If the US had taken the advice of some people here...

[Skeptic]

1). Saddam Hussein would still be butchering Iraqis by the thousands, and/or

2). Saddam Hussein would emerge from hiding and declare "victory over the American infidel" after the US, had "just got up and left".

3). The truth about what happened to the WMDs, which would no doubt come out in a trial of Saddam, would remain unknown.

But don't except any admission of misake from THAT crowd. They're right, everybody else is wrong, that's that.

[jj]

Originally posted by Skeptic
1). Saddam Hussein would still be butchering Iraqis by the thousands, and/or

2). Saddam Hussein would emerge from hiding and declare "victory over the American infidel" after the US, had "just got up and left".

3). The truth about what happened to the WMDs, which would no doubt come out in a trial of Saddam, would remain unknown.

But don't except any admission of misake from THAT crowd. They're right, everybody else is wrong, that's that.

So, who are the people whose advice you're talking about?

Huzington? (Now THAT guy is trippin')

[Tmy]

You know you couldve just posted "Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah."


What do mean about "some peoples" advice? People who wanted more UN post war?

Lets say that happend. I really dont think that Saddam gets off scottfree just cause baby blue helmets were around.

As far for WMD, that other crowd has being crowing about the WMD since day one. AT what point will they say "OK there arent any.".

[DanishDynamite]

Cool! Psychic predictions, courtesy of our very own Psychic Paranoid, (PP among friends).

Skeptic:1). Saddam Hussein would still be butchering Iraqis by the thousands, and/orWhy would you think so, aside from your ability to see the future?
2). Saddam Hussein would emerge from hiding and declare "victory over the American infidel" after the US, had "just got up and left". Who recommended that the US should "get up and leave" once they had demolished the existing power structure?
3). The truth about what happened to the WMDs, which would no doubt come out in a trial of Saddam, would remain unknown.Once again, aside from your self-delusion that you can see the future, why would you think there is any "truth to come out", except that there are no WMD?
But don't except any admission of misake from THAT crowd. They're right, everybody else is wrong, that's that. But don't expect any admission of mistake from the Psychic. He's right, everybody else is wrong, that's that.

[Agammamon]

1) Yeah, quite possibly until the Iraqi's got around to doing something about their problem.

2) Definately not a good outcome, but it could have been avoided if we didn't go in in the first place (see above).

3) You mean you'll take the word of Saddam over that of both the UN and US weapons inspectors, pre and post-war who didn't find anything?

[Zero]

This is what happens when people create their arguments out of thin air: they also feel justified in creating the opinions of those opposed to them out of thin air, instead of actually listening to what the other sides of the issue are. It is a case of 'We'll tell you what we think, and then we'll tell you what you think."

For instance, people who opposed Bush's unilateral approach were not Anti-American, liberal Democrat Saddam supporters. In truth, many of us thought that he should have followed his father's lead in coalition-building(GWB's dad was also a Republican, you know).

[TillEulenspiegel]

Agreed that's not even a straw man it's a grasping at straws man.

Ah listien to that Kakaphoney- the chorus of the self-convinced.

[crackmonkey]

It boggles my mind that Bush is being criticized for not coalition-building. He DID build a coalition. Unfortunately, many of our erstwhile allies decided against joining our coalition, so we sought others. And found them.
I think the critics are actually saying that they prefer the anti-coalition nations over the actual participants in the coalition... the nations that agreed with Bush are somehow discounted as not being a true coalition, yet the nations that had reason to continue to do business with Saddam are seen as being principled for opposing the war.
Is it Bush's fault that others declined to join his coalition? Is it his fault that the French pulled out all the stops to undercut Bush?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
It boggles my mind that Bush is being criticized for not coalition-building. He DID build a coalition. Unfortunately, many of our erstwhile allies decided against joining our coalition, so we sought others. And found them.
I think the critics are actually saying that they prefer the anti-coalition nations over the actual participants in the coalition... the nations that agreed with Bush are somehow discounted as not being a true coalition, yet the nations that had reason to continue to do business with Saddam are seen as being principled for opposing the war.
Is it Bush's fault that others declined to join his coalition? Is it his fault that the French pulled out all the stops to undercut Bush?

Maybe some people are worried that if idiots out there, like Bush, start wars for no real reason other than, 'they might attack us one day in the unforseeable future,' other countries will start doing exactly the same thing.

How long, for example, before China brings the hammer down on Taiwan because of its 'imminent terrorist threat'?

[Skeptic]

Maybe some people are worried that if idiots out there, like Bush,

Hey, "Mr. Manifesto", why have you mysteriously disappeared from the thread about "USA causing bloodbath in Afghanistan" after it was discovered you are a high school student?

[JAR]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Maybe some people are worried that if idiots out there, like Bush, start wars for no real reason other than, 'they might attack us one day in the unforseeable future,' other countries will start doing exactly the same thing.

How long, for example, before China brings the hammer down on Taiwan because of its 'imminent terrorist threat'?
China's claim that Taiwan is part of China shows that China wants to bring the hammer down on Taiwan but can't because it doesn't have the capabilities to.

[Edited to add: I, personally, interpret China's claim that Taiwan is part of China to mean that China is still at war with Taiwan.]

