belief that their prayers are the cause when you eventually do get better. I prefer to nip it in the bud and to not participate in their madness. I do this at every opportunity.

*NOTE* -- Someone who says "I'll pray for you", and does so later in the privacy of their own home/church...I've got no problem. Someone who wants to actively pray for me right there -- ie. I've got to stay still and quiet while they mumble things to a non-existent entity -- is an entirely different thing. I would politely inform them that they can pray for me if they wish, but please don't do it right now.

I just take it one step further by requesting that they don't bother praying for me ever. I don't see where your dictating their actions are any different than my dictating their actions. In fact, I never dictate their actions, they are free to pray for me if they wish but when they ask, I simply say "no."

[Beth]

:confused: I think you need to re-read and rethink this. I do not have to bow to people's religious crap, not where I live, which is why I am free to ignore their superstitions and to tell them not to bother when they offer to pray for me.

I was asking Wolfman why he has to bow to the superstitions of the people he knows in China and why I am expected by people on this list to bow down and allow theists to pray for me? In other words, why are we expected to bow down when under the same circumstance no theist ever would? I don't understand what it is you are complaining about. What do you mean by 'bow down'? Who is expecting you to bow down to theists and under what circumstances? If you are meaning 'letting people pray for you', well letting other people do something that doesn't affect you isn't exactly 'bowing down' to them IMO. Or are you meaning something else?

That is exactly right, they are not so why the hell would I want to do that stuff?
I'm even more confused by this response. You don't want to do some things, like go to church, and no one is forcing you to. You don't want other people to prevent you from doing things, like whistling in the dark, due to what you consider foolish superstitions and no one is trying to prevent you from doing so. What is the problem with either of those situations?

[qayak]

I don't understand what it is you are complaining about.

Yes, it is very clear you do not understand. The question is why don't you understand, a lack of reading ability or some other deficiency.

Second, I wasn't complaining. I was asked a question and I answered it. I was then asked some clarifying questiosn and answered them.

From there, I don't think there is anything that can be added to this that hasn't already been said.

I'm even more confused by this response. You don't want to do some things, like go to church, and no one is forcing you to. You don't want other people to prevent you from doing things, like whistling in the dark, due to what you consider foolish superstitions and no one is trying to prevent you from doing so. What is the problem with either of those situations?

LOL! You are one step behind. It was Wolfman that said it would be wrong for him to whistle after dark because it would offend some people in China's beliefs.

I asked why he was required to bow down to their beliefs. My point was, if you want to whistle after dark, whistle after dark.

All the rest of the things you are confused about can be explained in the same way. For instance, just because some people think it would be rude of me to tell someone not to bother praying for me:

A- doesn't mean it is rude.

B- doesn't mean I shouldn't tell them just that.

C- doesn't mean I should suspend my beliefs to not insult their superstitions.


You are behind in the conversation and apparently unable to catch up. ;)

[arthwollipot]

I didn't miss the point at all. I don't see telling someone not to bother when they offer to pray for you as being confrontational . . . but that's just me. Maybe you are much more sensitive to that type of thing.The problem is that you are dismissing and belittling something that they take quite seriously. This would be equivalent to me snubbing your wife. It is somewhat rude to actually make an effort to dismiss the efforts of someone else. You could stay silent. Instead you deliberately make them aware that you consider their contribution to be valueless.

That said, I am more than a little in sympathy with you though. Whenever I sneeze and someone says "bless you", I respond "no thanks". :D

[qayak]

That said, I am more than a little in sympathy with you though. Whenever I sneeze and someone says "bless you", I respond "no thanks". :D

:D

[Pup]

The problem is that you are dismissing and belittling something that they take quite seriously. This would be equivalent to me snubbing your wife. It is somewhat rude to actually make an effort to dismiss the efforts of someone else. You could stay silent. Instead you deliberately make them aware that you consider their contribution to be valueless.

Problem is, it goes both ways. In other social situations, it's rude to act as if you have super powers that can control others. A Star Wars geek who kept trying to do a Jedi mind trick on you, and then took credit for whatever you did, saying, "See, I made you order strawberry ice cream instead of chocolate," would soon get slapped upside the head.

