Who are the 911 conspiracy theorists?

[Scott Sommers]

It seems to me that almost no one is really left in the 911 conspiracy movement. As I've said before, now that Obama is in the White House, all the marginal believers in these ideas are back worrying about health care and gun control. So what kind of people are still left leaving comments on cites like this or showing up at the demos they still have?

1. What kind of person is still a member of these groups? For example, what do they do for a living, what kind of education do they have?

2. Has anybody been rendered useless by their involvement in 911 conspiracy? Are there people who might otherwise have been active members of the Democrates who now feel disillusioned with Obama because he won't hold a new investigation and prosecute people for the WTC controlled demolition, etc? Or are the remaining 911 conspiracy folks just the freaks left over from any kind of group that dies? Has the 911 conspiracy movement evolved into just another conspiracy theory and is composed of the same kind of person who believes aliens live in the Denver International Airport?

[~enigma~]

1. What kind of person is still a member of these groups?
There are no people in the TM.

[tsig]

It seems to me that almost no one is really left in the 911 conspiracy movement. As I've said before, now that Obama is in the White House, all the marginal believers in these ideas are back worrying about health care and gun control. So what kind of people are still left leaving comments on cites like this or showing up at the demos they still have?

1. What kind of person is still a member of these groups? For example, what do they do for a living, what kind of education do they have?

2. Has anybody been rendered useless by their involvement in 911 conspiracy? Are there people who might otherwise have been active members of the Democrates who now feel disillusioned with Obama because he won't hold a new investigation and prosecute people for the WTC controlled demolition, etc? Or are the remaining 911 conspiracy folks just the freaks left over from any kind of group that dies? Has the 911 conspiracy movement evolved into just another conspiracy theory and is composed of the same kind of person who believes aliens live in the Denver International Airport?

The birther movement has sucked out whatever life was left in the TM.

[Scott Sommers]

Birthers are primarily Republicans - of course. Back at its peak, the 911 whackos had a large number of Democrates who saw 'controlled demolitions' as proof of Bush's evil powers. There are still some attempts in the groups I belong to - and even here - to make 911 Truth a left-wing statement instead of a Muslim extremist position.

Are you saying that the 911
(a) All or almost all of the 911 Democrates have dropped out and now are concerned primarily with party issues,
(b) 911 Democrates are so disillusioned with the party, they are now birthers, or
(c) 911 conspiracy was primarily non-partisan and can not be seen in the terms I descrine.

[AJM8125]

(d)Mostly children and young adults who've never voted and see themselves as activists who won't subscribe to any party line because all politicians are cut from the same filthy cloth.

Which also explains why some truthers are now birthers.

[TexasJack]

They are extremists, and terrorist apologists.

[Thunder]

the TM is made up:

a. losers who have no life.
b. insane people.
c. terrorist appologist america-haters.
d. highly intelligent but unsuccessful demagogues like Alex Jones.

[Scott Sommers]

I can understand the kind of categories that are usually used to think about TMers. AJM8125's answer comes closest to what I'm looking for. Of this group of teenagers that's still in the TM, who would they be? There are people who post here who have meet these guys and there are people here who claim to be these guys. What do they do to pay the rent and buy food?

[Sam.I.Am]

The TM at it's height was mostly politically driven by people who hated Bush with a fiery passion. Now that he's gone those types of people don't want to raise the issue with their guy in office because deep down they know that it was all BS and was just propaganda to further their political agenda. The detritus that is left today are the True Believers™ (AKA bats*** crazy loons) and internet trolls. You will occasionally run across people who saw Loose Change or something similar and fell for it, most of those people are smart enough to look into it further and realize that they had been had.

[Thunder]

btw, what is a "CONSPIRARY"?

=)

[UNLoVedRebel]

It seems to me that almost no one is really left in the 911 conspiracy movement. As I've said before, now that Obama is in the White House, all the marginal believers in these ideas are back worrying about health care and gun control. So what kind of people are still left leaving comments on cites like this or showing up at the demos they still have?

1. What kind of person is still a member of these groups? For example, what do they do for a living, what kind of education do they have?
Answered in this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=129967) OP

[Scott Sommers]

Thank you. This is very helpful.

The second part of my question concerns the group that's left over since 911 Truth died. Does this group resemble the sample?

[UNLoVedRebel]

Thank you. This is very helpful.

The second part of my question concerns the group that's left over since 911 Truth died. Does this group resemble the sample?

Since the poll was done in 2006, I'd say the answer is........... probably. The few leftovers still pounding away comment after comment would have to be the least educated among the group. If their BS detector hasn't overheated by now, then something's wrong with their BS detector.

[JoeyDonuts]

btw, what is a "CONSPIRARY"?

=)

It's what you get when you put Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il, Mao Tse-Tung, and Richard Nixon in a room together.

[TruthersLie]

the TM is made up:

a. losers who have no life.
b. insane people.
c. terrorist appologist america-haters.
d. highly intelligent but unsuccessful demagogues like Alex Jones.

Parky.

I have to disagree with D.

They are NOT highly intelligent.

To quote an old professor of mine "they are just smart enough to be dangerous, but too stupid to see how."

That is MHO.

I also think you need to add in a E.
E. People who feel excluded and left out. They can't accept the fact that they are responsible for their own lives, so want some vast consipiracy which in charge so they can feel better. (see it isn't my fault, the system is rigged).

[JihadJane]

The intellecual hard-hitters are out in force on this thread with their in-depth analyses!

Who is this strange scott.in.taiwan who only discovered twoofers last week?

They are extremists, and terrorist apologists.

:D

[stateofgrace]

The intellecual hard-hitters are out in force on this thread with their in-depth analyses!

Who is this strange scott.in.taiwan who only discovered twoofers last week?



:D

Thank you JJ for contributing to this thread. Your words are like shining stars in a dimly lit sky. You words of wisdom are something to behold and something I will treasure for many years to come. I am so grateful that an intellectual giant such as yourself as taken the time to lower your standards and write such words of profound importance. I stand in awe at your contribution to this thread and may I bow before you as you have lowered your high standards and posted your pearls of wisdom. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to be the smartest individual on the planet and have to deal with mere mortals on a daily basis but I for one would like to offer my humble thanks to you. You analytic skills of the situation and your in-depth post as cast new light on it all for me and shown me how a true great mind functions.

Thank you for your input and please would you respond if only to call me an inferior being, a mere crumb before you or maybe somebody who, unlike yourself is unworthy to have an opinion on anything. I look forward to your next post will eager anticipation, knowing that you will once again set not only this thread on fire but the entire forum alight with your words.

Many thanks SOG.

[JihadJane]

Thank you JJ for contributing to this thread. Your words are like shining stars in a dimly lit sky. You words of wisdom are something to behold and something I will treasure for many years to come. I am so grateful that an intellectual giant such as yourself as taken the time to lower your standards and write such words of profound importance. I stand in awe at your contribution to this thread and may I bow before you as you have lowered your high standards and posted your pearls of wisdom. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to be the smartest individual on the planet and have to deal with mere mortals on a daily basis but I for one would like to offer my humble thanks to you. You analytic skills of the situation and your in-depth post as cast new light on it all for me and shown me how a true great mind functions.