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Maybe some people are worried that if idiots out there, like Bush,

Hey, "Mr. Manifesto", why have you mysteriously disappeared from the thread about "USA causing bloodbath in Afghanistan" after it was discovered you are a high school student?
Was it your psychic abilities that discovered this or were you tipped off by another psychic? Would it be appropriate to report that I have had a vision that Manifesto is actually a transexual street prostitute, this is a much more interesting vision than yours.......Or maybe you just find it hard to believe that people just get bored with your bigoted rants and move on to another thread?

I think you should just go back to being the judge of what is good and evil in the world, you are so much more suited to simple repetative tasks.

[boomer6]

I look at it like this:

There once was a police officer named Dave. Dave’s house was broken into every two to three years. The last time Dave’s house was broken into and robbed, the “bad guy” killed his daughter. So…. Dave decided to start a neighborhood watch program and go out and find these robbing thugs. He decided that he had enough and was going to do anything in his power to stop it. There was a problem though; some neighbors did not want to participate in the neighbor hood watch program. These “neighbors” did not want to get involved. “Hell, their house had not been robbed!”, yet. They told Dave, “Just call the police, they will solve this problem.” Dave knew better then that. Dave knew that the police’s hands are really tied up until a person actually commits a crime. After the crime has been committed, then you call the police and then they come and fill out the paperwork. But by that time, it is just too late. The crime has been committed and there is a “victim”. So.. Dave went out to find these “Bad People” and clean up his neighborhood. While looking for the criminal who broke into his house he found all types of criminal activity. He found drug dealers, pimp, thugs, drug user, thieves, murderers and rapist. He attacked all, slapped handcuffs on them and even shot a few. Weeks later, after the neighborhood was somewhat cleaner, some of his irate neighbors came out and demanded an explanation. “Why are you doing this?” “Why are you messing with these people?” “That drug dealer and I go way back, he comes into my store and buys 100 dollars or more of groceries every week.” “That prostitute gives me 150 Dollars of food stamps in exchange for 3 cartons of cigarettes.” “That drug addict you shot last night, he was a good boy. He would not have pulled the trigger. He was only playing. I mean DAMN, now who am I going to get to mow my yard for 2 dollars every week.” Hell, what gives you the right?” “I mean, you should have just tried to get to know them.” “If they knew you and liked you, maybe they might have left your house alone.” “Just what gives you the right?” Dave was shocked that the people he thought were somewhat normal were really just as bad as the criminals. The “fence-sitters”, who can’t make up their own mind and are always trying to appease both sides, where now questioning him. Dave simple told them, this is my house and my neighborhood. I WILL do what I have to do to protect what is mine. His neighbors responded “what about what we what, what about our rights?” Dave looked at them and told them, “Your rights end, where my rights begin! If you don’t like it, move to another neighborhood”

boomer

[Tricky]

Boomer, I haven't seen you post much, so I can't tell if this is tongue-in-cheek or not. I certainly hope you are not suggesting that it is okay for every citizen to act as judge, jury and executioner for everything they find that is bad.

If so, then you would have to agree that the neighbors would be perfectly within their rights to murder "Dave" because he was, by their definition, bad.

[boomer6]

Originally posted by Tricky
Boomer, I haven't seen you post much, so I can't tell if this is tongue-in-cheek or not. I certainly hope you are not suggesting that it is okay for every citizen to act as judge, jury and executioner for everything they find that is bad.

If so, then you would have to agree that the neighbors would be perfectly within their rights to murder "Dave" because he was, by their definition, bad.


sort of tongue-in-cheek.

boomer

[Troll]

Originally posted by DanishDynamite
Cool! Psychic predictions, courtesy of our very own Psychic Paranoid, (PP among friends).

Skeptic:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1). Saddam Hussein would still be butchering Iraqis by the thousands, and/or
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why would you think so, aside from your ability to see the future?

quote:

Uh, past track record ? Law of averages?

[Tricky]

Originally posted by boomer6
sort of tongue-in-cheek.

Okay, then it was sort of humorous.

[Skeptic]

Was it your psychic abilities that discovered this or were you tipped off by another psychic?

Actually, he admitted it here:

I'm planning on studying political history in 2004, but as of this moment I haven't even seen the inside of a university.

Which was a reply to the claim by Ralph (IIRC) that he probably is a political science major in college. In the context, it's clear the meaning is that he will start studying as a freshman in 2004, e.g., he's a high school senior now (or perhaps just finished with school). No "psychic ability" required.

Oh, and to answer your question about how I know what the idf was doing when I'm not psychic, when AUP claims someting else happened: to spell it out, the reason is simple. I am an idf veteran, I know the area, I know the firing orders troops are given, I fought in similar conditions, and so on. That alone is not enough, of course, to know exactly what happened in every situation, but it IS enough to a). have an idea what went on, b). to know what could NOT have happened. AUP's "interpretation" is of that "could not possibly have happened" sort, since it assumes an idf with commands and SOPs that exist only in his imagination.

Really, "fool", it seems that your method of argument when someone makes a claim you disagree with is to say "How do you know??? Are you psychic???". This is about as relevant an "argument" as the creationists' "reply" of "How do you know??? Were you there???" to claims the world is older than 6000 years. The idea of this diversion is to make it seem both my and AUP's opinions about the idf are equally valid because neither of us are psychic, just like the creationist's idea is to make it seem as if his and the evolutionist's claims are equally valid because neither were present at the creation. Nice diversion, but without any merit.

P.S.

So that there's no misunderstanding: I am not claiming to be some amazing expert about the idf just because I served there. The point is, that AUP's and Manifesto's claims about the armed forces are SO silly, ANYBODY who has any experience at all with an army instantly sees the silliness.

