Using intent in Jiulong Baguazhang

[Boar]

I searched but couldn't find anything on Capt/Dr/ John Painter who claims to move and effect people without touching them.

Here is a video of him using his intent to move someone. :p

I can't post the url but:

youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=I9QOADprt9U

He has a student on another forum challenging anyone who dares question the claims. So does this fit the bill for the 1,000,000 dollar challenge?

[GeeMack]

I searched but couldn't find anything on Capt/Dr/ John Painter who claims to move and effect people without touching them.

[...]

He has a student on another forum challenging anyone who dares question the claims. So does this fit the bill for the 1,000,000 dollar challenge?


Looks like he'd need a lot more than his own disciples acting as they believe he wants them to act in order to try for the million.

ETA: Okay, apparently embedding is disabled on this video. Here's the LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QOADprt9U).

[Boar]

Thank you for linking it. Here is a short bio on him.

.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/drp.htm


He has claimed to be a Dr, a Capt and a Ranger at various times in marketing his "art". He was an actor in the Benji movies though.

[Audible Click]

I searched but couldn't find anything on Capt/Dr/ John Painter who claims to move and effect people without touching them.

Here is a video of him using his intent to move someone. :p

I can't post the url but:

youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=I9QOADprt9U

He has a student on another forum challenging anyone who dares question the claims. So does this fit the bill for the 1,000,000 dollar challenge?

I looked at the video but IE won't load his page. What forum is his student on?

[Boar]

His student Dale Dugas teaches at Boston Baguazhang.

He is challenging those who dispute their claims at Defend.net

[sanguine]

He has a student on another forum challenging anyone who dares question the claims. So does this fit the bill for the 1,000,000 dollar challenge?

You'd need to test this Emily Rosa-style, I think, where the test is the ability to detect "intent" in a blinded experiment.

Incidentally, even for a casual test you must, must, must use a non-disciple for the test.

Consider what's happening in the video - Painter is moving his hands, and the student is trying not to let their hands touch. Painter knows balance - after all, he's trained in Baghua which is a legitimate hand-to-hand combat technique. This is simply a push hands exercise where instead of actually touching, Painter moves and the student tries to keep their hand position roughly stable with reference to Painter's hands. Painter can imbalance the student simply by moving his hands in such a way as to force the student to move their hands (and thus their body) to an imbalancing position.

It's no different than imbalancing as practiced by people doing competitive Judo - or, for that matter, competitive push-hands in Taichi tournaments, which ends up looking like Greco-Roman wrestling. The only "special" part is that the compliant student is trying to match his hand position to Painter's, rather than forcing Painter to grab his arms to achieve the exact same effect.

Try this with any random non-student, and Painter can probably imbalance them as well, but he'll have to grab their arms to do so.

[Audible Click]

Thanks for the explanation, sanguine, I couldn't tell from the video exactly what they were doing.

[Boar]

I've got 40 years of Taiji experience, but the only place I've ever seem people moved without contact was when they were the students of the fraud doing the demo.

Here is another example where he moves an entire group with his"intent":

.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&hl=en-GB&v=y9cAkxK_Nbo

[MattusMaximus]

Looks like he'd need a lot more than his own disciples acting as they believe he wants them to act in order to try for the million.

ETA: Okay, apparently embedding is disabled on this video. Here's the LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9QOADprt9U).

You've got to be frakking kidding me. That is supposed to be impressive?!

I have been practicing real martial arts (you know, the kind where you actually make contact with something) for about 20 years now, and in that time I've seen all manner of woo. But this is among the lamest of the lame :rolleyes:

[arthwollipot]

With a proper protocol, media exposure and a letter from an academic, this (IMO) would totally qualify for the MDC.

The hard part would be the protocol.

Personally, I'd jump at the chance to have someone try to knock me over with their chi.

[sanguine]

With a proper protocol, media exposure and a letter from an academic, this (IMO) would totally qualify for the MDC.

The hard part would be the protocol.

Personally, I'd jump at the chance to have someone try to knock me over with their chi.

Yeah, I've done that test. Then I left that terrible aikido class.

For fun, do a search for "Yellow Bamboo" and see if you can find the video of psychic powers versus Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

[pakeha]

Followed the link, saw the video (thanks for the links).
I agree with arthwallipot-
this looks like MDC material.

[patchbunny]

Yeah, I've done that test. Then I left that terrible aikido class.

For fun, do a search for "Yellow Bamboo" and see if you can find the video of psychic powers versus Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

There's a better one out there, for which I do not have a link handy at the mement. This elderly instructor is using his chi powers to fight his entire class without touching him, and they're doing spins and falls like someone was throwing them about the room. He had a $5,000 offer that said he could defeat anyone in a fight, and someone who wasn't his student took him up on it. The fight began, and the challenger walked up and punched him in the face.

[MattusMaximus]

Personally, I'd jump at the chance to have someone try to knock me over with their chi.