Thank you for your input and please would you respond if only to call me an inferior being, a mere crumb before you or maybe somebody who, unlike yourself is unworthy to have an opinion on anything. I look forward to your next post will eager anticipation, knowing that you will once again set not only this thread on fire but the entire forum alight with your words.

Many thanks SOG.

You're very welcome.

[Stellafane]

Someone with a supercilious attitude sarcastically referring to us as "intellecual hard-hitters." The irony hangs so heavy, the air is rusty.

[HyJinX]

It's what you get when you put Kim Il-Sung, Kim Jong-Il, Mao Tse-Tung, and Richard Nixon in a room together.

...and Scooby-Do

[Edx]

Thank you JJ for contributing to this thread. Your words are like shining stars in a dimly lit sky. You words of wisdom are something to behold and something I will treasure for many years to come. I am so grateful that an intellectual giant such as yourself as taken the time to lower your standards and write such words of profound importance. I stand in awe at your contribution to this thread and may I bow before you as you have lowered your high standards and posted your pearls of wisdom. I cannot begin to imagine what it must be like to be the smartest individual on the planet and have to deal with mere mortals on a daily basis but I for one would like to offer my humble thanks to you. You analytic skills of the situation and your in-depth post as cast new light on it all for me and shown me how a true great mind functions.

Thank you for your input and please would you respond if only to call me an inferior being, a mere crumb before you or maybe somebody who, unlike yourself is unworthy to have an opinion on anything. I look forward to your next post will eager anticipation, knowing that you will once again set not only this thread on fire but the entire forum alight with your words.

Many thanks SOG.

Theres some sarcasm in here somewhere.

[JihadJane]

Someone with a supercilious attitude sarcastically referring to us as "intellecual hard-hitters." The irony hangs so heavy, the air is rusty.

Sorry for the typo - I meant "intellectual hard-hitters". Don't worry, though, because you are not included in either category.

[newton3376]

1. What kind of person is still a member of these groups? For example, what do they do for a living, what kind of education do they have?

Many truthers I have encountered over the internet were either on disability or unemployment.....

Several had serious mental conditions for which they were on prescription medication for.

A few seemed rather intelligent but were woefully mistaken about even fundamental topics in science and engineering....

Math ability was around zero and the ability to understand physics concepts wasn't much better. Many were very confused and paranoid when it came to topics such as electromagnetics, relativity, or quantum.

I've met a few who claimed to have degrees or training in something technical, but the things they would say cause me to seriously doubt this. How they ever managed to get a piece of paper from any reputable university is beyond me.

I guess in the long run they really aren't that important.....none of the crazy things they believe will happen anyway and they are a small (yet annoying) minority.

They will never change anything......
They will never have a significant impact.....
They will never convince the public......

Almost 8 years and they have done next to nothing. They will fade away still screaming their nonsense to each other while the rest of the world just smiles and moves on.

[stateofgrace]

Theres some lots of sarcasm in here somewhere.

Corrected that for you.;)

[Brainster]

It's always been my impression that there's a generational schism among the Troofers. The older folks are almost all from the old paranoid left; the people who thought the CIA killed Kennedy because he wasn't tough enough on the communists. You see a lot of grey-haired ponytails among the men at a David Ray Griffin speech. They can be highly educated; there is a ridiculously disproportionate number of such people in academia although they are clustered in fields like theology and "peace studies".

The younger Troofers are mostly survivalist, anti-government types a la Alex Jones. They tend to be poorly educated and hold menial jobs.

[T.A.M.]

It's always been my impression that there's a generational schism among the Troofers. The older folks are almost all from the old paranoid left; the people who thought the CIA killed Kennedy because he wasn't tough enough on the communists. You see a lot of grey-haired ponytails among the men at a David Ray Griffin speech. They can be highly educated; there is a ridiculously disproportionate number of such people in academia although they are clustered in fields like theology and "peace studies".

The younger Troofers are mostly survivalist, anti-government types a la Alex Jones. They tend to be poorly educated and hold menial jobs.

very astute assessment, not unlike my "nutty professors and angry young men" theory.

TAM:)

[Scott Sommers]

These remarks have been very interesting for me. I am particualrly interested in the remark about people in religion and peace studies. This fits with my limited experience, but also leads to a bigger issue.

Education is usually discussed and measured as though it's a interval data, that is, it is linear and each sequential number is larger than the one before it. Social science studies like the one from J&MC typically treat education this way. Someone with a BA in peace studies or even a PhD should not be treated the same way as someone with a degree in engineering or analytic philosophy.

The suggestion that not all education is equal suggests it should be treated categorically. And it is this that I wonder about. What's the difference between someone who is a mill wright versus a temporary employee who wanders from clerical position to clerical position. They would both be high school grads. In fact, the temporary clerk might even have some years of vocational school. I know Americans caught in this world with graduate degrees in unemployable pdisciplines. Still, they might be far more helpless in terms of their ability to look after themselves or even understand that complex systems behave in unexpected ways.

So are 911 TMers more likely to fall into this helpless but relatively better educated category?

[beachnut]

Someone who failed physics.
Anti-intellectuals who strive to return to witch burning.
People who think hearsay is evidence.
Followers who fail to check out who they are following.
Those who lack knowledge on a broad range of topics.
Google-aholics who think what is on the Internet is true.
Gullible people who think 0.0087 percent of all engineers are right on 911.
Math challenged.
Physics deficient.
Not skeptical of the first thoughts they adopt on 911.
Those that love opinions instead of hard facts.

A few are selling the false ideas in books and DVD to make money off of the gullible and knowledge challenge on 911; those who remain willfully ignorant and can't see the fraud.

[BigAl]

So are 911 TMers more likely to fall into this helpless but relatively better educated category?

We are missing an important category, People that didn't witness any of the events of 9/11, hundreds of thousands of people. Essentially no eyewitnesses question the basic story of 9/11. The couple that do are incoherent.

[abenja1]

And let's not forget your "intellectual analysis" of debunkers which consists of believing all of them should be killed for having a different opinion of yours.

The intellecual hard-hitters are out in force on this thread with their in-depth analyses!

Who is this strange scott.in.taiwan who only discovered twoofers last week?



:D

[Scott Sommers]

I live in Taiwan. Most people here don't speak English and the ones who do don't speak very well. It's very common for guys to have girlfriends who barely speak any English at all but communicate with them in this bad English. So you can imagine, there's this white guy, he hangs around with a couple of other white guys just like himself and with their girlfriends who barely speak English. He's the smartest guy in his group and, you know, his girlfriend is so proud of him because he's so smart and knows so much about everything.

You can't really blame a guy like that having the opinions he has.

[Stellafane]

the TM is made up:

a. losers who have no life.
b. insane people.
c. terrorist appologist america-haters.
d. highly intelligent but unsuccessful demagogues like Alex Jones.