[JAR]

Skeptic, Mr Manifesto said that here: http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32033&perpage=40&pagenumber=2

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Skeptic

Actually, he admitted it here:

He did no such thing, he may very well be a high school student, He could also be a retired chicken strangler looking to improve his educatin in the twilight of his life, I may be a 300 pound female wrestler and you may be Michael Jackson......sheesh, lets limit our interactions to worrying about what we say eh? Rather than who we may or may not be in real life


Which was a reply to the claim by Ralph (IIRC) that he probably is a political science major in college. In the context, it's clear the meaning is that he will start studying as a freshman in 2004, e.g., he's a high school senior now (or perhaps just finished with school). No "psychic ability" required.

Ok I'll concede you may have been clutching at straws rather than using psychic ability.



Oh, and to answer your question about how I know what the idf was doing when I'm not psychic, when AUP claims someting else happened: to spell it out, the reason is simple. I am an idf veteran, I know the area, I know the firing orders troops are given, I fought in similar conditions, and so on. That alone is not enough, of course, to know exactly what happened in every situation, but it IS enough to a). have an idea what went on, b). to know what could NOT have happened. AUP's "interpretation" is of that "could not possibly have happened" sort, since it assumes an idf with commands and SOPs that exist only in his imagination.

SOPs? What a laugh.... What army has "shoot civilians" in its SOPs? I'll tell you.....None. So it never happens. If its not in SOPs it doesn't happen. Yea Whatever

The only true thing you have said here is that you don't know what happens when you are not there.....You can only go on what is available to everyone else, information. Maybe you should look harder before you just decide that it must have been just like in the good old days...




Really, "fool", it seems that your method of argument when someone makes a claim you disagree with is to say "How do you know??? Are you psychic???".

Easily fixed....just tell me how you know what happens somewhere where you are not when you site no other sources of information besides "I know that could not have happened"



This is about as relevant an "argument" as the creationists' "reply" of "How do you know??? Were you there???" to claims the world is older than 6000 years. The idea of this diversion is to make it seem both my and AUP's opinions about the idf are equally valid because neither of us are psychic, just like the creationist's idea is to make it seem as if his and the evolutionist's claims are equally valid because neither were present at the creation. Nice diversion, but without any merit.

what are you going on about? If I'm arguing about creationism I'll site evidence other than "I know better than you".....



P.S.

So that there's no misunderstanding: I am not claiming to be some amazing expert about the idf just because I served there. The point is, that AUP's and Manifesto's claims about the armed forces are SO silly, ANYBODY who has any experience at all with an army instantly sees the silliness.
I've had some limited experience as an infantryman in the Australian Army and if you are telling me that my exeriences must mean I know more about what happened or is happening in the middle east now then maybe I should apply for the million.

appeal to Authority, and a very weak appeal too.

[Zero]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
It boggles my mind that Bush is being criticized for not coalition-building. He DID build a coalition. Unfortunately, many of our erstwhile allies decided against joining our coalition, so we sought others. And found them.
I think the critics are actually saying that they prefer the anti-coalition nations over the actual participants in the coalition... the nations that agreed with Bush are somehow discounted as not being a true coalition, yet the nations that had reason to continue to do business with Saddam are seen as being principled for opposing the war.
Is it Bush's fault that others declined to join his coalition? Is it his fault that the French pulled out all the stops to undercut Bush? That was a coalition? LMAO!! Let's say you and I are going to put together a football team. I enlist a couple of local college players, some older ex-players, and the bouncers at the local bar; you enlist one football player, the chess club, and your grandma. Which one of us has put together an actual football team?

Look at the numbers: !40,000 U.S. troops, 15,000 British troops, and a couple of hundered troops total from the other 50+ countries in this so-called 'coalition'.

[Zero]

Originally posted by boomer6
I look at it like this:

There once was a police officer named Dave. *snip*

boomer Why don't you tell it so that it matches...Dave and his fellow cops bust down the door, guns blazing, and kill some retired couple who are watching American Idol, because they got the wrong address. That would be more like it, don't you think?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Was it your psychic abilities that discovered this or were you tipped off by another psychic?

Actually, he admitted it here:



Which was a reply to the claim by Ralph (IIRC) that he probably is a political science major in college. In the context, it's clear the meaning is that he will start studying as a freshman in 2004, e.g., he's a high school senior now (or perhaps just finished with school). No "psychic ability" required.

Look at this poor thing. All of his hopes for rebuffing my witty ripostes lie with my being a high-school kid.

Playing 'what are you like in real life' is a sucker's game, Septic. After all, who are you in real life? Are you really from Israel, or are you just some sick sad-case pretending to be Israeli to get support from oddballs like Cleopatra?

You are really Israeli? Prove it.

You say you were in the IDF? Sounds like chickenhawk bullsh!t to me. Prove it. I think you just learned where the 'forward' and 'reverse' gears are on a bulldozer and felt that was enough for your online ID.

How old are you anyway? Don't lie to me. I reckon you're 13, because... well... you sound like a 13 year-old to me. Attach a photo of yourself holding your birth certificate and today's paper.

Unless you prove all of the above, I will assume that you are a pre-pube who hasn't even seen his bar mitzvah, let alone serve in the IDF.

Read this post a few times. It should eventually sink in how stupid ID games are.

[The Don]

Of course, "If the US had taken the advice of some people here......"

