Was Ted Kennedy having an affair with Mary Jo Kopechne???

[Thunder]

OK. I just read just a wee bit about Chappaquiddick, and I have to say, it seems pretty clear what happened.

Ted's first wife was having drinking problems, was pregnant, and Teddy was having an affair with Mary Jo. He was drinking when they crashed, and he didn't save her or didn't call the cops until the next night, cause he wanted to make sure that his affair died with Mary Jo.

The fact that the Kennedy family wanted the investigation to be secret is even more evidence to this. Why do people want investigations to be kept secret? Cause they got something to hide. That's why Bush didn't want a 9-11 investigation, cause he had something to hide.

Was Ted Kennedy a great Senator? Yes. But I have a lot less respect for him now..then I did 10 minutes ago.

$10 says his journals will be released someday where he comes clean abouy what happened that night.

[Simon39759]

Meh.

a) Wouldn't it have surfaced during the investigation? Or after, in the memories or a tell-all book from one of the investigators?

b) Would Ted Kennedy really have thought that a car crash would be easier to cover-up if somebody had lost her life in it? It makes no sense.

c) Ted Kennedy described receiving a concussion and being in shock, that'd explain his behaviour much better than some kind of machination.

d) You are accusing Ted Kennedy of letting somebody die in an effort to protect his carrier, that's a pretty severe accusation and you'd need pretty serious proofs to support that.

[Thunder]

d) You are accusing Ted Kennedy of letting somebody die in an effort to protect his career, that's a pretty severe accusation and you'd need pretty serious proofs to support that.

worse things have happened.

[Simon39759]

Well sure.
Not mentioning the Holocaust that we now know was just a clever manipulation, people do terrible thing all the time and I would not be otherwise surprised to read about a similar story.
Still, one should give any given individual the benefit of the doubt.

[rockinkt]

Maybe he was afraid of getting kicked out of Harvard.
Nope - he already was kicked out - for CHEATING.

Obviously he was afraid of being nailed for drunk driving and that would have possibly led to more serious charges as a person died because of his drunk driving. So - he did what any drunken coward would do - he ran away and made up a story to cover himself.

[alleracsum]

By his actions (or lack of same) in the hour or two after the car went into the water Ted Kennedy almost certainly DID cause the death of Mary Jo Kopechne. The rescue diver who extracted her body testified that, based on her position in the overturned car, she might have survived for an hour or more. Kennedy said he made several attempts to get Kopechne out of the car before walking back to the cottage, passing several houses where he might have stopped to use the phone. He reached the cottage in less than 5 minutes and, instead of calling the police, he and two male friends drove back to the bridge and, according to their testimony, made several more futile attempts to reach Kopechne. Had the police been alerted immediately a Coast Guard rescue diver could have been at the scene and in the water in less than an hour.

There is no other explanation: Ted Kennedy (and his friends who I believe are as culpable as the Senator) made a conscious decision to NOT call the police. Why? Because Kennedy was drunk. Probably VERY drunk. Guilty or not, his political career was over if his blood alcohol was to be tested. The only way to "clear" his system was to wait. The friends drove him back to the ferry dock (the ferry was no longer running) where Kennedy jumped back into the water and swam to the mainland. He then proceeded to walk back to his hotel room where, instead of phoning the police, he went to bed. According to their testimony, when the two men met Kennedy at the hotel the next morning they were surprised to learn that Kennedy had STILL NOT CALLED THE POLICE.

Whatever happened that night, it's apparent Kennedy took the calculated risk that it would be easier to explain his bizarre post-accident behavior than to explain why his blood alcohol was so high. And he was right.

[boloboffin]

In how many other forums can people conceivably shake Kopechne's bones at Ted Kennedy? To my mind, the really tricky one will be TAM Scholarship Auctions. There, you have your challenge. Go forth and start a new thread.

[hgc]

worse things have happened.


By any measure, the observation that "worse things have happened" does not count as evidence of anything.

[Cicero]

Meh.

a) Wouldn't it have surfaced during the investigation? Or after, in the memories or a tell-all book from one of the investigators?


What investigation? The accident happned in Massachusetts. Kennedy paid off the Kopecne family.

b) Would Ted Kennedy really have thought that a car crash would be easier to cover-up if somebody had lost her life in it? It makes no sense.

It does if you're a Kennedy.

c) Ted Kennedy described receiving a concussion and being in shock, that'd explain his behaviour much better than some kind of machination.

Neither Kennedy, cousin Joe Gargan or Paul Markham, thought to call the police until 9 hours after the car went off the bridge. That shock must be contagious.