I actually think that category "A" forms the core of the 9/11 TM (at least among those who participate here in this forum). The obvious question then becomes: why are no-life losers attracted to the TM? I mean, why not get into something constructive, like Habitat for Humanity or something? I think it's because those types of activites require you to build a meaningful, significant life one step at a time. The TM, on the other hand, offers the allure of fast-track, zero-to-hero significance (at least if you're willing to squint hard enough, block your ears, and go "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!" a lot).

After all, in the off chance Truthers are actually correct, these seeming nonentities, who up to now have had little or no success in life, will suddenly become elite, vanguard members of arguably the most important group in the world, ready to wrest America from its evil oppressors and build a new society in their own image. It's kind of like buying a Lottery ticket -- the chances that it's going to pay off is extremely miniscule, but if it does your life will be transformed. That's why I suspect so many Truthers are utterly oblivious to all evidence, logic, and reason; they're dreaming about that fantasy world to come, the one in which their former lives as total losers are finally vindicated. By numbly repeating the Truther mantra, they create just enough space in their minds for their twisted little fantasies to exist.

Eventually, of course, each Truther will have to face a choice: either admit to themselves that it was all a total waste and belatedly carve the best life they can out of reality, or decend into insanity. Either way, I'm sure it's a decision each Truther wants to put off for as long as they can. If I were to guess, it's the reluctance to make that last decision that's primarily fueling the stumbling, directionless dead-man-walking that is the current 9/11 TM.

[Scott Sommers]

I agree with you. There are still other aspects of the Truther Problem that I wonder about. What kind of losers are Truthers? What gets called the post-industrial economy has resulted in new categories of people. Categories of people used historically by social sciences may not be useful in understanding this.

The idea that someone with 'some college or university' is better off than a trademan with high school graduation and on-the-job training may no longer be true. A one-year diploma in leadership may be 'some college', but it might not be enough to save you from becoming one of the jillions of Americans I read about with multiple part-time white-collar jobs. I can imagine that hurts.

Several years ago, I worked out with one of the David Ike-like-of-guys - although I didn't know who David Ike was at the time. He had graduated from a polytechnic in Britain and moved to Taiwan where he learned Chinese well enough to work as a translator. In fact, he had a very working-class background and his greatest skill was that he could teach and fight Muay Thai kickboxing. I learned from him all about the alien space base underneath the Denver International Airport. This was a big deal for him because it meant he didn't have to read the newspapers to know what's really going on. It wasn't important to even know who the president of the USA was. Afterall, what does it mean to the Greys?

And that's how I've come to see these whackos. You don't need to know anything about Western history or culture. The newspapers aren't where you learn about world affairs and the people who read them are - what's that word that gets used here all the time? - shills. It must make you feel pretty good to know that all those professors are wrong and that your ten seconds of research on 911Truth.com told you more than their 10 years of study in the university system that failed you out.

But I may be wrong. It may just be a matter of years of education.

[UNLoVedRebel]

I agree with you. There are still other aspects of the Truther Problem that I wonder about. What kind of losers are Truthers? What gets called the post-industrial economy has resulted in new categories of people. Categories of people used historically by social sciences may not be useful in understanding this.

The idea that someone with 'some college or university' is better off than a trademan with high school graduation and on-the-job training may no longer be true. A one-year diploma in leadership may be 'some college', but it might not be enough to save you from becoming one of the jillions of Americans I read about with multiple part-time white-collar jobs. I can imagine that hurts.

Several years ago, I worked out with one of the David Ike-like-of-guys - although I didn't know who David Ike was at the time. He had graduated from a polytechnic in Britain and moved to Taiwan where he learned Chinese well enough to work as a translator. In fact, he had a very working-class background and his greatest skill was that he could teach and fight Muay Thai kickboxing. I learned from him all about the alien space base underneath the Denver International Airport. This was a big deal for him because it meant he didn't have to read the newspapers to know what's really going on. It wasn't important to even know who the president of the USA was. Afterall, what does it mean to the Greys?

And that's how I've come to see these whackos. You don't need to know anything about Western history or culture. The newspapers aren't where you learn about world affairs and the people who read them are - what's that word that gets used here all the time? - shills. It must make you feel pretty good to know that all those professors are wrong and that your ten seconds of research on 911Truth.com told you more than their 10 years of study in the university system that failed you out.

But I may be wrong. It may just be a matter of years of education.

In the U.S., it's not at all uncommon for someone to go to a community college or state university for a few years only to drop out once working class life hits. TV has them thinking that the NBA, a rap career, or the UFC is a more fruitful of a vocation to pursue. I'd say the people who do stick it out are better off in the critical thinking department - whether they're better off in the job market is another story. Even if college graduates are not trained in the subject matter, at least they know there are experts who spend decades learning about these things. They should have learned that scientists communicate their findings via a peer-reviewed journal and not YouTube comments.

I agree that the demarcation between 'no college-some college-college graduate' does not tell us as much as it could. It's hard to measure something like life experience.

ETA: I explained why the 'some college' group is slightly more likely to believe in 9/11 CTs than the 'high school grad' group in this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4242232#post4242232) post.

[TruthersLie]

SNIP
ETA: I explained why the 'some college' group is slightly more likely to believe in 9/11 CTs than the 'high school grad' group in this (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=4242232#post4242232) post.

Which ties directly into the "just smart enough to be dangrous, but too stupid to see it."

I think it is also a generational thing (which has been brought up before). These young twoofs have no respect for the work of the experts because they were raised and told "you are just as good/smart/equal as anyone else." So they think that their partially formed CT idea is just as valid as several thousand hours of engineering work.

You can see the demarkation between the some college and college grad. Particularly in those who have taken ANY research methods class. Once you learn how to do research the CT woo is all over.

[ImANiceGuy]

Thank you. This is very helpful.

The second part of my question concerns the group that's left over since 911 Truth died. Does this group resemble the sample?

I'm confused.

What is "9/11 Truth" exactly?

I can only assume you are categorizing anyone who believes in some type of alternate explication regarding any aspect of the 9/11 attacks and wants their version of the truth to be revealed as members of "9/11 Truth"?

This goes back to my confusion, because I'm wondering how helpful any information could be, if received by a person capable of making such sweeping generalizations.

How wide of a swath does the paint brush cut? What limit is there to your slippery slope logic?


I'm just going to go ahead here and give you reasonable reply to my own post, just for fun 'cause I'm certain it will not manifest on its own:

I suppose that my definition of "911 Truth" would include anyone who thinks the Gov't was in on it, whether be lihop or mihop. The truth is that a conspiracy did take place, as it would when any group of people plan an attack. Crazy people will believe crazy things, often in the face of tremendous evidence to the contrary, and it will always be this way,these people will always exist. Whichever one of us here at jref said that "911 Truth" is dead, really needs to explain how they define "911 Truth", and "dead". However, until some solid evidence is presented in support of any of these theories, they can all be dismissed as inaccurate and ridiculed.

