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Budly
25th August 2009, 11:07 AM
People, even here on a skeptic forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5042512#post5042512) actually believe that toward the end of the war, SS Aryan studs went around and impregnated women so as to have as many Aryan race babies as possible. Not unlike how a farm breeds animals. What a ridiculous urban lore legend! Even the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (which is hardly objective) sets the record straight that this didn't occur.

From the USHMM.org (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007402)

SS and Lebensborn

The SS even became involved in making social policy for the German Reich. In December 1935, using private funding but within the institutional framework of the SS Race and Settlement Main Office, the SS established the Lebensborn (Fount of Life) Society. Lebensborn was to care for children born out of wedlock to racially “suitable” women. Special Lebensborn homes provided a viable option to unwed mothers who might otherwise seek abortions (for which the Nazi regime increased criminal penalties in 1933). The homes offered a protective atmosphere in which the women could have their babies and even raise them if they so chose. Himmler estimated that the SS could save at least 100,000 babies from being aborted during pregnancy.

The ideological basis for Lebensborn corresponded to Nazi social policy encouraging families to have large numbers of children: more racially suitable babies meant more racially suitable and superior soldiers and eventual unlimited expansion of the so-called German master race. During the war, the SS leadership reassured SS men serving at the front that not only their legitimate children but any illegitimate children (and their mothers) would be cared for in Lebensborn homes. Himmler and Deputy Nazi party chief Rudolf Hess were even prepared to urge German women to choose to conceive and bear children out of wedlock for the sake of the Reich, but this overt assault on the institution of marriage in name of the biological expansion of the race was too radical even for Nazi society in time of war.
After further review, this thread has been restored and placed in the most appropriate subforum. This is a very controversial issue, so please keep it civil.

SpitfireIX
25th August 2009, 11:37 AM
People, even here on a skeptic forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5042512#post5042512) actually believe that toward the end of the war, SS Aryan studs went around and impregnated women so as to have as many Aryan race babies as possible. Not unlike how a farm breeds animals. What a ridiculous urban lore legend! Even the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (which is hardly objective) sets the record straight that this didn't occur.

From the USHMM.org (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007402)


I'm going to go ahead and respond to this just because I happened to see it on the Recent Threads page, even though I'm sure it's going to be moved to its proper thread soon. If you'd bothered to read the article that ddt linked, it makes clear that this didn't happen.

Himmler's effort to secure a racially pure Greater Germany, the fact that Lebensborn was one of Himmler's race programmes, and sloppy journalism on the subject in the early years after the war led to false assumptions about the programme. The main misconception was that the programme involved coercive breeding. The first stories reporting that Lebensborn was a coercive breeding programme can be found in the German magazine Revue, which ran a series on the subject in the 1950s. On January 13, 1961, the German film Der Lebensborn (also known as Ordered to Love (US) and Fountain of Life (International)), produced by Artur Brauner, was released, later to gain worldwide circulation. The film purported that young girls were forced to mate in Nazi camps, which was not the case.[bolding mine]


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/17060474efd71cbba4.jpg

Budly
25th August 2009, 11:54 AM
A moderator moved this thread into 9-11 conspiracy theories, when it should be in "Conspiracy Theories." a moderator also merged my thread "Nazi Master Race Breeding Program using 'Aryan' Studs" into the "holocaust denial videos" thread which makes no sense. That thread had nothing to do with holocaust denial videos. I'm being discriminated against here at randi forum which doesn't surprise me. It's just a light version of the second stage:

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

twinstead
25th August 2009, 11:58 AM
A moderator moved this thread into 9-11 conspiracy theories, when it should be in "Conspiracy Theories." a moderator also merged my thread "Nazi Master Race Breeding Program using 'Aryan' Studs" into the "holocaust denial videos" thread which makes no sense. That thread had nothing to do with holocaust denial videos. I'm being discriminated against here at randi forum which doesn't surprise me. It's just a light version of the second stage:

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

Do you think every idiotic theory that is ridiculed and opposed is true?

ElMondoHummus
25th August 2009, 12:15 PM
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

Since you feel the need to reiterate that as if it helps you any, I feel compelled to point out that it doesn't. Bumping old post:

Unfortunately, in bringing this up, you're missing something: It only applies to truth, not fraudulent scholarship or maliciously generated myth. Pseudoscholarship and deceitfully created distortions to history get stuck in the ridicule stage. And for good reason.

