For Uninvolved: Jewish communists caused anti-semitism

[gtc]

I find that claim unserious, for a large portion of Anti-Semitism itself from the 1920s was attributable to the hight proportion and visibility of Jews in the Communist movements and associated terrors. In other words, Anti-Communism rather than Anti-Semitism is absurd.

This new claim should probably be split to another thread where you can provide evidence that a) a large proportion of the Communist movements were Jewsih and b) this led to anti-semitism.

You can provide evidence for your claims, can't you?

[Uninvolved]

This new claim should probably be split to another thread where you can provide evidence that a) a large proportion of the Communist movements were Jewsih and b) this led to anti-semitism


Well, if there is need for proving the above, that can be done on a separate thread.

[drkitten]

Well, if there is need for proving the above, that can be done on a separate thread.

Or, more likely, it cannot be done, because it's absolutely untrue. (Anti-communism did not lead to anti-semitism; a simple check of the chronology disproves it.) If there were any actual evidence supporting your position, you could easily post it (or a link to it here).

But I suppose in light of the falsity of your claim, you're much better off running to another thread.

[woolfe99]

This new claim should probably be split to another thread where you can provide evidence that a) a large proportion of the Communist movements were Jewsih and b) this led to anti-semitism.

You can provide evidence for your claims, can't you?

I agree a mod should thread split this, and I'll leave it to them to do it.

For now, I would point out that when Hitler started his career as a "beer hall" agitator in 1919, in his speeches he breathed nary a word about anti-communism. Yet these speeches were rife with anti-semitism. It wasn't until some time in 1920, after he'd been making speeches for nearly a year, that he began railing on about communism, which he termed "judeo-Bolshevism." The evidence suggests that he picked up anti-communism after reading articles in Volkisch publications which were claiming that Jews predominated in the Bolshevik vanguard. Hence, it wasn't a supposed Jewish link with communism that caused him to be anti-semitic, but rather a supposed link between communism and jewry that caused him to become anti-communist. The entire argument that Nazi anti-semitism was caused by a link between jewry and bolshevism is thus the tail wagging the dog.

- Dave

[ddt]

In the "WW II Photo of Little Boy", poster Uninvolved made the claim that the high number of Jews in the communist movement caused anti-semitism in the 1920. He suggested himself this should be discussed in a separate thread. This thread is meant to discuss that claim.

Here are the relevant post fragments leading up to that claim:

Not much. He [Arno Mayer, ddt] is on to something with his "Thirty Year Crisis" theory, but he ruins it with his dogmatic Marxism. His attempts to portray the Holocaust as being motivated by Anti Communism rather then Anti Semitism is pretty silly.

I find that claim unserious, for a large portion of Anti-Semitism itself from the 1920s was attributable to the hight proportion and visibility of Jews in the Communist movements and associated terrors. In other words, Anti-Communism rather than Anti-Semitism is absurd.

This new claim should probably be split to another thread where you can provide evidence that a) a large proportion of the Communist movements were Jewsih and b) this led to anti-semitism.

You can provide evidence for your claims, can't you?

Well, if there is need for proving the above, that can be done on a separate thread.

Good luck substantiating your claim, Uninvolved. I've asked the moderators to move the relevant reactions.

[Cainkane1]

In the "WW II Photo of Little Boy", poster Uninvolved made the claim that the high number of Jews in the communist movement caused anti-semitism in the 1920. He suggested himself this should be discussed in a separate thread. This thread is meant to discuss that claim.

Here are the relevant post fragments leading up to that claim:









Good luck substantiating your claim, Uninvolved. I've asked the moderators to move the relevant reactions.
What this guy fails to make clear is the fact that most of the worlds Jewish population opposed socialism. To blame and punish an entire ethnic group for something like this is nothing short of absurd. Not to mention the fact that a persons political views should be free from punishment anyway.

[woolfe99]

Since you guys started a new thread, I guess I'll repost this here.

I would point out that when Hitler started his career as a "beer hall" agitator in 1919, in his speeches he breathed nary a word about anti-communism. Yet these speeches were rife with anti-semitism. It wasn't until some time in 1920, after he'd been making speeches for nearly a year, that he began railing on about communism, which he termed "judeo-Bolshevism." The evidence suggests that he picked up anti-communism after reading articles in Volkisch publications which were claiming that Jews predominated in the Bolshevik vanguard. Hence, it wasn't a supposed Jewish link with communism that caused him to be anti-semitic, but rather a supposed link between communism and jewry that caused him to become anti-communist. The entire argument that Nazi anti-semitism was caused by a link between jewry and bolshevism is thus the tail wagging the dog.

- woolfe

[Uninvolved]

Foreword

The employees of Holocaust Enterprise posting on this forum seldom exhibit the tiresome habit of reading thoroughly and comprehending the messages before answering them. The first posts following my

I find that claim unserious, for a large portion of Anti-Semitism itself from the 1920s was attributable to the hight proportion and visibility of Jews in the Communist movements and associated terrors. In other words, Anti-Communism rather than Anti-Semitism is absurd.

show, that this won't be different in this case either; nevertheless, let's give it a try.

First, the context. Dudalb posted regarding Arno Mayer:

His attempts to portray the Holocaust as being motivated by Anti Communism rather then Anti Semitism is pretty silly.

My comment added to this, that Anti-Communism just created Anti-Semitism.

Before more of you misinterpret my statement, let's see what it does not say:

- that the origin of Anti-Semitism is Anti-Communism

- that Hitler's Anti-Semitism can be explained by his Anti-Communism (I happen to have his very first "official" written profession/explanation of his position in form of an assessment regarding the relationship between the Socialistic Party of Germany and the Jewry, and he did not mention Communism at all; from 1919-09-16)

So, what does my statement stay:

1. that Jews participated in the Communism movements far-far over their proportion in the population,

2. that they not only participated but played the leading role, in the communist terror actions as well,

and

3. that these facts became obvious and contributed to and/or caused Anti-Semitism in many countries.

I will compile information proving these claims and post it (not immediately, for I am not living off posting here). But before, there are some basics to be spelled out.

As this issue has been touched on another forum, someone "jumped up" immediately, claiming that Communist and Jew are mutually exclusive, for Communists were and are not religious, i.e. no Jews. One needs to consider following:

- many revered Jews were/are not religious; let's start with Einstein

- it is not true, that all Communists were atheists, even though it is true, that almost all of them acted that way, at least outwards

- more than half of Israel's population is secular.

Moreover, the subject is the effect of the participation of Jews in Communism, and the people observing the events did not say or think "a secular Jew is doing this/that" but "a Jew is doing...".

[Thunder]

Ah, so if it wasn't for the Communists who were Jewish (a small minority), Europeans would have loved the Jews.

You know, that's like saying that if the Jews didn't kill Jesus, or just worshipped Jesus, the Europeans wouldn't hate them anymore.

Ok, fine. If the Jews stop being Jews, we will no longer be hated. But then along comes to the Nazis, who hate you if you even have one Jewish grandparent!!!!

I believe that we will always be hated. And it has nothing to do with anything we have done wrong.

Anti-Semitism is a mark of dishonor on those who are infected by it...not those who are victims of it.

[Foolmewunz]

Uninvolved,
If you meant to say,

"There may have been a number of people with anti-communist views who were pushed more towards and into anti-semitism because they perceived a lot of Jews in the ranks of the communists."

.. then why didn't you say it? You seem to have an adequate command of the English language. Perhaps if you'd stop baiting and start discussing you wouldn't have these little contretemps over your convoluted phrasing.

[ddt]

The employees of Holocaust Enterprise posting on this forum seldom exhibit the tiresome habit of reading thoroughly and comprehending the messages before answering them. The first posts following my
I get the impression we've all quite well understood what you wrote. The reactions you got thus far - especially by drkitten and woolfe99 - were quite adequate in addressing that. And this lengthy post of yours is just a set-up to shift the goalposts.

Let's first look at what you wrote originally:

I find that claim unserious, for a large portion of Anti-Semitism itself from the 1920s was attributable to the hight proportion and visibility of Jews in the Communist movements and associated terrors. In other words, Anti-Communism rather than Anti-Semitism is absurd.


First, the context. Dudalb posted regarding Arno Mayer:
Is irrelevant for interpreting your statement.


So, what does my statement stay:

1. that Jews participated in the Communism movements far-far over their proportion in the population,

2. that they not only participated but played the leading role, in the communist terror actions as well,

and

3. that these facts became obvious and contributed to and/or caused Anti-Semitism in many countries.
You've now left out two significant parts:
4. it has to pertain to the 1920s. December 31, 1929 is your cutoff date.
5. it has to be a large part of the anti-semitism in that period.


I will compile information proving these claims and post it (not immediately, for I am not living off posting here). But before, there are some basics to be spelled out.
Neither are we. Leave out the insults. ad-homs can be reported. This also applies to your repetitive mentions of "Holocaust Enterprise posting" and such.


As this issue has been touched on another forum, someone "jumped up" immediately, claiming that Communist and Jew are mutually exclusive, for Communists were and are not religious, i.e. no Jews. One needs to consider following:
And such comments will be corrected by anyone with some knowledge on the issue. Why don't you link to that other forum discussion?

[Thunder]

Foreword

The employees of Holocaust Enterprise posting on this forum seldom exhibit the tiresome habit of reading thoroughly and comprehending the messages before answering them. The first posts following my .

are you suggesting that we are not just private individuals with strong views...but are actually shills for some hidden organization?

that's like someone accusing you of being a member of a secret-hidden embryonic Nazi party.

are you part of a secret conspiracy to destroy democracy and turn the USA into a Nazi state?

[Uninvolved]

Uninvolved,
If you meant to say,

"There may have been a number of people with anti-communist views who were pushed more towards and into anti-semitism because they perceived a lot of Jews in the ranks of the communists."


I did not.

[Thunder]

Uninvolved- do you hate Jews?

Hast du die Juden?