My reply would be; At what point does intelligence failure become complicit conspiracy and the old-boys club become a whitewash cover-up?

[beachnut]

... My reply would be; At what point does intelligence failure become complicit conspiracy and the old-boys club become a whitewash cover-up?
BS talk and no evidence. When will 911 truthers present evidence for their delusions and moronic opinions based on hearsay, bias, lies and fantasy? When?

Oops, I made a mistake you are just BS talking no real point to make; thank you

But the ref was http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=129967 (why you are confused)



1. What kind of person is still a member of these groups? For example, what do they do for a living, what kind of education do they have?
Most of the followers just failed to engage rational thought processes. No real research, no logic, no judgment based on knowledge. Lack of knowledge.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

So what kind of people are still left leaving comments on cites like this or showing up at the demos they still have?


Well, on this site it seems that there are really only two types that stick around:


The truly mentally ill.
You know those kids in school that always somehow saw immense humor in making the teacher angry? Yeah, them...


Occasionally some poor dupe will wander in here thinking he has all the answers, or all the questions, or only the ones that matter, or... whatever... but they tend not to stick around. They're typically sane enough to see when they're outclassed and choose to remove themselves from the environment that threatens their belief.

[Scott Sommers]

When I was a young man, I did volunteer with metally ill adults. Most where very heavily medicated and talked with me frankly about what they believed. While some 911 folks deeply resemble my former clients, not all of them do. Despite the doubts of some new-found JREFF friends, I do live in Asia and have only started posting here recently. Like an anthropologist, I want to know, what has lead my new-found friends to our current situation?

My current position is that almost every 911 problem folk is a young very white man struggling with his new found situation in life. No one else will listen to his 'problems'. I'd like to hear something convincing, but the 'truth' is that my 911 friends appear very much to be weak, unconvincing people who think that their problems with 911 is shared by some 'high-powered' expert. And they say this without any evidence it is true.

I'm sure that most of you can get a real job. I am very good at preparing resumes. If you talk to me about your more deeply situated problems, I'm sure I can help you.

[tuc0]

When I was a young man, I did volunteer with metally ill adults.

You mean they listened to Nightwish and Cradle Of Filth? You're a brave man.
:duck:

[Klimax]

You mean they listened to Nightwish and Cradle Of Filth? You're a brave man.
:duck:

What's the problem with Nightwish? :D

[tuc0]

What's the problem with Nightwish? :D

Nothing at all, they're perfectly fine. I was just horrified when I first heard them and then again when they became successful. They are to Metal what Heiwa is to engineering. :cool:

[Klimax]

Nothing at all, they're perfectly fine. I was just horrified when I first heard them and then again when they became successful. They are to Metal what Heiwa is to engineering. :cool:

Who said metal?

And the comparsion you made is "not nice" to them...

[Scott Sommers]

[QUOTE=scott.in.taiwan;5021206]When I was a young man, I did volunteer with metally ill adults.QUOTE]

Talk about a garbled sentence. It's supposed to be

I did volunteer work with mentally ill adults. But I guess you know that.

[tuc0]

Who said metal?

And the comparsion you made is "not nice" to them...

You're right. They (probably) mean no harm and I apologize to them. :)

scott: It just struck me as a funny typo. But not to derail too much: I think the only ones left are those who believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories (and other woo). They happily adopted 9/11 because it fits so neatly into their worldview. As a movement 9/11 T.R.U.T.H. failed miserably but the general idea that 9/11 was an inside job will always be a part of the CT subculture.

[Scott Sommers]

No problem. I thought the joke was hilarious.

911 strikes me as something more than just a conspiracy theory. It's the first time I know that a conspiracy theory has successfully merged with a social movement. David Ike is just as radical if you want to interpret it that way - and he does. But no mainstream leftists take him seriously.

911 has failed as a movement, but not as a philosophy. It was never able to mobolize political action on its own and in combination with leftist political movements was always dwarfed by their agendas. But it was different and reminds me too much of the Aum Shinrikyo movement in Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aum_Shinrikyo

[tuc0]

But they didn't "successfully merge with a social movement", that's the point. Even when they had their 15 minutes of fame a couple of years ago, the only thing the more rational part of any movement they wanted to latch on to could accept was the "just asking questions" part. The moment they presented their evidence or actual theories they embarassed themselves and lost any sympathies they might have had.

And can you explain the "failed as a movement, not as a philosophy" bit and the comparison to Aum Shinrikyo? From the wikipedia link it seems A.S. also failed as both a movement and a philosophy. Where do you see them as being successful? And what do you see as the philosophy of 9/11 truthers?

[Scott Sommers]

I just typed in about a page long reply and when I tried to post it, it disappeared. I don`t know how much patience I have to do it again. But here goes...

I haven`t lived among the western peoples of the world for decades. I don`t really have a sense of how your culture has changed in that time. My point is I may just be wrong.

My feeling is that, at it height, 911 Truth was widely accepted in certain elements of the Left. Chomsky talks about this in the video where he calls them creeps and loosers. I can imagine that while few on the Left care anymore about 911 Truth, this is because it lost its appeal and if you talk with them, many would “still be wondering what really happened“.

911 Truth lacked the leadership to make this dangerous, but I know of no other conspiracy theory that has positioned itself so that legitimate mainstream people would ask questions about it. But then, I may be wrong.

Neither Aum nor 911 Truth have anything in common with the Manson Cult - other than stupidity. Both are lead by extremely well-educated people who use their diplomas to hide the falsehood of statements so ridiculous they must know they`re lying. Aum strikes me in many ways as lead in the same way as 911 Truth. Aum is frequently referred to as an elite religion. I have found no reason to believe that typical folowers were anything more than young, marginally-educated working-class Japanese. Its leadership, on the other hand, was extremely well-educated. In fact, they were so uniformly well-educated that it makes me wonder if it was not a resting place for those psychopathic lying scheming cretins that managed to make it through academia to a place where they could speak and be listened to without having to refer to facts about the world. Sound familiar?

[tuc0]

I think you are wrong and vastly overestimate the impact and importance of the TM. Mind that I'm not from the USA either and my perspective on truthers is taken mostly from the internet... and as we know the internet has a tendency to distort and exaggerate information. :)

So let's compare. If we take what you say about Aum as fact we have: a fairly homogenous religious cult of badly educated followers led by a very well educated elite.

And now 9/11 T.R.U.T.H.
- It was always full of fractions who hated each other more than anything
- It never had a leader
- Their alpha dogs couldn't be described as "extremely well educated" with one or two exceptions
- A lot of the more prominent truthers were (and are) very clearly insane

- But most of all: It was mostly an internet phenomenon, fueled by some movies a lot of people saw and believed

What's left nowadays is very fractured and impotent and mostly confined to spamming on youtube. They are no political force. At all. The only thing to worry about is that one of their more unstable members might go out and hurt or kill someone. Again.