Remember what Carl Sagan said:
... [T]he fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. They laughed at Columbus, they laughed at Fulton, they laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown.


You, sir, are certainly no Columbus, Fulton, or a Wright Brother. And the only reason I refrain from comparing you to the last is because I'd rather not insult Bozo.

JimBenArm
25th August 2009, 12:17 PM
So when is this idea of yours going to go from being ridiculed to anything else? It's been stuck there for 60 years and counting...

Horatius
25th August 2009, 12:17 PM
People, even here on a skeptic forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5042512#post5042512) actually believe that toward the end of the war, SS Aryan studs went around and impregnated women so as to have as many Aryan race babies as possible. Not unlike how a farm breeds animals. What a ridiculous urban lore legend! Even the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (which is hardly objective) sets the record straight that this didn't occur.

From the USHMM.org (http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007402)


Merged with earlier thread with similar topic. Please do not start multiple threads on the same topic.

I'm going to go ahead and respond to this just because I happened to see it on the Recent Threads page, even though I'm sure it's going to be moved to its proper thread soon. If you'd bothered to read the article that ddt linked, it makes clear that this didn't happen.




http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/17060474efd71cbba4.jpg



So, Budly, honest question time: Did you really think that no one here would bother to look at the post you were denigrating, and follow the provided links, to find out that the poster said nothing that was anything like what you claimed they said?

Did you really think that?

You yourself, earlier in this thread, chastised us for allegedly relying on strawman versions of your own arguments, and now, you've gone ahead and presented a strawman version of ddt's post. Why would you do that?

Seriously, did you really think that you'd get away with that? Did you really, actually, honestly, believe that we are that stupid and/or incurious?

Do you still think that?


Seriously.

ddt
25th August 2009, 12:44 PM
People, even here on a skeptic forum (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5042512#post5042512) actually believe that toward the end of the war, SS Aryan studs went around and impregnated women so as to have as many Aryan race babies as possible.
(bolding mine)

Cool. Budly picks up one of my posts and distorts it. You are aware, Budly, that the most well-known Lebensborn baby, Ms. Lyngstad, had a father who was "just" a Wehrmacht officer (captain IIRC). I'm sure you know here, or at least her music. :p

And why doesn't anyone follow the rules anymore? :)

Leiden cheese.

abenja1
25th August 2009, 01:22 PM
A moderator moved this thread into 9-11 conspiracy theories, when it should be in "Conspiracy Theories." a moderator also merged my thread "Nazi Master Race Breeding Program using 'Aryan' Studs" into the "holocaust denial videos" thread which makes no sense. That thread had nothing to do with holocaust denial videos. I'm being discriminated against here at randi forum which doesn't surprise me. It's just a light version of the second stage:

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

How ironic. The Holocaust denier complaining about free speech, yet probably believes the Holocaust should not be talked as if its true.

The Platypus
25th August 2009, 02:53 PM
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

If only i had a dollar for every cult minion nutjob, from creationists to truthers, to these Nazi nuts, that dragged out this quote and waved it around like it validates their insanity.

They recite it like programmed drones.

Do they like, teach this, in some kook cult, how to brainwash your minions, handbook? :boggled:

Audible Click
25th August 2009, 03:08 PM
Crickets (I will follow some rules.) Budly, I get the impression that you came to this forum, made your silly rules in the OP, and then thought you wouldn't be debated on the actual facts on the Holocaust. Am I right? If I am right you've made a very large mistake. Most of us practice a skill called critical thinking and, unfortunately, this does not seem to be in your skill set. Your videos are amaturish, prevaricating, trash and your "debating" technique is laughable. So if you thought we'd just follow your rules and not engage you in a spirited debate, you were dead wrong.

Liederkranz

gtc
25th August 2009, 03:18 PM
If only i had a dollar for every cult minion nutjob, from creationists to truthers, to these Nazi nuts, that dragged out this quote and waved it around like it validates their insanity.

They recite it like programmed drones.

Do they like, teach this, in some kook cult, how to brainwash your minions, handbook? :boggled:

Even if New Truth implied Ridicule it wouldn't follow that Ridicule implies New Truth but not all truths are ridiculed. So the kooks are wrong twice over.

dudalb
25th August 2009, 03:30 PM
If only i had a dollar for every cult minion nutjob, from creationists to truthers, to these Nazi nuts, that dragged out this quote and waved it around like it validates their insanity.

