Why Are We Debunking 9/11 CTs? Is It Still Relevant?

[Scott Sommers]

Back in August 2006,
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62568
Gumboot and others tried to answer quiries about the motivations of 911 conspiracy debunkers. They gave very pertainant reasons for the time, but 3 years later, are these points still relevant?

As I have said before, my observations now is that the 911 Truth movement is composed of ranting lunatics. No one listens to them. They can't get more than a handful of people out to a rally. Politicans I am familiar with laugh at them. I doubt anyone would even let most of them near their young children or pets.

Who cares anymore? And why would anyone care enough to put large amounts of time into the extremely impressive calculations and video presentations I see all the time on JREFF?

[dtugg]

I hang around here for the lulz.

[Childlike Empress]

You are funny. Why are you here?

[Justin39640]

I hang around here for the lulz.

indeed
your avatar still rocks
gets me every time

[UNLoVedRebel]

You'll only get a comment like this from a truther.

If you scale up the Pizza Tower 100 times and adjust the material you will get WTC1.

[Hokulele]

This is why:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5041908#post5041908

[Scott Sommers]

You are funny. Why are you here?

Good point. I have an answer which I think most here would feel is important in a continued validation of debunking. But I'd also like to know why others think what they do is relevant even though the 911 Truth movement is, for purposes, meaningless

[Sam.I.Am]

There are still the occasional people who get sucked into this due to the sheer overload of twoofer videos and web sites. Most google search hits go straight to the woo and there are always plenty of gullible people born every day or as P.T. Barnum put it "There's a sucker born every minute".

Besides, it's fun to sit back and watch the crazy from time to time.

[JoeyDonuts]

You are funny. Why are you here?

The cookies, the chuckles, the schadenfreude laughs
The barely coherent discourse
The moving of goalposts, erroneous graphs
And "Larry said Pull It," of course.

The magical moving of aerial craft
From crash zone to overflight bliss!
See, all this was done by Dick Cheney, who laughed,
"Nanothermite? It's too good to miss!"

We'll see space beams and PSYOPS!
Demolitions and Dancing!
Mossad teams and "Thought-Cops!"
Jewish Financing!

Psychics and lizards and NSA posers,
kiddos with far too much time on their hands.
And then Delmart Vreeland, that shifty old hoser
With his wandering, inappropriate hands.

"Popular Mechanics is in on the take,
those Homeland Security Shills!
It's Chertoff and Chertoff, I tell you - those snakes!"
Why, it never ceases to thrill.

So why do we do it: carry the torch
To light up the Truth Movement's tricks?
Some teach, some lecture, but as for yours truly:
It's fun to poke people with sticks.

[Unsecured Coins]

The cookies, the chuckles, the schadenfreude laughs
The barely coherent discourse
The moving of goalposts, erroneous graphs
And "Larry said Pull It," of course.

The magical moving of aerial craft
From crash zone to overflight bliss!
See, all this was done by Dick Cheney, who laughed,
"Nanothermite? It's too good to miss!"

We'll see space beams and PSYOPS!
Demolitions and Dancing!
Mossad teams and "Thought-Cops!"
Jewish Financing!

Psychics and lizards and NSA posers,
kiddos with far too much time on their hands.
And then Delmart Vreeland, that shifty old hoser
With his wandering, inappropriate hands.

"Popular Mechanics is in on the take,
those Homeland Security Shills!
It's Chertoff and Chertoff, I tell you - those snakes!"
Why, it never ceases to thrill.

So why do we do it: carry the torch
To light up the Truth Movement's tricks?
Some teach, some lecture, but as for yours truly:
It's fun to poke people with sticks.


sit down, Joseph:p

[JoeyDonuts]

Sorry. Eric Idle's astrally projecting his damned consciousness into me again.

[Unsecured Coins]

Sorry. Eric Idle's astrally projecting his damned consciousness into me again.

happens to the best of us

[Brainster]

I do it for the groupies.

Oh, wait, that's why I should have been a rock star!

[CHF]

The battle itself is over. After a peak in 2006, 911 truth is now widely acknowledged to be the complete joke that it is.

At this point our job is one of rehabilitation (saving some of the fews truthers left) and making sure newbies don't fall for the TM sales pitch.

But the main purpose for me these days is comedy. Just today we were treated to a cocky truther starting a thread about top-down collapses (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=152216) only to end up proving the OS right. :D

[TruthersLie]

because I"m a paid NWO shill... I have to be here (and on youtube) for 8 hours a day to earn my shiney sea shells.

[Brainache]

Why debunk 911 Truthers?
Because they are there.
We could just ignore them and hope they'll go away, but they keep coming back. It is the same reason why people in other forums debunk Bigfoot or Creationism: It's full of bunk.

We don't like bunk. We like to remove the bunk from things, hence the term "Debunker". If we left any bit of bunk unchallenged, we wouldn't feel like we'd done our job. We'd feel like shirkers. No debunker wants to shirk. In fact, a shirking debunker is no better than a woo peddler. The peddlers of woo would like to see debunkers shirk, so they could shill their flim-flam, but let me state here and now in crystal clear terms for all the world to see:

Debunkers will never shirk their flim-flam shill woo peddler debunking duties!!!!

Hope that clears it up.

[MikeW]

As I have said before, my observations now is that the 911 Truth movement is composed of ranting lunatics. No one listens to them.
They're getting audiences in mosques, so it seems, both in the UK and US. I don't know what kind of reaction they're getting, but it seems to me that helping spread their lies through the Muslim community is a profoundly dangerous thing to do, something that will increase disaffection and isolation, help to separate communities, support more radical elements, reduce the likelihood that people will cooperate with the police, and so maybe even cost lives.

So, who cares any more? I do.

[Caustic Logic]

Why Are We Debunking 9/11 CTs? Is It Still Relevant?

As always, a relative question.