[MaGZ]

Or, more likely, it cannot be done, because it's absolutely untrue. (Anti-communism did not lead to anti-semitism; a simple check of the chronology disproves it.) If there were any actual evidence supporting your position, you could easily post it (or a link to it here).

But I suppose in light of the falsity of your claim, you're much better off running to another thread.

Back in the 1930s and 1940s in America anti-Communism and anti-Semitism went hand in hand. In the Great Sedition Trial of 1944 held in Washington DC the defendants for the most part held these beliefs.

The Great Sediton Trial of 1944
http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Great_Sedition_Trial_of_1944

[MaGZ]

What this guy fails to make clear is the fact that most of the worlds Jewish population opposed socialism. To blame and punish an entire ethnic group for something like this is nothing short of absurd. Not to mention the fact that a persons political views should be free from punishment anyway.

What a lie. The Jews were neck deep in all forms and types of socialism the in late Nineteenth and early Twentieth century. Even Zionism was conceived as a socialist movement.

[MaGZ]

are you suggesting that we are not just private individuals with strong views...but are actually shills for some hidden organization?

that's like someone accusing you of being a member of a secret-hidden embryonic Nazi party.

are you part of a secret conspiracy to destroy democracy and turn the USA into a Nazi state?

If he told you it wouldn't be a secret.

[Thunder]

The Jews were neck deep in all forms and types of socialism the in late Nineteenth and early Twentieth century. Even Zionism was conceived as a socialist movement.

thats why Jews were begging to get into the USA and get the hell out of the worker's paradise?

and no, Zionism was NOT conceived as a Socialist movement. Theodore Herzl was no Socialist, nor were the great majority of the Zionist movement.

Israel is no more socialist then Britain.

[Thunder]

Back in the 1930s and 1940s in America anti-Communism and anti-Semitism went hand in hand.

as did anti-Capitalism go hand in hand with anti-Semitism in the Soviet Union during the 1950s and 1960s.

people will find whatever reason they want to hate Jews.

[Uninvolved]

So, let's start out with Soviet Russia. Keep in eyes, that the Jewish portion of the population was under 5%.

The Bolshevik "revolution" (which was in fact a coup) was engineered by mainly Jews, and the institutions were dominated by Jews.

The Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party in 1920 had 12 members:

Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian

i.e. three quarter of them were Jews.

The Council of the People's Commissars was:

President Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Foreign Affairs Tchitcherine Russian
Nationalities Djugashvili (Stalin) Georgian
Agriculture Protian Armenian
Economic Council Lourie (Larine) Jew
Food Schlichter Jew
Army & Navy Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
State Control Lander Jew
State Lands Kauffman Jew
Works V. Schmidt Jew
Social Relief E. Lelina (Knigissen) Jewess
Public Instruction Lounatcharsky Russian
Religions Spitzberg Jew
Interior Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Hygiene Anvelt Jew
Finance Isidore Goukovski Jew
Press Volodarski Jew
Elections Ouritski Jew
Justice I. Steinberg Jew
Refugees Fenigstein Jew
Refugees (assist.) Savitch Jew
Refugees (assist.) Zaslovski Jew

Churchill wrote in 1920 (he was a journalist that time):

There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian Revolution by these international and for the most part atheistic Jews. It is certainly a very great one. It probably outweighs all others. With the possible exception of Lenin, the leading figures are Jews. Moreover, the principal inspiration and driving power comes from Jewish leaders. Thus Tchitcherine, is eclipsed by his nominal subordinate Litvinoff, and the influence of Russians like Bukharin or Lunachasski cannot be compared with the power (Petrograd) or of Krassin or Radek - all Jews. In the Soviet institutions the predominance of Jews is even more outstanding. And the foremost, if not indeed the principal part in the system of terrorism applied by the Extraordinary Commission for Combating Counter-Revolution has been taken by Jews, and in some notable cases, by Jewesses.

Furthermore,

State Department document 861.00/1757, May 2, 1918 by U.S. consul general in Moscow, Summers: Jews prominent in local Soviet government, anti-Jewish feeling growing among population....

State Department document 861.00/2205, July 5, 1918 by U.S. consul Caldwell: Fifty percent of Soviet government in each town consists of Jews of the worst type.

From the Headquarters of the American Expeditionary Forces, Siberia on March 1, 1919, Chief of Staff, Capt. Montgomey Shuyler: It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since it's beginning guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type.

Schuyler again, on June 9, 1919 on the make-up of the presiding Soviet government: ...There were 384 "commissars" including 2 Negroes, 13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians, AND MORE THAN 300 JEWS. Of the latter number, 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial Government.

A study by the US Senate Judiciary Committee of anti-Jewish policies of the Soviet government, in 1965: before WW II 41.1% of the members of the entire Supreme Soviet had been Jews despite being a mere 2% of the population (I think this 2% is incorrect.)


More to come later.

[oldhat]

Shorter Uninvolved: Jews are to blame for the Holocaust.

[Foolmewunz]

Now that's more like it. Out in the open. No more shilly shallying about - let's just list the Jews!

Now what is it we're trying to prove, again?

That anti-semitism is the direct result of anti-communism after realizing that there were so many jews in the original ranks of the communists?

Or, anti-communism when the anti-semites realized that no matter how appealing some tenets of communism might have been, it couldn't be all that good if it was populated by so many filthy Jews?

Or just that Joos = Bad?

[Nick Terry]

Oh god, here we go again. I went through this with a nutzi named 'Frank' back in 2007 (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22174&highlight=krestinsky), and posted most of the relevant data on Bolshevik/Communist Party membership plus the names of those who belonged to the Politburo and the Central Committee, i.e. the correct data, and not this [rule 10] cherrypicked from jewwatch.com or judicial-inc.biz

If anyone wants to have fun with 'Uninvolved' over this, they should start with this item


Schuyler again, on June 9, 1919 on the make-up of the presiding Soviet government: ...There were 384 "commissars" including 2 Negroes, 13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians, AND MORE THAN 300 JEWS. Of the latter number, 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial Government.and ask him who the Chinamen were in the Bolshevik government.

The figure of '384 commissars' bears absolutely no relation to the actual structure of the Bolshevik regime around this time.

Uninvolved's source is reproducing White Russian antisemitic propaganda dating back to the time of the Civil War, which was swallowed by many in the West, who were already predisposed to see Jewish conspiracies everywhere, and who at this precise same time were avidly reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in its various editions.

[Thunder]

You know, they say that the Germans will never forgive the Jews for the Holocaust.

Tens of thousands of Jews sent to the Gulags, hundreds of Synagogues closed or destroyed, teaching Hebrew banned, Jews murdered left and right..

..and folks still blaim Communism on the Jews.

Perhaps how the World treats the Jews is God's test of mankind. I guess mankind has failed that test.

[Comsat Angel]

Hang on, I'm confused. Clifford's Tower in York was burned down when packed full of refugee Jews, IIRC.

But that was in the 14th Century. Who knew the English Jews invented Communism 500 years early!

[ddt]

Uninvolved- do you hate Jews?

Hast du die Juden?

Wenn das so wäre, möchte ich nicht wissen, was er met denen mache.

(nitpick: "hast" means [you] have; "hasst" means [you] hate)

[ddt]

Oh god, here we go again. I went through this with a nutzi named 'Frank' back in 2007 (http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=22174&highlight=krestinsky), and posted most of the relevant data on Bolshevik/Communist Party membership plus the names of those who belonged to the Politburo and the Central Committee, i.e. the correct data, and not this [rule 10] cherrypicked from jewwatch.com or judicial-inc.biz
Yes, but you didn't translate it to him. It's very naughty of you to post those lists of names in Cyrillic script, and even naughtier to give a link to census data in Russian. You do know that "revisionists" only read English? ;)


If anyone wants to have fun with 'Uninvolved' over this, they should start with this item

and ask him who the Chinamen were in the Bolshevik government.

The figure of '384 commissars' bears absolutely no relation to the actual structure of the Bolshevik regime around this time.
Since you didn't ask, I'll do it. :) Actually, Uninvolved, I'd like to see the whole list. You love lists, apparently, so cough up the list of 384 "commissars", with their ethnicity, and indication which 264 had come from the US. I mean, I knew of Russian emigrés in Switzerland and other European countries, but not in the US.


Uninvolved's source is reproducing White Russian antisemitic propaganda dating back to the time of the Civil War, which was swallowed by many in the West, who were already predisposed to see Jewish conspiracies everywhere, and who at this precise same time were avidly reading the Protocols of the Elders of Zion in its various editions.
So, in fact, you're saying that this kind of propaganda at most strengthened antisemitic feelings with people who were already antisemitic to begin with?

[Thunder]

So, let's start out with Soviet Russia. Keep in eyes, that the Jewish portion of the population was under 5%.

The Bolshevik "revolution" (which was in fact a coup) was engineered by mainly Jews, and the institutions were dominated by Jews.

The Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party in 1920 had 12 members:

Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian


why don't you prove to us that all of these Soviet leaders who you claim were Jews, actually had Jewish names and changed them.

you have no evidence and you have no proof.

[Uninvolved]

Judeo-Communism in Soviet Russia/Soviet Union, continuation

Note: one needs to understand, that the party and government were mainly the same; party commissars were the "ministers" and decisions made by the party leadership became laws.

Not only the top party organs were dominated by Jews bit lower echelons as well. The top Jewish leaders favoured Jewish stff, Jewish executors of the commands. For example the internationalist Trocky rejected any connection between himself and Jewry. He declared, that Russia was not mature enough yet to be governed by a Jew. Still, his appointees were mainly Jewish, like two of his three leading secretaries, the commander of his bodygard and a medical doctor as the vice "minister of war", who later became the Commandant of the Army.

From the heads of the Soviet Secret Police (originally named Cheka, later OGPU, then NKDV), only Yagoda was Jewish (his reign lasted from 1926 to 1936, until Stalin found him unreliable or ineffective or whatever form of candidate for execution).