They recite it like programmed drones.

Do they like, teach this, in some kook cult, how to brainwash your minions, handbook? :boggled:


No Crap. If I had a dollar every time a Conspiracy kook...or any other type of crackpot..used that quote, I would be a rich man.

ElMondoHummus
25th August 2009, 04:00 PM
(bolding mine)

Cool...

... And why doesn't anyone follow the rules anymore? :)

Leiden cheese.

Crud. I forgot.

Galaxy Veggie Shreds (http://www.galaxyfoods.com/ourbrands/usa/veggie.asp).*






*Yeah, I know that's an abomination. I already stated my reasons for choosing very very wrong cheeses (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5026032#post5026032).

ElMondoHummus
25th August 2009, 06:57 PM
Do you think every idiotic theory that is ridiculed and opposed is true?



He's obviously unfamiliar with syllogistic fallacies since he's walking straight into one. From my point of view, he's committing the "Fallacy of the undistributed middle term (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_undistributed_middle)" (here's another link (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/undismid.html)):

All A are C
All B are C
Therefore, all A are B
The essence of Budly's statement:

My proposal is being laughed at.
All unpopular truths are first laughed at.
Therefore, my proposal is simply an unpopular truth.
People more versed in logic can tell me if I'm identifying that correctly, but from what I can tell, that's exactly the error he's committing. Regardless of the exact type, though, he's clearly committing a logical fallacy in presuming that our derision means holocaust denial is somehow a truth that's being denied merely because it's unpopular.

[/pedant] :pedant

woolfe99
25th August 2009, 07:40 PM
Yup, that's the fallacy.

So far he's only trudged out the Schopenhauer quote. No comparison yet between Holocaust deniers and Galileo, or between the war crimes trials and the Salem witch trials. :D

- woolfe

elbe
25th August 2009, 11:05 PM
Yup, that's the fallacy.

So far he's only trudged out the Schopenhauer quote. No comparison yet between Holocaust deniers and Galileo, or between the war crimes trials and the Salem witch trials. :D

- woolfe

They were nazis and witches?!

Klimax
26th August 2009, 12:16 AM
They were nazis and witches?!

Some nazis could be that deranged.(occultism)

JoeyDonuts
26th August 2009, 12:40 AM
They were nazis and witches?!

Which one floats?

JimBenArm
26th August 2009, 04:27 AM
Which one floats?
I thought all turds floated.

Darat
26th August 2009, 04:36 AM
...snip...

All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

That is quite true, at first people ridiculed those people that were telling the world of the systematic exterminations the Germans were implementing, then there was harsh opposition to accepting this idea and today we are in the final phase when it has been accepted as self-evident.

Tricky
26th August 2009, 05:07 AM
After further review, this thread has been restored and placed in the most appropriate subforum. This is a very controversial issue, so please keep it civil.

Cainkane1
26th August 2009, 05:14 AM
I was watching "World at War" and they had a section on the proper aryan men mating with proper aryan women. They showed the babies. Why would they lie? I mean if your able to murder innocent "inferior" people why not breed "superior" people?

Observing the offspring of these unions after they grew up they looked pretty unremarkable to me.

Horatius
26th August 2009, 05:19 AM
So, Budly, honest question time: Did you really think that no one here would bother to look at the post you were denigrating, and follow the provided links, to find out that the poster said nothing that was anything like what you claimed they said?

Did you really think that?

You yourself, earlier in this thread, chastised us for allegedly relying on strawman versions of your own arguments, and now, you've gone ahead and presented a strawman version of ddt's post. Why would you do that?

Seriously, did you really think that you'd get away with that? Did you really, actually, honestly, believe that we are that stupid and/or incurious?

Do you still think that?


Seriously.


So, even after being moved out of the CT ghetto, Budly still hasn't answered my question. Let's face it, this question is far more interesting than reviewing the already established facts of this historical event.

Marduk
26th August 2009, 07:58 AM
It must be true, I saw it on TV they were trying to clone little Hitlers


Not Mozart, Doctor.

Not Picasso.

Not a genius who would

enrich the world...