"Even if events had taken place in the manner in which Kennedy depicted them, the nine-hour delay in reporting the accident would have given them more than enough time to come up with a better story than the one that Kennedy and Markham concocted on the spot at the police station, and which was later revised for national television."

"We Can't Find Mary Jo" - Kennedy at Chappaquiddick
The accident which changed his life and ended hers

By Mary Wentworth

d) You are accusing Ted Kennedy of letting somebody die in an effort to protect his carrier, that's a pretty severe accusation and you'd need pretty serious proofs to support that.

"The diver, John Farrar, later testified at the inquest that Kopechne's body was pressed up in the car in the spot where an air bubble would have formed. He interpreted this to mean that Kopechne had survived for a while after the initial accident in the air bubble, and concluded that

“Had I received a call within five to ten minutes of the accident occurring, and was able, as I was the following morning, to be at the victim's side within twenty-five minutes of receiving the call, in such event there is a strong possibility that she would have been alive on removal from the submerged car."

[Simon39759]

What investigation? The accident happned in Massachusetts. Kennedy paid off the Kopecne family.

A car get out of the road and somebody dies. An investigation is going to take place, simple as that. In fact, it did, and Kennedy was not charged.
Now, your argument might be that the police did not investigate seriously because he was a Kennedy.
Then there is the Kopechne family, they were paid of, you say.

So, your idea is that not only is Kennedy a murderer, the investigation team corrupt, but the Kopechne family was bribed into letting the killer of their daughter go free.

And even now, decades after the fact, not a testimony has surfaced, no journalists brought up evidence.

You are positing a pretty developed conspiracy there.
It is, of course, possible, but that certainly is not the most parsimonious theory and you'd need pretty solid evidence to back that up.

Let alone it relies on the assumption that the two were having an affair, we don't have a shred of evidence suggesting that either.



It does if you're a Kennedy.

No, it does not.
A death under suspicious circumstances will always be harder to cover-up than just a run of the mill accident.


Neither Kennedy, cousin Joe Gargan or Paul Markham, thought to call the police until 9 hours after the car went off the bridge. That shock must be contagious.
"Even if events had taken place in the manner in which Kennedy depicted them, the nine-hour delay in reporting the accident would have given them more than enough time to come up with a better story than the one that Kennedy and Markham concocted on the spot at the police station, and which was later revised for national television."
"We Can't Find Mary Jo" - Kennedy at Chappaquiddick
The accident which changed his life and ended hers
By Mary Wentworth
"The diver, John Farrar, later testified at the inquest that Kopechne's body was pressed up in the car in the spot where an air bubble would have formed. He interpreted this to mean that Kopechne had survived for a while after the initial accident in the air bubble, and concluded that
“Had I received a call within five to ten minutes of the accident occurring, and was able, as I was the following morning, to be at the victim's side within twenty-five minutes of receiving the call, in such event there is a strong possibility that she would have been alive on removal from the submerged car."


Well, yes, that's tragic. That's also irrelevant.
The actions of Kennedy and his friends did not make sense. But them to assume that Kopechne disparition would not be reported, that people would not remember her leaving with Kennedy or that the car would never be discovered... does not make any more sense.
Once again, you assume that the Ted Kennedy bet on his family would be able to cover-up a manslaughter and yet would have been unable to supress rumors of an affair...

The fact is, you posit a conspiracy of Kennedy and his friends, and the police and Kopechne family and at least some journalists... All without any hard evidence.
Unless you provide some, I'll go with the more parsimonious official version and discard the other story as a conspiracy theory.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I'm the type of person that doesn't believe the news that someone is having an affair, is having a relationship, has something to hide, is a closeted homosexual, hit on an underage girl, did something bad with children, etc.

As a person, I'm afraid of jumping to conclusions and thinking something is going on when it isn't. I always think it's the innocent explanation and the other stuff could be vicious rumors and urban legends and stuff made up by people with dirty minds and judgemental worldviews. Maybe it's because I've been often accused of things I simply didn't do and had innocent things interpreted as not innocent things that I'm like this.

Or maybe, as my sister says, I'm naive and gullible, believe it when people lie and often make myself look suspicious because I'm so innocent and don't see how things will look and sound to other people.

For instance, when a man I knew kept insisting that a woman of his acquaintance was his friend, I believed him and no one else did. Everyone kept saying things like "He's got a girlfriend!" or "[Name] and his girlfriend [name]". I kept saying "Gee, maybe she isn't, since he keeps saying she's his friend? Well, how do you know she's his girlfriend?". And it turned out she was his girlfriend, from the very start. Oh well.

