Evacuating illegal Israeli settlements= ethnic cleansing?

[Thunder]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1109504.html

right-wing American Jews are about to go on a propaganda blitz.

their claim? that evacuating illegal Israeli-Jewish settlements in the West Bank is "ethnic cleansing".

well, the solution to that is easy. The Jews can stay in their homes...as citizens of Palestine.

:D

The Israeli civilian settlements in Occupied territory are illegal.

They were built on confiscated Arab private property, which is illegal.

They are ONLY for Israeli-Jews. Israeli-Arabs are not allowed.

Defending these settlements is very difficult..if you have a brain and a soul.

[Leif Roar]

their claim? that evacuating illegal Israeli-Jewish settlements in the West Bank is "ethnic cleansing".

Heh. Then what does USA's practice of deporting illegal immigrants amount to?

And pretty much every other country on the face of the nation. ... There should be a possesive "'s" somewhere in the previous sentence, but damned if I know where.

[WildCat]

well, the solution to that is easy. The Jews can stay in their homes...as citizens of Palestine.

So it is your claim that the Palestinians don't mind the settlements, they only object to them being Israeli citizens?

[Thunder]

So it is your claim that the Palestinians don't mind the settlements, they only object to them being Israeli citizens?


the settlements are a physical impedement to them having a contiguous state in the WB. the settlements also discriminate against Arabs. the settlements are also illegal.

i think that if Israel offered to make the settlers citizens of Palestine, as long as they can stay in their homes, and make the settlements themselves Palestinian property, the Palestinians would have a pretty pickle to deal with.

I honestly don't care if a million Jews live in the West Bank, as long as they are willing to become loyal citizens of Palestine. but if they insist on remaining citizens of Israel only, then well..they got's to go.

it is not ethnic cleansing to remove a population based on their citizenship and legal status. especially if some of their neighbors will indeed agree and request to become citizens of Palestine.

[gtc]

Where is the evidence that the Palestinians would accept them as citizens?

Articles 5 and 6 of the PLO charter (http://www.mideastweb.org/plocha.htm) seem to specifically exclude the possibility that those Jews could be ever be allowed to become Palestinian citizens. Sure Arafat promised to overturn those provisions, but they don't seem to have gotten around to doing anything about updating their charter.

And the Hamas (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)charter openly calls for the death of the Jews.

[Thunder]

And the Hamas (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)charter openly calls for the death of the Jews.

Right. The section in the Hamas Charter that quotes from the Quran, which has talking rocks and trees.

:D

We played this little game with Marc39, and he lost miserably.

As to the settlers becoming citizens of Palestine, I'm sure the great majority would refuse the idea of losing their Israeli citizenship and becoming Palestinians, so it is a moot point. But I did read that a few small settlements that had a couple thousand Jews were interested in becoming Palestinians rather then leaving their homes, and I can't imagine Palestine refusing a couple thousand Jews.

I could really see this becoming a part of a future Israel-Palestine Peace Treaty. Those Jews who want to stay in their homes, as Palestinians, may do so.

[gtc]

Right. The section in the Hamas Charter that quotes from the Quran, which has talking rocks and trees.

:D



Just because Hamas is crazy doesn't mean that they aren't dangerous. In fact, I would suggest that they are more dangerous due to their crazy.

We played this little game with Marc39, and he lost miserably.

Let's not resurrect old threads. However, you haven't addressed the point.

I can't imagine Palestine refusing a couple thousand Jews.

Jewish history suggests to me that a Jew not being able to imagine someone doing bad things to them doesn't mean that the other person can't imagine doing bad things to the Jew.

I could really see this becoming a part of a future Israel-Palestine Peace Treaty. Those Jews who want to stay in their homes, as Palestinians, may do so.
But isn't one of the core issues the fact that the Palestinian leaders don't accept that those Jews have any right to their own homes?