.. but a lonely little boy,

with a domineering father,...

.. a customs officer,...


.. who was 52 when he was born.

And...

.. an affectionate, doting mother...

.. who was 29.

The father died at 65...

.. when the boy was nearly 14.

Adolf Hitler.
:eye-poppi

Budly
26th August 2009, 12:51 PM
HansMustermann wrote:

In all fairness, the Nazis did have a breeding program too (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5042124#post5042124)

In response, DDT wrote:
Yes, Lebensborn. If you looked Aryan enough, you could even participate. For a dramatization see, e.g., the movie Sophie's Choice. (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5042512#post5042512)

To be fair, while "DDT" says the Nazis did have a breeding program, the link he offers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebensborn) says they didn't have a breeding program.

However movies aren't the only source of confusion. An article in Life Magazine either in April or May 1945, made the allegation of the breeding program, complete with photos of strong babies. These babies were most likely the children of SS men who had died in battle, which was a major aspect of the lebensborn.

There is an episode of Phil Donahue which has on it Michael Shermer and gas chamber denier Bradley Smith. On the show a phone caller mixes Lebensborn with Mengele experiments, and Michael Shermer apparently believes her.

I myself remember hearing the legend of the breeding program in high school from another student.

I also wonder that if this was a program within the SS, and the SS had racial laws for admittance, that the lebensborn was "racial" only via being a program for the SS, but I'm not sure what the answer to that is.

woolfe99
26th August 2009, 01:46 PM
In response, DDT wrote:
Yes, Lebensborn. If you looked Aryan enough, you could even participate. For a dramatization see, e.g., the movie Sophie's Choice.

To be fair, while "DDT" says the Nazis did have a breeding program, the link he offers says they didn't have a breeding program.

Actually, the wiki link doesn't precisely say it wasn't a "breeding program." Accordingly DDT's answer of yes can be read as consistent with the link. It's kind of a semantic issue, and may depend on one's definition of "breeding program."

After World War II it was reported that Lebensborn was a breeding programme. While individuals were not forced to have sex with selected partners[1], the programme did aim to promote the growth of "superior" Aryan populations through providing excellent health care and by restricting access to the programme with medical selections that applied eugenic and "race" criteria.

So the Wiki article does not reject the notion of labelling it a "breeding program" per se. It does, however, say that it did not involve compulsory breeding.

- Dave

Simon39759
26th August 2009, 01:48 PM
Wasn't it a breeding program? After all, it was aimed at promoting the birth of 'racially suitable' babies.
While not forced breeding, it still seems like a breeding program to me.

woolfe99
26th August 2009, 01:51 PM
Wasn't it a breeding program? After all, it was aimed at promoting the birth of 'racially suitable' babies.
While not forced breeding, it still seems like a breeding program to me.

The point is arguable either way semantically, which is why Wiki doesn't commit to saying it was or wasn't a breeding program.

Personally, I'd rather describe it as a policy consistent with racial eugenics, and leave it at that. But YMMV.

What seems to have created the argument here in this thread is that Budly just assumed that when the term "breeding program" was used, it necessarily meant forced or compulsory breeding. Accordingly, he may have intentionally or unintentially knocked down a straw man.

- Dave

Budly
26th August 2009, 01:56 PM
Well when it comes to Hitler/Nazis there's usually a lot of lies. Jesse Owens is an example. So how can we know about the Lebensborn objectively? I don't know, but my impression is that if you were in the Waffen SS, and you died in battle, that you'd know there was a program to help your wife take care of your children, or even to help children born out of wedlock. Perhaps this included help if you were still alive and on the front and couldn't be with your kids, that there was an organization to help care for them. And then when Life Magazine came upon one of these places and saw all these kids, they drew "the master race breeding program" conclusions.

woolfe99
26th August 2009, 02:04 PM
Well when it comes to Hitler/Nazis there's usually a lot of lies. Jesse Owens is an example. So how can we know about the Lebensborn objectively? I don't know, but my impression is that if you were in the Waffen SS, and you died in battle, that you'd know there was a program to help your wife take care of your children, or even to help children born out of wedlock. Perhaps this included help if you were still alive and on the front and couldn't be with your kids, that there was an organization to help care for them. And then when Life Magazine came upon one of these places and saw all these kids, they drew "the master race breeding program" conclusions.

