Wingnuts Boo McCain For Not Being Douchebag ... Again

[Dr Adequate]

EcijeEtf-wA
Ah, John, John, reality is wasted on your constituency.

To misquote Orwell: If you want a picture of the future of conservatism, imagine Rush Limbaugh's corpulent ass sitting on a human face --- forever.

[leonAzul]

EcijeEtf-wA
Ah, John, John, reality is wasted on your constituency.

To misquote Orwell: If you want a picture of the future of conservatism, imagine Rush Limbaugh's corpulent ass sitting on a human face --- forever.

Mr. McCain is a class act, for sure.

Do you get the feeling they'd want Goldwater again, if they could?

[T.A.M.]

I watched about 15 minutes or so (all I could stomach) of that town hall.

WERE THERE ANY PEOPLE THERE UNDER THE AGE OF 60?
WERE THERE ANY PEOPLE THERE WHO WERE NOT WHITE?

man that town hall was a testament to what the REP party has become.

TAM:)

[quixotecoyote]

Mr. McCain is a class act, for sure.

I dunno. He seems ok now, but he was pretty skeezy during the campaign. Then he gave a classy concession speech and it was all forgotten.

[leftysergeant]

McCain is, in some ways, a tragic figure. He saw himself as a patriot, doing the Lord's work for the people he represented. He built heavily on his history as a veteran to protray himself as the most qualified candidate..

But let's stop it right there. During a time of war, we need a president with the ability to be a moral leader, one who is in command of the situation at all times.

We need a leader who knows himself and his people and knows the enemy.

Sorry, Grampa.

He was never in charge of his campaign, never commanded the moral high ground, never roused people to a higher calling. He did not set the tone for his campaign events. He was overshadowed by the Arctic MILF and the whole operation turned ugly.

If it were not so painfully obvious that an even uglier whackadoodle was already being groomed by the radical right to replace him before the dust of the election had settle, I would suggest that he retire now.

[Dr Adequate]

He was never in charge of his campaign, never commanded the moral high ground, never roused people to a higher calling. He did not set the tone for his campaign events. He was overshadowed by the Arctic MILF and the whole operation turned ugly. Be fair. There's a reason why the word: "Again" appears in the title of this thread.

He did his best ... against a group of people who'd actually been turned into a bunch of screaming paranoid loonies during eight years --- or six, depending how you count it --- when their party had been in power.

Remember when his "supporters" attacked the buses ferrying journalists from event to event? The buses paid for out of McCain campaign funds because the campaign wanted the media there?

[Biscuit]

I am actually one of McCain's constituents and while I did not vote for him I have always been impressed with his willingness to stand up to intolerance and ignorance.

Some one here asked if there was anyone under 60 or non white. Well that town hall was, I believe, done at a place called sunsites or sun valley. Its a massive retirement community on the outskirts of phoenix.... so no there was no one under 60 or non white.

I really want to know what part of the constitution the president has violated? It seems to me that most people have never read the document and some how believe it contains all the laws that ever were and ever will be. I look at it as the framework for how the government is meant to be run but maybe I am the crazy one.

[makaya325]

But let's stop it right there. During a time of war, we need a president with the ability to be a moral leader, one who is in command of the situation at all times.

We need a leader who knows himself and his people and knows the enemy.

And Obama is the man we need in a time of war?

[Thunder]

McCain should become a Blue-Dog Democrat.

He is waaaay too civil for the Republican Party.

[Biscuit]

McCain should become a Blue-Dog Democrat.

He is waaaay too civil for the Republican Party.

Agreed. I would vote for him if he distanced himself from the right wing.

[Biscuit]

And Obama is the man we need in a time of war?

No, we need a ruff rider but they are all dead so Obama will have to do.

I would also take Andrew Jackson.

[KingMerv00]

*Checks the Constitution*

Hmmm....What is that lady talking about?

[T.A.M.]

And Obama is the man we need in a time of war?

In a time of two wars, where one never should have been and needs to be ended, and the other has seen its time, and also needs to be reduced...I think so...but only time will tell.

TAM:)

[GreNME]

I dunno. He seems ok now, but he was pretty skeezy during the campaign. Then he gave a classy concession speech and it was all forgotten.

