A christian is angry at atheists ... sigh

[nw843x]

Here's a doozy from the great white north.

http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/thesearch/archive/2009/08/22/who-s-quot-conformist-quot-now-richards-takes-on-atheists.aspx

Quote "So he starts off the book by throwing Josef Stalin (below) in the face of proud atheists. Stalin, the world's most famously egregious atheist, was a nihilist of the highest order, Richards says. To the Soviet dictator, murdering people was a thrill."

And another:

Quote "Nevertheless, Richards is adamant about what he considers the intellectual laziness behind so much religion bashing today. People who like to attack religion think they're being risqué, Richards said, but most of their arguments are just "conformist" and "insipid."
He's got a point. I've heard many uninteresting anti-religion attacks myself, not the least from Richard Dawkins and company."

[Pure Argent]

You are surprised by this...

why?

[HansMustermann]

I'm with PA here. The guilt by association fallacy is nothing new, and the millitant theists have been doing it for ages. And, yes, Stalin, Hitler and Mao are the standard set, never mind that at least one of them wasn't an atheist at all. Did you only now run into it?

[Seoigeach]

.... so, so predictable!

us atheists are a dangerous lot :rolleyes:

[Safe-Keeper]

Why did the article outline in bold every name and book title it mentioned? It makes it really hard for people to read.

Also, what's with the "world's most famous atheist" line? That's like calling Hitler the world's most famous Christian, or for that matter the world's most famous white man. It's utterly ridiculous.

[Eyeron]

Wasn't Stalin raised a Gregorian Orthodox Christian?

If so, so much for that theory.

[tuc0]

Wasn't Stalin raised a Gregorian Orthodox Christian?

If so, so much for that theory.

Why? Lots of atheists were raised Christian...

[Baby Nemesis]

It would be simplistic indeed to attribute the mass murderous inclinations of people like Stalin, Pol Pot and Mao Zedong to their atheism. Obviously they would all have had multiple motives, and a number of things about their personalities would have inclined them to be like that.

But here are a few thoughts. From a web page arguing that it wasn't their atheism that made them mass murderers: (http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/hitlerstalin.html)

One could make a valid claim that since Stalin attended a Russian orthodox seminary (from 1894 to 1899) as a teenager in Tiflis, the dogmatic black or white outlook of the world influenced his subsequent actions. As the historian Alan Bullock in his book Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives (1991) explained:

The fact that it was a Church education helped to form the mind of a man who was to become known for his dogmatism and his propensity for seeing issues in absolute terms, in black and white. Anyone reading Stalin's speeches and writings will notice their catechistic structure, the use of question and answer, the reduction of complex questions to a set of simplified formulas, the quoting of text to support his arguments. The same Church influence has been noted by biographers in his style of speaking or writing Russian: 'declamatory and repetitive, with liturgical overtones.'

However the main influence on all these three men were dogmatic Marxism-Communism. Joseph M. Bochenski in his essay "A Critique of Communism" in the book Outline of Communism clearly showed what the shortcomings of this system are.

Firstly, communists are prone to oversimplification. Complex problems of the real world are explained in simplistic terms. Thus the communist eschatology of a classless society leads them to believe that collectivization is the main source of human happiness. Never mind the fact that each human beings have different - and opposing - dreams, goals and desires. They also believe that all problems of labor can be resolved by nationalization of all industries and the banning of private ownership. This saps the human spirit of the will to excel. This simplistic outlook spills into their belief about moral issues. Since communism is the ultimate good, anyone who is opposed to it must necessarily be evil. Like religious fundamentalists, to the communists everything
is in black and white. "You are either with us or against us."

(Italics in original)

[HansMustermann]

Well, it's not just that, it's also that Stalin stopped the persecution of the church and eventually even reinstated it, when they promised they'd pray for him. To me that doesn't exactly sound like something a real atheist would care about at all.

Now maybe if it were some neutral issue, I'd say it's hedging the bets, just in case. But in Marxism-Leninism religion is seen as "opium for the masses" and generally something bad. Allowing it just in case it'll get you into heaven, would IMHO imply _some_ belief that there's any chance at all of there being a heaven.

[Baby Nemesis]

I think Stalin made concessions to the Church in World War II to get the support of more people for the war effort. I'm not sure there was anything more going on, but then I've never looked into it.

Something else that might have shaped his attitudes to others was being brutalised by his violent father. Hitler also had a father who was violent towards him. Obviously having violent fathers didn't doom them to becoming violent/sociopathic themselves; it was just a risk factor.

The inflexibility of thought referred to would have naturally made them less open to reason with opponents. It's scary to think that if some of the world's leading politicians or former politicians turned up on the board, such as Blair and Bush, it's possible we might discover a similar lack of willingness/ability to discuss opponents' viewpoints with reasoned analysis in them. It would be sobering if they responded in simplistic ways. "So these were the people who took us into the Iraq War - people seemingly incapable of assessing things from all angles?" I find it troubling that it's possible for very few people to make decisions that affect so many.

Of course, being probable psychopaths was probably a major factor in the behaviour of people like Stalin. An old article called Distinctive Brains of Psychopaths (http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0010570) talks about the abnormal brain waves found in studies of psychopaths that help to explain their lack of a conscience.

[Cainkane1]

I read somewhere that Josef Stalin wasn't an atheist. He believed in God but intensely disliked religion. Not being religious doesn't necessarily translate into being an atheist.

[Bikewer]

Religious types also like to characterize Russia and China as "atheist countries" wherein all manner of abuses were possible.
I point out that the populace of these countries did not sit down together and come to the intellectual decision that there was no God...Rather the brand of Communist atheism was imposed upon them by totalitarian dictators.
When the Soviet Union collapsed, the churches were promptly full of officials and party members who had remained committed to their beliefs while professing the party line.

[kittynh]

I always heard that on his death bed Stalin was praying to God and really shocked everyone....however, from what I can google, it seems he fell out of bed and had one heck of a nasty death (though not as nasty as say a Siberian salt mine).

Xians love to tell the story about Stalin on his deathbed crying out for God, and all that.

I'm not saying he was an atheist. But really can't you atheists please claim him? After all the Xians are stuck with Anita Bryant and Jerry Falwell. Why should the Xians get all the bad guys?

[HansMustermann]

Well, I don't know the details of what Stalin said there, and as I was saying I'm not that convinced that he was an atheist in the first place.

But I would like to point out that atheists also use expressions like "oh my god", or "goddammit" all the time, just because they're common expression with a non-religious meaning. Theist apologists seem to deliberately mistake that for, "see! you just mentioned god so you must have faith in him!" Which is, of course, just as much bullcrap as saying that someone worships Satan if they used an expression like "the devil may care" or "what the hell".

So, anyway, just because someone pulled an "oh god" without thinking when dying in pain, doesn't automatically make them a believer.

[pgwenthold]

But I would like to point out that atheists also use expressions like "oh my god", or "goddammit" all the time, just because they're common expression with a non-religious meaning. Theist apologists seem to deliberately mistake that for, "see! you just mentioned god so you must have faith in him!" Which is, of course, just as much bullcrap as saying that someone worships Satan if they used an expression like "the devil may care" or "what the hell".

Or worships Saturn because they talk about Saturday, or Thor when talking about Thursday.

And don't get me started on March.

[billydkid]

People always bring up notorious, supposed atheists as an indictment of not believing. Nevermind that the Church and religion has not been, for the most part and most of human history, exactly a great champion of human rights or humane behavior.