There is no reason to hold allegations directed at the Nazis to a different evidentiary standard than allegations directed against any other regime.

Anyway, Wiki makes clear that the program was not only for members of the SS but rather to any and all "aryans," so if you are trying to imply that this was some kind of "employee benefit" program for SS members rather than a policy of racial eugenics, you are at very least inconsistent with wiki. Beyond wiki, I do not know as I haven't studied any further.

You aren't seriously denying the Nazi belief in racial eugenics, are you?

- Dave

Budly
26th August 2009, 02:11 PM
You aren't seriously denying the Nazi belief in racial eugenics, are you?
No.

ddt
26th August 2009, 02:17 PM
Well when it comes to Hitler/Nazis there's usually a lot of lies. Jesse Owens is an example. So how can we know about the Lebensborn objectively? I don't know, but my impression is that if you were in the Waffen SS, and you died in battle, that you'd know there was a program to help your wife take care of your children, or even to help children born out of wedlock.

You keep harping on babies of SS men. Not just SS men, Budly, I repeat from my previous post:
You are aware, Budly, that the most well-known Lebensborn baby, Ms. Lyngstad, had a father who was "just" a Wehrmacht officer (captain IIRC). I'm sure you know here, or at least her music. :p

wiki entry of Ms. Lyngstad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anni-Frid_Lyngstad)

And some music to cheer you up, Budly:

p50NfYUCT2c
She doesn't look very Aryan though (sorry Budly, she's the brunette :D)

Ranb
26th August 2009, 02:36 PM
Well when it comes to Hitler/Nazis there's usually a lot of lies. Jesse Owens is an example.

Is the below claim an example of what you say is a lie?

On the first day, Hitler shook hands only with the German victors and then left the stadium. Olympic committee officials then insisted Hitler greet each and every medalist or none at all. Hitler opted for the latter and skipped all further medal presentations.

Owens claims, "When I passed the Chancellor he arose, waved his hand at me, and I waved back at him. I think the writers showed bad taste in criticizing the man of the hour in Germany. ” and "Hitler didn't snub me; it was FDR who snubbed me. The president didn't even send me a telegram." Jesse Owens was never invited to the White House nor bestowed any honors by Presidents Roosevelt or Truman during their terms.

Ranb

Budly
26th August 2009, 02:43 PM
Hi Ranb,

Yes, but I don't want to change topic.

dudalb
26th August 2009, 02:57 PM
You keep harping on babies of SS men. Not just SS men, Budly, I repeat from my previous post:


wiki entry of Ms. Lyngstad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anni-Frid_Lyngstad)

And some music to cheer you up, Budly:

p50NfYUCT2c
She doesn't look very Aryan though (sorry Budly, she's the brunette :D)

Mama Mia!

Budly
26th August 2009, 03:14 PM
Hi Dudalb and DDT,

Read the entry on Abba's Anni-Frid Lyngstad. She wasn't a lebensborn baby. A lebensborn baby would be a baby who was in a lebensborn home/facility. She never was.

ddt
26th August 2009, 04:05 PM
Hi Dudalb and DDT,

Read the entry on Abba's Anni-Frid Lyngstad. She wasn't a lebensborn baby. A lebensborn baby would be a baby who was in a lebensborn home/facility. She never was.

She may not be the best example indeed. For one, she was born after the end of the war. In Norway, the term "Lebensborn" is often used more broadly for all children with German (military) fathers.

However, German soldiers were explicitly encouraged to fraternize with the local girls in certain countries, especially in Norway. There were 15 Lebensborn facilities all over Norway, one of them in Narvik, 20 km from the village where Anni-Frid was born. Mind, Lebensborn also entailed prenatal medical and financial care for the mother, but I've found no conclusive evidence this was the case with Anni-Frid's mother.

Stellafane
26th August 2009, 04:14 PM
...All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.
Arthur Schopenhauer

Interesting quote. Stupidity, on the other hand, generally stays in the first stage forever. I'm sure old Artie S. himself would agree that not everything that gets ridiculed will inevitably evolve to self-evident truth stage. As Carl Sagan once said, "They laughed at Galileo. They laughed at Newton. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown."

Budly
26th August 2009, 04:33 PM
DDT wrote:
However, German soldiers were explicitly encouraged to fraternize with the local girls in certain countries, especially in Norway.