"...and there's a series of bombings in the United States carried out by hard core Islamis fundamentalists who are using the US led coalition's invasion of Iraq as a rallying call........ Those innocent US citizens may not have had to die"

OR

"... and US troops are still in Iraq, dying at the rate of 2 a day in five years time........... 3500 young Americans, the flower of youth and their future would not have died 7,000 miles away from home"

OR

"...... and inter-factional fighting explodes in Iraq with a simliar casualty rate as in Croatia/Serbia/FYR Macedonia. Iraqis would not have to look back at the "good old days" when they only died in their thousands rather than tens or hundreds of thousands"

OR

"...... an opressive Islamist fundamentalist cadre takes over the fledgling Iraqi parliament, opressing human rights, stirring up trouble in Palestine. The US will not have had to do it all over again"

OR

"....... it really does turn out fine, a moderate democracy is established in 1-2-3 years in Iraq which forms the model for the spread of democracy throughout the Middle East. They'd be kicking themselves"


See, we don't know how things are going to work themselves out. For many years the former Yugoslavia was an absolute mess, then it was OK-ish, now its a little bit of a mess.

Russia was a disaster, then it was OK, then it was a disaster again, then it was OK for a bit and now it looks like Putin can do whatever he wants in what is effectively a one-party state.

There are too many possible outcomes and too many forks in the road to be proclaiming victory

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Was it your psychic abilities that discovered this or were you tipped off by another psychic?

Actually, he admitted it here:



Which was a reply to the claim by Ralph (IIRC) that he probably is a political science major in college. In the context, it's clear the meaning is that he will start studying as a freshman in 2004, e.g., he's a high school senior now (or perhaps just finished with school). No "psychic ability" required.

Oh, and to answer your question about how I know what the idf was doing when I'm not psychic, when AUP claims someting else happened: to spell it out, the reason is simple. I am an idf veteran, I know the area, I know the firing orders troops are given, I fought in similar conditions, and so on. That alone is not enough, of course, to know exactly what happened in every situation, but it IS enough to a). have an idea what went on, b). to know what could NOT have happened. AUP's "interpretation" is of that "could not possibly have happened" sort, since it assumes an idf with commands and SOPs that exist only in his imagination.

Really, "fool", it seems that your method of argument when someone makes a claim you disagree with is to say "How do you know??? Are you psychic???". This is about as relevant an "argument" as the creationists' "reply" of "How do you know??? Were you there???" to claims the world is older than 6000 years. The idea of this diversion is to make it seem both my and AUP's opinions about the idf are equally valid because neither of us are psychic, just like the creationist's idea is to make it seem as if his and the evolutionist's claims are equally valid because neither were present at the creation. Nice diversion, but without any merit.

P.S.

So that there's no misunderstanding: I am not claiming to be some amazing expert about the idf just because I served there. The point is, that AUP's and Manifesto's claims about the armed forces are SO silly, ANYBODY who has any experience at all with an army instantly sees the silliness.

Skeptic

your moniker is just as laughable as Americans'.

Your idealised attitude of the modern army acting like a bunch of filing clerks processing a pile of paperwork is laughable. The more open conflict in Iraq, compared to Palestine where interloopers are discouraged or shot, has already shown that civilians have been shot for no reason, prisoners have been treated against the rules, offices don't know how to navigate and make stupid battle decisions, A10's (Aghanistan) are used to shoot at an abandoned satellite phone, money is looted, valuable sites are unguarded, troops suicide. The chaos and anarchy of war is alive and strong. Don't kid yourself, or us, that it is anything but.

You have already told us you drove a bulldozer for the IDF. Why don't you tell us what you did with it.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Zero
That was a coalition? LMAO!!
co·a·li·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-lshn)
n.
An alliance, especially a temporary one, of people, factions, parties, or nations.
A combination into one body; a union.

So yes, that indeed IS a coalition. It is indeed regrettable that the inner city public school system you emerged from did not properly teach you to have a vocabulary.


Let's say you and I are going to put together a football team. I enlist a couple of local college players, some older ex-players, and the bouncers at the local bar; you enlist one football player, the chess club, and your grandma. Which one of us has put together an actual football team?

Considering that my one football player, the chess club, and grandma have just pulled the captain of your football team out of a hole in the turf and kicked his ass.....

I can see you are a simple person....so I'll put this in a simple way In the words of an infamous Interior Secretary: "I have a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple. And we have talent." :D The stat that matters most is the one up on the scoreboard. Our coalition,...such as it was, has led the free world. We rock.

Look at the numbers: !40,000 U.S. troops, 15,000 British troops, and a couple of hundered troops total from the other 50+ countries in this so-called 'coalition'.

Please see again the definition of the word coalition. Educate yourself.

-z

[Crossbow]

Originally posted by Skeptic
1). Saddam Hussein would still be butchering Iraqis by the thousands, and/or

2). Saddam Hussein would emerge from hiding and declare "victory over the American infidel" after the US, had "just got up and left".

3). The truth about what happened to the WMDs, which would no doubt come out in a trial of Saddam, would remain unknown.

But don't except any admission of misake from THAT crowd. They're right, everybody else is wrong, that's that.

I would appreciate that first humanitarian argument more if those who promoted these points actually believed in them.

The USA has never really cared how any of the Middle Eastern governments kept their power provided they kept the oil flowing at a reasonable cost and did not do too much to disturb Israel.