[twinstead]

My sig. It's all about my sig. I don't mind people who are wrong, my beef is people who are wrong and arrogant about it.

[T.A.M.]

As far as it returning to its "glory" days of 2006, and actually getting some attention, Nah, it ain't gonna happen again.

You are right, it has become almost a non-issue, but there are still those who are attracted to it, then come here and see the light. That might be enough reason to continue.

As well, as Mike has said, the snake oil salesmen are now taking their warez to areas where they might attract, among others, the very people who carried out the crimes in the first place.

Overall though, much less, and certainly much less valuable, information and debate is posted here now, c/w 2006.

TAM:)

[Kermassa]

I think it's just as important to debunk 9/11 CTs as it is to debunk the holocaust deniers' claims.

[Longfellow]

Some times, rarely, the '9/11 truth movement' sends a message that must be countered with rationality. The sham paper from Steven Jones and the responses thereof is but one example. R.Mackey's white paper is another. The vast majority of the time, however, the 'movement' blathers on and on about the same old shiznit that has been debunked again and again (controlled demolition, free fall yadda yadda yadda). Or, as I'm sure you've noticed, there are those that debunk themselves. Like the asinine Pentagon fly-over proponents or the holographic planes crowd. Killtown.

But, for the most part, the hydra that is the 'truth movement' fails to deliver a coherent epistle cognizant of the facts so it's really not worth paying much attention to it. Did you ever note how '9/11 truth' disappears when you quit surfing the internet? That's because reality is anathema to fantasy.

I know there are some (hell, most is more like) people who derive amusement reading about the travails of the '9/11 truth movement'. I know I do. But I think a lot of people spend their free time debunking 9/11 CTs simply because it's so gosh-darned easy.

Everything's easier with reality on your side.

[Jonnyclueless]

I think the 9/11 movement has run out of gimmicks and is now reaching the age where they have to provide their own income. It will always be there, but the push seems pretty much dead to me. The horse is now a pulp.

[Thunder]

Who cares anymore? And why would anyone care enough to put large amounts of time into the extremely impressive calculations and video presentations I see all the time on JREFF?

why? its called boredom.

:D

[Comsat Angel]

In times gone by, folks used to pay money to gawk at the lunatics in Bedlam. Here at the JREF Forum we get to do similar, for free, which is not quite cricket, but the TM aren't quite gentlemen. Joey Donut's minor opus' last line sums it up quite well!

NB I went to the Edinburgh Fringe last week, with no access to the internet, and it's true - 9/11 Twoof really does vanish when you're not on the web. Not only that, in a city full of edgy, provocative, controversial acts and productions there wasn't any sign of 9/11 TM anywhere.

[fourtoe]

My sig. It's all about my sig. I don't mind people who are wrong, my beef is people who are wrong and arrogant about it.


I 100% agree with this. These guys are so smug and I cannot stand that.

Also 911 CT are intermixed with a lot of other CT so when I find myself arguing about 911 to people I find myself arguing about the NWO among other things.

And hell, I LOVE arguing with people, it is my favorite pass time. I cannot wait to hand it to We Are Change LA on the 11th.

[firecoins]

Am I a crackpot for not letting people get away with crap in 9/11 truth?

[T.A.M.]

Am I a crackpot for not letting people get away with crap in 9/11 truth?

Nope. Please continue. Your film on LUCUS had me in stitches.

TAM:)

[nicepants]

My sig. It's all about my sig. I don't mind people who are wrong, my beef is people who are wrong and arrogant about it.

I'm with you on this one.

I'm here for entertainment, critical thinking, and of course the obligatory smack down of arrogant truthers who come here trying to spread their lies.

I've also learned a lot from some of the amazing researchers here. 9/11 is a day I will never forget and I feel that I know more about what happened that day than the average citizen.

[BasqueArch]

The cookies, the chuckles, the schadenfreude laughs
The barely coherent discourse
The moving of goalposts, erroneous graphs
And "Larry said Pull It," of course.

< snip >

So why do we do it: carry the torch
To light up the Truth Movement's tricks?
Some teach, some lecture, but as for yours truly:
It's fun to poke people with sticks.

Joey, hilarious, tops, AWA
(a work of art )

I hang around for posts like yours.
I can't stand to have Falsers betray the US with lies and errors.
If only they suffered from their delusions I wouldn't mind, but they filthy the waters I swim in.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Contrariwise," continued Tweedledum, "if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
Lewis Carroll

[mike3]

Back in August 2006,
<url snipped because this thing won't let me post urls. even those that someone else posted getting into a quote of their post, until I've posted "15 posts" -- mike3>
Gumboot and others tried to answer quiries about the motivations of 911 conspiracy debunkers. They gave very pertainant reasons for the time, but 3 years later, are these points still relevant?

As I have said before, my observations now is that the 911 Truth movement is composed of ranting lunatics. No one listens to them. They can't get more than a handful of people out to a rally. Politicans I am familiar with laugh at them. I doubt anyone would even let most of them near their young children or pets.

Who cares anymore? And why would anyone care enough to put large amounts of time into the extremely impressive calculations and video presentations I see all the time on JREFF?

The debates can be fun, except when they get to insults and other sort of things that seem more like a battle of egos and other crap (and I've seen egos too big for one's own good on both sides of these debates. To me, insult usage shows that someone is trying to make their ego feel bigger/better or something.). And it provides a way to practice more scientific method and technique, use of logic, etc.

[Myriad]

I've also learned a lot from some of the amazing researchers here. 9/11 is a day I will never forget and I feel that I know more about what happened that day than the average citizen.


At this point, knowing more about what happened that day is no longer a matter of being well-informed about current events. It's about understanding a part of history, and for many in a certain age group I believe it will become their first historical subject of interest since grade school history teaching did its usual magic trick of making their interest in the subject disappear.