There are contradicting statements regarding the proportion of Jews in these organs in general and in their leadership. I don't trust Wiki in any disputed question, but I don't know anything more reliable:

the proportion of Jews in general was 9%, in the "board of directors" 23%, in other mid- and high level leadership positions 16%.

Minutes of a meeting of the Political Bureau of the Central Committe on 1919-04-18:

Trockey reported, that Checka organs along the front, as well as the members of the Executive Committees and of the organs of the Central Soviets are made up of huge percentage of Jews, while their presence on the front is relatively low. Trocky suggested to reorganize the forces of the Party to counter the agitation among the soldiers of the Red Army caused by the above disproportions.

According to Ordsonikidse [sp?], the proportion of Jews in the state apparatus was six and half times greater than their proportion in the population (probably in 1927).

According to the Russian Jewish Encyclopedia, the proportion of Jewish students on universities in 1926-1927 was 15.4%, close to the double of their proportion in the cities' population. This was due at least partly to the exclusion of students from bourgois families, if they were not Jewish.

Jews made up 5.2% of the Party membership in 1922; nothing particular. However, their proportion on the 11th Party Congress among those with vote was 14.6%, amond those with the right to be elected 18.3% and among the elected in the Central Committee was 26%.

The Pravda published the names and pictures of the member of the Party Presidium in 1930; out of 25 members, 11 were Jews.

The leadership of the Gulags, in the country as well as on the individual locations, was overwhelmingly Jewish.

There is lots of more to this subject; I don't see any point in going into more details. The above is meant to show, that Jews appeared and acted in oppressive party and state organs far-far over their proportions in the population and this lead to arising of Anti-Semitism (or increasing, where it was there anyway). It is irrelevant from this aspect, that the victims too were often Jews. It is naivety to accept rationalism even today, for example in the United States, and it is even more so regarding the time 70-90 years back.

[Foolmewunz]

But what is your point, Uninvolved?

Jews were hated because they were so prominent in the communist hierarchy? This ignores the very well documented hundreds of years of anti-semitism that is Europe's history.

I don't think there are any serious historians who deny that there were Jews in the Soviet Regime. Further, I don't think that anyone short of the most idiotic "soft liberal" would try to deny the involvement of a number of them in the most horrific acts of Stalin (Yaguda being the most prominent of those, of course).

In fact, much of the armchair historian speculation that Stalin was a Jew is centered around the fact that he purportedly surrounded himself with Jews. Was this because Jews were better Stalinists through some sort of racial trait? Was this because Stalin was a secret Jew? Or was it because the intellectual hierarchy of the CP had a number of Jews.

But once again, .... What are you trying to prove?
Jews did bad things so the holocaust was okay?
Hitler wasn't a bad sort, he was just trying to root out communists and since Jews have a tendency to drift into communism, it was best to just wipe them all off the face of the earth?

So far, all you're working hard to prove is that there were Jews in the communist ranks, as if this was an end unto itself. For some people it is. For virulent anti-semites any evidence of Jewish involvement in anything is sufficient reason to distrust and despise that organization or group.

[ddt]

why don't you prove to us that all of these Soviet leaders who you claim were Jews, actually had Jewish names and changed them.
Of course, many Bolshewist leaders went by aliases as they were a target of the Czarist police - nothing to do with being a Jew or not.

Zinoviev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigory_Zinoviev), for instance, had as official name Radomyslsky. The name Apfelbaum is his mother's name.

His Jewishness obviously gave rise to anti-semitism. In 1924, there was a rumour in the UK that he had sent a letter to the CPGB, the Apfelbaum Letter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinoviev_letter). It not only led to the loss of Labour at the elections, but also to massive rioting against Jews in the UK, with synagogues burning and shop windows smashed. Sir Winston made a remark in his diary about perfidious Albion Jews.

Or something like that, if we have to believe Uninvolved. I wonder how many people at the time were aware he was Jewish. After all, Zinoviev had been plotting against that other, more well-known Jew in the Politburo, Trotsky.

[ddt]

Judeo-Communism in Soviet Russia/Soviet Union, continuation

Note: one needs to understand, that the party and government were mainly the same; party commissars were the "ministers" and decisions made by the party leadership became laws.

Not only the top party organs were dominated by Jews bit lower echelons as well. The top Jewish leaders favoured Jewish stff, Jewish executors of the commands. For example the internationalist Trocky rejected any connection between himself and Jewry. He declared, that Russia was not mature enough yet to be governed by a Jew. Still, his appointees were mainly Jewish, like two of his three leading secretaries, the commander of his bodygard and a medical doctor as the vice "minister of war", who later became the Commandant of the Army.

Before you post a new set of unsourced numbers and claims, what about responding to the challenges of the previous one? Where's the list with 384 commissars you claimed? Give sources for your lists. Have you read the thread Nick linked to? He's shown there that the rank and file of the Bolshewik party had no "overrepresentation" of Jews, and neither had the "lower echelons".

Oh, and it would help as well if you kept to received transcription.


There are contradicting statements regarding the proportion of Jews in these organs in general and in their leadership. I don't trust Wiki in any disputed question, but I don't know anything more reliable:
Depends also in this case which wiki page you look at.


There is lots of more to this subject; I don't see any point in going into more details. The above is meant to show, that Jews appeared and acted in oppressive party and state organs far-far over their proportions in the population and this lead to arising of Anti-Semitism (or increasing, where it was there anyway). It is irrelevant from this aspect, that the victims too were often Jews. It is naivety to accept rationalism even today, for example in the United States, and it is even more so regarding the time 70-90 years back.
Even if your numbers were true, you haven't shown any connection at all to rising antisemitism.

[ddt]

But once again, .... What are you trying to prove?
Jews did bad things so the holocaust was okay?
Hitler wasn't a bad sort, he was just trying to root out communists and since Jews have a tendency to drift into communism, it was best to just wipe them all off the face of the earth?

My first association when Uninvolved posted his first claim was with the German Historikerstreit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historikerstreit) - but then on acid. The Historikerstreit was started by Ernst Nolte, who claimed that Hitler's atrocities were just a reaction to the Stalinist terror.

[Thunder]

Judeo-Communism in Soviet Russia/Soviet Union, continuation


so what was the justification for the anti-Semitism that led to the Pogroms in Russia? this was long before the October Revolution.

how about the anti-Semitism that led to the Spanish Inquisition? and the expulsion from England? and the expulsions from the Holy Roman Empire?

what caused the Crusaders to murder all the Jews in Jerusalem?

oh, I forgot, the Jews killed Jesus. it all boils down to that right?

[Skeptic]

I DO wish they'd make up their mind. Either it was the evil jewish communists, out to destroy private property, who are the real cause of antisemitism, or else it is the evil jewish plutocrats, promoters of free-trade destruction of the workers, who are the real cause of antisemitism.

You can't have it both ways, you know.

Anyway, "uninvolved" seems to be the usual sort of holocaust denier: the holocaust never happened and the jews deserved it.

[MaGZ]

why don't you prove to us that all of these Soviet leaders who you claim were Jews, actually had Jewish names and changed them.

you have no evidence and you have no proof.

You do know Bronstein/Trotsky was a Jew.

That's Antisemitism 101.

[ddt]

The Central Committee of the Bolshevik Party in 1920 had 12 members:

Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian

i.e. three quarter of them were Jews.

You lifted this list from jewwatch.com (link (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-USSR-Jewish-Bolshevism-Bolsheviks.html))? And that hate site gives as source Times correspondent Robert Wilton, according to wiki an antisemite and proponent of blood libel?

From the link Nick Terry gave - specifically, this post - we get this list of names:
25 марта 1919 (VIII съезд РКП (б) )

ЦЕНТРАЛЬНЫЙ КОМИТЕТ. Ч л е н ы: Белобородов А.Г., Бухарин Н.И., Дзержинский Ф.Э., Евдокимов Г.Е., Зиновьев Г.Е., Калинин М.И., Каменев Л.Б., Крестинский Н.Н., Ленин В.И., Муранов М.К., Радек К.Б., Раковский Х.Г., Серебряков Л.П., Смилга И.Т., Сталин И.В., Стасова Е.Д., Стучка П.И., Томский М.П., Троцкий Л.Д.
К а н д и д а т ы: Артем Ф.А., Бубнов А.С., Владимирский М.Ф., Данишевский К.Х., Мицкявичус-Капсукас В.С., Смирнов И.Н., Шмидт В.В., Ярославский Е.М.

[...]

5 апреля 1920

ЦЕНТРАЛЬНЫЙ КОМИТЕТ. Ч л е н ы: Андреев А.А., Артем Ф.А., Бухарин Н.И., Дзержинский Ф.Э., Зиновьев Г.Е., Калинин М.И., Каменев Л.Б., Крестинский Н.Н., Ленин В.И., Преображенский Е.А., Радек К.Б., Раковский Х.Г., Рудзутак Я.Э., Рыков А.И., Серебряков Л.П., Смирнов И.Н., Сталин И.В., Томский М.П., Троцкий Л.Д.
К а н д и д а т ы: Белобородов А.Г., Гусев С.И., Залуцкий П.А., Милютин В.П., Молотов В.М., Муранов М.К., Ногин В.П., Петровский Г.И., Пятницкий И.А., Смилга И.Т., Стучка П.И., Ярославский Е.М.

Source: С.А. Месяц, ИСТОРИЯ ВЫСШИХ ОРГАНОВ КПСС. (online link (http://web.archive.org/web/20070902153522/www.auditorium.ru/books/478/doc_05.htm)).

That's quite another list, isn't it - to boot, it lists (April 1920) 19 members and 12 candidates. Just for an appetizer, Stalin isn't on your list. So, will you be so honest to count the differences - you can read Cyrillic, can you? - and admit your list was a forgery?

[Thunder]

You do know Bronstein/Trotsky was a Jew.

That's Antisemitism 101.

thats one. provide proof that the others were Jews.

[Thunder]

Yes, the 1917 Revolution had a nice number of Jews. But since then, the percentage of Jews in power and as members of the Communist Party shrank dramatically. By the mid-1920's Jews represented a very small minority of the Communist Party and of the Soviet leadership.