He was far more moderate and reasonable before the Republican National Convention, and it was obvious that he shifted his bearings when the general campaign was on. There were moments that he recognized the cognitive dissonance of his campaign, and moments where he regretted (or seemed to regret) some of the worse accusations about Obama coming from his campaign. His concession speech was the most like the John McCain I've recognized over the years, and his campaign the most unlike the McCain that had been a common fixture in politics over the years.

-----

McCain is, in some ways, a tragic figure. He saw himself as a patriot, doing the Lord's work for the people he represented. He built heavily on his history as a veteran to protray himself as the most qualified candidate..

But let's stop it right there. During a time of war, we need a president with the ability to be a moral leader, one who is in command of the situation at all times.

We need a leader who knows himself and his people and knows the enemy.

Sorry, Grampa.

He was never in charge of his campaign, never commanded the moral high ground, never roused people to a higher calling. He did not set the tone for his campaign events. He was overshadowed by the Arctic MILF and the whole operation turned ugly.

If it were not so painfully obvious that an even uglier whackadoodle was already being groomed by the radical right to replace him before the dust of the election had settle, I would suggest that he retire now.

Your hate far overshadows any logic you may have when it comes to political topics, dude.

[Whiplash]

I watched about 15 minutes or so (all I could stomach) of that town hall.

WERE THERE ANY PEOPLE THERE UNDER THE AGE OF 60?
WERE THERE ANY PEOPLE THERE WHO WERE NOT WHITE?

man that town hall was a testament to what the REP party has become.

TAM:)


But no one on the left ever attempts to paint the right as a bunch of old white racists who fear change or something equally inane.

[tyr_13]

But no one on the left ever attempts to paint the right as a bunch of old white racists who fear change or something equally inane.

Wait, who made that claim?

Besides, in this case there is no 'attempts' about it. :p

[The Central Scrutinizer]

I love the old bat at the beginning. "Doesn't he (Obama) know that we still live under a constitution"?

And "All this money is against the constitution". All what money? How can money be "against" the Constitution?

I'd bet every penny I have that this idiot has no idea what the constitution even says. She's repeating what she heard at the church bingo.

[Jeff Corey]

I love the old bat at the beginning. "Doesn't he (Obama) know that we still live under a constitution"?

And "All this money is against the constitution". All what money? How can money be "against" the Constitution?

I'd bet every penny I have that this idiot has no idea what the constitution even says. She's repeating what she heard at the church bingo.

And is getting that socialist Medicare.

[MattusMaximus]

Ah, poor John McCain. I have to give it to him... he's attempting to regain the reasonable middle ground that I respected him for over so many years. Alas, I fear his party has shifted too far into loony-land for him to have success, unless a lot more GOP politicians have the balls to stand up and say what needs to be said.

He was far more moderate and reasonable before the Republican National Convention, and it was obvious that he shifted his bearings when the general campaign was on. There were moments that he recognized the cognitive dissonance of his campaign, and moments where he regretted (or seemed to regret) some of the worse accusations about Obama coming from his campaign. His concession speech was the most like the John McCain I've recognized over the years, and his campaign the most unlike the McCain that had been a common fixture in politics over the years.

Agreed. If that John McCain had run, and if he'd had the balls to kick the rightwingers insisting on Palin on the ticket to the curb, then I think it could have very well been even money on him winning the presidency.

All of that said, I'm glad we're seeing that John McCain again. Good luck, John... you're going to need it to get the GOP back on the path to sanity.

[MattusMaximus]

Agreed. I would vote for him if he distanced himself from the right wing.

You and a whole lot of other people. A whole lot.

[quixotecoyote]

He was far more moderate and reasonable before the Republican National Convention, and it was obvious that he shifted his bearings when the general campaign was on. There were moments that he recognized the cognitive dissonance of his campaign, and moments where he regretted (or seemed to regret) some of the worse accusations about Obama coming from his campaign. His concession speech was the most like the John McCain I've recognized over the years, and his campaign the most unlike the McCain that had been a common fixture in politics over the years.

That's fair. I'd agree with that.

[GreNME]

Agreed. If that John McCain had run, and if he'd had the balls to kick the rightwingers insisting on Palin on the ticket to the curb, then I think it could have very well been even money on him winning the presidency.