I hope some of those who find it engaging will also branch off to discover some of the wealth of other historical subjects of interest. Pick an event, a time, a place, a people, a trend, an invention, an idea. Any at all.

The odd thing about history is that learning the broad outlines, the basic framework narrative of what happened in what order, the stuff they test you on in school, is the boring part. It's the details that are fascinating. (I think that's why many recent successful popular history books have taken the approach of focusing on a single event and examining all its aspects in detail, placing it within the context of broader history along the way.)

Another interesting thing about studying the unfolding history of an event you've lived through is that it's a good introduction to historiography, the study of how historical narratives are formed, communicated, evolved, and understood.

Within that context, the Truthers join a very long list of agenda-driven vandals of history. However, they're in good company. For instance, Longfellow's poem Paul Revere's Ride, by design, misrepresented Revere's actions that were a link in a well-organized cooperative plan, as the spontaneous actions of a lone hero. That distortion has persisted for a century and a half. I doubt the influence of the Truthers' creative inventions will last nearly so long.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[WUBRINY63]

At this point, knowing more about what happened that day is no longer a matter of being well-informed about current events. It's about understanding a part of history, and for many in a certain age group I believe it will become their first historical subject of interest since grade school history teaching did its usual magic trick of making their interest in the subject disappear.

I hope some of those who find it engaging will also branch off to discover some of the wealth of other historical subjects of interest. Pick an event, a time, a place, a people, a trend, an invention, an idea. Any at all.

The odd thing about history is that learning the broad outlines, the basic framework narrative of what happened in what order, the stuff they test you on in school, is the boring part. It's the details that are fascinating. (I think that's why many recent successful popular history books have taken the approach of focusing on a single event and examining all its aspects in detail, placing it within the context of broader history along the way.)

Another interesting thing about studying the unfolding history of an event you've lived through is that it's a good introduction to historiography, the study of how historical narratives are formed, communicated, evolved, and understood.

Within that context, the Truthers join a very long list of agenda-driven vandals of history. However, they're in good company. For instance, Longfellow's poem Paul Revere's Ride, by design, misrepresented Revere's actions that were a link in a well-organized cooperative plan, as the spontaneous actions of a lone hero. That distortion has persisted for a century and a half. I doubt the influence of the Truthers' creative inventions will last nearly so long.

Respectfully,
Myriad

There you go. Let's all move over to the history sub forum.

[Myriad]

There you go. Let's all move over to the history sub forum.


We could, if anyone were starting threads about 9/11 that concerned the history, instead of conspiracy theories.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[AJM8125]

My take on the whole thing:

Whereas the Truth Movement "membership" (for lack of a better term) has dropped off dramatically since peaking in 2006, the Truth Movement "leadership" (for really lacking a better term) still remains. It's the DRGs, The Richard Gages, The AJs, the ones who are making a living by preying upon the weak minded, filling their otherwise empty heads with nonsense. Those are the ones who should be not only debunked, but mocked and ridiculed at every turn.

What was once an average, but lucrative movement has been killed off by its own stupidity. The smart ones left in droves, leaving behind a core group of cretins, handjobs and teenaged internet warriors who, despite their enthusiasm, don't exactly pay the bills. That being said, which is more likely?:

1. It's time for the Truth Movement scumbags to pack it in, They've squeezed every penny from this cash cow and it's time to put this one to bed.

Or:

2. Much like the tobacco industry, The Truth Movement must adhere to the principal that there's one born every minute and must seek out new recruits, preferably ones that haven't graduated middle school yet.

That's why I think debunking is still relevant. My .02.

[KJC]

OP:

Same reason we still debunk astrology, homopathy, physcics etc...

So long as there is ******** around, even if it is ancient ********, skeptics will do what skeptics do.

[Dave Rogers]

There you go. Let's all move over to the history sub forum.

The History sub-forum is for discussions of what did happen. This one is for what didn't.

Dave

[Congruentruth]

After studying Mark Robert's work and wish to suggest the analogy that he is indeed a modern-day 'Sherlock Holmes'! Do you all agree?

Do not post off-topic and do not spam the forum with the same message over and over.

[Mr. Skinny]

After studying Mark Robert's work and wish to suggest the analogy that he is indeed a modern-day 'Sherlock Holmes'! Do you all agree?
You just asked the same question in another thread. It was off topic there and here.

Please stop.

[Havermayer]

I stopped caring about them a long time ago. Screw em.

[TheBigKahuna]

This is why: the fools are still at it.

http://www.ae911truth.org/info/88


Montana welcomes AE911Truth
— Richard Gage, AIA

3 Speaking Events and 2 Strategy Meetings Gather Patriot Groups and Draw 2 State Reps


The patriots are out in full stride and the ground is fertile in Southern Montana. Thanks to David Milak of Sacred Mysteries bookstore, we had three full speaking stops on 8/28, 8/29, and 8/30 in Bozeman, Livingston, and Emigrant, along with three articles, six ads, two radio interviews, a meeting with a 9/11-aware state representative, and two AE911Truth Mountain Region strategy potluck meetings.

We were joined onstage by one of our 30 structural engineers, Robert Merceau, PE, a 40-year structural engineer with a masters degree in Structural Engineering Science who has designed several high-rises. Bob gave the audience many insightful comments from his expertise and highlighted numerous fallacies in the NIST report on WTC7 and the Twin Towers. We had some very nice interactive exchanges that worked well with the audience.

Here's where it was held:
http://www.sacredmysteriesbookstore.com/

At least it wasn't on a campus around here.

[fourtoe]

http://www.ae911truth.org/newsletter/2009/09/img/RG_RM_small.jpg


What an awkward looking picture.

To be on topic: I posted why I do it but I forgot to mention another reason.

I strive to debunk 911 CTs for the ladies.