So stay cool and enjoy the show. I know I do ;)

[Scott Sommers]

Your point abouy 911 Truth being an Internet-based movemnt is significant. If they're unable to do anything more than set up webpages, they're pretty much finished. Certainly not even one of the hundreds of people I have contacted about 911 Truth could be described as anything other than a moron.

Thanks for the reassurance.

[JihadJane]

Your point abouy 911 Truth being an Internet-based movemnt is significant. If they're unable to do anything more than set up webpages, they're pretty much finished. Certainly not even one of the hundreds of people I have contacted about 911 Truth could be described as anything other than a moron.

Thanks for the reassurance.

What a busy nooby amateur you are!

[Dave Rogers]

What a busy nooby amateur you are!

Yes, in no more than a month he's come to a conclusion that took most of us at least four weeks.

Dave

[JihadJane]

Yes, in no more than a month he's come to a conclusion that took most of us at least four weeks.

Dave

What a clever boy/girl!

[Scott Sommers]

I told you before I'm a professional researcher. It's important for me to find out what's supported by the facts and not just make things up. I need to find out what kind of person would accept as fact things that are not supported by any evidence at all. It's really clear to me now that the lay suspicion is correct and these are people you would keep away from your children.

It's actually been quite disappointing for me. I always found talking with the mentally ill to be very stressful.

[JihadJane]

I told you before I'm a professional researcher. It's important for me to find out what's supported by the facts and not just make things up. I need to find out what kind of person would accept as fact things that are not supported by any evidence at all. It's really clear to me now that the lay suspicion is correct and these are people you would keep away from your children.

It's actually been quite disappointing for me. I always found talking with the mentally ill to be very stressful.


The last sentence of your first paragraph and the whole of your second paragraph negates your claim to be a professional researcher. Your attitude is completely unprofessional. You're a hack researcher.

[Scott Sommers]

I guess I owe you an apology then. I can imagine that talking about 911 Truth is lonely business and all you need is me making remarks about mental disfunction. It must be confusing, as well, that friends and family refuse to talk about the space-based energy beams or the thermite dust that slaughtered so many Americnas. Don't they care?

Talking about this reminds me of the registered sex offender who lives down the street from my sister. He only has one other friend and everyone in the neighborhood believes he's also a registered sex offender. He has trouble getting work and some of the nastier kids yell at him. I should be more understanding of the ways in which mental illness leads to loneliness and isolation.

[abenja1]

I guess I owe you an apology then. I can imagine that talking about 911 Truth is lonely business and all you need is me making remarks about mental disfunction. It must be confusing, as well, that friends and family refuse to talk about the space-based energy beams or the thermite dust that slaughtered so many Americnas. Don't they care?

Talking about this reminds me of the registered sex offender who lives down the street from my sister. He only has one other friend and everyone in the neighborhood believes he's also a registered sex offender. He has trouble getting work and some of the nastier kids yell at him. I should be more understanding of the ways in which mental illness leads to loneliness and isolation.

You need not worry about Jihad Jane. She is an insane lunatic who has called on this forum for the death of debunkers, finds it funny when debunkers are threatened with violence, and always plays childish games when confronted with her crazy remarks.

[Scott Sommers]

Thanks for the caution. I`m not surorised to hear this. It`s pretty much my impression of those still active in the Truther movement.

[CHF]

From what I can gather by looking at the remnants of the Toronto Truth Movement, those left over at this point are basically the people who invested their life in the cause.

Most people who has ever identified themselves as "truthers" were only casual believers. They bought in cuz it was "fun" but never had a whole lot invested. If shown the truth about TM claims they'd say "oh, OK" and would move on with life.

The remaining truthers, meanwhile, have made it their LIFE. Their reading actitivies are entirely TM-based, their circle of friends is made up of fellow truthers, and their very sense of self is tied directly to the success of the "truth" and the feeling that comes with knowing it.

Heck, some have even scared away friends and family with this stuff!

So having invested so much time, effort and emotion, it's hard for them to give it up as nonsense now. It would shatter whatever is left of their soul.

[Scott Sommers]

This is my question and I think I can speak for myself about what it was intended to mean. The question I asked was very clear in it's meaning. If there is any need for elaboration on this it is this, I wanted to know what kind of person people on this forum believe a typical activist working toward promoting understanding of 911 conspiracy would be. The only answers I received until were from those involved in the debunking community. Strangely, none of the believers in these ideas responded to the only question which I have posted for which their response would be appropriate.

The current exchange involving FloydGoethe is rather strange to me. Although I have not read it closely, none of it seems to answer my intended question. I would like to have heard something along these lines: 911 conspiracy theorists are people who care about about truth and justice. They are involved in many other community activities, like caring for the eldery and looking after the homeless. They are respected neighbors and family members. Everyone around them searches out their opinion. I think the reason why no believers in a 911 conspiracy other than FloydGoethe are here and his answer is bizarrely unrelated is tied into the reality of 911 conspiracy and what kind of person still works to promote it.

In my search for an understanding of theories of controlled demolition of WTC, I have watched hundreds of hours of videos. I have corresponded tirelessly with groups on the Net that promote these idea. And one thing that is clear to me is that they, as individuals, they appear uniformally disfunctional. To read Truther decription of their 911 rallies, they are important and powerful events. They are reaching out to the community in meaningful ways. They are well attended. But I have seen videos of actual 911 rallies and spoken with non-Truthers who attended unrelated rallies attended by Truthers. The truth of the Truthers is that no one wants them arond. Their seminal rallies, described as "major" events, are attended by 5 people. I have seen 911 Truthers yelling at pedestrians. I have seen then calling people names. I have been told that they are "disruptive". "obnoxious", "idiots" by people at rallies that members of Truth groups have described as "successful".

My impression now of a 'typical Truther' is that they are not delusion, but they are generally mentally ill. I suspect most suffer from problems like depression, mania, compulsive disorders. And just like drug addicts or the intellectually challenged might end up gathered together because no one else will be their friend, these are people deserted by their friends and family who end up hanging together because under the guise of 911 conspiracy. 911 Truth groups have become disfunctional out-patient programs for those not disturbed enough to be hospitalized. I suspect many of them could benefit from medication. Some have probably been in and out of treatment. Some probably are out-patients who are recieving medication now.

They are a very disturbing lot of people. There is probably a undoubtedly a criminal element who hangs around at the periphery of these groups trying to manipulate more disturbed members. This would be similar to men who hang around with women and children addicted to drugs looking to gain control over them and pimp them out for their own profit. I think it's pretty clear from reports of some of these groups that this is going on under the cover of 911 Truth.

As I have said before, believers in 911 conspiracies are not delusional people. Some seem quite intelligent. But I believe the majority these people are dangerous people and as individuals should be avoided. Fortunately, they are the type of dangerous individual that most of us have been prepared by our parents and schools teachers to detect and avoid. I suppose the single most accurate way to describe what I have seen is that they are creeps.

[Myriad]

As many of you already know, a new member named FloydGoethe posted multiple MA breaches in this thread, including advocacy of violence to others and content that was judged to be "cruel or hateful" toward members. As a result, the thread was moved to Deep Storage and FloydGoethe was banned.