Yes, he can just be ignored. Deep down inside, you know that you ordered strawberry because you wanted it and not because he made you. But claiming that he's helping to control your life is still rude and annoying, unless it's a game you both want to play.

I've got no problem telling truly annoying pray-ers what I think, but I wish there was a simple moderate-level response for nicer pray-ers that would get across the general tone of: "I find it rude of you to claim that you can control my life, when there's no evidence that you can, so if you care about my feelings, please stop it" in a way they'd get, without bringing out the big guns.

"Please don't bother," is a good attempt, but just doesn't seem quite the best. I actually like your example of "no thanks," even in a more serious situation.

[arthwollipot]

I've got no problem telling truly annoying pray-ers what I think, but I wish there was a simple moderate-level response for nicer pray-ers that would get across the general tone of: "I find it rude of you to claim that you can control my life, when there's no evidence that you can, so if you care about my feelings, please stop it" in a way they'd get, without bringing out the big guns.I understand. Thanks.

[Think_Tank]

I think some people will offer prayer because they want to help and there's nothing else they can offer. Injury and illness are often complicated beasties, and the average layperson often hasn't a hope of understanding what's wrong, let alone being able to do anything constructive.

If I was ill, and someone told me they'd pray for me, I'd probably say "Thanks" and leave it at that.

That said, if they offered me the business card of the local homeopath or chiropractor, they'd need to have it surgically removed :D

[thaiboxerken]

As the OP shows, I have no problem with it, but I know agnostics who might. Personally, I don't understand even an atheist's objection.

What if a Wiccan came in and started to cast a spell of recovery on you?

[GreedyAlgorithm]

Alice is not helped when Bob prays for her.
Bob may be helped when he prays for Alice.
Alice is helped when Bob signals his social bond with her.
Bob is helped when he signals his social bond with Alice.
Alice may or may not be helped by the specific implementation of the signal Bob sends, probably dependent on whether it invokes good or bad feelings apart from the social bond bit.

Now it's game theory. Does Alice object when Bob says he will pray? She gains no benefit from his actual prayer, if it will even exist. They both gain from the strengthening of the social bond through signaling. Alice loses something due to the riders attached to the signal, namely, that it sounds like she's accepting the offer of prayer specifically when she just wants to accept the signal of mutual bond. Bob presumably gains in a similar manner. His other option is to offer a different signal of social bond which does not have the worldview-rider.

If this was a one-shot dilemma, Alice accepting the signal (not saying "whatever, I'm an atheist, Bob, you know that") dominates rejecting it. No matter what, she gains more by tolerance. But it's not a one-shot. Alice's best possible situation is when she manages to convince everyone else in the world that she will reject the prayer offers and accept vanilla well-wishes, because by taking this first-mover advantage, she makes everyone else's best move to be offering well-wishes rather than prayer, since they don't want to be rejected*. But if she tries such a tactic and someone offers prayer anyway, she may have to reject the prayer most of the time even though it seems like accepting is better, since otherwise her first-move declaration (and declarations in general) loses credibility.

This is simplified, of course. There are other factors like Alice's feeling of self-righteousness or embarrassment upon rejecting, others' reactions, maybe it's better for Alice overall to accept all offers even though it "just encourages them", etc. But I think the general structure is correct.

I'm a fan of qayak's plan. By sacrificing our own temporary gains, by rejecting offers of prayer even though in each individual situation it may be better to accept them, we are trying to make the world a better place by reducing the number of times the prayer rather than general well-wishing situation comes up. You're welcome. :D

*This only applies to people who genuinely care, of course, if Bob knows he's talking to an atheist he might want his offer to be rejected so he can feel self-righteous. Maybe Alice doesn't care about such people, though...