[Congruentruth]

From the above article: "In Bozeman, 131 people showed up, and 39 were either unsure or believed in the official conspiracy theory beforehand. Afterward none did. 100% again." seems to me whatever you are trying to achieve here is either totally ineffective or largely going unnoticed.
I think by trying to undermine people because they accept the possibility that something is true (which is the right of everyone) using derogatory remarks and generally demonstrating that mature debate is beyond your capabilities will prove in the long run to be extremely counter-productive
I'll be blunt - these people have a high public profile, you do not.
In your fervour to finger point trivialities - you have missed a very big picture indeed - such as the awarding of 150 million dollars a year to the 60,000 people who's health was destroyed but the highly contaminated dust around the WTC.
This came about through the constant lobbying of the 9/11 truth movement.
I would suggest your energies would be better directed to proving your patriotism by helping instead of arguing semantics with those who, by your own admission, are beyond help.
I would be interested in your mature responses only.

[BigAl]

such as the awarding of 150 million dollars a year to the 60,000 people who's health was destroyed but the highly contaminated dust around the WTC.
This came about through the constant lobbying of the 9/11 truth movement.

That claim is b******t. I live in Staten Island, the suburb of Manhattan with the largest number of victims and families of victime of 9/11, both first-responders and civilians. We have dedicated medical facilities here for people that need it.

There never has been a "Twoof" presence here for any reason, let alone in support of the victims. That goes for the rest of the city as far as I know. Tri and some of the other first responders here can comment about their experience.

The "Jersey Girls' played a big role but they were 100% engaged before Jones invented his magic claims or the world first heard the word "Truth" abused to meaninglessness.

[Congruentruth]

I am not going to repeat myself on this one - Mature answers only.

[T.A.M.]

From the above article: "In Bozeman, 131 people showed up, and 39 were either unsure or believed in the official conspiracy theory beforehand. Afterward none did. 100% again." seems to me whatever you are trying to achieve here is either totally ineffective or largely going unnoticed.
I think by trying to undermine people because they accept the possibility that something is true (which is the right of everyone) using derogatory remarks and generally demonstrating that mature debate is beyond your capabilities will prove in the long run to be extremely counter-productive
I'll be blunt - these people have a high public profile, you do not.
In your fervour to finger point trivialities - you have missed a very big picture indeed - such as the awarding of 150 million dollars a year to the 60,000 people who's health was destroyed but the highly contaminated dust around the WTC.
This came about through the constant lobbying of the 9/11 truth movement.
I would suggest your energies would be better directed to proving your patriotism by helping instead of arguing semantics with those who, by your own admission, are beyond help.
I would be interested in your mature responses only.

I am not going to repeat myself on this one - Mature answers only.

I'll give you a mature answer, but you should refrain from trying to dictate the posting content or "attitude" on a public forum.

1. Who has a high public profile?

2. The time for mature debate was 2006, and here, then, a lot of productive mature debate was had. It has essentially all been done, and those who remain here now tend to do so for the stupidity and paranoid insanity that is the remainder of the truth movement.

3. Nice try on the "first responders hurt during clean up" diversion. It is irrelevant to 9/11 CTs, but a very common diversion tactic used by truthers without significant points to make or debate.

4. Please show me, any LEGITIMATE source, that indicates that the awards for the first responders are owed IN LARGE PART (or any significant part really) to the actions of the truth movement.

5. I think you would be better served by focusing your legitimate desire to right wrongs on reality instead of the lies sold to you by the truther snakeoil salesmen.

TAM:)

[Congruentruth]

As I stated earlier. Mature posts only. If you think that I'm dictating anything here you are clearly wrong as proven in your posts.Your defensiveness is puzzling to say the least.Mature- its not an unreasonable request.

[Congruentruth]

Oh, and please, no BIG letters. Ranting isn't necessary.

[BigAl]

As I stated earlier. Mature posts only. If you think that I'm dictating anything here you are clearly wrong as proven in your posts.Your defensiveness is puzzling to say the least.Mature- its not an unreasonable request.

The "Truth Movement" had nothing to do with getting the necessary care to the victims of 9/11.

[Congruentruth]

Thankyou. But you are incorrect.The initial political lobbying of prime politicians was undertaken by the Truth Movement.Later under the auspices of We Are Change and 9/11 Responders Congress was lobbied and shortly after the Mayor of New York submitted the recommendation for the 150 million dollar help package.

[Congruentruth]

Christie Todd Whitman, however, was not punished for misleading New Yorkers that the air was safe to breath.

[Congruentruth]

Now, I am well aware that you are all tapping your keyboards frantically looking for contradictions.
But you see, this is where you make your greatest mistake.
You see every time you come in on someone that holds the truth position, they will let you rant and rave and be insulting because they know you are getting off on it.
Trouble is, that isn't what's important to them.
You go away all 'full of your britches' feeling victorious and they have a written testimony signed by you that you are nothing more than an egotistical zealot - which remains forever!
If you want to be taken really seriously then you must simply 'lay your table out' and not force things down peoples throats.
Never underestimate your opponent - they will use your weaknesses against you.
Now.Consider your replies please, try to be mature.

[MortFurd]

Good point. I have an answer which I think most here would feel is important in a continued validation of debunking. But I'd also like to know why others think what they do is relevant even though the 911 Truth movement is, for purposes, meaningless
**Snork**

1. Just last year, someone gave my father in law a 911 truther pamphlet. A translated version in German here in Germany.
2. I learned just last week that a fellow I know believes the US government carried out the attacks on 911. He's a nice guy, runs a jewelry shop here. I'd have never figured him to believe such non-sense.

The truthers still exist in the wild and are still gaining converts. So long as the crap is out there, somebody needs to be fighting it.