I've restored the thread, basically up to the point where FG began posting. (And a very few exceptions from after that point, that were responding primarily to the OP rather than FG's posts.) All of FG's posts were deleted when he was banned, and most of the subsequent discussion was based on responses to, and quotes of, those posts that no longer exist. So I've left all that behind in Deep Storage. There was no way to disentangle the unacceptable content from other members' replies, even though not every passage quoted from FG was unacceptable content and even though most of the replies did not breach the MA.

Because of the way I moved the remaining posts back, the restored thread will probably show up as a new thread/new posts rather than previously read posts, even if you've read them before.

[Klimax]

Addenum by Klimax:
New thread,but only posts you didn't read will be marked as unread,not all.

[Seymour Butz]

This is my question and I think I can speak for myself about what it was intended to mean. The question I asked was very clear in it's meaning. If there is any need for elaboration on this it is this, I wanted to know what kind of person people on this forum believe a typical activist working toward promoting understanding of 911 conspiracy would be.



IMHO, this is exactly what twoofs are - activists.

Some will be anti-war, and/or anti-Bush, which is fine.

But activism isn't necessarily about any kind of truth. It's about, to some degree, lying to get your political agenda heard. And if facts can be twisted to help them out, then so be it. Their ends justifies their means, in their eyes. So lying or exagerating about 9/11 is fine, as long as they can tie it into ending the Iraq/Afghan wars, and/or getting Bush to be tried for war crimes, etc.

This is well documented. The organizer for some homeless advocacy group in NYC came out years later and admitted that they lied about the number of homeless.

The same could be said for a lot of other causes, I'm sure. Predictions about how extensive AIDS would become is one, the statement that all scientists agree that global warming is all man made is another. Both good causes, but the hyperbole is obvious.

So while some of these causes may indeed be noble ones, they tarnish the cause with their lies, and the creeps that repeat those lies should be exposed for what they are.

[Scott Sommers]

One of the points that came up in FloydGoethe's posts was the activist history of 911 Truthers. Are they in fact genuine activists? This raises the question of what Truth folk were doing prior to their adventures with 911. I don't have a lot of information about this, but I doubt it resembles other more conventional activists, much less anti-war activists. I doubt that none of the currently active 911 folk were members of anti-war groups.

My guess is that most of them were attached to other fringe ideas about the world, such as non-political conspiracy theories, supernatural belief systems, or were in and out of mental health therapy.

Am I right?

[Seymour Butz]

Don't know about the mental health angle.

But they're definitely activists, probably a smattering of what you said and what I'm saying though. Just didn't feel like including the ones that I feel are used by folks that have over-the-top conspiracy views about the NWO, etc, since they're clearly beyond help.

I chose to only include those that have legitimate gripes - anti-war, ant-Bush.

[Scott Sommers]

Could you provide me with more detail, please? No matter how sketchy it is, I'd appreciate a better understanding of this. Who are some of the people you refer to who worked with more legitimate groups and what were these groups?

Please have patience with my inquiry. I have yet to see recent videos of local 911 Truth groups where the participants seemed balanced. More significantly, I have spoken with campaign workers for politicians that Truth videos I have seen claimed supported their position. These people repeatedly described Truthers who had attended their political rallies as "F*** idiots" and other similar descriptives.

Admittedly this experience is very limited and that's why I'm looking for more detailed information. But at this point, my experience is unanimous. 911 conspiracy believers are unbalanced and more legitimate political groups with broad appeal do not want to be associated with them. I'll put this in a stronger form, the individuals who work in these more legitimate groups do not want to be in the physical proximity of members of 911 Truth groups and do not care if they support their agenda or not.

[alienentity]

Here are a couple of posts I recently received on my youtube channel. Needless to say I don't allow these.

Warning, very vulgar.

This one is from GoldenUSAEagle
http://www.youtube.com/user/GoldenUSAEagle

This is FULL OF ******** PLAIN & SIMPLE. SHOW US YOU PIECE OF UN AMERICAN SCUM I JUST WANT YOU TO STICK OUT YOUR ARM LIKE A NICE SHEEP & TAKE YOUR FLYING PIG VACCINE, SO THE EARTH CAN BE A BETTER PLACE. NO MATTER HOW MUCH BS YOU TRY ANYONE WITH THE INELEGANCE OF A 10 YEAR OLD CAN SEE THROUGH IT

This is one from uhlijohn
http://www.youtube.com/user/uhlijohn


His original message (personal comment on my WTC7 video) is immediately below. I replied that I didn't have time to address every issue he brought up. I suggested he go to the JREF forum and ask some questions instead.


'One lie after another in your video claiming to debunk the collapse of WTC 7. NIST was forced to admit that it fell at free-fall only after being confronted at the news conference last fall finally announcing their new "discovery" of how the building came down just like controlled demolition. They called it "thermal expansion", which they claim only affected one structural member.

Then why did all the other members fail at exactly the same time allowing for global collapse in the same manner as controlled demolition, complete with tell-tale explosions and squibs? Something you conveniently omit. Why? Fires raging out of control? No evidence. Only minor damage by debris. The lies go on and on.

Fire fighters and cops telling people to get away from WTC 7 because it was "coming down". How does that work? They say get away the buidling is going to be brought down. How did they know that? Maybe everyone should just leave Manhattan because, gosh, gee, maybe all the buildings on Manhattan may come down and fall on you! After all, it was like magic that brought those WTC buildings down or maybe secret weapons! We just don't know!

How is it that 3 buildings in one day all fall at or near free-fall speed in the manner of controlled demolition complete with explosions on 9/11 when no other building like that has ever collapsed in such a manner in history except those deliberatey destroyed by controlled demolition?

Why did so many bystanders and emergency workers tell of explosions going off in all three buildings numbering in the hundreds, including many reporters? Explain that one. I know: you can't so you deny it. Predictable. Even though we have literally hudreds of hours of video and audio from reporters on the scene talking about secondary explosions going off! How does that work, Bubba? Explain.

Why did FEMA discover intragranular melting of high-strength steel beams from the WTC buildings and sulphadization of steel all consistent with thermite reactions? Normal fires cannot do that, in case you didn't know, Bubba. They looked like pieces of Swiss cheese!

Where did all the molten metal come from reported by numerous firemen and engineers, including the clean up crews from CDI long after 9/11 ? Why the high temperatures? How did that occur. These are questions you refuse to answer. Because to answer them destroys your arguments. That's why.

And now for the grand finale: How is it that someone hiding in a cave in Afghanistan made NORAD stand down on 9/11? Explain that one. You really want us to believe that cock and bull story? The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission publicly state that NORAD was lying to them. They told 3 different stories about how they screwed up that day! And no courts-martial? How does that work?