So with Ted and the rumors of an affair, my first instinct is to think "At the risk of sounding naive, nah". My second is to think "Well, maybe that is naive". My third is "Well, there's such a thing as a half truth".

It's well known that Ted was a boozing womanizer, even into his 60s and 70s. Maybe he picked up Mary Jo from the party to flirt with her, to come on to her, to possibly get something going with her, even to get the chance to finally talk to her- and then the accident happened.

Maybe that's why the accident happened or partially why it happened- that he came on to her or was distracted by her and didn't watch what he was doing or a fight between the two of them erupted.

Maybe she was his mistress, which was why he was taking her home in the first place but not why he drove a car off a bridge.

Maybe he was drinking but wasn't too drunk to drive a car. Maybe drink was totally to blame, partially to blame or not at all to blame in the least.

Maybe he just happened to offer a female acquaintance a ride out of the goodness of his heart and it happened to end in tragedy for her and him.

His action after the fact- he says he was counting on her having escaped and swam to shore, said he was too exhausted and shocked to do more than collapse in bed after attempting to rescue her, says he didn't want to raise the alarm. That he didn't pick up a phone and call the cops is still inexplicable to me- but boy, do people do some really, really, really stupid things in a crisis. You don't do things that seem so obvious to you and everyone else in hindsight.

However, there could be something else. Maybe he was secretly afraid of a huge sex scandal. Maybe he didn't want his wife to think there was something going on with him and Mary Jo. Maybe he was praying she was alive and there would be no need to divulge that he had been alone with a woman after a party and was going to her residence. Maybe he wanted to protect himself against true accusations, maybe he wanted to protect himself against false accusations.

So I'll buy that Mary Jo was his mistress or his intended mistress and I'll buy that he might have been drinking enough to impair his ability to drive and that there might have been more than one reason for his idiotic actions after the fact but a conspiracy? With all the endless scrutiny around the case? No.

[Cicero]

A car get out of the road and somebody dies. An investigation is going to take place, simple as that. In fact, it did, and Kennedy was not charged.
Now, your argument might be that the police did not investigate seriously because he was a Kennedy.
Then there is the Kopechne family, they were paid of, you say.

So, your idea is that not only is Kennedy a murderer, the investigation team corrupt, but the Kopechne family was bribed into letting the killer of their daughter go free.

Argument? The investigation concluded the girl was alive even 30 minutes after the accident. There was no autopsy on Kopechne. The corrupt people are Kennedy, his minions, and those officials in Massachusetts that operated under the guidance of what was best for Teddy, not Kopechne.

And even now, decades after the fact, not a testimony has surfaced, no journalists brought up evidence.

Evidence of what? Everything we know as fact about July 19, 1969 is more than enough to determine Teddy's culpability in the death of Kopechne.

You are positing a pretty developed conspiracy there.
It is, of course, possible, but that certainly is not the most parsimonious theory and you'd need pretty solid evidence to back that up.

Let alone it relies on the assumption that the two were having an affair, we don't have a shred of evidence suggesting that either.


That is your assumption. Kennedy could have picked Kopechne up hitchhiking that night and it wouldn't change his culpability in her death.

No, it does not.
A death under suspicious circumstances will always be harder to cover-up than just a run of the mill accident.

Suspicious? After survivng the initial accident, Kopechne drowned because Teddy and his minions didn't report the accident until nine hours later. Why is this so confusing for you?



Well, yes, that's tragic. That's also irrelevant.
The actions of Kennedy and his friends did not make sense. But them to assume that Kopechne disparition would not be reported, that people would not remember her leaving with Kennedy or that the car would never be discovered... does not make any more sense.
Once again, you assume that the Ted Kennedy bet on his family would be able to cover-up a manslaughter and yet would have been unable to supress rumors of an affair...

Suppress? Married Kennedy men and affairs are synonymous. Whether Teddy was having an affair with Kopechne is a red-herring. WHat makes Chappaquiddick notorious is not Kopechne's assignation with Teddy, but Teddy's responsibility for her death.

Because you find the post accident actions of Kennedy, Gargan, an attorney who handled many automobile accident cases, and Paul Markjam, U.S. Attorney for Massachusetts, the highest federal law officer in the state, nonsensical, you deny their actions were intentionally created to protect Teddy from responsibility?

"Kopechne's parents said that they learned of their daughter's death from Ted Kennedy himself before he reported his involvement to the authorities, but that they learned Kennedy had been the driver only from wire press releases some time later."

Did the fact he drove the car off the bridge slip his mind when he spoke to Mr. & Mrs. Kopechne?