[Congruentruth]

"truthers still exist in the wild".
You sound just like Geobbels addressing the German people regarding the Jews.
You have to stop identifying these people as a creed, they are not.
They are proactive individuals from all walks of life and until you see them as this you will fall into the same traps that the Nazi's did -primarily thinking that you are in some way superior.This is false and it something you need to swallow if you wish to prevail.
You have weaknesses and this is where you need to look to strengthen your position.
There is no requirement on my part for you to agree - simply be mature

[BigAl]

"truthers still exist in the wild".
You sound just like Geobbels addressing the German people regarding the Jews.
You have to stop identifying these people as a creed, they are not.
They are proactive individuals from all walks of life and until you see them as this you will fall into the same traps that the Nazi's did -primarily thinking that you are in some way superior.This is false and it something you need to swallow if you wish to prevail.
You have weaknesses and this is where you need to look to strengthen your position.
There is no requirement on my part for you to agree - simply be mature

Sock puppet methinks.

Do not make sock puppet accusations in thread.

[A W Smith]

From the above article: "In Bozeman, 131 people showed up, and 39 were either unsure or believed in the official conspiracy theory beforehand. Afterward none did. 100% again." seems to me whatever you are trying to achieve here is either totally ineffective or largely going unnoticed.
I think by trying to undermine people because they accept the possibility that something is true (which is the right of everyone) using derogatory remarks and generally demonstrating that mature debate is beyond your capabilities will prove in the long run to be extremely counter-productive
I'll be blunt - these people have a high public profile, you do not.
In your fervour to finger point trivialities - you have missed a very big picture indeed - such as the awarding of 150 million dollars a year to the 60,000 people who's health was destroyed but the highly contaminated dust around the WTC.
This came about through the constant lobbying of the 9/11 truth movement.
I would suggest your energies would be better directed to proving your patriotism by helping instead of arguing semantics with those who, by your own admission, are beyond help.
I would be interested in your mature responses only.

Oh yeah their making so much headway. When it is brought to the public's attention that someone was stupid enough to believe that crap they were forced to resign.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090906/pl_nm/us_obama_environment_adviser_2

WASHINGTON (Reuters) – A White House environmental policy adviser who specialized in "green jobs" resigned on Sunday after an uproar over his previous affiliation with a September 11 conspiracy group.

[Congruentruth]

Sock puppet methinks.
Thankyou. A perfect demonstration of what I was talking about.
Unfortunately you will never be taken seriously by mature adults. Your arrogance and lack of even the basic critical thinking skills will simply guarantee your inevitable and embarrassing demise.
Not to worry - you are only playing at being warriors. Nobody knows you and never will!
It takes courage to protest against authority -something you will never understand in a million years.
Stay in your bedrooms girls,and play with your political Barbie Dolls.

[Congruentruth]

Nothing personal you understand:]

[Congruentruth]

Oh yeah their making so much headway. When it is brought to the public's attention that someone was stupid enough to believe that crap they were forced to resign.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090906/pl_nm/us_obama_environment_adviser_2

"On the eve of historic fights for health care and clean energy, opponents of reform have mounted a vicious smear campaign against me,"

This is simply a Republican backlash!They didn't like a nasty badge that he was seen wearing in an old video.

So they sacked the gardener -so what?

[Congruentruth]

**Snork**

1. Just last year, someone gave my father in law a 911 truther pamphlet. A translated version in German here in Germany.
2. I learned just last week that a fellow I know believes the US government carried out the attacks on 911. He's a nice guy, runs a jewelry shop here. I'd have never figured him to believe such non-sense.

The truthers still exist in the wild and are still gaining converts. So long as the crap is out there, somebody needs to be fighting it.

And just what do you call 'fighting it'? This forum?.... ok.

[A W Smith]

"On the eve of historic fights for health care and clean energy, opponents of reform have mounted a vicious smear campaign against me,"

This is simply a Republican backlash!They didn't like a nasty badge that he was seen wearing in an old video.

So they sacked the gardener -so what?

So what role does "the gardener" play in health care exactly? And the republicans are opposed to clean energy? citation please?Are you that stupid? they sacked him because he was a jackass truther. The lead in for all the headlines was the petition he signed.

[Congruentruth]

Ok guys. I'm not a 'twoofer' or truther or any other juvenile name you want to give it.
There is only one word that sums up your total idea of resistance here - PETTY.
I'm putting together a little memorandum noting how you have been misusing these forums.
How an anti free speech activist is using this as a platform against constitutional rights, how there is absolutely no discourse on these pages and how you - hiding behind your avatars - are actively undermining the American constitution.There is only one conspiracy here - and it is of your making.

[Congruentruth]

So what role does "the gardener" play in health care exactly? And the republicans are opposed to clean energy? citation please?Are you that stupid? they sacked him because he was a jackass truther. The lead in for all the headlines was the petition he signed.

Read again. Environmental policy officer.Green jobs.Some clues there I believe?

[Congruentruth]

"A White House environmental policy adviser who specialized in "green jobs" resigned on Sunday"

"resigned" being the operative word - "Sacked" is something completely different.

[A W Smith]

"On the eve of historic fights for health care and clean energy, opponents of reform have mounted a vicious smear campaign against me,"

This is simply a Republican backlash!They didn't like a nasty badge that he was seen wearing in an old video.

So they sacked the gardener -so what?

"A White House environmental policy adviser who specialized in "green jobs" resigned on Sunday"

"resigned" being the operative word - "Sacked" is something completely different.
Well you tell me genius! You brought it up that he was sacked.

[R.Mackey]

I'm putting together a little memorandum noting how you have been misusing these forums.
How an anti free speech activist is using this as a platform against constitutional rights, how there is absolutely no discourse on these pages and how you - hiding behind your avatars - are actively undermining the American constitution.There is only one conspiracy here - and it is of your making.

You've got a little list (http://www.angelfire.com/tv2/ping0/littlelist.html), eh?