The same goes for Iraq. When Iraq was a major oil supplier which was fighting Iran, and was much easier to deal with than Saudi Arabia, then the USA politely left unsaid any qualms about their poor human rights record and even supported their war with Iran. And, I expect that this same sort of thing will happen with the next Iraqi government; the USA will not care too much about the internal details provided the government is stable, they keep the oil flowing, control their militant Shiite factions, and not engage in too much anti-Israel work.

[Nie Trink Wasser]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Hey, "Mr. Manifesto", why have you mysteriously disappeared from the thread about "USA causing bloodbath in Afghanistan" after it was discovered you are a high school student? [/B]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

perfect !

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


Skeptic

your moniker is just as laughable as Americans'.

Your idealised attitude of the modern army acting like a bunch of filing clerks processing a pile of paperwork is laughable. The more open conflict in Iraq, compared to Palestine where interloopers are discouraged or shot, has already shown that civilians have been shot for no reason, prisoners have been treated against the rules, offices don't know how to navigate and make stupid battle decisions, A10's (Aghanistan) are used to shoot at an abandoned satellite phone, money is looted, valuable sites are unguarded, troops suicide. The chaos and anarchy of war is alive and strong. Don't kid yourself, or us, that it is anything but.

You have already told us you drove a bulldozer for the IDF. Why don't you tell us what you did with it.


AUP,

Hell man, I can hardly imagine the screed you would write if we were really losing the WOT! Thank EdGod that your insane perspective is countered by tangible success in Iraq. Did you not see the vain and imperious President of Iraq emerging from the mud hole like a human "Yertle the Turtle":

On the far-away island of Sala-ma-Sond,
Yertle the Turtle was king of the pond.
A nice little pond. It was clean. It was neat.
The water was warm. There was plenty to eat.
The turtles had everything turtles might need.
And they were all happy. Quite happy indeed.

They were... untill Yertle, the king of them all,
Decided the kingdom he ruled was too small.
"I'm ruler", said Yertle, "of all that I see.
But I don't see enough. That's the trouble with me.
With this stone for a throne, I look down on my pond
But I cannot look down on the places beyond.
This throne that I sit on is too, too low down.
It ought to be higher!" he said with a frown.
"If I could sit high, how much greater I'd be!
What a king! I'd be ruler of all that I see!"

So Yertle, the Turtle King, lifted his hand
And Yertle, the Turtle King, gave a command.
He ordered nine turtles to swim to his stone
And, using these turtles, he built a new throne.
He made each turtle stand on another one's back
And he piled them all up in a nine-turtle stack.
And then Yertle climbed up. He sat down on the pile.
What a wonderful view! He could see 'most a mile!
"All mine!" Yertle cried. "Oh, the things I now rule!
I'm the king of a cow! And I'm the king of a mule!
I'm the king of a house! And, what's more, beyond that
I'm the king of a blueberry bush and a cat!
I'm Yertle the Turtle! Oh, marvelous me!
For I am the ruler of all that I see!"

And all through the morning, he sat up there high
Saying over and over, "A great king am I!"
Until 'long about noon. Then he heard a faint sigh.
"What's that?" snapped the king
And he looked down the stack.
And he saw, at the bottom, a turtle named Mack.
Just a part of his throne. And this plain little turtle
Looked up and he said, "Beg your pardon, King Yertle.
I've pains in my back and my shoulders and knees.
How long must we stand here, Your Majesty, please?"
"SILENCE!" the King of the Turtles barked back.
"I'm king, and you're only a turtle named Mack."
"You stay in your place while I sit here and rule.
I'm the king of a cow! And I'm the king of a mule!
I'm the king of a house! And a bush! And a cat!
But that isn't all. I'll do better than that!

My throne shall be higher!" his royal voice thundered,
"So pile up more turtles! I want 'bout two hundred!"
"Turtles! More turtles!" he bellowed and brayed.
And the turtles 'way down in the pond were afraid.
They trembled. They shook. But they came. They obeyed.
From all over the pond, they came swimming by dozens.
Whole families of turtles, with uncles and cousins.
And all of them stepped on the head of poor Mack.
One after another, they climbed up the stack.
Then Yertle the Turtle was perched up so high,
He could see fourty miles from his throne in the sky!
"Hooray!" shouted Yertle. "I'm the king of the trees!
I'm king of the birds! And I'm king of the bees!
I'm king of the butterflies! King of the air!
Ah, me! What a throne! What a wonderful chair!
I'm Yertle the Turtle! Oh, marvelous me!
For I am the ruler of all that I see!"

Then again, from below, in the great heavy stack,
Came a groan from that plain little turtle named Mack.
"Your Majesty, please... I don't like to complain,
But down here below, we are feeling great pain.
I know, up on top you are seeing great sights,
But down here at the bottom we, too, should have rights.
We turtles can't stand it. Our shells will all crack!
Besides, we need food. We are starving!" groaned Mack.

"You hush up your mouth!" howled the mighty King Yertle.
"You've no right to talk to the world's highest turtle.
I rule from the clouds! Over land! Over sea!
There's nothing, no, NOTHING, that's higher than me!"

But, while he was shouting, he saw with suprise
That the moon of the evening was starting to rise
Up over his head in the darkening skies.
"What's THAT?" snorted Yertle. "Say, what IS that thing
That dares to be higher than Yertle the King?
I shall not allow it! I'll go higher still!
I'll build my throne higher! I can and I will!
I'll call some more turtles. I'll stack 'em to heaven!
I need 'bout five thousand, six hundred and seven!"