Yep. I was actually excited after the Democrats finally decided on Obama, because I thought we were finally going to get a campaign with two people who were above the petty BS that politicians normally get into during election runs. Unfortunately, that didn't pan out-- not even close.

What would really kick ass is if this John McCain could help bring the discourse in the country back to solving the problems instead of just being about stopping the Democrats from being successful.

[Juniversal]

Well that town hall was, I believe, done at a place called sunsites or sun valley. Its a massive retirement community on the outskirts of phoenix.... so no there was no one under 60 or non white.

I really want to know what part of the constitution the president has violated? It seems to me that most people have never read the document and some how believe it contains all the laws that ever were and ever will be. I look at it as the framework for how the government is meant to be run but maybe I am the crazy one.Eh its not like non-diversity is unusual at these Republican town halls. But nonetheless I see two non-white people in the video (the guy @ :35 on the bottom right and the woman sitting next to him) lol. Notice they're sitting in the front so they can be seen... ;)

[leftysergeant]

But no one on the left ever attempts to paint the right as a bunch of old white racists who fear change or something equally inane.

Actually, a lot of them are racist, a lot of them are old and set in their ways, still buying into what Ronald Reagan sold them back in the 1960s. A lot of them are young whippersnappers who only remember the "good" things about the Reagan years and all the money that was to be made if you decided to make it and didn't care whether government was able to function, or if people starved or lost their homes when the ecconomy "adjusted."

The only blanket statements that the left makes about them are that they are unrealistic and self-centered and arrogant and potentially dangerous.

[gtc]

How many people have starved in America in the last 30 years?

[T.A.M.]

But no one on the left ever attempts to paint the right as a bunch of old white racists who fear change or something equally inane.

Well if you feel I am making such a statement, fine...

My comment, except for the last part, was based on my watching the first 15 minutes or so, of the video.

Please, tell me what percentage of his audience is (A) under 60 years old, and (B) not white.

TAM:)

[gtc]

The meeting (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/25/senator_mccains_townhall_meeting_98028.html) was in Sun City Arizona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_City,_Arizona).

Sun City is a retirement community. In 2000 it had a median age of 75 and 0.51% of the population were Black. That is about 200 out of a population of over 38,000.

How many young black people would you expect to show up to a meeting there?

[Magyar]

How many people have starved in America in the last 30 years?

Well a LOT actually! Ok, OK, not like bloated stomach skeletons in Africa, but how many lives are shortened and how much EXTRA money are we spending on health care taking care of kids who suffer secondary health issues because of lack of nutrition and often lack of food.

If you are actually REALLY interested in the answer to your question instead of just posting snide repugnican rhetoric google "starving in America"

[T.A.M.]

The meeting (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/25/senator_mccains_townhall_meeting_98028.html) was in Sun City Arizona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_City,_Arizona).

Sun City is a retirement community. In 2000 it had a median age of 75 and 0.51% of the population were Black. That is about 200 out of a population of over 38,000.

How many young black people would you expect to show up to a meeting there?

Well that completely answers the question of why there were few people under 60 or non-white.

Look at me going on in another thread about ignorance, and here I am too ignorant (well lazy is more likely) to do a little research that would tell me all this.

McCain simply picked an audience that was (A) friendly to his pov, and (B) that were all older than him...lol

TAM:o

[negativ]

I love the old bat at the beginning. "Doesn't he (Obama) know that we still live under a constitution"?

And "All this money is against the constitution". All what money? How can money be "against" the Constitution?

I'd bet every penny I have that this idiot has no idea what the constitution even says. She's repeating what she heard at the church bingo.

Probably this (http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=rally_round_the_true_constitution ):

Tentherism, in a nutshell, proclaims that New Deal-era reformers led an unlawful coup against the "True Constitution," exploiting Depression-born desperation to expand the federal government's powers beyond recognition. Under the tenther constitution, Barack Obama's health-care reform is forbidden, as is Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. The federal minimum wage is a crime against state sovereignty; the federal ban on workplace discrimination and whites-only lunch counters is an unlawful encroachment on local businesses.

Tenthers divine all this from the brief language of the 10th Amendment, which provides that "the powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." In layman's terms, this simply means that the Constitution contains an itemized list of federal powers -- such as the power to regulate interstate commerce or establish post offices or make war on foreign nations -- and anything not contained in that list is beyond Congress' authority.