Ditto. It would be hilarious :D

Yeah, I've done that test. Then I left that terrible aikido class.

For fun, do a search for "Yellow Bamboo" and see if you can find the video of psychic powers versus Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Oh yeah... I have practiced aikido for about 15 years now, and I've seen some nutjobs in that time. Some are pretty far out there, though the YB folks are in a class of their own :rolleyes:

[MattusMaximus]

There's a better one out there, for which I do not have a link handy at the mement. This elderly instructor is using his chi powers to fight his entire class without touching him, and they're doing spins and falls like someone was throwing them about the room. He had a $5,000 offer that said he could defeat anyone in a fight, and someone who wasn't his student took him up on it. The fight began, and the challenger walked up and punched him in the face.

Your wish is my command. Man, the old "chi-master" got his ass kicked on this one...

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That's just plain embarrassing. How people can delude themselves into accepting this nonsense... :nope:

[MattusMaximus]

As far as whacked out "chi" nonsense, THIS has got to be the craziest & most disconnected from reality I've ever seen: a "chi master" takes a razor sharp machete, claims he can use "chi" to protect his body vs. weapons, and then proceeds to hack into his own arm to prove the point. What do you think happened?...

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Absolute, stunning PWNage. And self-inflicted at that :rolleyes:

[patchbunny]

Absolute, stunning PWNage. And self-inflicted at that :rolleyes:

:eye-poppi

:D

[pakeha]

Thanks for the links, MattusMaximus.
The dark side of martial arts (woo) shown for what it is.
Back in the days when I spent money on such things, I attended a fortnight long "workshop" on strengthening the inner woo.
I was the student no-one could knock over, even the master.
No one could understand why.

[arthwollipot]

For fun, do a search for "Yellow Bamboo" and see if you can find the video of psychic powers versus Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.I was following the Yellow Bamboo story when it was actually happening, about four years or so ago. It was pretty funny.

[Delvo]

Now I wish I'd been watching that show all along. I saw ads for it, but didn't know that it would be willing to show faults in the arts it highlighted, instead of just acting impressed by how awesome they are.

I attended a fortnight long "workshop" on strengthening the inner woo.
I was the student no-one could knock over, even the master.
No one could understand why.I wonder what goes through the students' minds in places like that, and why. They seem to seriously believe that the teacher has powers over them, which must mean they actually FEEL stuff happening to them (and DON'T feel the action of their own muscles doing it instead... which gives me and idea for an experiment involving electrodes to detect muscle flexion...). It's easy to answer that they must convince themselves that it WILL happen, but that doesn't explain it; before it's been done to them, when they haven't had the experience yet or hallucinated it either, why would they be so deeply convinced?

I'm reminded of people in "spiritual healing" events who seem to pass out when the preacher taps their foreheads, and a poster who came here saying that other people routinely read his mind and/or take over control of his body and mind. (That same person later reported getting psychological help and finding a medicine that helps a lot, and thanked JREF members for pushing in that direction.) Delusions of powerlessness, complete with hallucinations of specific forces imposed from the outside that aren't there, just fascinate me...

[Bikewer]

I remember Painter from a series of articles he did for Black Belt magazine quite a long time ago....Maybe 25 years.
He was portraying himself as a student/instructor of the "internal" Chinese martial arts, (Tai Chi, Pa Kua, Ching I......Those are the older forms of Romantization) and was maintaining that he could perform the Dim Mak or delayed death touch.
The articles were actually pretty well done, but the Dim Mak article was not convincing.

He said that there had historically been two methods of doing Dim Mak; one involved poison... The other, in line with chi-acupuncture beliefs, involved "sealing the vein".
This was striking a specific acupunture node with "chi strongly flowing" so as to prevent the flow of chi in the victim and thus kill him.
In support of this, he provided photos of him performing the technique on one of his students, who obligingly collapsed until being revived with traditional methods.

Painter (calling himself "Biff" Painter then) appeared knowledgeable and sincere in these articles, so it's difficult to tell if he was self-deluded or not.
Of course, dealing with his own students, the expected results were obtained, which is the same situation with "touch" knockout artist Dillman.
I was interested in Taoist philosophy back then, and as he was describing himself as a Taoist, I wrote him a letter and got a nice reply.

[Wudang]

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/the_water_margin.html

http://www.taichichuan.co.uk/information/articles/kick_school.html

[Wudang]

I'd assume it fits the bill for the challenge as preliminary work started on a challenge by a Kyusho guy that he could KO people with little or no contact.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=20741

[Georg]

Yellow Bamboo vs reality:

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[Psi Baba]

As far as whacked out "chi" nonsense, THIS has got to be the craziest & most disconnected from reality I've ever seen: a "chi master" takes a razor sharp machete, claims he can use "chi" to protect his body vs. weapons, and then proceeds to hack into his own arm to prove the point. What do you think happened?...

Bandij? I don't need no steenkeeng bandij!