[Thunder]

J

But isn't one of the core issues the fact that the Palestinian leaders don't accept that those Jews have any right to their own homes?

things change...during negotiations.

allowing those Jews who are willing to stay as citizens of Palestine, would be seen as a measure of good-will on the part of the Palestinians. and in exchange, they could logically argue that those who refuse Palestinian citizenship should return to Israel.

[WildCat]

things change...during negotiations.

allowing those Jews who are willing to stay as citizens of Palestine, would be seen as a measure of good-will on the part of the Palestinians. and in exchange, they could logically argue that those who refuse Palestinian citizenship should return to Israel.
So all your claims are based on your psychic ability to predict the future?

[gtc]

So all your claims are based on your psychic ability to predict the future?

The same argument could apply to the US. We will give the Americans a choice - live as second class citizens in an Indian nation (and trust the good will of the Indians not to treat you even worse than this) or leave your homes and return to whatever country you came from. I can't see why Americans would see anything wrong with this choice.

[Thunder]

We will give the Americans a choice - live as second class citizens in an Indian nation

see, this is what we at JREF call a "strawman" argument. I never said that Jews should live as second class citizens in Palestine. That was a strawman that you created, so that you could easily break it apart, rather then take on the arguments that I actually made.

Any Jewish citizens of Palestine should be treated as complete equals, just as Arabs are treated as complete equals in the Jewish State of Israel.

[gtc]

I never said that Jews should live as second class citizens in Palestine.

No. But they will be treated as second class citizens. The PA is an unashamedly Arab nationalist organisation and Hamas is unashamedly an Islamist organisation. See Dhimmi and Jizya.

[WildCat]

see, this is what we at JREF call a "strawman" argument.
No, it's not since he never attributed it to you.

But you do seem to making claims based not on actual facts (what the Palestinians themselves have actually stated in their official documents) but on predictions based on nothing but your rose-colored crystal ball.

[Thunder]

No. But they will be treated as second class citizens.

prove it.

I see no more reason to believe that Jews in an Arab country would be treated as second-class citizens, then to believe that Arabs in a Jewish state would be treated as second-class citizens.

[gtc]

I've provided the links. Its your claim that they will be welcomed with open arms despite:

a) being Jews;
b) occupying land that the Palestinians consider to be theirs;
c) the evidence of what the Palestinian leaders actually say about the position of Jews.

So you need to show that your claim is correct. And you can't do that.

[Thunder]

I've provided the links. Its your claim that they will be welcomed with open arms despite:

a) being Jews;
b) occupying land that the Palestinians consider to be theirs;
c) the evidence of what the Palestinian leaders actually say about the position of Jews.

So you need to show that your claim is correct. And you can't do that.

Many Palestinians talk about a one-state solution. This means Jews and Arab share the same land.

[WildCat]

Many Palestinians talk about a one-state solution. This means Jews and Arab share the same land.
No, that's only one possibility. Other possibilities are that the Jews are killed, that the Jews are forced to leave, or that the Jews are allowed to stay but with diminished rights.

What do the official documents of the Palestinians say about this parky?

[Thunder]

No, that's only one possibility. Other possibilities are that the Jews are killed, that the Jews are forced to leave, or that the Jews are allowed to stay but with diminished rights.

What do the official documents of the Palestinians say about this parky?

i would love it...just love it..if you provided us with a quote from a Palestinian leader who calls for the murder of EVERY Jew in Israel and the WB.

i would also love a quote from a Palestinian leader calling for Jews to stay..but as second-class citizens.

you show the quotes, and I will believe it.

[The Fool]

so to all those who want to defend this...


do you want these little bits of Israel to stay within a palestinian state?

[gtc]

Have you read the documents I linked to in Post #5, Parky?

so to all those who want to defend this...


do you want these little bits of Israel to stay within a palestinian state?

What do you mean?

Are you talking about Israeli enclaves within Palestine? That may or may not be workable; just as the seperation between Gaza and the West Bank may or may not be workable.