[Slayhamlet]

How many people have starved in America in the last 30 years?

Starved as in starved to death? Very few. Yet very many of the nation's poor, especially children, get insufficient nutrition. This can manifest itself in health conditions and developmental problems, without the child necessarily looking bone-thin.

[gnome]

Probably this (http://prospect.org/cs/articles?article=rally_round_the_true_constitution ):

Yes, I think that's where it comes from. In some ways it can hearken to the debate between strict or broad construction of powers--can Congress act only in ways specifically authorized in its enumerated powers of the Constitution, or can they enact any laws that aren't forbidden by the Constitution? More specifically... how broadly can that "interstate commerce" clause be interpreted?

The sad thing is it's an honest debating point drowned out in hyperbole about secession and how those horrible liberal judges are "ignoring the Constitution".

[gtc]

Well that completely answers the question of why there were few people under 60 or non-white.

Look at me going on in another thread about ignorance, and here I am too ignorant (well lazy is more likely) to do a little research that would tell me all this.

McCain simply picked an audience that was (A) friendly to his pov, and (B) that were all older than him...lol

TAM:o

It isn't a good look to have an audience that white and that old, even if it is representative of the community. But the alternatives - bussing in young blacks to make the audience look right or avoiding such venues altogether are worse. The former would be jarring to anyone who knows the area and smacks of tokenism while the latter is not good for democracy.

[Merko]

I don't know if McCain is smart or just trying to be 'honourable'. Actually I'd prefer if he was smart. Most of the GOP appears to be quite stupid these days. They have realized that the crazies are good for fundraising and for getting loyal, hard-working campaign workers. But they haven't realized that you can't win a majority with these people.

Some smart GOPers, like Huntsman, have decided that being 'honourable' these days is too dangerous in the short run, and so they chickened out on the tough but necessary battle that will inevitably come within the GOP in the next few years to win the party back from the crazies. Then Huntsman and his likes can return, untainted.

But who will lead that battle? I don't think McCain can do that.. he's too much a figure of the past.

[leftysergeant]

McCain never really developed the leadership characteristics needed to turn the party around from its berserker's rush for glory. He never really had to work for anything in his life. He just put in his time and depended on the old system of affirmative action for well-connected white boys to carry him through.

He never distinguished himself at anything. There is not even proof that he was an adequate airplane driver.

The GOP is just totally out of leaders who really made it on their own merits. Eisenhower is the last one I can think of who fits that description.

In the absence of inspiring leaders, they have to rely on the fevor and committment of the zanies to get anything done.

[T.A.M.]

It isn't a good look to have an audience that white and that old, even if it is representative of the community. But the alternatives - bussing in young blacks to make the audience look right or avoiding such venues altogether are worse. The former would be jarring to anyone who knows the area and smacks of tokenism while the latter is not good for democracy.

SO why not change the venue to somewhere a little more representative of the country as a whole. Certainly in Arizona such communities must exist.

TAM:)

[Puppycow]

EcijeEtf-wA
Ah, John, John, reality is wasted on your constituency.

As well as on the person he choose as his running mate. :hit:

[Dr Adequate]

McCain never really developed the leadership characteristics needed to turn the party around from its berserker's rush for glory. So that's what they were rushing for ... I'd never have guessed.

[Cicero]

At 3:07 a Sun City resident asks McCain why he wants to send social security checks to Mexicans in Mexico because they had at a time worked in the U.S. illegally. The man also asks about tort reform when Republicans had the majority in Congress. McCain's response is a snide remark about how he is sorry the man hasn't followed his career in politics. Then makes a rambling speech about drug cartels. McCain never denied wanting to send SS checks South of the boarder to those who worked illegally in the U.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6VLtbKN4Ik&feature=related

McCain stated he voted against Sotomayor and got applause. Was McCain not being a douchebag again and was the audience not being douchebags for applauding his vote?

[Biscuit]

At 3:07 a Sun City resident asks McCain why he wants to send social security checks to Mexicans in Mexico because they had at a time worked in the U.S. illegally. The man also asks about tort reform when Republicans had the majority in Congress. McCain's response is a snide remark about how he is sorry the man hasn't followed his career in politics. Then makes a rambling speech about drug cartels. McCain never denied wanting to send SS checks South of the boarder to those who worked illegally in the U.S.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6VLtbKN4Ik&feature=related

McCain stated he voted against Sotomayor and got applause. Was McCain not being a douchebag again and was the audience not being douchebags for applauding his vote?