[RSLancastr]

Quick question- how did it happen that your mother is a Christian and so are your brother and sister but you and your other sister aren't? Were you raised Christian and became an agnostic later?Well, my Mom was raised Christian, but chose not to force it on us kids. We all sort of found our own way(s). I don't think my bro is a Christian any more, though he was heavily into it for a while, going on prselytizing trips to Russia, for instance. My sister, while religious/spiritual, is not Christian. she is more of a NewAger. My other sister may be religious, but not overtly so.

I guess the bottom line is: we were raised mostly by our mother, who saw fit t let us each make our own path.

[RSLancastr]

I spoke with my Mom and a sister about this thread yesterday.My Mom corrected me in that she was not raised as a Christian, but instead "accepted Jesus" in a revival meeting at the age of seventeen. The sister who I described above as "not overtly religious" described herself as "vaguely Christian."

[Gilmar]

What if a Wiccan came in and started to cast a spell of recovery on you?

My reaction would depend on whether I make my saving throw.

[Pure Argent]

My reaction would depend on whether I make my saving throw.

Wait, you're going to make a saving throw against a benevolent effect? That doesn't... wait. You're undead, aren't you?

[Olowkow]

.... The sister who I described above as "not overtly religious" described herself as "vaguely Christian."

Robert, it's so good to see you back on the forum. I have been pr....err, hoping for your return. :)
I'm not sure why, but I found the expression "vaguely Christian" very funny. Can one be vaguely atheist? My family never pushed religion on me either, even though my dad was a minister. I was lucky to marry a vaguely Buddhist lady.

[RSLancastr]

Robert, it's so good to see you back on the forum. I have been pr....err, hoping for your return. :)
I'm not sure why, but I found the expression "vaguely Christian" very funny. Can one be vaguely atheist? My family never pushed religion on me either, even though my dad was a minister. I was lucky to marry a vaguely Buddhist lady.I would say that I was raised "vaguely Christian." We exchanged gifts on Christmas, and searched for eggs on Easter. Beyond that, nothing.

[arthwollipot]

Robert, it's so good to see you back on the forum. I have been pr....err, hoping for your return. :)
I'm not sure why, but I found the expression "vaguely Christian" very funny. Can one be vaguely atheist? My family never pushed religion on me either, even though my dad was a minister. I was lucky to marry a vaguely Buddhist lady.In my experience, a majority of Australians (of European descent, at least) are "vaguely Christian". If pressed they will admit to some kind of belief in a God of some sort, but they don't go to church, don't pray every night or say grace before meals and really don't get excited about it one way or another.

[rjh01]

I would say that I was raised "vaguely Christian." We exchanged gifts on Christmas, and searched for eggs on Easter. Beyond that, nothing.

Neither of which have anything to do with being Christian. Both of these have been done for > 2009 years.

[slingblade]

I probably wouldn't say anything to someone who offered to pray for me, but inwardly I'd be cringing and angry.

I'm stupid, see, and very naive and gullible. I'm not afraid to admit this, though I am pretty ashamed. And I believed it every single time "they" told me that if I'd just pray, if I just had a little faith, mustard-seed sized faith, that my prayers would be granted and I'd see the results of god working in my life.

All I ever saw were bad things. Hurtful things that no one stopped, and that some even tried to tell me I deserved!

When I finally woke up from my delusions, I was angry at them and at myself. They lied. I listened.

So no. I wouldn't be at all happy if someone offered to pray for me. but I am basically a nice lady, albeit with a bit of a chip on my shoulder, so I probably wouldn't do more than mutter a quick "thanks," and leave in a hurry.

[RSLancastr]

Neither of which have anything to do with being Christian.

Only vaguely.

[arthwollipot]

:D

[Brown]

If you're gonna' object to "I'm praying for you", you might as well object to "Get well soon", "I'm pulling for you", "I'm thinking of you", etc....since all of these are expressions of wishes that you will get better, yet do not have one iota of actual impact on your physical well-being. I have friends who are Christian/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/Mormon/Baha'i/etc. They care for me, and I care for them.

When they get sick, those who share beliefs with them will tell them they'll pray for them; when I don't tell them the same thing, they don't get upset, or consider me to be uncaring, or trying to force my beliefs on them. I simply tell them that I hope they'll get better, and that I'm happy to do what I can to help them. They understand that I am expressing concern and support.