The unintentional irony is staggering. Nobody here is "actively undermining the American [C]onstitution" nor are we "anti-free speech activists." That label applies to you.

Nobody here is complaining about the Truth Movement's right to free speech. We instead simply note that it is wrong. The Constitution enshrines American citizens's right to voice their own stupidity, yes, and nobody here is working to change that. Instead, we're trying to educate the rest of you, so that when you do speak, you don't make such fools of yourselves.

Not our problem if you don't like the message.

[fourtoe]

"truthers still exist in the wild".
You sound just like Geobbels addressing the German people regarding the Jews.
You have to stop identifying these people as a creed, they are not.
They are proactive individuals from all walks of life and until you see them as this you will fall into the same traps that the Nazi's did -primarily thinking that you are in some way superior.This is false and it something you need to swallow if you wish to prevail.
You have weaknesses and this is where you need to look to strengthen your position.
There is no requirement on my part for you to agree - simply be mature


I call Godwin's Law. I cannot believe people are still so uninspired that they are using "you know Hitler used post on forums like you guys" as an argument they feel so freaking righteous over.

Seriously, I spent a month lurking through threads from 2006 in this forum before I started posting to make sure I wouldn't rehash the same topics over and over.

I suggest you do the same, brah.

[LashL]

We were joined onstage by one of our 30 structural engineers, Robert Merceau, PE, a 40-year structural engineer with a masters degree in Structural Engineering Science who has designed several high-rises.


Gage must have added a time warp machine to his repertoire since his cardboard box meltdown/debacle. In July 2009, Marceau was described by Gage as an engineer with 30 years of experience, and less than two months later, he suddenly has 40 years of experience. Fabulous.

[Dave Rogers]

From the above article: "In Bozeman, 131 people showed up, and 39 were either unsure or believed in the official conspiracy theory beforehand. Afterward none did. 100% again." seems to me whatever you are trying to achieve here is either totally ineffective or largely going unnoticed.

It seems to me that the significance of this is that, in Bozeman, there was no dissenting voice available, When an audience is exposed only to one side of a debate, it's hardly surprising that they can be convinced that that side of the argument is the only side that has merit. It's the classic cult approach. The problem for the truth movement is not that it is unable to convince people of its arguments when afforded the opportunity to present unchallenged propaganda to a captive audience; it is that, when it tries to take the debate out into the real world, where there are counter-arguments to be heard, it turns out that those counter-arguments are the ones that actually fit the evidence.

I think by trying to undermine people because they accept the possibility that something is true (which is the right of everyone) using derogatory remarks and generally demonstrating that mature debate is beyond your capabilities will prove in the long run to be extremely counter-productive

This is a reasonable point, and one that's a major subject of dissent in the debunking community. The problem is, quite simply, human nature. When faced with a movement that starts from demonstrably untrue premises, and responds to sensible criticism of this by - in effect - accusations of complicity in treason; that makes false claims, admits these claims to be false, then reiterates them repeatedly; that attempts quite openly to censor any dissenting point of view; and that even makes accusations of treason against its own members, then it becomes a little difficult to take that movement seriously. From the point of view of convincing the undecided observer, ridicule can be highly effective, and when that ridicule takes the form of a reductio ad absurdam - which is quite commonly the approach used - it is even a valid line of reasoning. What it isn't likely to do is to change the minds of those who are already convinced there was a conspiracy, but since rational argument is unable to do so either, what exactly has been lost?

I'll be blunt - these people have a high public profile, you do not.

Well, no. At least, not on my side of the Atlantic. The most visible manifestation of the 9/11 truth movement in the UK has been in the form of the two BBC documentaries on the subject, both of which clearly concluded that the MIHOP and LIHOP flavours of conspiracy theory were entirely without merit, and that the only possible conspiracy was an after-the-fact one to cover up incompetence.

I would suggest your energies would be better directed to proving your patriotism by helping instead of arguing semantics with those who, by your own admission, are beyond help.

Two points here. Firstly, the debate rarely leads to the conversion of the faithful (though, as I've pointed out many times before, that conversion seems to be a one-way process), rather to the rejection of the truth movement by the undecided, who are clearly not beyond help. Secondly, what exactly is your basis for assuming that members of the debunking community do nothing to help those who need help in other areas? Do you imagine that posting on this forum is the only thing any of us do?

I would be interested in your mature responses only.

From your reaction to some responses that are clearly mature but do not agree with you, I suspect that you're being a little disingenuous there.

Dave

[Elizabeth I]

Thankyou. But you are incorrect.The initial political lobbying of prime politicians was undertaken by the Truth Movement.Later under the auspices of We Are Change and 9/11 Responders Congress was lobbied and shortly after the Mayor of New York submitted the recommendation for the 150 million dollar help package.

Names of these brave spokespersons? Copies of letters, memos, or op-ed pieces they wrote? Names of legislators or government administrators they contacted?

Any evidence at all? Any?

[jhunter1163]

Bravo, Dave.

[Sam.I.Am]

Gage must have added a time warp machine to his repertoire since his cardboard box meltdown/debacle. In July 2009, Marceau was described by Gage as an engineer with 30 years of experience, and less than two months later, he suddenly has 40 years of experience. Fabulous.

They decided to back date it to the date that he built his first tree house...

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4289/sycamore6028797.jpg

[Thunder]

"truthers still exist in the wild".
You sound just like Geobbels addressing the German people regarding the Jews.
You have to stop identifying these people as a creed, they are not.
They are proactive individuals from all walks of life and until you see them as this you will fall into the same traps that the Nazi's did -primarily thinking that you are in some way superior.

got some balsa wood? i can carve out a nice little fiddle for ya on my scroll saw.

poor thing.

:p

[triforcharity]

That claim is b******t. I live in Staten Island, the suburb of Manhattan with the largest number of victims and families of victime of 9/11, both first-responders and civilians. We have dedicated medical facilities here for people that need it.