Can you back up that claim?

DDT wrote:
In Norway, the term "Lebensborn" is often used more broadly for all children with German (military) fathers.

How do you know?

Ranb
26th August 2009, 04:43 PM
Hi Ranb,

Yes, but I don't want to change topic.

You already changed the topic by bringing Jesse Owens into the discussion. So you are claiming that Hitler shook hands with Owens after he got won an event? Evidence to support your claim?

Ranb

Adam Ferguson
26th August 2009, 04:55 PM
So someone made up stuff to discredit the nazis, 'cos they were such nice people otherwise?

...Needn't have bothered really.

ddt
26th August 2009, 05:01 PM
DDT wrote:


Can you back up that claim?

DDT wrote:


How do you know?

You can also do your own research. It's not like you disagree that Lebensborn existed and what it entailed.

ETA:
- did you like the music?
- does Anni-Frid look Aryan to you?


Try to find the documentary "Norway's Nazi Secret".

Mondial
31st August 2009, 08:45 AM
You already changed the topic by bringing Jesse Owens into the discussion. So you are claiming that Hitler shook hands with Owens after he got won an event? Evidence to support your claim?

Ranb
Have a look at the following article -
www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/6008196/Adolf-Hitler-did-shake-hands-with-Jesse-Owens.html (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/olympics/6008196/Adolf-Hitler-did-shake-hands-with-Jesse-Owens.html)

Ranb
1st September 2009, 08:50 PM
Owens never publicly claimed to have met Hitler or shook his hand, just waved to him after winning an event. Siegfried Mischner on the other hand suppresses his own story on Owens shaking hands with Hitler only to change his mind later. Any reason why his story is any more believable now compared to what he wrote years ago?

What is your stance on this? Got any reason to not believe Owens?

Ranb

Moss
3rd September 2009, 04:43 AM
The Lebensborn program never took off as it was intended.
The idea was that Lebensborn should encourage but not force "racially suitable" people to bred, even out of marriage. SS-Officers were encouraged to "sow their seed" with "Aryan" girls but it seems the idea was mostly scoffed at (like much of the really weird occult stuff Himmler was endeared to).
A service offered by the Lebensborn was a secret and anonymous childbirth and offering a kind of adoption service if the mother did not want the child.
Polish, Hungarian and other children of the occupied territories that looked sufficiently similar to the racial ideal of Nazism were robbed from their parents and also offered for adoption via the Lebensborn.
So no forced breeding but still a sick institution.

Budly
3rd September 2009, 02:40 PM
The Lebensborn program never took off as it was intended.
The idea was that Lebensborn should encourage but not force "racially suitable" people to bred, even out of marriage. SS-Officers were encouraged to "sow their seed" with "Aryan" girls but it seems the idea was mostly scoffed at (like much of the really weird occult stuff Himmler was endeared to).
A service offered by the Lebensborn was a secret and anonymous childbirth and offering a kind of adoption service if the mother did not want the child.
Polish, Hungarian and other children of the occupied territories that looked sufficiently similar to the racial ideal of Nazism were robbed from their parents and also offered for adoption via the Lebensborn.
So no forced breeding but still a sick institution.

This isn't what the US Holocaust Memorial Museum website said about the program. I offered a source. You don't offer any source. The program was primarily for the children of SS men who had died in battle.

A service offered by the Lebensborn was a secret and anonymous childbirth and offering a kind of adoption service if the mother did not want the child.
Please offer a source for that.

Moss
4th September 2009, 02:16 AM
Well, as I'm not allowed to post URLs I'm unable to give you the exact articles.
A lot comes from the German Wikipedia article about the Lebensborn and its source links. Among them is an BB article that mentions the intended "Norwegian fraternisation" of SS-Officers.

Edit: And actually both my summarising and the quote from the USHMM run along similar lines. The children out of wedlock angle was what I hinted at with the secret and anonymous childbirth. It was to remove the social stigma. But it still ran contrary to the social mores of the time.

The telegraph.co.uk site has an article about a child that was robbed under the auspice of the Lebensborn program. You can easily find this and other articles via the search term lebensborn there.
If you search on google with the terms lebensborn and aryanisation you should find a summary of the nuernberg followup trials that also has a paragraph about the Lebensborn and its place in the aryanisation machinery.