I am have not heard of this but how could an illegal immigrant that paid zero taxes while working in the U.S. be in the SS system to receive a check from it? They don't have a SS#, they haven't paid any taxes, and they are not in the system, so how could the SS people get their address or even determine how much money to send them?

As far as that video goes I heard the first guy say the word "Warshington" and I stopped listening. I understand that people are upset and confused but this just sounds like monday morning quarterbacking. No one was concerned while we dug the hole but now everyone has their own way out.

[Biscuit]

The meeting (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/25/senator_mccains_townhall_meeting_98028.html) was in Sun City Arizona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_City,_Arizona).

Sun City is a retirement community. In 2000 it had a median age of 75 and 0.51% of the population were Black. That is about 200 out of a population of over 38,000.

How many young black people would you expect to show up to a meeting there?

Yes, Sun City was what I meant. You have to forgive me for two reasons.

1. I rarely go to the greater Phoenix area as it is a pee-pee soaked heck hole.

2. We have a lot of cities that start with Sun. Sunizona, sunsites, sun valley, ect.

We have very few black people in AZ period. I have no idea why. According to the census it was 4.2% in 2008. So McCain could have held that town hall just about anywhere and would have had to bus in the black participants.

[Drysdale]

I think the press in particular and both parties, but especially the dems are misreading this badly. They are making their voices heard to both parties. It looks like genuine anger being displayed by the protesters. Now, the dems are shipping in their union,acorn people to show opposition but if they were'nt would there be many protesting for HC change really?

The majority of legal Americans are content with their HC and dont want the govt getting involved and screwing it up like they are apt to do with a full blown overhaul.

Guess we wont know definately until 2010,2012. But I have a feeling the dems,and many on this board are in for a big shock.

[Cicero]

I am have not heard of this but how could an illegal immigrant that paid zero taxes while working in the U.S. be in the SS system to receive a check from it? They don't have a SS#, they haven't paid any taxes, and they are not in the system, so how could the SS people get their address or even determine how much money to send them?


You never heard of fake SS#'s?

"Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions."


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

[Biscuit]

I think the press in particular and both parties, but especially the dems are misreading this badly. They are making their voices heard to both parties. It looks like genuine anger being displayed by the protesters. Now, the dems are shipping in their union,acorn people to show opposition but if they were'nt would there be many protesting for HC change really?

The majority of legal Americans are content with their HC and dont want the govt getting involved and screwing it up like they are apt to do with a full blown overhaul.

Guess we wont know definately until 2010,2012. But I have a feeling the dems,and many on this board are in for a big shock.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

First of all don't use the words "Union" and "Acorn" as if they are dirty words. Unions are to be thanked for many things that the average worker takes for granted. The abuse that ACORN has put up with since turning its own volunteers in is disgusting.

Since 1970, ACORN has been building community organizations that are committed to social and economic justice, and won victories on thousands of issues of concern to our members, through direct action, negotiation, legislative advocacy and voter participation. ACORN helps those who have historically been locked out become powerful players in our democratic system.

http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342

If the republicans and the for profit healthcare companies would be honest and stop spreading lies about death panels, forced participation, and the end of private health care we might actually have meaningful reform in this country.

Please prove that the majority of americans are content with their healthcare. And also prove why they wouldn't be even more content if a public option forced the HC companies to lower their rates.

Lets go ahead and assume you are right. When, in our society, did we stop caring for our neighbors? I might like my healthcare but they guy down the street who lost his job could sure use a helping hand the next time he gets sick. What about the homeless guy who lives downtown selling newspapers and writing poetry for spare change? He is never drunk or on drugs but i'll be damned if that cough isn't persistent. Doubt he will ever see a doctor. These two are real people that I know, not hypothetical situations. Most middle class americans, even the ones with insurance, are one illness away from complete financial ruin because of our for profit healthcare system.

I do agree that the dems will be shocked in 2012 but only if they fail to pass meaningful HC reform.

[Biscuit]

You never heard of fake SS#'s?

"Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions."