The Bolsheviks and Communists became a clear Russian boy's club. So blaim the *********** Russians for crimes of the USSR. Most of them happened once Jews became a very small portion.


"Of the 22 Politburo Bolsheviks working alongside Lenin from 8 March 1918 to 17 March 1919 (between the 7th and 8th congresses)[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-Blunden-14) as members or candidate members there were seven ethnic Jews: Joffe, Mikhail Lashevich[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-39), Sokolnikov, Sverdlov, Trotsky, Uritsky, and Zinoviev. Concurrently, there were nine Russians (Bukharin, Kiselyov, Krestinsky, Oppokov, Sergeyev, Alexander Shlyapnikov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Shlyapnikov)[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-40), Vasili Shmidt[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-41), Stasova, and Mikhail Vladimirsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Vladimirsky)[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-42)), three Latvians (Berzin, Smilga, and Stuchka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%93teris_Stu%C4%8Dka)), one Ukrainian (Petrovsky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigory_Petrovsky)[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-43)), one Pole (Dzerzhinsky), and one Georgian (Stalin).

The Second All-Russian Congress of the Workers', Soldiers', and People's Deputies' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Soviets) "Decree Instituting the Council of People's Commissars" of 17 October 1917 established the Narkomats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narkomat)[45] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-Narkomats-44),or People's Commissariats. These were to be coordinated by a central body, the Council of People's Commissars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_People%27s_Commissars), or, effectively, the cabinet of the Bolshevik government. Besides Lenin as chairman of the council and Gorbunov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Gorbunov) as secretary, it was to be composed of fourteen ministerial positions. These were occupied by fifteen officials called the People's Commissars (or Narkoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narkom)) – of whom only Trotsky was ethnically Jewish.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45) (The position of People's Commissar for Military Affairs was concurrently filled by both Vladimir Antonov-Ovseyenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Antonov-Ovseyenko) and Nikolai Krylenko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Krylenko), while no People's Commissar for Railways was temporarily appointed.)[47] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-46) Out of Lenin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lenin)'s 15 Peoples' Commissars (Narkoms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narkom)) in 1919, two were Jewish (Trotsky and Semyon Dimanstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semyon_Dimanstein)).[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

After Lenin's death, the title of the chairman of the Narkom passed to Alexei Rykov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexei_Rykov), an ethnic Russian.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45)[48] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-47) Among the 23 Narkoms between 1923 and 1930, there were thirteen Russians (including Rykov), five Jews, two Georgians (Stalin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin) and Ordzhonikidze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergo_Ordzhonikidze)), one Pole, one Moldovan (Frunze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Frunze)), and one Latvian (Rudzutak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yan_Rudzutak)).[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45) In the 1930s, there was one person of Jewish descent in the Politburo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo): Lazar Kaganovich (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-Herf-15)

According to the 1922 party census, there were 19,564 Jewish members of the Bolsheviks, comprising 5.21% of the total.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-Herf-15) The same year's figures for the 44,148 members of the Bolshevik party that had joined before October 1917 – the Old Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bolsheviks), as Lenin referred to them, which included those who had joined the Bolshevik Party during its massive growth phase between February and October 1917 [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-Kara-Murza-10)[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45) – indicated that 7.1% were ethnic Jews.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45) 65% were ethnic Russians.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45)

Among members of the Central Executive Committee of the Soviet Union (parallel to the Central Committee of the Communist Party) in 1929, there were 402 Russians, 95 Ukrainians, 55 Jews, 26 Latvians, 13 Poles, and 12 Germans – Jewish representation had actually declined from 60 members in 1927. [49] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-48)

Of the 417 Communists who constituted the ruling circles of the Soviet Union in the mid-1920s – as members of the Central Executive Committee, the party Central Committee, the Presidium of the Executive of the Soviets of the USSR and the Russian Republic, the People's Commissars, and the chairman of the Executive Committee – a mere 27, or just 6%, were ethnic Jews.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-Herf-15)

The numbers of Jews in important positions continued to shrink in the 1930s when Stalin had his old comrades Kamenev and Zinoviev executed while in prison, after a rigged trial in 1936.
Zinoviev and Kamenev had previously been expelled, in October 1927 and December 1927 respectively, from the top positions they shared with Stalin in the Soviet ruling elite. Leon Trotsky had concurrently been expelled from the Soviet Union in 1927 and was then assassinated in Mexico City (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexico_City) in 1940, by a Soviet agent, the Catalan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalonia) Spaniard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_people) Ramón Mercader (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram%C3%B3n_Mercader).

By 1940, and after his rapprochement with Hitler's Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact), Stalin had eliminated virtually all Jews from very high level government positions inside the Soviet Union.



----Based on the fact that the majority of Jews supported the more moderate and less revolutionary Mensheviks, one could argue that had Jews remained in control of the USSR, it would NOT have commited the horrible crimes that it did.

Keep in mind, the Mensheviks formed a Union with the Jewish Bund.

Blaming the Jews and ALL Jews for the crimes of the USSR is not only false, but shows clear irrational bigotry and a complete lack of understanding of the facts.

[Uninvolved]

Those, who want to digest more details regarding the involvement of Jews in Soviet Russia and Soviet Union, might try to read Solzhenitsyn's 200 Years and Jewry, Vol.2. His main complaint is not, that Jews participated far over their proportion, but the fact, that they have been and are trying to minimize, even to plainly deny their role - just like many of the posters on this very thread.

Anyway, Soviet Russia and Ukraine were not all. I go in a few details regarding only two countries; probably these were most affected by the raising of Communism in Russland.

Germany

1. The founders of the Communist Party of Germany in 1919 were Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht - both Jewish. Seven reports have been presented at the foundation of the party, only two of them by Nonjews.

They initiated the Spartacist uprising, which was struck down and Luxemburd as well as Liebknecht were killed off in a timely manner.

2. The leaders of the Communist Party following these two were Leo Jogiches (very short lived), Paul Levi and Ernst Thaelmann - all Jews.

3. The Spartacist uprising was followed by others, perhaps most prominently in Munich. The Bavarian Soviets were lead by Kurt Eisner, Ernst Toller, Gustav Landauer, Erich Mühsam and Eugen Levine; all Jews.

Hungary

This is particularly interesting, for the Jewry was highly integrated in Hungary.

The Socialists and Communists married in 1919 and took over the government; later this changed to pure Communists. They declared the Hungarian Soviet Republic and tried to fight against the Rumanians and Slovaks, who were intent on annexing larger pieces from Hungary.

They had not much success there, but they started a 100 days lasting "bloody red terror". All but one leaders and many participants were Jews or Halfjews. This event thoroughly changed how the general population viewed Jews. Following is from Wiki:

The sufferings endured during the brief revolution, and their exploitation by fascist and ultra-nationalist movements, helped generate stronger suspicions among non-Jewish Hungarians, and undergirded pre-existing anti-Semitic views.

Beginning in July 1919, officers of Horthy's National Army engaged in a brutal string of counter-reprisals against Hungarian communists and their allies, real or imagined. This series of pogroms directed at Jews, progressives, peasants and others is known as the White Terror.

At this point I suggest the critical readers to go back to post #8 and give another try to comprehend the essence of that and of the following posts of mine.

Finally, a note to those, who claim that the Jewish prominence in the Communist movements ended in the 1930's: that is plain BS. I did not go further, because the topic started in the context of Holocaust, but the Jewish dominance in the post-war communism in Europe (and in America) lasted into the 1950's and 1960's, depending on the country. Look up Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Rumania,...

A quote from one, who is supposed to have known it:

The only two non-Jews in the communist conspiracy were Chambers and Hiss...Every other one was a Jew and it raised hell with us.

[Thunder]

Germany

1. The founders of the Communist Party of Germany in 1919 were Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht - both Jewish. Seven reports have been presented at the foundation of the party, only two of them by Nonjews.

They initiated the Spartacist uprising, which was struck down and Luxemburd as well as Liebknecht were killed off in a timely manner.

2. The leaders of the Communist Party following these two were Leo Jogiches (very short lived), Paul Levi and Ernst Thaelmann - all Jews.

3. The Spartacist uprising was followed by others, perhaps most prominently in Munich. The Bavarian Soviets were lead by Kurt Eisner, Ernst Toller, Gustav Landauer, Erich Mühsam and Eugen Levine; all Jews.

Hungary

This is particularly interesting, for the Jewry was highly integrated in Hungary.

The Socialists and Communists married in 1919 and took over the government; later this changed to pure Communists. They declared the Hungarian Soviet Republic and tried to fight against the Rumanians and Slovaks, who were intent on annexing larger pieces from Hungary.

They had not much success there, but they started a 100 days lasting "bloody red terror". All but one leaders and many participants were Jews or Halfjews. This event thoroughly changed how the general population viewed Jews. Following is from Wiki:

The sufferings endured during the brief revolution, and their exploitation by fascist and ultra-nationalist movements, helped generate stronger suspicions among non-Jewish Hungarians, and undergirded pre-existing anti-Semitic views.

Beginning in July 1919, officers of Horthy's National Army engaged in a brutal string of counter-reprisals against Hungarian communists and their allies, real or imagined. This series of pogroms directed at Jews, progressives, peasants and others is known as the White Terror.

At this point I suggest the critical readers to go back to post #8 and give another try to comprehend the essence of that and of the following posts of mine.

Finally, a note to those, who claim that the Jewish prominence in the Communist movements ended in the 1930's: that is plain BS..

I have already shown you that as of the mid-1920's Jewish command of the Soviet Union's Communist Party was over.

Why don't you provide us with some sources for your quotes about all the Hungarian's Communist leaders were Jews.

And, again, how do you explain widespread anti-Semitism in Hungary BEFORE Communism? were they just psychic Magyars who could see the future?