When a military commander fails and allows an attack to succeed, whether it was negligence or not, he is usually court martialled! Or didn't you know that? Like Admiral Kimmel and Gen. Short at Pearl Harbor. They were both court-martialled. They were responsible, even though they may have been blameless. They still get courts-martial. No courts-martial is a telling sign that there was a cover-up underway. Or are you that naive? Or didn't you know that either? Man, you are a lousy liar, do you know that? Just how naive do you think people are, anyway? Go peddle your papers somehwere else, will you?'

Here is one of his following posts:

I repeat: YOU ARE A *********** TRAITOR! I DON''T LIKE TRAITORS.
ANYONE WHO HAS LOOKED AT ALL THE EVIDENCE ABOUT 9/11 CAN COME AWAY WITH NO OTHER CONCLUSION THAT IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB FROM START TO FINISH.

YOU DENY THE VERY FACTS THAT PROVE IT! LIKE THE ADMITTED - BY NIST NO LESS - FREE-FALL SPEED OF THE COLLAPSES OF ALL THREE BUILDINGS! THIS FACT ALONE PROVES BEYOND ANY DOUBT THAT IT WAS CONTROLLED DEMOLITION.

SO YOU DENY THAT FACT AND LIE YOUR SILLY ASS OFF THINKING YOUR KOOL-AID DRINKING FOLLOWERS AT THE "AMAZING RANDI" MESSAGE BOARD WILL DRINK IT! HA! WHEN WE TAKE THIS COUNTRY BACK I WANT TO SEE YOU PUT ON TRIAL FOR AIDING AND ABETTING TREASON, MY FINE FEATHERED FRIEND!

I WANT TO SEE YOU BEHIND BARS SERVING A LIFE STRETCH AT MARION! YOU GOT THAT? I DON'T LIKE MY RELATIVES OR ANY OTHER AMERICANS BEING MURDERED BY YOUR BANKER FRIENDS SO THEY CAN HAVE THEIR WARS AND POLICE STATE. GOT THAT, BUBBA? GO TO HELL!

I've saved these for posterity.... btw, yesterday's exchanges with FloydGoethe went down a similar path, where he couldn't seem to focus on the points being made, and started getting belligerent. I recall he accused me of lying, but I have no idea what I supposed to have lied about. I asked him to clarify, but he wouldn't.

I also asked him repeatedly to explain how his words were taken out of context, but he wouldn't do that either. In my experiences on youtube, you generally get two responses:
either people can respond intelligently to further questions and discussion, or they can't. The ones that can are not too bad at all, even if they are convinced that 9/11 was an inside job. They still seem to be able to absorb information on some conscious level.

the others? Not open for any discussion. They usually try to flame you and then disappear. I've taken to allowing comments by approval, and that has taken care of 85% of the bad comments, since they know I won't approve them. Saves grief for everyone.

Truthfully I was annoyed that Floyd was able to carry on for hours with his personal attacks. I thought the mods should have stepped in much sooner. The fact that all those posts are gone is a shame in a way, since they documented his behavior very well. Now he can brag that he was banned at JREF for just asking questions or something like that...

[Seymour Butz]

Could you provide me with more detail, please? No matter how sketchy it is, I'd appreciate a better understanding of this. Who are some of the people you refer to who worked with more legitimate groups and what were these groups?



They're easy to spot, IMHO.

Jones, gage, etc. IMHO, they're intelligent enough to know better, but don't care cuz of their politics. Any ends to their means. The "leaders".

I may be wrong about a few, especially CIT, PFFFFT, and others that call for hangings of shills, yada yada. They're clearly nutz.

A few of the posters here, they're usually the ones that stay away from full fledged CT-ville, and stick to politics. They're activists. Hence their occasional slip up and mentioning of their politics.

The crazies out themselves eventually, just give them enough posting time. They'll eventually get around to false flag, kennedy, etc as proof that this was also an inside job. They're the full fledged CTerz. They usually start out sounding somewhat sane in their first posts, but once they start getting called on their lunacy, they eventually de-evolve into slobbering idiots.

The activists stay away from that load of crap, and stick to explosives, thermite, LIHOP, etc. They have legitimate gripes about the wars, Bush, etc, and don't want to tarnish what they're saying with a foray into the CT realm.

[Hokulele]

Truthfully I was annoyed that Floyd was able to carry on for hours with his personal attacks. I thought the mods should have stepped in much sooner. The fact that all those posts are gone is a shame in a way, since they documented his behavior very well. Now he can brag that he was banned at JREF for just asking questions or something like that...


I think part of the problem was that Floyd was posting during an in-between time zones period for the moderating team. The US had mostly gone to bed, and the Europeans hadn't quite woken up yet. I don't believe that there are any Asian/Australian/New Zealand moderators.

To your second point here, I agree, I do think that at least some of the posts should have been kept to document his behavior and the fact that his opinion was allowed (such as the moon claim). However, once he degenerated to advocacy of violence and repeated insults, those should have all been removed as violations of the MA.

[Sam.I.Am]

I thought that was a kinda weird PM. My post was moved from the thread it was originally posted into to the thread it was originally posted to. Had me scratching my head at first until I read the mods post about FloydGoethe's meltdown last night.

[Dave Rogers]

I thought that was a kinda weird PM. My post was moved from the thread it was originally posted into to the thread it was originally posted to. Had me scratching my head at first until I read the mods post about FloydGoethe's meltdown last night.

Yeah, I got one of those too. I just happened to be offline between FG's first and last posts, so I'm left to guesswork to figure out exactly what he got banned for. Though, in the circumstances, I think I can guess near enough.

Dave

[MervinFerd]

One of the points that came up in FloydGoethe's posts was the activist history of 911 Truthers. Are they in fact genuine activists? This raises the question of what Truth folk were doing prior to their adventures with 911. I don't have a lot of information about this, but I doubt it resembles other more conventional activists, much less anti-war activists. I doubt that none of the currently active 911 folk were members of anti-war groups.

My guess is that most of them were attached to other fringe ideas about the world, such as non-political conspiracy theories, supernatural belief systems, or were in and out of mental health therapy.

Am I right?


Mr. Scott,

To understand the current state of Trutherism, you have to know how the thing evolved.

The original 911 CTs were relatively mild and not clearly insane---The usual lists of meaningless coincidences, Paul Thompson's "9/11 Timeline", supposed anomalies in press reports and official documents, "Just Asking Questions". Following the usual CT practice, falsifiable assertions were rare but most of the "evidence" was consistent with some collusion between the US Gov't and bin Laden or Pakistani intelligence. Generally, these theories did not contradict indisputable facts or the laws of physics; they were just based on faulty logic or evidence. The people involved were the same faction of the Left that has long taken Kennedy assassination theories as established fact.

Then a very strange thing happened. I think it is a phenomenon caused by widespread access to the Internet and Google searches. There developed a cottage industry of people mining news stories, videos, and posted official documents for supposed anomalies or contradictions. The theories quickly degenerated into arrant nonsense and then toward clinical insanity. Controlled demolition to thermite, to dustification to mini-nukes to No Planes. And so much more. These theories gradually merged with Right Wing "New World Order" and anti-Semitic theories. Along with various parts of Crank Science--Tesla and Cold Fusion and what not. The Loose Change videos brought in a caucus of college students and 7th graders, but its no longer cool.