[Thunder]

Have you read the documents I linked to in Post #5, Parky?



The PA charter does not say that in any final status agreement with Israel, they would never allow any settlers to remain in their homes, even as Palestinian citizens.

And the Hamas Charter does not call for the murder of all Jews in Israel. It has a quote about a talking tree and a talking rock.

;)

[WildCat]

i would love it...just love it..if you provided us with a quote from a Palestinian leader who calls for the murder of EVERY Jew in Israel and the WB.

i would also love a quote from a Palestinian leader calling for Jews to stay..but as second-class citizens.

you show the quotes, and I will believe it.
From the PLO charter (http://www.netaxs.com/~iris/plochart.htm):

Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.
So how many of those Jews are still alive parky? I'd guess... none.

So there's your proof right there, but I bet you lied when you said you'd believe it!

[Thunder]

From the PLO charter (http://www.netaxs.com/%7Eiris/plochart.htm):

So how many of those Jews are still alive parky? I'd guess... none.

So there's your proof right there, but I bet you lied when you said you'd believe it!

I believe that they would consider anyone who is descended from a Jew born in Palestine, would also be considered a Palestine.

But this is about a negotiated peace treaty that has yet to occur. all sorts of exciting things happen in negotiations.

[gtc]

I believe that they would consider anyone who is descended from a Jew born in Palestine, would also be considered a Palestine.

Maybe. But how many of the settlers fall into that category?

But this is about a negotiated peace treaty that has yet to occur. all sorts of exciting things happen in negotiations.

Maybe. But we are saying its not as simple as the suggestion you made and we don't see the same reasons to be optimistic as you do, given everything they have said and done in the past.

[WildCat]

I believe that they would consider anyone who is descended from a Jew born in Palestine, would also be considered a Palestine.

But this is about a negotiated peace treaty that has yet to occur. all sorts of exciting things happen in negotiations.
Not so.


Article 5: The Palestinians are those Arab nationals who, until 1947, normally resided in Palestine regardless of whether they were evicted from it or have stayed there. Anyone born, after that date, of a Palestinian father - whether inside Palestine or outside it - is also a Palestinian.
So if your father was a Palestinian born prior to 1947 you are a Palestinian. But if the daughter of that man married someone who came after that man and their children would not be Palestinains. Now here we are 6 generations later...

So by that formula there's probably a few Jews who could stay, everyone else has to go.

But that's just written documantation, and you have your crystal ball and sooper-psychic powers. It's a close call, but I'll have to go with the official document.

[The Fool]

Have you read the documents I linked to in Post #5, Parky?



What do you mean?

Are you talking about Israeli enclaves within Palestine? That may or may not be workable; just as the seperation between Gaza and the West Bank may or may not be workable.
what I mean is those that whine about Israelis having to leave settlements should tell us if its thier position that little bits of Israel should exist inside a future palestinian state.

[gtc]

what I mean is those that whine about Israelis having to leave settlements should tell us if its thier position that little bits of Israel should exist inside a future palestinian state.

Parky is the only one in this thread who has suggested that the Israelis should stay (but he says they should become Palestinians).

As I said, exclaves aren't unheard of but I suspect they wouldn't be easy to supply and defend.

[Skeptic]

Where is the evidence that the Palestinians would accept them as citizens?

Articles 5 and 6 of the PLO charter (http://www.mideastweb.org/plocha.htm) seem to specifically exclude the possibility that those Jews could be ever be allowed to become Palestinian citizens. Sure Arafat promised to overturn those provisions, but they don't seem to have gotten around to doing anything about updating their charter.

And the Hamas (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)charter openly calls for the death of the Jews.

It's all the occupations' fault, however.

The occupation of any land between the Jordan and the Mediterranean by any Jew.

Just read Arafat's speeches, or the PLO or Hamas charters, or... well, you get the idea.