There never has been a "Twoof" presence here for any reason, let alone in support of the victims. That goes for the rest of the city as far as I know. Tri and some of the other first responders here can comment about their experience.

The "Jersey Girls' played a big role but they were 100% engaged before Jones invented his magic claims or the world first heard the word "Truth" abused to meaninglessness.


I don't follow. I of course am lucky enough to not have any lasting effects from 9/11, other than nightmares. But, they arae substantially less than the months following the attacks.

Care to enlighten me a little more??
ETA:
Got it now!! This is laughable. I think Michael Moore's "sicko" made more of an impact on the first responders getting the medical attention that they need and deserve. I have NEVER, not even ONCE heard of the "Truth" movement sticking up for us. Hell, all they do is call us murders and liars. They couldn't give two ***** about our health, as long as they can milk the cash cow for all its worth.

[triforcharity]

"truthers still exist in the wild".
You sound just like Geobbels addressing the German people regarding the Jews.
You have to stop identifying these people as a creed, they are not.
They are proactive individuals from all walks of life and until you see them as this you will fall into the same traps that the Nazi's did -primarily thinking that you are in some way superior.This is false and it something you need to swallow if you wish to prevail.
You have weaknesses and this is where you need to look to strengthen your position.
There is no requirement on my part for you to agree - simply be mature

This is the only thing I will address, as the rest is just garbble to me.

They are a creed. Here is what dictionary.com says it is.

creed  /krid/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kreed] Show IPA
Use creed in a Sentence
See web results for creed
See images of creed
–noun 1. any system, doctrine, or formula of religious belief, as of a denomination.
2. any system or codification of belief or of opinion.

Pay attention to the hilited part. They have a system of beliefs and opinions, do they not?? Right. English 101 is dismissed for now.

Please point to me ANY part of the "TRUTH" movement that is PRO-ACTIVE, OTHER than lying and making money off of the deaths of 3,000 people. Show me ONE court that they have brought something to, and DIDN'T get laughed out of. Show me ONE law that has been enacted because of the "Truth" movement. You won't find any, because there aren't any.

People who think rationally and use good critical thinking skill ARE in FACT superier to the dolt of the TM.

Mature enough for you, or should I remove some of the sarchasm?

[triforcharity]

Thankyou. A perfect demonstration of what I was talking about.
Unfortunately you will never be taken seriously by mature adults. Your arrogance and lack of even the basic critical thinking skills will simply guarantee your inevitable and embarrassing demise.
Not to worry - you are only playing at being warriors. Nobody knows you and never will!
It takes courage to protest against authority -something you will never understand in a million years.
Stay in your bedrooms girls,and play with your political Barbie Dolls.

Wait, what?? You ask for mature posts only, them you come back with insults and putdowns?? What, are you above your own rules for some reason? Do YOU feel you are SUPERIOR to us that YOU don't have to abide by the rules??? Right. If you want to be taken seriously, please cut out the BS. Thanks,

[triforcharity]

"On the eve of historic fights for health care and clean energy, opponents of reform have mounted a vicious smear campaign against me,"

This is simply a Republican backlash!They didn't like a nasty badge that he was seen wearing in an old video.

So they sacked the gardener -so what?

Didn't Obama toss him?? Last I checked, Obama was a democrat??

[triforcharity]

Ok guys. I'm not a 'twoofer' or truther or any other juvenile name you want to give it.
There is only one word that sums up your total idea of resistance here - PETTY.
I'm putting together a little memorandum noting how you have been misusing these forums.
How an anti free speech activist is using this as a platform against constitutional rights, how there is absolutely no discourse on these pages and how you - hiding behind your avatars - are actively undermining the American constitution.There is only one conspiracy here - and it is of your making.


How, waait, What?? WTF are you talking about?? Did anyone prevent you from making your dirt-dumb ideas here public?? I believe not, as evidence that you are here, and posting.

How did we undermine the American Constitution?? You have the right to free speech, so do we. You have the right to post idiotic assumptions on an internet forum, and we have the right to tear it apart and make you look foolish. I believe MANY people who have gone before us and died have given you, and I, and everyone on this forum that right.

[triforcharity]

I would suggest your energies would be better directed to proving your patriotism by helping instead of arguing semantics with those who, by your own admission, are beyond help.

Um, what you say?? I am sorry I couldn't hear you over the sound of the radio in my station going off, telling me to jump in the firetruck and save someone life. Possibly even give my own in the meantime.

You makes assumptions. The problem with that is proven right here. I fight fire for a living. I also did in NYC, and almost gave my life saving others'. You wouldn't know patriotism if it punched you in the face and left a bruise and a note.

[Scott Sommers]

I posted this in the wrong place and have moved it.

[grandmastershek]

"truthers still exist in the wild".
You sound just like Geobbels addressing the German people regarding the Jews.
You have to stop identifying these people as a creed, they are not.
They are proactive individuals from all walks of life and until you see them as this you will fall into the same traps that the Nazi's did -primarily thinking that you are in some way superior.This is false and it something you need to swallow if you wish to prevail.
You have weaknesses and this is where you need to look to strengthen your position.
There is no requirement on my part for you to agree - simply be mature

if by "proactive" you mean spreading a cancer on rational thought, consciously or not, yes quite.

[grandmastershek]

Ok guys. I'm not a 'twoofer' or truther or any other juvenile name you want to give it.
There is only one word that sums up your total idea of resistance here - PETTY.
I'm putting together a little memorandum noting how you have been misusing these forums.
How an anti free speech activist is using this as a platform against constitutional rights, how there is absolutely no discourse on these pages and how you - hiding behind your avatars - are actively undermining the American constitution.There is only one conspiracy here - and it is of your making.

how are your rights being violated? you are freely expressing yourself. you have freedom of speech, not freedom from criticism. your 1st amendment rights in no way guarantee everyone must nod along and drink your kool aide. in fact, suggesting as such places you in a level of hypocrisy as you believe your rights trump anyone who disagrees.