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html

That article has nothing to do with former illegal immigrants now back in Mexico receiving checks from the SS administration.

That article was basically stating that because illegal immigrants can get fake SS cards those of us who are legal citizens are benefiting from what the illegals are paying in.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

[Random]

I am have not heard of this but how could an illegal immigrant that paid zero taxes while working in the U.S. be in the SS system to receive a check from it? They don't have a SS#, they haven't paid any taxes, and they are not in the system, so how could the SS people get their address or even determine how much money to send them?

I think the "sending SS money to illegal immigrants" story comes from the same people who brought us "death panels", "FEMA camps", and "North American Union".

[Praktik]

I think the "sending SS money to illegal immigrants" story comes from the same people who brought us "death panels", "FEMA camps", and "North American Union".

If I had a magical genie I would wish that all illegal immigrants were miraculously removed from America (but given cushy landings - I'm not a jerk) - and then when America's ills continue unabated without the scapegoat, see Lou Dobbs and his ilk eat a piece of humble pie.

[Juniversal]

I couldn't disagree with you more.

First of all don't use the words "Union" and "Acorn" as if they are dirty words. Unions are to be thanked for many things that the average worker takes for granted. The abuse that ACORN has put up with since turning its own volunteers in is disgusting.



http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342

If the republicans and the for profit healthcare companies would be honest and stop spreading lies about death panels, forced participation, and the end of private health care we might actually have meaningful reform in this country.

Please prove that the majority of americans are content with their healthcare. And also prove why they wouldn't be even more content if a public option forced the HC companies to lower their rates.

Lets go ahead and assume you are right. When, in our society, did we stop caring for our neighbors? I might like my healthcare but they guy down the street who lost his job could sure use a helping hand the next time he gets sick. What about the homeless guy who lives downtown selling newspapers and writing poetry for spare change? He is never drunk or on drugs but i'll be damned if that cough isn't persistent. Doubt he will ever see a doctor. These two are real people that I know, not hypothetical situations. Most middle class americans, even the ones with insurance, are one illness away from complete financial ruin because of our for profit healthcare system.

I do agree that the dems will be shocked in 2012 but only if they fail to pass meaningful HC reform.Agreed. During the 2004 election I worked for an organization called ACT Ohio (suggested by my history teacher) and one of the guys I worked with worked for ACORN as well registering voters. It was a good opportunity for high school kids.

But after all some of these kids (I was 16 and I believe the guy that worked for ACORN was too) were lazy and as far as I remember were paid per registration. Hence the "voter fraud" during the last election. Not a matter of ACORN's wrong doing but certain employees. Even still the Right has rail roaded them (and periodically incite the ACORN name as if it's a bad word) when in reality they provide great opportunities for under privileged communities.

[Cicero]

That article has nothing to do with former illegal immigrants now back in Mexico receiving checks from the SS administration.

Of course "former" illegals in Mexico are not getting SS checks. But McCain suggested they should.

That article was basically stating that because illegal immigrants can get fake SS cards those of us who are legal citizens are benefiting from what the illegals are paying in.

You said that:

I am have not heard of this but how could an illegal immigrant that paid zero taxes while working in the U.S. be in the SS system to receive a check from it? They don't have a SS#, they haven't paid any taxes, and they are not in the system,

Now you say legal citizens are benefiting from the FICA taxes that you said illegals did not pay.

[LostAngeles]

You and a whole lot of other people. A whole lot.

I was all for McCain during '00 and was happy to see him in '08... until he went right off the *********** rails into WTFland, Population: TRUE AMERICANS.

I may be a crazy-ass liburle, but there is a great deal of value in conservatism.

If I had a magical genie I would wish that all illegal immigrants were miraculously removed from America (but given cushy landings - I'm not a jerk) - and then when America's ills continue unabated without the scapegoat, see Lou Dobbs and his ilk eat a piece of humble pie.

I want to watch all the employers scramble to find new, cheap labor and the populace complain about high prices.

All of which will be Obama's fault (or Bush's, depending on the political leanings of the speaker) and not Praktik's fault for making that damn wish!

[Biscuit]

Of course "former" illegals in Mexico are not getting SS checks. But McCain suggested they should.



You said that:



Now you say legal citizens are benefiting from the FICA taxes that you said illegals did not pay.