Lets cut the BS. Jewish involvement in Communist parties and uprisings was an EXCUSE to further anti-Semitic laws and measures...not a genesis for them. Anti-Semitism in Europe stems from Gospel Jew-hatred, blood-libels, and the fact that Jews were limited to financial careers and prospered from them.

if Christian Europeans decided that ALL Jews had to be farmers, carpenters, and other tradesmen or low-skilled laborers, and were FORBIDDEN from banking and other high professiones, you'all would still hate us!!!

now please do me a favor and stop making excuses for the murder of my innocent relatives. none of them were Communists. my great-grand father was a tobacco farmer in eastern Slovakia and he was murdered by the Nazis and their loyal Slovak SS.

[gtc]

You lifted this list from jewwatch.com (link (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-USSR-Jewish-Bolshevism-Bolsheviks.html))?

You can tell its anti-semitic origin by the way it distinguishes between Russians and Jews. As if they were mutually exclusive.

[ddt]

Yes, the 1917 Revolution had a nice number of Jews. But since then, the percentage of Jews in power and as members of the Communist Party shrank dramatically. By the mid-1920's Jews represented a very small minority of the Communist Party and of the Soviet leadership.

The Bolsheviks and Communists became a clear Russian boy's club. So blaim the *********** Russians for crimes of the USSR. Most of them happened once Jews became a very small portion.

You're right in the last assessment. You're quoting a large portion of the wiki-article "Jewish Bolshewism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism)". There are lots of unsourced statements in there, often false. For instance, the sentence:
A high percentage of ethnic Jews in comparison to the percentage of the total population took an active part in Bolshevik movement and revolutionary leadership before the revolution and for years after.
is not substantiated by the rest of the section. For instance, it states:
According to the 1922 party census, there were 19,564 Jewish members of the Bolsheviks, comprising 5.21% of the total.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-Herf-15) The same year's figures for the 44,148 members of the Bolshevik party that had joined before October 1917 – the Old Guard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bolsheviks), as Lenin referred to them, which included those who had joined the Bolshevik Party during its massive growth phase between February and October 1917 [11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-Kara-Murza-10)[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45) – indicated that 7.1% were ethnic Jews.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45) 65% were ethnic Russians.[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Bolshevism#cite_note-deut-45)
The latter two numbers illustrate the problem with this statement. Jews made up 4% of Czarist Russia, Russians made up 44%. So, these numbers reflect the absence of other minorities rather than over-representation of Jews. When you further take into account that Jews made up a much larger percentage of both the urban population and of the literate population, then Jews were under-represented in the Bolshewik ranks.

Focusing on, say, the Politburo or the Central Committee is a fallacy. Who gets there, in such a small gremium, is statistically insignificant.

(with thanks to Nick Terry who put all this forth in the ThePhora thread he linked to)

However, Uninvolved has not yet made his case even here. The lists of names he's given us are fabrications. His claim his about the real percentages of Jews in the communist movement, not on alleged percentages put forth in crude lies. So, instead of moving on to another country, he should first present the real lists and give us the percentages.

[ddt]

What this guy fails to make clear is the fact that most of the worlds Jewish population opposed socialism. To blame and punish an entire ethnic group for something like this is nothing short of absurd. Not to mention the fact that a persons political views should be free from punishment anyway.

Let me start to say that I agree 100% with your last two sentences. However, I wouldn't say the first, at least not on the European continent - and in the US, socialism never had enough traction that it turned into a mass movement.

In Czarist Russia and Poland, the biggest Jewish organization was the Bund. Zionism was dominated by the Labour Zionists. There are many prominent Jews in the socialist movement: Henri Polak, founder of the first Dutch trade union, David Wijnkoop, founder of the Dutch SDP, the forerunner of the communist party, Eduard Bernstein, founder of the German SPD, Rosa Luxemburg, and Leon Trotzky, just to name a few off the top of my head. Marx himself had Jewish heritage. And it is obvious the the emancipatory message of socialism had a great appeal to Jews, who had been discriminated for centuries. It wouldn't surprise me at all if there was a higher percentage of Jews sympathetic to socialism than in the whole population.

However, the issue is not socialism, but communism. Uninvolved used the word "communist", so we must first explore what this word means.

The term "communism" was not in wide use before the Russian November revolution. It had been used by Marx himself in the title of his Communist Manifesto, and as the ultimate stage in his theory, the classless society; it had been used by some other fringe left movements in the 19th Century, and it had been used by the Paris Commune of 1871. But the mainstream labour movement called itself "socialist" - such as the German SPD, the Socialist Party of Germany - or "social-democrat" - such as the Dutch SDAP, the Social-Democrat Workers Party.

Around the turn of the century, a parting of the spirits within the socialist movement began to take place, between the reformists who purely sought to reach a socialist society through parliamentary means and stepwise improvements - e.g., Bernstein and his revisionism - and the revolutionaries who adhered to the Marxist theory of proletarian revolution - e.g., Luxemburg. However, the European socialist parties remained united, despite internal differences, until 1918. There were two exceptions to this.

The first is the Dutch SDAP. It split at the Deventer Congress of 1909 roughly over the above lines, and the revolutionary wing, led by Wijnkoop, founded the SDP - the social-democrat party. Only after the Russian Revolution would they change their name to CPH and subsequently CPN - Communist Party of the Netherlands - and later align themselves to Moscow. They would obtain 2 seats out of 100 in Parliament in the 1920s. Ironically, in November 1918, when there was unrest among the Dutch troops and in the Rotterdam port, the leader of the reformist SDAP, Troelstra, thought the time had come, and proclaimed the revolution from the stairs of the Rotterdam town hall, and the next day went to Parliament and held a speech in which he announced to his colleagues the revolution had broken out. That is a comprehensive account of the planning that went into Troelstra's revolution; needless to say, nothing came of it.

The second exception is the Russian social-democrat party. At their 1903 London party congress, Lenin split the party over, in effect, his Vanguard theory. This theory meant that the party had to be a lean, well-oiled organization that prepared for the revolution and would cease the opportunity to enact revolution well before the proletariat would have reached the right level of consciousness. So, whereas Bernstein and others adapted Marxist theory by abolishing the proletarian revolution, Lenin adapted it by speeding up the revolution to a point that a vanguard was able to seize power and transform the bourgeois society into a communist one.

Lenin's faction became known as the Bolsheviks, as his faction happened to have a majority at a vote over this issue. The other faction became known as the Mensheviks (the minority), and contained reformists and orthodox revolutionaries alike.

The Russian March revolution in 1917 was a spontaneous, popular revolution against the Czarist government. The Czar was deposed, and replaced by a weak provisional government, first bourgeois, later led by Kerensky's Social Revolutionaries and supported by the Mensheviks. The Bolsheviks came to dominate the soldiers' and workers' councils, the Soviets, and in November staged their revolution - indeed, more a coup d'état than a revolution - and took power. Four years of civil war ensued between the Bolshewiks and the various "Whites" and interventionist foreign forces, in which the Bolshewiks prevailed. The Bolshewiks renamed their party into the Communist Party in 1918.

In November 1918, revolution broke out in Germany, which warrants a post of its own. In Spring 1919, in Hungary a coalition of socialists and communists took power, and came to be dominated by the communists led by Bela Kun. They were defeated by Horthy.

This wave of revolutions and talk of revolution made the big socialist parties, where the differences in opinion had already been exacerbated over support for the Great War, split. The left wings that split off coined themselves as Communist Parties to distinguish themselves. In due course, they would get aligned to the Moscow line through the Komintern, the Third International that the CPSU had founded.

However, we've seen that there were in fact now three strands within Marxist thought:
1) the reformists
2) the orthodox revolutionaries
3) the Leninists
and before the Russian revolution, Leninist thought had in fact little support outside his own party. The German Communist Party is a good case in point. Rosa Luxemburg, one of its founders, was the most ardent opponent of Lenin's Vanguard theory, and it certainly didn't tow Moscow's line in the beginning and was certainly not Leninist. The Dutch CPN is another example of this - as we've seen, it was founded well before the Russian Revolution. In other cases, communist parties were founded on initiative and with support from Moscow.

Fragmentation in the left movement became even greater with small movements such as Pannekoek's council communism and Trotskyism, which founded their own (fringe) parties.

So, to conclude this essay, my question to Uninvolved is: who do you consider a communist? Is that the Bolshewiks and their supporters - so group (3) above - as seems from your first post on this which focused on the Russian situation - or also those in group (2) which called themselves communists?

[Thunder]

So, to conclude this essay, my question to Uninvolved is: who do you consider a communist? Is that the Bolshewiks and their supporters - so group (3) above - as seems from your first post on this which focused on the Russian situation - or also those in group (2) which called themselves communists?

All these different groups takes us away from the real point: all the main Communists were Juden!!! therefore, the Holocaust was kinda ok.

I believe this is the point he is trying to make.

[Thunder]

You can tell its anti-semitic origin by the way it distinguishes between Russians and Jews. As if they were mutually exclusive.

To be fare, it was strict Soviet policy to label Jews as a seperate nationality right up until 1992.

[ddt]

There's a lot of misconceptions about the German Revolution of 1918/9, foremost about the so-called Spartacist Uprising - which Uninvolved duly repeats. And where Uninvolved in his claim speaks of "Communist movements and associated terrors", it's worth looking at from whom the terror came.

In 1914, the German SPD decided to vote with the bourgeois parties in the German Reichstag supporting the war - although only shortly before that, all socialist parties of the Second International had pledged to act against a war, should it break out. Only a small group of delegates - 20 at most - voted against the various motions for war bonds. They were kicked out of the party and formed their own party, the USPD, the Unabhängige (Independent) SPD. Within the USPD, a small group, the Spartacist League, also openly agitated against the war. Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht, the two best-known Spartacists, spent most of the war in jail just for that. Neither the USPD, nor the Spartacists had an organization at that time that matched that of the SPD, the biggest and best organized socialist party in the world, nor anything approaching its size.