[AJM8125]

how are your rights being violated? you are freely expressing yourself. you have freedom of speech, not freedom from criticism. your 1st amendment rights in no way guarantee everyone must nod along and drink your kool aide. in fact, suggesting as such places you in a level of hypocrisy as you believe your rights trump anyone who disagrees.

Not to mention that the US Constitution does not guarantee freedom of speech on the JREF Forums.

[grandmastershek]

in answering the OP, 9/11 truth is a social disease that has no true cure. there will always be elements that will support any and all conspiracy theories. the only treatment is to put out information and logic that shows the faulty premises upon which such thinking rests. sadly, these people are dumbing down children by making them think that academics act like steven jones and company, that honest debate is what they see the loose change clowns doing, and research is only accepting what confirms your prior beliefs. after all, isn't the JREF about education and countering intellectual fraud?

[grandmastershek]

Not to mention that the US Constitution does not guarantee freedom of speech on the JREF Forums.

well i would like to see that people are free to speak their minds. however, it seems truthers will never get that their rights don't apply at all times in all locations. they still think the "don't taze me bro" clown was within his rights, and even more recently that they have the right to block public roads because they have the freedom of assembly.

[cmcaulif]

Back in August 2006,
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=62568
Gumboot and others tried to answer quiries about the motivations of 911 conspiracy debunkers. They gave very pertainant reasons for the time, but 3 years later, are these points still relevant?

As I have said before, my observations now is that the 911 Truth movement is composed of ranting lunatics. No one listens to them. They can't get more than a handful of people out to a rally. Politicans I am familiar with laugh at them. I doubt anyone would even let most of them near their young children or pets.

Who cares anymore? And why would anyone care enough to put large amounts of time into the extremely impressive calculations and video presentations I see all the time on JREFF?

The topics that come up on the forum are occasionally interesting if you like physics or logic, but I don't think anyone can claim debunking is necessary or even relevant.

[aggle-rithm]

The topics that come up on the forum are occasionally interesting if you like physics or logic, but I don't think anyone can claim debunking is necessary or even relevant.

I certainly don't feel that it's necessary. The worst thing that could happen if we ignore such morons is that they could somehow remove themselves from the gene pool...not through dying but through rendering themselves terminally undateable.

[Thunder]

i believe it is very unfortunate, but because there are many Americans who are not familiar with the truthers, their tractics, their lies, and their endgame, it is necessary for folks like us, who have been following them and their ways from the very beginning, to be there when they pop up and try to spread their venom.

with great power and knowledge, comes great responsibility. :)

[Alferd_Packer]

If nothing else, this gives people a place to escape the Jesse Ventura idiots.

[cmcaulif]

I certainly don't feel that it's necessary. The worst thing that could happen if we ignore such morons is that they could somehow remove themselves from the gene pool...not through dying but through rendering themselves terminally undateable.

I disagree

Official lie slurper is the perfect way to address a date, it lets the ladies know where you stand on the desecration of our fundamental rights, and yet it's clearly suggestive second meaning will read loud and clear. :eek:

[grandmastershek]

i believe it is very unfortunate, but because there are many Americans who are not familiar with the truthers, their tractics, their lies, and their endgame, it is necessary for folks like us, who have been following them and their ways from the very beginning, to be there when they pop up and try to spread their venom.

with great power and knowledge, comes great responsibility. :)

Very true....I live in a resort town with a boardwalk. Periodically, we get all manner of people passing out their tripe to convince people of this or that. I make it a point to stop & ask the questions I know they will dance around & continue to ask that question until it becomes glaringly apparent that they have no viable answer. Luckily I have cell with internet access so if sources ever come into question they are just seconds away. I don't know if we have ever had twoofers up there, but I am always keeping an ear open. I am always hoping the local WAC will show up so I can shove their "peer reviewed" research up their asses, figuratively speaking of course.

[TruthersLie]

I certainly don't feel that it's necessary. The worst thing that could happen if we ignore such morons is that they could somehow remove themselves from the gene pool...not through dying but through rendering themselves terminally undateable.

Aggle.

I disagree. I do not believe the worst thing that could happen is that they will remove themselves from the gene pool.

I believe that too many folks have squeaked through public education with the barest levels of literacy, a self important ego and no ability to do any real research. Couple this with things like a slick looking movie and you have thousands of new "twoofs" who will spew the same crap, and then try to convert more.

Twoofs need to be actively and directly challenged to produce evidence to keep them from spreading the BS any further.

[Redtail]

Thankyou. But you are incorrect.The initial political lobbying of prime politicians was undertaken by the Truth Movement.Later under the auspices of We Are Change and 9/11 Responders Congress was lobbied and shortly after the Mayor of New York submitted the recommendation for the 150 million dollar help package.

If this were true would the truth movement have much more support from the 9/11 first responders?

[triforcharity]

If this were true would the truth movement have much more support from the 9/11 first responders?

Thats true. We support alot of things, Ie: The Tunnels to Towers Run. It is done every year, and gets alot of support from current firefighters from all over the USA.

If they were actually doing some good, they might get some support from the local first responders. To date, I have NEVER seen $.01 from the T(B)M to the first responder charities.

They are liars.

[aggle-rithm]

Aggle.

I disagree. I do not believe the worst thing that could happen is that they will remove themselves from the gene pool.

I believe that too many folks have squeaked through public education with the barest levels of literacy, a self important ego and no ability to do any real research. Couple this with things like a slick looking movie and you have thousands of new "twoofs" who will spew the same crap, and then try to convert more.


True...but it only seems to "stick" with people who are intellectually and motivationally challenged anyway, so it ends up not having much of an effect.

At least, it hasn't so far. We'll see.