But, as Yertle, the Turtle King, lifted his hand
And started to order and give the command,
That plain little turtle below in the stack,
That plain little turtle whose name was just Mack,
Decided he'd taken enough. And he had.
And that plain little lad got a bit mad.
And that plain little Mack did a plain little thing.
He burped!
And his burp shook the throne of the king!

And Yertle the Turtle, the king of the trees,
The king of the air and the birds and the bees,
The king of a house and a cow and a mule...
Well, that was the end of the Turtle King's rule!
For Yertle, the King of all Sala-ma-Sond,
Fell off his high throne and fell Plunk! in the pond!

And tosay the great Yertle, that Marvelous he,
Is King of the Mud. That is all he can see.
And the turtles, of course... all the turtles are free
As turtles and, maybe, all creatures should be.


OTOH,
Our president has shown himself to be a strong leader. To successfully build a coalition in the face of strong European opposition. A coalition that routed the Taliban and Al Qaida in Afghanistan, and then invaded Iraq and captured Saddam...all while the leftists worldwide breathlessly watched and hoped that Peter Arnett would report the "truth" that we were bogged down. Or the "truth" that we would kill a million Afghan civilians. Or the "truth" that we would lose 3,000 soldiers capturing Baghdad.

Now they either nit pick about tactics as AUP does, or they bandy about that favorite term "quagmire".....but in reality nothing gives them more pleasure than to talk about every US soldier killed in the line of duty.

But at least AUP is consistent, unlike others who post here. The words of praise about the capture of Saddam ring hollow coming from those who would have had us do nothing against Iraq. At least AUP doesn't bother. His pessimism isn't pessimism at all... he's merely an ideological enemy of the US. His lies have been consigned, one by one, to a hole in the dirt. Just like his hero.

-z

[Skeptic]

He did no such thing, he may very well be a high school student, He could also be a retired chicken strangler looking to improve his educatin

Could be; however: 1). 98% of those who claim they'll enter university next year ARE high school students; 2). If "Mr. Manifesto" was one of the exceptions, he would have angrily denied the claim he is a high school student, instead of suddenly "disappearing" from the thread.

SOPs? What a laugh.... What army has "shoot civilians" in its SOPs?

Most armies do; for example, those shot by the US army recently in Iraq were, tehcnically, civilians. If the civilian is attacking you, if the civilian is part of a mob, if the civilian is a suicide bomber... there are a dozen situations when SOP calls for shooting civilians.

Of course, there are other situations when civilians can get hurt: if your target is hiding among them, if there are stray bullets, etc. Again, I could name a dozen such situations, off the top of my head.

What the SOP does not call for is to kill civilians out of sadistic pleasure. But this--I can assure you from my experience--is NOT what happened; that's merely AUP's "interpretation" of the situation, based--again--on a fantasy-land view of the idf that exists only in his imagination. The whole "evil israeli army killing innocent civilians for no reason" is not part of the SOP because it doesn't exist.

Really, "Fool", do I have to spell out EVERYTHING for you?

[Skeptic]

The chaos and anarchy of war is alive and strong. Don't kid yourself, or us, that it is anything but.

(sigh)

AUP, for someone who--again--has never even been in the army, let alone a war, you sure think you know a lot about its "anarchy and chaos" and how strong it is.

But you don't know a damn thing.

I could explain why... but, again, you won't believe me, because you have a "view" of what war is "really like", despite never even seeing a military base on the inside--let alone a war. Everybody else--war veterans, generals, the high command, etc. included, of course--are just "deluding themselves".

"Poor people", you smirk to yourself, as generals on television explain the military situations in terms you don't understand. "Don't they KNOW they're deluding themselves and that war is chaos and hell? Why, all the fictional movies I'VE seen about war are VERY CLEAR on this point! If only I was nominated to the high command..."

Got it about right, AUP?

The truth, however, is that nobody cares who you think is "deluded" here, any more than anybody cares what creationists claim about how evolution is "in crisis". You just don't know what you're talking about, that's all.

[Mr Manifesto]

Great poem, rik! Did you write it yourself? YOU DIDN'T??? Better cite it, then, don't you think?

Edit to add: Looks like it might be too late for you to edit it yourself. I've reported it to the mods: there's a bit of heat in the forums over copyright at the moment, no sense in making it worse. Next time always include citations and/or links with works you are quoting. :teacher:

Hey... I'm having some kind of psychic flash... I can see... A septic tank, overflowing, spraying crap in the air like a geyser... what does it all mean?

[Skeptic]

How's high school, "Mr. Manifesto"? Finals getting you down?

[Zero]

Originally posted by rikzilla

co·a·li·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (k-lshn)
n.
An alliance, especially a temporary one, of people, factions, parties, or nations.
A combination into one body; a union.

So yes, that indeed IS a coalition. It is indeed regrettable that the inner city public school system you emerged from did not properly teach you to have a vocabulary.



Considering that my one football player, the chess club, and grandma have just pulled the captain of your football team out of a hole in the turf and kicked his ass.....

I can see you are a simple person....so I'll put this in a simple way In the words of an infamous Interior Secretary: "I have a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple. And we have talent." :D The stat that matters most is the one up on the scoreboard. Our coalition,...such as it was, has led the free world. We rock.


Please see again the definition of the word coalition. Educate yourself.