When they offer to pray for me, they are doing the same...expressing concern and support. They don't use it as a preaching opportunity; they don't try to push their beliefs on me. They are concerned for me, and stating their desire that I get better.This is what I was going to say. Whew! Now I don't have to.

In a different context, I recently received a number of religious messages. About two months ago, I got married to a wonderful lady. We decided to have a non-religious wedding.

We had to write our own ceremony, pretty much. It turned out quite nicely. There were no references to any deity. There were no prayers. We made our promises to each other, not to any Higher Power. We solemnized the occasion with a degree of eloquence rather than by an invocation of the Supernatural. We concluded with a poem about love and flowers, rather than a Benediction.

But religion was not excluded from the day. Many members of our familes, and many of our friends, are religious (but most don't carry their religion on their sleeves). Our officiant was a Christian minister (but he was perfectly happy to perform a secular service and in fact he was quite delighted with what we had prepared). One of the readings in the service was authored by a Christian minister (although he was not identified as such). Our Master of Ceremonies at the get-together was a Christian minister (but wearing a tie rather than a clerical collar).

My wife and I were married outdoors in the Royal Botanical Gardens in Ontario. A beautiful setting. Afterward, we held the reception in the same venue. Part of the reception was an "open microphone," in which guests would be allowed to express their sentiments and their wishes. My brother, who was best man, spoke first, and then I gave a brief welcome to those who were present, with an acknowledgement to those who could not attend.

I expected that perhaps three or four people would speak when the open microphone was offered. But actually, about a dozen people spoke.

There were some mentions of the Almighty and His blessings and prayers on our behalf, both at the open microphone and expressed privately to my wife and me. In each case, we responded with a warm and genuinely sincere smile and a heartfelt "Thank you." These were expressions of good wishes, and whether we agreed with the speaker's theology or not, we understood that they invoked the Almighty to show the depth of their feelings.

[RSLancastr]

This is what I was going to say. Whew! Now I don't have to.

In a different context, I recently received a number of religious messages. About two months ago, I got married to a wonderful lady. We decided to have a non-religious wedding.

We had to write our own ceremony, pretty much. It turned out quite nicely. There were no references to any deity. There were no prayers. We made our promises to each other, not to any Higher Power. We solemnized the occasion with a degree of eloquence rather than by an invocation of the Supernatural. We concluded with a poem about love and flowers, rather than a Benediction.

But religion was not excluded from the day. Many members of our familes, and many of our friends, are religious (but most don't carry their religion on their sleeves). Our officiant was a Christian minister (but he was perfectly happy to perform a secular service and in fact he was quite delighted with what we had prepared). One of the readings in the service was authored by a Christian minister (although he was not identified as such). Our Master of Ceremonies at the get-together was a Christian minister (but wearing a tie rather than a clerical collar).

My wife and I were married outdoors in the Royal Botanical Gardens in Ontario. A beautiful setting. Afterward, we held the reception in the same venue. Part of the reception was an "open microphone," in which guests would be allowed to express their sentiments and their wishes. My brother, who was best man, spoke first, and then I gave a brief welcome to those who were present, with an acknowledgement to those who could not attend.

I expected that perhaps three or four people would speak when the open microphone was offered. But actually, about a dozen people spoke.

There were some mentions of the Almighty and His blessings and prayers on our behalf, both at the open microphone and expressed privately to my wife and me. In each case, we responded with a warm and genuinely sincere smile and a heartfelt "Thank you." These were expressions of good wishes, and whether we agreed with the speaker's theology or not, we understood that they invoked the Almighty to show the depth of their feelings.

Sounds like a lovely day. Brown!

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'll try to explain why I find someone praying for you against your wishes so obnoxious (this goes for someone praying for an atheist/agnostic, a Christian praying for a Christian of another denomination, a Muslim, Jew, Sikh, Buddhist, etc. or a Christian praying for a Christian who doesn't want it and didn't ask for it.)