The fact is, you posit a conspiracy of Kennedy and his friends, and the police and Kopechne family and at least some journalists... All without any hard evidence.
Unless you provide some, I'll go with the more parsimonious official version and discard the other story as a conspiracy theory.


Would that official version include the fact that Judge Boyle didn't believe Teddy's story?

"Judge James Boyle, who presided over the inquest, wrote in his report that if Kennedy's destination had, in fact, been Edgartown he would have asked his chauffeur to take him there so that the car could be driven back to Chappaquiddick to provide transportation for the ten remaining guests. They would have only the Valiant, a compact car rented for the occasion by Gargan, to get them back to Edgartown (NYT 4/30/79)."


"Kopechne and Kennedy did not intend to drive to the ferry slip and his turn onto Dike Road had been intentional".

"A speed of twenty miles per hour as Kennedy testified to operating the car as large as his Oldsmobile would be at least negligent and possibly reckless."

"For some reason not apparent from [Kennedy]'s testimony, he failed to exercise due care as he approached the bridge."

"There is probable cause to believe that Edward M. Kennedy operated his motor vehicle negligently ... and that such operation appears to have contributed to the death of Mary Jo Kopechne."

"Under Massachusetts law Boyle, having found "probable cause" that Kennedy had committed a crime, could have issued a warrant for his arrest, but he did not do so. District Attorney Dinis chose not to pursue Kennedy for manslaughter, despite Judge Boyle's conclusions."

[dudalb]

In how many other forums can people conceivably shake Kopechne's bones at Ted Kennedy? To my mind, the really tricky one will be TAM Scholarship Auctions. There, you have your challenge. Go forth and start a new thread.

Someone does not like any criticism of Saint Ted.

[Darth Rotor]

Maybe he just wanted to roll in the hay with her for the evening, rather than have a full blown affair. IIRC, she was RFK's secretary or assistant something or other. Teddy may have simply been following the red headed tyrant.

DR

[boloboffin]

Someone does not like any criticism of Saint Ted.

Yes, could you please report to Daily Kos and explain that to the people who think I've thrown Ted under the bus with my incumbency amendment to the Constitution?

Oh, yes, and then there's this (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5057757&postcount=112). Is that enough of a disclaimer for you?

God forbid I wonder about the number of threads necessary to discuss this topic on the forums.

ETA: And on reviewing the other thread, I see that you posted in it AFTER I had made that remark, so you knew :rule10 well I didn't think any such thing. This constant need of yours to thump me because of my lefter-than-you views is pretty pathetic, dudalb. Maybe if I irritate you so much, you should put me on ignore.

[dudalb]

Why are you so angry at anybody who mentions that Ted Kennedy's behavior after Chappequdick was pretty bad?
If you want to go with the theme that he turned his life around and redeemed himself afterwards,fine. But to pretend that Kennedy's behavior was anything other then reprehensible is just plain silly.

[boloboffin]

Why are you so angry at anybody who mentions that Ted Kennedy's behavior after Chappequdick was pretty bad?
If you want to go with the theme that he turned his life around and redeemed himself afterwards,fine. But to pretend that Kennedy's behavior was anything other then reprehensible is just plain silly.

If people want to shake Mary Jo's bones at Ted Kennedy, fine by me. I am not pretending that this episode is anything but reprehensible as the freaking link to my previous freaking post on the subject freaking demonstrates. What I am "angry" about is starting thread after thread in subforum after subforum to do it in. Is that necessary?

Stop looking at me with your Michael-Moore-hating glasses and deal with my actual words.

[Thunder]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090903/ap_on_go_co/us_kennedy_memoir

Turns out Teddy swears he did not have an affair with that woman, Ms. Kopechne.

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Well, I'll buy that. He happened to give a female acquaintance a ride after a party. Something he had no doubt done dozens of times before and millions of people do every single day, forgetting it all a day later. And tragedy happened to occur. And he spent the next 40 years wishing he had never, ever happened to ask a brother's campaign aide to drive with him.

I mean, it really does sound as though he barely knew the woman. If he hadn't happened to get her killed, he'd never even have been linked to her.

[Cicero]

Well, I'll buy that. He happened to give a female acquaintance a ride after a party. Something he had no doubt done dozens of times before and millions of people do every single day, forgetting it all a day later. And tragedy happened to occur. And he spent the next 40 years wishing he had never, ever happened to ask a brother's campaign aide to drive with him.

I mean, it really does sound as though he barely knew the woman. If he hadn't happened to get her killed, he'd never even have been linked to her.

Do you think that even if Marry Jo had been another of Teddy's countless extramarital affairs her name would hold any special significance today? Had Teddy managed to get any of his numerous assignations killed, the consequences would be the same.