-z You would have no need for insults if you actually had an argument. Since you don't, I'll explain again. I wasn't comparing Bush's psuedo-coalition to Iraq, I was comparing it to the one his father put together. You remember Destert Storm, right? That was the war that went according to plan, had international support, and didn't depend on the U.S. supplying all the troops and paying all the bills. I mean, I appreciate all that countries like Guinea and Camaroon have done in support of the war(LOL)...even if we did have to get their support through threats.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Skeptic
How's high school, "Mr. Manifesto"? Finals getting you down?

Wow! I really am psychic!

Thanks for your concern, Skeptic. The finals really are getting me down. I'm having trouble with this particular question:

Q You are in an armoured bulldozer knocking down peoples' homes when you notice a protestor in an orange vest standing in front of one of the houses. She is clearly agitated at the prospect of you rendering more Palestinians homeless. Do you:

a) Have your gunner shoot her?
b) Run her down in your bulldozer?
c) Retreat and call for back-up?
d) None of the above?

I'm not sure which to answer. a) and b) sound too extreme, but I know c) is the wrong answer because it doesn't say that she's carrying a brick. I really want to get this question right, because I'm told it's the sort of thing the IDF look at when they're recruiting. Can you help?

[DanishDynamite]

Skeptic: 1). Saddam Hussein would still be butchering Iraqis by the thousands, and/or

DanishDynamite: Why would you think so, aside from your ability to see the future?

Troll: Uh, past track record ? Law of averages?
And? Skeptic's claim is:

"If the US had taken the advice of some people here, Saddam Hussein would still be butchering Iraqis by the thousands."

I assume the "advice" he refers to, was to give Iraq a last chance and to give Blix the few extra months he needed to finish the job, if Iraq cooperated fully. If Iraq did not cooperate, a UN mandated force could invade. And with a UN mandate, the acrimonous split between the US and some of its allies wouldn't have occured, the US wouldn't be footing the bill by itself and we would have had a lot less to fight about in this forum.

So how does Skeptic know this wouldn't have been the outcome?

[Ralph]

Originally posted by The Fool

Was it your psychic abilities that discovered this or were you tipped off by another psychic? Would it be appropriate to report that I have had a vision that Manifesto is actually a transexual street prostitute, this is a much more interesting vision than yours.......Or maybe you just find it hard to believe that people just get bored with your bigoted rants and move on to another thread?

I think you should just go back to being the judge of what is good and evil in the world, you are so much more suited to simple repetative tasks.

You don't need psychic abilities to guess that Manifesto is a typical teenager.

Anybody that's actually raised children to this age would recognize his childish behavior as being very typical for this age group.

I've raised 3---the youngest is 18 at the moment. No psychic abilities needed to see Manifesto acts like they did---

If you want to believe he's not---go right ahead. I just hope others realize they're probably hearing the opinions of someone with a very limited experience of REAL LIFE......

Quite honestly---at least if he's 18---he has an excuse for his behavior. If he's an adult an acts like this................it's long past time to get off the internet and go out & get a life........

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Ralph

Quite honestly---at least if he's 18---he has an excuse for his behavior. If he's an adult an acts like this... it's long past time to get off the internet and go out & get a life...

Yeah, like you... No, wait...

[Ralph]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Yeah, like you... No, wait...


As I said----you don't need a degree to spot a teenager or an immature adult. It's pretty obvious.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ralph



As I said----you don't need a degree to spot a teenager or an immature adult. It's pretty obvious.
well, Its obvious to you I suppost....... So mysterious one, can you gaze into your navel and tell me something about my good self, or do your powers only apply to manifesto? Do you need my exact birth time?

[Ralph]

Originally posted by The Fool

well, Its obvious to you I suppost....... So mysterious one, can you gaze into your navel and tell me something about my good self, or do your powers only apply to manifesto? Do you need my exact birth time?

My navel seems blank at the moment. Why not just tell us about yourself.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ralph


My navel seems blank at the moment. Why not just tell us about yourself.

Damn, It only applies to manifesto? you two must have some sort of cosmic link, Maybe you are actually manifestos guardian angel.... Pulling him back to the path of truth if we strays.

Anyway, you be sure to keep an eye on him and report back if you stumble apon any other evidence of his age...ok?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by The Fool


Damn, It only applies to manifesto? you two must have some sort of cosmic link, Maybe you are actually manifestos guardian angel.... Pulling him back to the path of truth if we strays.

Anyway, you be sure to keep an eye on him and report back if you stumble apon any other evidence of his age...ok?

Maybe he's my evil sockpuppet. It sure would explain why he keeps jocking me all the time.

[Ralph]

Originally posted by The Fool


Damn, It only applies to manifesto? you two must have some sort of cosmic link, Maybe you are actually manifestos guardian angel.... Pulling him back to the path of truth if we strays.

Anyway, you be sure to keep an eye on him and report back if you stumble apon any other evidence of his age...ok?

As I said--it's my opinion he's an unemployed high school student living with his parents. If he's not---he certainly acts like an unemployed high school student who lives with his parents.

Aren't you going to tell us about yourself?.........or do you have something to hide too?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ralph


As I said--it's my opinion he's an unemployed high school student living with his parents. If he's not---he certainly acts like an unemployed high school student who lives with his parents.

Aren't you going to tell us about yourself?.........or do you have something to hide too?

Yes, I have something to hide.... But, as I have my aluminium foil helmet on you will not be able to use your powers to find out.