Some weeks ago, I was at school and I had a long break between classes. My friend, whom I'll call "Annie" lives about 12 blocks away from the school and she had wanted to meet with me for a long time so I called her and we arranged to meet at a Starbucks roughly in between her home and my school.

Now, Annie has many good points and is a pretty nice person. However, she can also be domineering, stubborn, a huge control freak at times, obnoxious, nosy, sanctimonious, condescending and can show a pretty big ego. She also doesn't seem to understand the meaning of the word "no" and can argue and fight with you until she turns blue in the face.

She is a law student and wants to be a judge so I think that has something to do with it. She is also from another country so there might be cultural differences at work.

It was raining that day and she took an umbrella and I didn't. When I got to the Starbucks, she gave me a lecture about not having an umbrella. I shrugged it off and told her it wasn't really raining anymore, just drizzling and that my coat had a hood so it was fine. She fumed at me for a while and told me she'd walk me back to school. I said no, thanked her but told her not to bother, told her I wouldn't make her do it and to not worry about me.

We had coffee, talked for a while, everything we usually do when we see each other. When my next class was about to start, I took my things, threw out my empty cup, went to the bathroom and came back to say goodbye to her.

She insisted on walking me to school. I said no and told her to go home. I said I wouldn't make her walk 7 or 8 blocks out of her way and then double back to go home. I repeated that it was just drizzling, I didn't mind walking back without an umbrella in the slightest and that I had a hood. I told her no several times, told her I really didn't mind, didn't want to bother and inconvenience her and told her to go back home and not mind me.

She brushed it off and ignored me and walked all the way to my school with me. I was in a hurry to make it in time for class and so didn't argue with her. It really was just drizzling and the umbrella didn't much help. When we were there, I reluctantly thanked her but told her she didn't have to and I was sorry for making her walk all the way to my school and she sanctimoniously told me she simply couldn't have let me go off without an umbrella in the rain and babbled on some more about me not having an umbrella in this weather.

I didn't say so to her, of course, but I think that if this happens again, I'll take her umbrella and break it over her head.

This is what prayer is. It's the umbrella you don't want, didn't ask for and don't need. It's an annoying unnecessary task, like homeless people opening doors for you when they beg for money and wanting to be paid for it. It's an obnoxious way for people to a) pat themselves on the back and make themselves feel good over nothing, b) make you feel guilty and "grateful" to them for doing you a "favor".

All it accomplishes is needlessly bothering and annoying you, making you feel bad and wasting the person's own time. Especially if you tell them not to trouble themselves, explain why you don't need the metaphorical umbrella (you are an agnostic/atheist/another faith/other reason and therefore don't need a prayer), thank them for the thought- and they then have the rudeness and obnoxiousness to do it anyway!

Prayer is just a theist/umbrella holder's way to manipulate and control you, even if they have good intentions and think they are doing what is best for you.

If someone asks you to pray for them, ok. If you offer to pray for someone and they say ok, sure. Otherwise, it's just forcing your own will onto them for your own selfish reasons.

And it does nothing. Doesn't work. Someone on this board once compared someone offering to pray for you when you are ill to offering to do 20 jumping jacks for you and singing an opera aria for you instead of offering to help around the house, mow the lawn, babysit the children or make yourself useful in any way. That's a very good comparison.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm honestly interested- does anyone agree with my umbrella analogy/comparison? Disagree? I'd honestly like to hear some opinions.

Also, should I keep hanging out with "Annie"? And, if so, what can I do about her behavior?

[Beth]

I'm honestly interested- does anyone agree with my umbrella analogy/comparison? Disagree? I'd honestly like to hear some opinions.

No doubt for some people it is like that. But mostly, I just take it as they are thinking of me and wishing me well. It's not really any extra trouble for them - not like walking several blocks out of their way - since they are probably saying prayers regularly anyway.

Also, should I keep hanging out with "Annie"? And, if so, what can I do about her behavior? Only if you enjoy her company enough to make it worth the trouble. I doubt you can do anything much about her behavior and attempting to change it would just annoy her. I would suggest ignoring it, but only if that is less stressful for you than attempting to get her to stop.