I think there is a little confusion here. Someone at the town hall asked if McCain supported sending SS money to former illegal immigrants in mexico. I stated that the concept seems impossible and also incorrectly stated that the illegal immigrants don't pay SS taxes.

I think you were merely trying to show that illegal immigrants can and do pay taxes. I thought you were trying to show that former illegal immigrants are getting their SS checks mailed to Mexico. I apologize for the confusion.

Also I have heard of fake SS cards but I didn't realize employers actual registered their illegal workers. I was under the impression that an illegal would simply show the card and employers looked the other way. The amount of money being paid in by these workers is shocking.

[gnome]

I can confirm that employers sometimes (perhaps unknowingly) report illegal workers for payroll and benefits. My girlfriend worked in a payroll company and she often had to reject invalid social security numbers. It's probably a case where the illegal gave a fake SS# and pretended to be a valid citizen.

[Darth Rotor]

In a time of two wars, where one never should have been


TAM:)
You wasted all the words after those, as you stopped addressing his question, and you both went a bit OT in any event.

DR

[Drysdale]

I couldn't disagree with you more.

First of all don't use the words "Union" and "Acorn" as if they are dirty words. Unions are to be thanked for many things that the average worker takes for granted. The abuse that ACORN has put up with since turning its own volunteers in is disgusting.



http://www.acorn.org/index.php?id=12342

If the republicans and the for profit healthcare companies would be honest and stop spreading lies about death panels, forced participation, and the end of private health care we might actually have meaningful reform in this country.

Please prove that the majority of americans are content with their healthcare. And also prove why they wouldn't be even more content if a public option forced the HC companies to lower their rates.

Lets go ahead and assume you are right. When, in our society, did we stop caring for our neighbors? I might like my healthcare but they guy down the street who lost his job could sure use a helping hand the next time he gets sick. What about the homeless guy who lives downtown selling newspapers and writing poetry for spare change? He is never drunk or on drugs but i'll be damned if that cough isn't persistent. Doubt he will ever see a doctor. These two are real people that I know, not hypothetical situations. Most middle class americans, even the ones with insurance, are one illness away from complete financial ruin because of our for profit healthcare system.

I do agree that the dems will be shocked in 2012 but only if they fail to pass meaningful HC reform.

They are what they are.

Many of the unions have became that which they were created to fight against. If ever there was an analogy to Animal Farm it is the big unions.

And Acorn has had many more scandals than just the voter fraud last election.

But back to the OP. This is not the time for a complete overhaul. If there ever is. We are going further and further into debt. People are losing jobs and houses, increasing taxes on the people that still have jobs isnt the answer. Which this will do.

Does there need to be some tinkering with it? Oh yea, without question.
But to try a complete overhaul when we cant even pay the bills we have is just crazy. I think that's the view of most people. It isnt screw them that dont have insurance, it's why create more people without insurance not to mention the medicare/medicaid cuts to get there.

And these bills as is still wont cover everyone without insurance anyway.

[Upchurch]

And Acorn has had many more scandals than just the voter fraud last election.
You're silly. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_whoppers_of_2008_--_the_sequel.html)

[Juniversal]

And Acorn has had many more scandals than just the voter fraud last election.The voter fraud should have never been a big story. ACORN (the organization) was not responsible for any voter fraud. Blaming ACORN for the actions of a few lazy employees that either wanted to meet quota or make easy money is akin to blaming a store for an employee that steals.

[GreNME]

You're silly. (http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_whoppers_of_2008_--_the_sequel.html)

Obvious librul bias.

[Upchurch]

Obvious librul bias.
You're right. Only die-hard liberals would reference that site. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12901-2004Oct6.html)

Now, I'm silly.

[GreNME]

You're right. Only die-hard liberals would reference that site. (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12901-2004Oct6.html)

Now, I'm silly.

Even more librul bias.

Unless it's freerepublic, LGF, or conservapedia, it's obviously a pack of lies.

:p

[Wangler]

What would really kick ass is if this John McCain could help bring the discourse in the country back to solving the problems instead of just being about stopping the Democrats from being successful.

Those might actually be one in the same.

;)

[Polaris]

If it were not so painfully obvious that an even uglier whackadoodle was already being groomed by the radical right to replace him before the dust of the election had settle, I would suggest that he retire now.