So its your opinion that he is an unemployed high school student living with his parents......pretty boring, I think you could at least have him as a disembodied brain in an evil genius's laboratory....maybe floating in a perspex tube of blue bubbly liquid?

[Ralph]

Originally posted by The Fool


Yes, I have something to hide.... But, as I have my aluminium foil helmet on you will not be able to use your powers to find out.


So its your opinion that he is an unemployed high school student living with his parents......pretty boring, I think you could at least have him as a disembodied brain in an evil genius's laboratory....maybe floating in a perspex tube of blue bubbly liquid?

Will you also be taking a political history course in 2004???

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Ralph


Will you also be taking a political history course in 2004???
No, I work for a living.... But I fear I should not divulge more in case you use the info to make a voodoo doll of me....

I encourage you to treat people on here based on what they type. Fantasies about how old they are or what they do in real life may be fun but can make you look a little spooky...

[Ralph]

Originally posted by The Fool

No, I work for a living.... But I fear I should not divulge more in case you use the info to make a voodoo doll of me....

I encourage you to treat people on here based on what they type. Fantasies about how old they are or what they do in real life may be fun but can make you look a little spooky...

I won't make a voodoo doll of you. I promise.

I don't judge people on their age or what their occupation is.

I judge people on what they say which is what I did in Manifesto's case.

[Zep]

Meanwhile, back in the REAL world...Skeptic: If the US had taken the advice of some people here...

1). Saddam Hussein would still be butchering Iraqis by the thousands, and/or

2). Saddam Hussein would emerge from hiding and declare "victory over the American infidel" after the US, had "just got up and left".

3). The truth about what happened to the WMDs, which would no doubt come out in a trial of Saddam, would remain unknown.

But don't except any admission of misake from THAT crowd. They're right, everybody else is wrong, that's that.
STRAWMANS! Strawmen? A flock of strawmen? Strawmenii? (What IS the collective noun for this, someone?)

1) What advice by whom gave you the understanding that Saddam should be left alone to continue on his merry way? I think you will find that the majority of opinions were that he should go ASAP, but that it would need clever and effective and fully sanctioned methods to do so. Otherwise he would simply slip away into hiding for many months... Whoops, he did, didn't he.

2) Saddam successfully hid from the full might and power and technology of the vigilant and searching US forces for nine months before he was found. And it appears likely that he was found only as a result of a tip-off from inside sources (rumors are it was one of his wives, for money). Without that, it's a possibility that Saddam would have popped up again unscathed as soon as the US forces withdrew.

3) The truth about WMD's may also be revealed along with some rather unwelcome evidence about US connivance to covertly assist Saddam over the decades in his wars against Communists, Iran, Kurds, etc, etc. Right now, Saddam is just playing the "I know where the WMD's are but I'm not going to show you unless you make a deal with me" game. Typical and utterly expected of him! Doesn't make them real...

4) What is that last paragraph about??? :confused: Admission of what?

[Skeptic]

1) What advice by whom gave you the understanding that Saddam should be left alone to continue on his merry way?

The "no war on Iraq!" crowd.

I think you will find that the majority of opinions were that he should go ASAP, but that it would need clever and effective and fully sanctioned methods to do so.

By the UN... where, to repeat, Syria heads the security council and Libya the human rights commission. God forbid THEY would get mad at an "immoral and unauthorized" war...

Otherwise he would simply slip away into hiding for many months... Whoops, he did, didn't he.

Huh?

Why on earth do you think that if there would have been a "fully snactioned" attack--an extremely dubious matter--then Saddam Hussein, once defeated, would NOT slip into hiding?

Can you really see him thinking, "Well, if this was merely an attack by the imperialist Americans, I'd go into hiding, but now that the UN agreed as well... OK, I'll give myself up, then!"

Without that, it's a possibility that Saddam would have popped up again unscathed as soon as the US forces withdrew.

Yes, which was a good reason for the US to stay at the very least until they found him.

3) The truth about WMD's may also be revealed along with some rather unwelcome evidence about US connivance to covertly assist Saddam over the decades in his wars against Communists, Iran, Kurds, etc, etc.

Indeed so. But far less evidence than that of France, Russia, etc. assisting him. Surely, however, this is a GOOD thing, not a bad thing. It will show that the US is not afraid to give him a fair trial, even if it exposes some less-than-kosher deals on its own part.

The USA should, in fact, welcome just this--to make clear it holds nothing back, much like the Nuremberg trials did not refuse to let defendants speak about how the "corrupt deomcracies" made shady deals with them. It availed them not, and probably won't avail Saddam, either. For The magnitude of his crimes is far too great for him to claim to have been a "tool" of the USA.

Hell, I hope he goes ahead and claims it with all his might: can you think of something more discouraging to Arab fascism than their greatest leader, their best hope against the "imperialist infidel", trying to save his neck by claiming he was merely a puppet and tool of the "Great Satan"?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
Maybe some people are worried that if idiots out there, like Bush,

Hey, "Mr. Manifesto", why have you mysteriously disappeared from the thread about "USA causing bloodbath in Afghanistan" after it was discovered you are a high school student?

Hey, Mr Skeptic, how come you don't tell us about your bulldozer skills after you revealed you have driven them in Palestine?

IIRC, in the bloodbath thread, it just turned into one sided flame war that was a disgrace.

[Ralph]

What "flames" are you referring to?

Was it the suggestion that someone was a high school student?

Or were you referring to part where the ""alleged" high school student inferred that a former member of the IDF enjoyed bulldozing woman & children?