In November 1918, collapse on the Western front was imminent. Hindenburg and Ludendorff made this clear to the Kaiser. An MP - a politician, not a soldier! - was sent to the French to surrender. The Kaiser fled to Holland. At the same time, revolution broke out in Kiel among sailors who refused to sail. The revolution spread to all German cities in a few days. Chancellor Max von Baden handed his post to Friedrich Ebert, the leader of the SPD. At the same time, Scheidemann (SPD) and Liebknecht, released from jail, proclaimed the republic and instituted a 6-men Rat der Volksbeauftragten (Council of People's Commissars), consisting of 3 SPD and 3 USPD. Ebert was chairman.

The hundreds of thousands of people on the street weren't just USPD supporters. They were as much, or more, SPD supporters and in fact, they expected that the split - caused by the war issue - would be mended again. The mass demonstrations and strikes were organized by the "Revolutionäre Obleute", workers' representatives in companies. This was the middle cadre of the SPD and USPD. These people were schooled that one day the revolution would come, and now it was there.

The leadership of the SPD, however, had succumbed to the establishment. They had been lauded for their cooperation in the war by the other parties. Ebert now had to choose between his role of Chancellor or that of People's Commissar. He chose the first, and he called Groener, the new Commander in Chief. Could he count on the army? Yes, said Groener, but no revolution, keep the old order, the old Empire only without a Kaiser. Ebert agreed, and thanked Groener. The Chancellor thanked the General, and that's indicative of the rest. We'll see what Groener's word meant at the end.

That telephone call signified the end of the revolution. It was stopped in its tracks and betrayed by its own leader, or rather, by the man who they thought was their leader, the leader of the party that had taught them that one day the proletarian revolution would overthrow the capitalist order and institute the dictatorship of the proletariat, the next stage in Marxist theory. Only the people on the street didn't realize it yet. It is only slight exaggeration to say that there, also, the doom of the Weimar republic was cast, even before it was born.

Ebert, Scheidemann and Noske only played the part of People's Commissar. Meanwhile, Noske saw to it that army units came to Berlin to quell the revolutionary masses. Since there weren't enough standing army units anymore, he also hired Freikorps, bands of discharged soldiers that were right-extremist and virulent anti-revolutionary, and even helped organize these bands. The Freikorps would taste their first experience of the terror they'd later instill from the ranks of the SA and the SS.

The first confrontation came in December, when there was a minor quibble concerning a company of sailors that had come from Kiel to Berlin. Noske ordered an army unit to move in on them and to shoot. The first victims of the revolution were not capitalists, were not representatives of the old order, but they were revolutionaries - and they hadn't even raised their arms.

Meanwhile, the Spartacists decided to move out of the USPD. On New Year's Eve, they founded the KPD, the Communist Party. By that time, their leaders Liebknecht and Luxemburg were relentlessly chased by members of the Freikorps that had closed in on Berlin, and had to move house every day. Nevertheless, they managed to publish a newspaper in which they exposed Ebert's duplicity. For the rest, they had no organization, no base, and lost themselves in endless disputes. And neither had the USPD. And neither the Obleute who could organize the masses. The revolution lacked both vision and determined leadership.

The second confrontation came in January, when the SPD leadership fired the Berlin police commander. Half a million men went to the street to protest it. Noske now ordered the amassed army units and the Freikorps into the city to quell all revolt. The masses, which had armed themselves by this time, were of course no match for the troops, and were massacred. It is a myth that this was a "communist uprising"; it was organized by the same Obleute who organized the November demonstrations. The KPD leadership had no part in it; they were still busy drafting their program of principles. Liebknecht and Luxemburg were murdered by Freikorps members; Luxemburg's body was found weeks later in the Landwehrkanal.

Noske's murderous thugs then moved to clear other German cities. In April, it was Munich's turn. There, the revolution had been carried all along by a coalition of SPD and USPD, which had proclaimed a Räterepublik (Council republic). Only near the end, the government of that republic collapsed and was carried for the last two weeks by the communist Levine. In July, the Ruhr area was "pacified" and the revolution was over.

By that time, 30,000 people had been killed. Ebert and Noske had had 30,000 of their own supporters killed because they followed the words and promises of their own party. To convince yourself they were their own supporters, just look at the election results of February 1919; only 5% voted USPD. The SPD leadership had "restored order", but not to their own advantage, but for the old order. The Imperial civil servants which were suspicious of this new-fangled democracy were still there and, above all, the army. The SPD had betrayed the revolution, had betrayed its own principles, and would shortly be betrayed by those whom they had served.

The 1919 elections had resulted in the so-called "Weimar coalition" of SPD, the left-liberal DDP and the catholic Zentrum parties. However, that is another myth about interwar Germany. Their coalition partners would shortly betray the SPD.

In 1920, the right-wing adventurer Kapp attempted a coup, with the support of some army units. The DDP and Zentrum ministers complied with Kapp's putsch. Ebert, who now was president, again called Groener, with the order to suppress Kapp's units. Groener's answer was clear: "Heer schiesst nicht auf Heer" - soldiers don't fire on soldiers. The SPD ministers fled to Dresden and then to Stuttgart, and in the end thought of their constituency. They proclaimed a general strike, which was so successful that nearly immediately Kapp lost the ability to cable orders to his units, and within a week, the coup was over.

Needless to say, Kapp and his cronies weren't prosecuted for their betrayal, as much as Liebknecht's and Luxemburg's murderers went unpunished, and later, Hitler got very lightly punished for his coup. The masses in the street, however, were again fired upon by orders from the SPD leadership.

At the subsequent elections, the USPD had a one-time success of 20%, and the SPD lost. Zentrum and DDP allied with the anti-democratic DVP, and would never invite the SPD back into the coalition. The "Weimar coalition" had lasted a full year. The SPD, or rather their voters, had saved the republic, but their former coalition partners distrusted them, and the reactionaries outright hated them and propagated the Dolchstosslegende, the backstab legend. After all, politicians had signed the surrender, remember!

The SPD wouldn't show spine again until the Enabling Law of 1933, but by then, it was far too late. In 1918, they had the opportunity to change Germany and make a thorough break with the imperial authoritarian structures, but they were too chicken to pull it off. Instead, they hired, trained and fielded the same thugs that would bring to power an even bigger evil. They had brought terror to the German streets. The blood of 1918/9 is still on their hands.

It is now also clear why the myth of the "Spartakist uprising" came into the world. In due time, the KPD came into the fold of the Komintern, and the story of a heroic, though unsuccessful revolution attempt fits better in the Leninist framework. The SPD needed the myth to obscure the fact that it hired proto-nazis to murder its own voters. And for the rest of the political spectrum, it also is much nicer to say that a small bolshewik rebellion was quelled than that big masses were murdered.

Everyone belies what happened in those days: a revolution betrayed by its own leaders. In the words of Sebastian Haffner:
Deutschland krankt an der verratenen Revolution von 1918 noch heute.
(even today, Germany suffers from the betrayed revolution of 1918).

[ddt]

1. The founders of the Communist Party of Germany in 1919 were Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknecht - both Jewish. Seven reports have been presented at the foundation of the party, only two of them by Nonjews.
Evidence - of those seven reports? And are you surprised? Rosa Luxemburg was one of the most prominent socialists at the time.

ETA: evidence that Karl Liebknecht was Jewish?


They initiated the Spartacist uprising, which was struck down and Luxemburd as well as Liebknecht were killed off in a timely manner.
Myth - see my previous post.


2. The leaders of the Communist Party following these two were Leo Jogiches (very short lived), Paul Levi and Ernst Thaelmann - all Jews.
And Ernst Däumig, Ernst Meyer, Heinrich Brandler, August Thalheimer, Hermann Remmele, Ruth Fischer, Arkadi Maslow and Philipp Dengel. They were all chair(wo)men of the KPD in the 1920s. Your sources are very selective. Hint: go to the German wiki pages of these people. They have the full list of KPD chairmen at the bottom.

ETA: evidence that Jogiches and Thaelmann were Jewish?


3. The Spartacist uprising was followed by others, perhaps most prominently in Munich. The Bavarian Soviets were lead by Kurt Eisner, Ernst Toller, Gustav Landauer, Erich Mühsam and Eugen Levine; all Jews.
And of those, only Levine was a communist.


Hungary

<snip>

A quote from one, who is supposed to have known it:

The only two non-Jews in the communist conspiracy were Chambers and Hiss...Every other one was a Jew and it raised hell with us.
No source? I googled for the phrase, and the first hit was Stormfront.

What about Sándor Garbai? He was the head of state, and a gentile. And not on your list. Another fail.

ETA: some context where the above phrase comes from:
As Richard Nixon recalled in 1971, "The only two non-Jews in the
communist conspiracy were Chambers and Hiss...Every other one was a Jew
and it raised hell with us."

(Statement of President Nixon as recorded at the White House on
audio-tape and released by the National Archives in 1999. [Source: N.Y.
Times, Oct. 7, 1999 and Newsweek, Oct. 18, 1999, p. 30]. Nixon's
reference to "two non-Jews" is to Whittaker Chambers and Alger Hiss).

I didn't know Nixon was so interested in 1919 Hungarian politics. :rolleyes:


At this point I suggest the critical readers to go back to post #8 and give another try to comprehend the essence of that and of the following posts of mine.
Huh? By this time, the critical reader will have seen that you only propagate lies from Stormfront and Jewwatch.


Finally, a note to those, who claim that the Jewish prominence in the Communist movements ended in the 1930's: that is plain BS. I did not go further, because the topic started in the context of Holocaust, but the Jewish dominance in the post-war communism in Europe (and in America) lasted into the 1950's and 1960's, depending on the country. Look up Czechoslovakia, Poland, Hungary, Rumania,...
Bring it on. The more lies, the more the ludicrousness of your thesis can be exposed. :p

[Uninvolved]

ddt,

I appretiate your being a hard worker; you did a good job. There is only one problem: you entirely missed the essence.

It is irrelevant how far the KPD, the German Communist Party and the Socialdemocrats organized and lead the revolution, because the SPD itself became pretty much communist and Jewish dominated before. This was just the time, when the adherents of pure communism and social democratism were struggling for the leadership against each others and then separating.