[A W Smith]

this is how the bridge looked it its day, No railings, Just a 6 inch wood curb. and not even aligned with the dirt road

http://photos.upi.com/topics-The-site-of-the-Chappaquiddick-incident-involving-Sen-Ted-Kennedy-and-Mary-Jo-Kopechne/b5627b58269d3a7d8c8f84ae7351f26d/M-1.jpg

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/JFKulasewicz2.jpg

http://www.vacationandtraveling.com/_IMAGES/bridge22.jpg

In my opinion. it was an accident. Perhaps a combination of intoxication and dark of night. I'm pretty sure Kennedy didnt have an affair with every female he happened to share a car with. In fact if he were intoxicated he probably couldn't even "get it up". Did he use poor judgment in not reporting it till the next morning? Yes. Perhaps because he knew he was intoxicated (if in fact he was) and not just exhausted and scared of the ramifications of the accident. Could also been that she was driving because of his intoxication. and was unfamiliar with the roads.

[Cicero]

thI'm pretty sure Kennedy didnt have an affair with every female he happened to share a car with. In fact if he were intoxicated he probably couldn't even "get it up".

That didn't mean he didn't try regardless of circumstances or level of inebriation.


"As Gaviglio enters the room, the six-foot-two, 225-plus-pound Kennedy grabs the five-foot-three, 103-pound waitress and throws her on the table. She lands on her back, scattering crystal, plates and cutlery and the lit candles. Several glasses and a crystal candlestick are broken. Kennedy then picks her up from the table and throws her on Dodd, who is sprawled in a chair. With Gaviglio on Dodd’s lap, Kennedy jumps on top and begins rubbing his genital area against hers, supporting his weight on the arms of the chair. As he is doing this, Loh enters the room. She and Gaviglio both scream, drawing one or two dishwashers.

Startled, Kennedy leaps up. He laughs. Bruised, shaken and angry over what she considered a sexual assault, Gaviglio runs from the room. Kennedy, Dodd and their dates leave shortly thereafter, following a friendly argument between the senators over the check."

This is his behavior after Chappaquiddick. Do you think Teddy had a reputation for being Sir Walter Ralegh at any time in his life?

[Moss]

That didn't mean he didn't try regardless of circumstances or level of inebriation.


"As Gaviglio enters the room, the six-foot-two, 225-plus-pound Kennedy grabs the five-foot-three, 103-pound waitress and throws her on the table. She lands on her back, scattering crystal, plates and cutlery and the lit candles. Several glasses and a crystal candlestick are broken. Kennedy then picks her up from the table and throws her on Dodd, who is sprawled in a chair. With Gaviglio on Dodd’s lap, Kennedy jumps on top and begins rubbing his genital area against hers, supporting his weight on the arms of the chair. As he is doing this, Loh enters the room. She and Gaviglio both scream, drawing one or two dishwashers.

Startled, Kennedy leaps up. He laughs. Bruised, shaken and angry over what she considered a sexual assault, Gaviglio runs from the room. Kennedy, Dodd and their dates leave shortly thereafter, following a friendly argument between the senators over the check."

This is his behavior after Chappaquiddick. Do you think Teddy had a reputation for being Sir Walter Ralegh at any time in his life?

Care to provide the source for that?

[Yoink]

OK. I just read just a wee bit about Chappaquiddick, and I have to say, it seems pretty clear what happened.

Ted's first wife was having drinking problems, was pregnant, and Teddy was having an affair with Mary Jo. He was drinking when they crashed, and he didn't save her or didn't call the cops until the next night, cause he wanted to make sure that his affair died with Mary Jo.

The fact that the Kennedy family wanted the investigation to be secret is even more evidence to this. Why do people want investigations to be kept secret? Cause they got something to hide. That's why Bush didn't want a 9-11 investigation, cause he had something to hide.

Was Ted Kennedy a great Senator? Yes. But I have a lot less respect for him now..then I did 10 minutes ago.

$10 says his journals will be released someday where he comes clean abouy what happened that night.

This post typifies all the attacks on Kennedy re Chappaquiddick: no evidence of any kind is adduced beyond the poster's gut feeling about what "seems pretty clear."

If it's so "clear" why isn't there a skerrick of evidence to support the case?

Oh, that's right, he used his special magic Kennedy powers to make it all go away. Hey, I know, let's pin every single unsolved murder that ever occurred in the history of mankind on Ted Kennedy! After all, there's no evidence linking him to any of those, so that "proves" that he must have done it and hushed up the evidence, doesn't it? That bastard.

[kedo1981]

Hustler magazine’s comic strip Honey Hooker had all the facts