At this point, I think Trutherism is just a part of an underground ferment of nutty conspiracist drivel. It's not useful to try to give it a conventional political label. Left wing Flower Children cavort happily with right wing Holocaust denialists and no one feels any pain. Unfortunately, the election of a Black president has driven some of our nuts even crazier and we are seeing a resurrection of violent craziness which overshadows 9/11 CTs

I think the 9/11 CTs -did- have a significant effect on our politics. They made it much more difficult to raise legitimate questions about the Bush administrations competence or about the possible involvement of our allies--Pakistan and Saudi Arabia--in the event.

Just my thoughts.

[DavidJames]

Mr. Scott,

To understand the current state of Trutherism, you have to know how the thing evolved.

The original 911 CTs were relatively mild and not clearly insane---The usual lists of meaningless coincidences, Paul Thompson's "9/11 Timeline", supposed anomalies in press reports and official documents, "Just Asking Questions". Following the usual CT practice, falsifiable assertions were rare but most of the "evidence" was consistent with some collusion between the US Gov't and bin Laden or Pakistani intelligence. Generally, these theories did not contradict indisputable facts or the laws of physics; they were just based on faulty logic or evidence. The people involved were the same faction of the Left that has long taken Kennedy assassination theories as established fact.

Then a very strange thing happened. I think it is a phenomenon caused by widespread access to the Internet and Google searches. There developed a cottage industry of people mining news stories, videos, and posted official documents for supposed anomalies or contradictions. The theories quickly degenerated into arrant nonsense and then toward clinical insanity. Controlled demolition to thermite, to dustification to mini-nukes to No Planes. And so much more. These theories gradually merged with Right Wing "New World Order" and anti-Semitic theories. Along with various parts of Crank Science--Tesla and Cold Fusion and what not. The Loose Change videos brought in a caucus of college students and 7th graders, but its no longer cool.

At this point, I think Trutherism is just a part of an underground ferment of nutty conspiracist drivel. It's not useful to try to give it a conventional political label. Left wing Flower Children cavort happily with right wing Holocaust denialists and no one feels any pain. Unfortunately, the election of a Black president has driven some of our nuts even crazier and we are seeing a resurrection of violent craziness which overshadows 9/11 CTs

I think the 9/11 CTs -did- have a significant effect on our politics. They made it much more difficult to raise legitimate questions about the Bush administrations competence or about the possible involvement of our allies--Pakistan and Saudi Arabia--in the event.

Just my thoughts.Good post welcome out of lurk mode :).

I think the part I put in italics is especially true. I find some people seem to want to put political labels on the CTists to help support their own political bias. I've always felt politics was just a manifestation of their underlying CT tendencies.

[Justin39640]

I think the 9/11 CTs -did- have a significant effect on our politics. They made it much more difficult to raise legitimate questions about the Bush administrations competence or about the possible involvement of our allies--Pakistan and Saudi Arabia--in the event.


i couldnt agree more

truthers just muddy the waters and bog everything down

[MervinFerd]

Thanks for the welcome. I struggled with the Truthers over at Democratic Underground Dungeon for a long time, until I realized I was arguing with 7th graders who were flunking Gym.


Good post welcome out of lurk mode :).

I find some people seem to want to put political labels on the CTists to help support their own political bias. I've always felt politics was just a manifestation of their underlying CT tendencies.


Yeah. Fundamentalism and CTism and political absolutism are, first, mental diseases or defects. People attach themselves to whatever cult comes along first.

This has new relevance with the events of this August. We seem unable to conduct a public debate on an important topic because of the nuts shouting nonsense conspiracy theories. It takes only a few people to disrupt a meeting.

Doesn't help that mainstream, monied, interests are encouraging them.

[Stellafane]

...7th graders who were flunking Gym.

What a perfect description of Truthers! I'll be sure to steal it, perhaps adding a small addendum: "7th graders who were flunking Gym -- due to lack of intelligence." The ultimate losers!

[CHF]

At this point, I think Trutherism is just a part of an underground ferment of nutty conspiracist drivel. It's not useful to try to give it a conventional political label. Left wing Flower Children cavort happily with right wing Holocaust denialists and no one feels any pain.

Excellent post!

It is indeed tough to file 911 trutherism under "left" or "right." The TM seems to exist in a weird place where the extremes of both spectrums have gone so far out that they've actually converged.

I suppose it could be said that insanity knows no political leaning.

A lot of truthers these days seem to be people who are drawn to all sorts of nonsense - hense the constant overlaps between the TM and holocaust denial, NWO global warming scams, vaccine conspiracies etc.

[TexasJack]

Excellent post!

It is indeed tough to file 911 trutherism under "left" or "right." The TM seems to exist in a weird place where the extremes of both spectrums have gone so far out that they've actually converged.

I suppose it could be said that insanity knows no political leaning.

A lot of truthers these days seem to be people who are drawn to all sorts of nonsense - hense the constant overlaps between the TM and holocaust denial, NWO global warming scams, vaccine conspiracies etc.

Yes, if you think of the political spectrum as a circle, with centrists at the top of the circle, truthers meet at the bottom of the circle, it doesn't matter if if go left or right to get to the bottom.

[Scott Sommers]

They're easy to spot, IMHO.

Jones, gage, etc. IMHO, they're intelligent enough to know better, but don't care cuz of their politics. Any ends to their means. The "leaders".

I may be wrong about a few, especially CIT, PFFFFT, and others that call for hangings of shills, yada yada. They're clearly nutz.

A few of the posters here, they're usually the ones that stay away from full fledged CT-ville, and stick to politics. They're activists. Hence their occasional slip up and mentioning of their politics.

The crazies out themselves eventually, just give them enough posting time. They'll eventually get around to false flag, kennedy, etc as proof that this was also an inside job. They're the full fledged CTerz. They usually start out sounding somewhat sane in their first posts, but once they start getting called on their lunacy, they eventually de-evolve into slobbering idiots.

The activists stay away from that load of crap, and stick to explosives, thermite, LIHOP, etc. They have legitimate gripes about the wars, Bush, etc, and don't want to tarnish what they're saying with a foray into the CT realm.

I'm confused by this. Why would you think Gage, etc would be involved in other authentic social activities? There's no reason I've seen to believe this. There is extensive discussion of Steven Jones on the Internet from his work on cold fusion. There is no mention of his role as a political actitivist.

You seem to be implying there's some difference between 'the leadership' of 911 conspiracy theories and 'the crazies' who just believe what the leadership has to say. The only major difference I can see is that Steven Jones must be aware that he's making up facts and evidence. Some manic depressive in Toronto can hardly be blamed for believing his crap.

So you mean there is no reason to believe the 911 Truth Movement is anything other than a handful of properly trained scientists who make things up and some mentally disturbed folks who believe in all kinds of strange ideas. That's kind of what I figured.