The following citations are from Roots of hate: anti-semitism in Europe before the Holocaust, written by William Brustein.

Between 1881 and 1914, 43 of the 417 Social Democratic Party deputies elected to the German Reichstag were Jews, representing a rate 10 times the Jewish proportion of the German population. Anxiety about socialist popularity and Jewish presence within the socialist movement became especially apparent in the wake of the stunning SPD victory in the 1912 Reichstag elections. In these elections, the number of SPD deputies rose from 43 to 110, giving die party the largest share of seats in the Reichstag. The SPD's electoral landslide, and the fact that twenty of the twenty-five Jews elected to the Reichstag belonged to the Social Democratic Party, caused considerable consternation among Germany's anti-Semitic and conservative camps.

If German anti-Semites sought to reinforce the picture of immigrant Jews as adherents of revolutionary socialism, they had only to point to the central role that eminent Eastern European Jews played in the German revolutionary socialist movement. Within the SPD, the list of well-known Eastern and Central European Jews holding key positions included Eugene Levine, Wilhelm Buchhol:, Leo Jogisches, Karl Radek, Alexander Stein, Alexander "Parvus" Helphand, Adolf and Heinrich Braun, Max Beer, Friedrich Stampfer, and Rosa Luxemburg. Moreover, within the SPD, the Russian and Polish immigrant Jews tended to gravitate toward the party's extreme left wing. No single individual personified the purported Jewish affinity for extreme revolutionary socialism better than the renowned Polish-Jewish immigrant Rosa Luxemburg.

Re the Munich Revolution:

On April 7, 1919, a Soviet Republic was proclaimed in Munich that included at its helm four Jews - Ernst Toller, Gustav Landauer, Erich Muehsam, and Arnold Walder. A second Soviet Republic succeeded the first and included among its leaders three Jews - Eugen Levine, Tovia Axelrod, and Ernst Toller. In Berlin, seven Jews were among the founding party members of the Spartacists and the KPD. Four of these Jews - Rosa Luxemburg, Leo Jogiches, Paul Levi, and August Thalheimer - were elected to the KPDs eleven-member Central Committee. Bavaria and Berlin were not the exceptions. We find leftist Jews taking key roles in the revolutionary unrest in Magdeburg, Dresden, Bremerhaven, Kiel, the Ruhr, and the Palatinate. The notable Jewish presence in the revolutionary turmoil of 1918 and 1919 and in the establishment of the Weimar Republic was a godsend for the German anti-Semitic crusade.

Though the threat of a revolutionary socialist takeover, which had seemed so likely in 1919 and 1920, dissipated, and the number of Jews serving in key government positions dropped considerably, the association of Jews with revolutionary socialism and with the Weimar system remained steadfast in the
minds of many Germans.

Likewise, in Soviet Russia and particularly in Ukraina, the population noticed the high proportion and role of Jews. The proportion of Jews in the Kiev Cheka was two-third (according to Solzhenitsyn); the people were thinking less of who gave the command but whom they saw executing it. Later reduction of the Jewish participation did not reverse the perception.

Again Brustein:

The electoral victory of the French Popular Front in 1936 catapulted French political anti-Semitism to center stage. No single occurrence, save the Dreyfus Affair, did more to ignite French anti-Semitism and to unite its bickering factions than the coming to power of the Popular Front, led by the Jewish socialist leader Leon Blum.

Re Sándor Garbai: did your search result not show the joke about him being there only to sign the death sentences?

Re Nixon and the Jews in the USA, something evaded your attention: this thread is about the international Judeo-Communism and its effect on Antisemitism.

[Thunder]

Between 1881 and 1914, 43 of the 417 Social Democratic Party deputies elected to the German Reichstag were Jews, representing a rate 10 times the Jewish proportion of the German population. Anxiety about socialist popularity and Jewish presence within the socialist movement became especially apparent in the wake of the stunning SPD victory in the 1912 Reichstag elections. In these elections, the number of SPD deputies rose from 43 to 110, giving die party the largest share of seats in the Reichstag. The SPD's electoral landslide, and the fact that twenty of the twenty-five Jews elected to the Reichstag belonged to the Social Democratic Party, caused considerable consternation among Germany's anti-Semitic and conservative camps. .

Oh my God!! 10% of the SDP was Jewish!!!! We must kill them all now!!!!

Do you honestly believe this is a justification or even a rational excuse for violent anti-Semitism?

[ddt]

I appretiate your being a hard worker; you did a good job. There is only one problem: you entirely missed the essence.

It is irrelevant how far the KPD, the German Communist Party and the Socialdemocrats organized and lead the revolution, because the SPD itself became pretty much communist and Jewish dominated before. This was just the time, when the adherents of pure communism and social democratism were struggling for the leadership against each others and then separating.

And I think you missed my point, especially with the first post. Define "communist". And no, Ebert, Scheidemann, Noske et al. were no communists. You can't speak of "communists" before 1918, as the word wasn't used and, outside of Russia and Holland, there wasn't a separate movement. The second post was to elucidate the complex German situation of those days, and who actually instilled terror in those days - and, I confess, to rant against the way the SPD leadership acted. Quite apt to tell that story with the German state elections (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=152558) of yesterday. :)


The following citations are from Roots of hate: anti-semitism in Europe before the Holocaust, written by William Brustein.

Between 1881 and 1914, 43 of the 417 Social Democratic Party deputies elected to the German Reichstag were Jews, representing a rate 10 times the Jewish proportion of the German population. Anxiety about socialist popularity and Jewish presence within the socialist movement became especially apparent in the wake of the stunning SPD victory in the 1912 Reichstag elections. In these elections, the number of SPD deputies rose from 43 to 110, giving die party the largest share of seats in the Reichstag. The SPD's electoral landslide, and the fact that twenty of the twenty-five Jews elected to the Reichstag belonged to the Social Democratic Party, caused considerable consternation among Germany's anti-Semitic and conservative camps.
Those weren't communists; they were socialists. I won't let you shift the goal posts. How many of those wound up in the KPD?

At least you've shifted to using scholarly sources instead of Jewwatch. I won't dispute Brustein's numbers, but "dominated" as you wrote in the first paragraph sounds very gross when you look at the numbers: 10% of the MPs in the period, and 18% in 1912. Those are certainly high numbers, but not "dominated". I already wrote that I'd expect Jewish overrepresentation in the socialist movement as a whole. You'd hardly expect Jewish MPs for catholic Zentrum, would you? Nevertheless, Jewwatch manages to claim that Erzberger was a Jew (link (http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-leaders-luxemberg.html)). And as said above, socialists =/= communists. KPD is in - from 31-12-1918 onwards. I'll be nice and even grant you the Spartakists before.

Now, have you checked the list of KPD chair(wo)men? Have you checked the Central Committee members? You've given a lot of false material. Are you going to confess up for that? Are you going to correct it? Give us the real numbers, come on!


[i]On April 7, 1919, a Soviet Republic was proclaimed in Munich that included at its helm four Jews - Ernst Toller, Gustav Landauer, Erich Muehsam, and Arnold Walder. A second Soviet Republic succeeded the first and included among its leaders three Jews - Eugen Levine, Tovia Axelrod, and Ernst Toller.
Except Levine, no communists there. Socialists, anarchists, pacifists, but no communists. :rolleyes:


[i]The electoral victory of the French Popular Front in 1936 catapulted French political anti-Semitism to center stage. No single occurrence, save the Dreyfus Affair, did more to ignite French anti-Semitism and to unite its bickering factions than the coming to power of the Popular Front, led by the Jewish socialist leader Leon Blum.
Léon Blum, one person, and not even a communist. So he's out too.


Re Sándor Garbai: did your search result not show the joke about him being there only to sign the death sentences?
Yes. I'd like to have a full list of names to check, or a scholarly source. A joke makes no proof.


Re Nixon and the Jews in the USA, something evaded your attention: this thread is about the international Judeo-Communism and its effect on Antisemitism.
It escaped me that you'd switched to other countries and other eras. This was still under the heading "Hungary", so I thought it applied there. Nevertheless, I'd hardly consider a rant by Nixon a credible source.

Mind, we're still in the "counting" phase. You still have to make your case that there was a high proportion of Jews in the communist movement. Brustein goes a long way to make that case for Germany, but you haven't made the case for Hungary and above all not for Russia.

Second phase is to show that - if there was a high proportion of Jews - this indeed was responsible for a "large portion of Anti-Semitism". Good luck with that, especially for Germany. The Brustein quotes show the problem with that, and that is in line with what I argued about the German revolution. The distrust for the SPD among the "bürgerlichen" (DDP, Zentrum) and outright hatred for the SPD among the "nationalen" (DNVP) made that propaganda against the left didn't bother to make a fine distinction between KPD and SPD. Likewise, your Brustein quotes show that anti-semitic propaganda made no distinction between the two. Good luck with separating the both. :rolleyes:

[Jono]

NAME NATIONALITY
Bronstein (Trotsky) Jew
Apfelbaum (Zinovief) Jew
Lourie (Larine) Jew
Ouritski Jew
Volodarski Jew
Rosenfeldt (Kamanef) Jew
Smidovitch Jew
Sverdlof (Yankel) Jew
Nakhamkes (Steklof) Jew
Ulyanov (Lenin) Russian
Krylenko Russian
Lounatcharski Russian


Mmm yes Robert Wilton's lists. Lourie, Smidovitch, Volodarski and Nakhamkes weren't even in the Central Committee from 1917-1922!

The composition of the Central Committee looked like this:
Artem F. A., Buharin N. I. (Russian), Vladimirskij M. F. (Russian), Dzerzhinskij F. E. (Pole), Zinovjev G. E. (Jew), Krestinskij N. N. (Ukrainian), Lashevich M. M., Lenin V. I. (Russian), Sverdlov Ja. M. (Jew), Smilga I. T., Sokol'nikov G. Ja. (Jew), Stalin I. V. (Georgian), Stasova E. D. (Russian), Trotskij L. D. (Jew), Shmidt V. V. (German)

Wilton spend, I think, some ten years as a war-correspondent in Russia, where he quickly attached himself ideologically with the far-right elements, ie the tzarist sympathizers and naturally with the Black Hundreds which were upsurped by the White Russians.
And the Black Hundreds were at the immediate time during the October Revolution, one of the few organizations that did their own investigation, not looking for culprits in general, but Jews, as this was their agenda, had been for many years. Their papers, among others surely, on figures etc is what Wilton drafted from. Wilton's figures are so far out wrong that's it is nothing short of pure nonsense.

The First members of Council of People's Commissars:
Chairman: V. I. Lenin (1/4 Russian, Tatar, German, Jewish)
Commissar of Agriculture: V. P. Milyutin (Russian)
Commissars of Army and Navy: V. A. Ovseyenko, N. V. Krylenko, P. V. Dybenko (Russians, Osveyenko was ethnic ukranian)
Commissar of Commerce and Industry: V. P. Nogin (Russian)
Commissar of Education: A. V. Lunacharsky (Ukranian)
Commissar of Food: I. A. Teodorovich (Polish, not jewish)
Commissar of Foreign Affairs: L. D. Trotsky (jewish)
Commissar of Interior: A. I. Rykov (Russian)
Commissar of Justice: G. I. Oppokov (Russian)
Commissar of Labour: A. G. Shlyapnikov (Russian)
Commissar of Nationality Affairs: I. V. Stalin (Georgian)
Commissar of Post and Telegraphs: N. P. Avilov (Russian)
Commissar of Treasury: I. I. Skvortsov-Stepanov (Russian)

Btw Nick Terry, this is Leo Albus at the Phora.

[Uninvolved]

You can't speak of "communists" before 1918, as the word wasn't used and, outside of Russia and Holland, there wasn't a separate movement

...

Those weren't communists; they were socialists


I am getting fed up with your being childish. I am not sure if your general obtuseness comes from the lack of comprehension, but anyway I have no interest to maintain that.

[ddt]

I am getting fed up with your being childish. I am not sure if your general obtuseness comes from the lack of comprehension, but anyway I have no interest to maintain that.

Translation: you can't make your point.

You've come with fabricated lists of alleged Jewish Bolshewik leaders, lifted wholesale from Jewwatch. You've been called on that, you haven't retracted them until now. You came with a Nixon quote without mentioning his name (and doesn't have to do with the discussion anyhow).

I've written a post with a short history of the socialist movement and the origin of communist parties, and asked you explicitly whom you consider a communist for your claim. You have never answered that question.

Then don't complain when I fill in the answer for you. You came at last with a bona fide source, and mentioned a lot of names of people who weren't communist in my opinion. You had the chance to fill it in yourself, but you didn't. Simple as that.

[Thunder]

if even one early Soviet leader was a Jew, therefore all Jews must be blaimed for the crimes of the USSR. this is the logic of these bigots.

[Matthew Cline]

I DO wish they'd make up their mind. Either it was the evil jewish communists, out to destroy private property, who are the real cause of antisemitism, or else it is the evil jewish plutocrats, promoters of free-trade destruction of the workers, who are the real cause of antisemitism.

You can't have it both ways, you know.

Well, you can have it both ways, if you claim that all Jews (or at least all prominent Jews) spend their entire lives as deep-cover agents for the NWO, so that the Jewish communists didn't really believe in communism, nor did the Jewish plutocrats really believe in capitalism and free-trade, but both side secretly believe in Jews secretly ruling the whole world.

[Thunder]

I hear many Communists in Israel...are Jews!! Must be a Jewish conspiracy!!!!

[Skeptic]

Well, you can have it both ways, if you claim that all Jews (or at least all prominent Jews) spend their entire lives as deep-cover agents for the NWO, so that the Jewish communists didn't really believe in communism, nor did the Jewish plutocrats really believe in capitalism and free-trade, but both side secretly believe in Jews secretly ruling the whole world.

So the Jewish plutocrats who control everything are secretly planning a communist world revolution that will kill all the plutocrats, so that after the revolution, a new set of secret Jewish plutocrats can control the communists from behind the scenes?

Sort of pointless, isn't it? Why not just continue to rule the world through all their ill-gained money in the first place?

Anyway, in your search for consistency among the thinking of holocaust deniers (boy, if any snark was ever really a boojum...), if the Jews rule the whole world, why do they, the deniers, keep insisting Israel is a pathetic piece of dung on the verge of collapse? Again, one or the other might be true, but not both. If the Jews rule the world, how come the Jewish state is not all-powerful?

Oh, and while I'm on the subject -- why do they keep attacking Israel for being, in their view, racist? If it is, shouldn't these racists consider that a good thing?

So many contradictions, so little time.

[ddt]

So the Jewish plutocrats who control everything are secretly planning a communist world revolution that will kill all the plutocrats, so that after the revolution, a new set of secret Jewish plutocrats can control the communists from behind the scenes?

Sort of pointless, isn't it? Why not just continue to rule the world through all their ill-gained money in the first place?

Anyway, in your search for consistency among the thinking of holocaust deniers (boy, if any snark was ever really a boojum...), if the Jews rule the whole world, why do they, the deniers, keep insisting Israel is a pathetic piece of dung on the verge of collapse? Again, one or the other might be true, but not both. If the Jews rule the world, how come the Jewish state is not all-powerful?

Oh, and while I'm on the subject -- why do they keep attacking Israel for being, in their view, racist? If it is, shouldn't these racists consider that a good thing?

So many contradictions, so little time.

You could try to explain that "Israel is a pathetic piece of dung" part as a ruse so that the world does not pay attention to the Jewish cabal that secretly rules the world? I dunno... I think you're trying to find rationality where there is none, a bit of a pointless exercise - as you note yourself, the contradictions in the stances of the HD crowd are paramount.

[Jontg]

And btw, yes, Trotsky was a Jew--and Stalin stirred up anti-Semitic sentiments specifically to discredit him. In the end, as I'm sure you know, he was expelled from the Party and murdered with an ice axe by one of Stalin's cronies. So yeah, Jews totally ran the show over there. :boggled:

[ddt]

And btw, yes, Trotsky was a Jew--and Stalin stirred up anti-Semitic sentiments specifically to discredit him. In the end, as I'm sure you know, he was expelled from the Party and murdered with an ice axe by one of Stalin's cronies. So yeah, Jews totally ran the show over there. :boggled:

Yeah, Trotsky is the obvious one. The other two well-known Jews in the Central Committee - Zinoviev and Kamenev - teamed up with Stalin in 1924 to oust Trotsky and were promptly sidelined by Stalin after that task was accomplished.

Of course, the whole ludicrousness of the whole assertion is that Bolshevism - Communism in general - was a cosmopolitan movement. It wasn't interested in one's cultural heritage or one's religious background, it was interested in one's class consciousness (*). Those Jews that joined the Bolshevik party where, therefore, also the ones who typically were atheist and not interested themselves either in a typical Jewish heritage. Those that did care about that, would typically join the Bund.

(*) Yes, I'm aware that Stalin did frequently play the nationalism card. However, we're talking here about the period before he wielded the power.

Anyway, Uninvolved has already stated he won't return to the thread. Anyone a suggestion for a fruitful derail?

[Moss]

If the jews do indeed control the world, are they then the allpowerful master race with the Aryans being a bad second fiddle? ;)

[MaGZ]

Elizabeth Dilling perhaps more that anyone else has informed Americans of the connection between the Jews and Communism.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling/chapt12.html

[Jontg]

If the jews do indeed control the world, are they then the allpowerful master race with the Aryans being a bad second fiddle? ;)

You raise two interesting and hilarious points, Moss. Firstly, if the Aryans are so awesome, why haven't they been outsmarting those dastardly Jews and ruling with a wise and powerful hand from day one? And secondly, why is it that the Nazis' ethnic hit list includes every single one of the actual Aryan peoples? Anyone who's actually studied race, genetics, or anything of that nature should know what I'm talking about; MaGZ and his fellow nematodes will have to use Wikipedia.

[Skeptic]

Yeah, I keep asking that myself. According to the Nazis, (a) Jews rule the world, (b) Might makes right. So if they Jews do rule the world, they deserve to. So what's the problem?

[Thunder]

Elizabeth Dilling perhaps more that anyone else has informed Americans of the connection between the Jews and Communism.

http://www.come-and-hear.com/dilling/chapt12.html

by the mid-1920s, Russian non-Jews ran the USSR. do you now hate Russians?

i doubt it.

[Jontg]

Oh, and one lovely little snippet from a document that, apparently, this species of intellectual nematode regards as a bold expose of the Jewish menace by your friend and mine, Winston Churchill:
But the hordes of brigands by whom the whole. vast expanse of the Russian Empire is becoming infested do not hesitate to gratify their lust for blood and for revenge at the expense of the innocent Jewish population whenever an opportunity occurs. The brigand Makhno, the hordes of Petlura and of Gregorieff, who signalized their every success by the most brutal massacres, everywhere found among the half-stupefied, half-infuriated population an eager response to anti-Semitism in its worst and foulest forms.
Shall I go on?

[Eyeron]

Everything is the Jew's fault, even the reason why they're the most hated people on earth. After all, they bring it all on themselves and only have themselves to blame.

:boggled:

[Skeptic]

Everything is the Jew's fault, even the reason why they're the most hated people on earth. After all, they bring it all on themselves and only have themselves to blame.

:boggled:

More precisely, there are numerous groups who are hated and reviled -- Blacks, Jews, Muslims, Russians, immigrants, the English, Americans, etc. -- and all of them are, of course, completely guilty of everything those who hate them say against them. After all, they wouldn't be hated otherwise, would they?

EXCEPT for one group: Nazis. They are the one group of people on earth who, innocent white lambs that they are, are hated and reviled for no reason whatever, just as a result of vicious propaganda.

The Nazis: the one innocent group of people on the planet. It all makes sense now.