Despite my father calling me every few weeks to tell me I should listen to Glenn Beck :mad:, I've tried to stay out of domestic politics since the election. So forgive me, but who are you implying is being tapped?

[BenBurch]

In fact, illegals often pay into SOMEBODY ELSE's social security and never benefit from it at all.

They give fake credentials to get a job, and those have to include a SS#.

So, there are people with an amazingly high contribution to social security...

...but who also wind up getting tax problems because of all the income they are reported to have and the low rate it was withheld at won't cover a huge income like that. Fortunately the IRS knows this problem well and can deal with it.

[Biscuit]

They are what they are.

Ok I am convinced.:rolleyes:

Many of the unions have became that which they were created to fight against. If ever there was an analogy to Animal Farm it is the big unions.

Unions were not created to fight against anything, they were created to fight for workers rights. This is a function they carry out to this day. Are you suggesting that Unions are responsible for unsafe work conditions, unfair hiring procedures, and wages so low one can barely survive?

And Acorn has had many more scandals than just the voter fraud last election.

Such as?

But back to the OP. This is not the time for a complete overhaul. If there ever is. We are going further and further into debt. People are losing jobs and houses, increasing taxes on the people that still have jobs isnt the answer. Which this will do.

Does there need to be some tinkering with it? Oh yea, without question.
But to try a complete overhaul when we cant even pay the bills we have is just crazy. I think that's the view of most people. It isnt screw them that dont have insurance, it's why create more people without insurance not to mention the medicare/medicaid cuts to get there.

And these bills as is still wont cover everyone without insurance anyway.

What do you think the number one cause for people losing their houses and bankruptcy is in the United States? I will give you a hint, it isn't the threat of universal healthcare.

Our current healthcare policy in the U.S. is the leading cause of bankruptcy in America and has been steadily increasing for at least a decade.

To argue we can't afford healthcare reform is dead wrong. We can't afford to keep things the same.

Source

http://www.pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study/Bankruptcy-2009.pdf

How would more people be without insurance? This sound like as much of a right wing lie as the notion that medicare/medicaid would be cut.

[GreNME]

What would really kick ass is if this John McCain could help bring the discourse in the country back to solving the problems instead of just being about stopping the Democrats from being successful.

Those might actually be one in the same.

;)

The fact that the leadership and top loudmouths for the Republican Party seem to agree that they are one in the same is a damned shame, and not for the Republican or Democratic Parties.

[leftysergeant]

Despite my father calling me every few weeks to tell me I should listen to Glenn Beck :mad:, I've tried to stay out of domestic politics since the election. So forgive me, but who are you implying is being tapped?

Back during the election campaign, AZ State Senator Karen Johnson was positioning herself among the conservatives. She was also trying to use the WeAreChange hunger striker who was targetting McCain's headquarters for a new investigation into 9/11 as a stage prop in an address to the legislature.

She's about as far out on the right as they get within the GOP. Big name in the Eagle Forum. Totally wack.

[leftysergeant]

I think the press in particular and both parties, but especially the dems are misreading this badly. They are making their voices heard to both parties.

They are the voice of the extreme right of the GOP and makiong the voice of Newt Gingrich and Karl Rove heard. THey are, for the most part, not mentally stable.

The majority of legal Americans are content with their HC and dont want the govt getting involved and screwing it up like they are apt to do with a full blown ovehaul.

That would make sense if there were not so many without health care insurance or on Medicare or VA.

[Cicero]

That would make sense if there were not so many without health care insurance or on Medicare or VA.

Once you strip out the 15 million illegal aliens, that leaves the supposed 25 million without health care. But POTUs Obama has abandoned his wish to revamp health care and has opted for getting health care insurance under control. How is that going to help the 25 million uninsured?

[leftysergeant]

Once you strip out the 15 million illegal aliens, that leaves the supposed 25 million without health care.

Got proof?

Note that the survey was of people who were satisfied with the coverage they had. How could it, then, include those who have lost or were never able to buy coverage? How does it count those thrown off a policy because they were careless enough to actually get sick while covered?

You can't ask the right questions of people you can't find.

[Cicero]

Got proof?

Note that the survey was of people who were satisfied with the coverage they had. How could it, then, include those who have lost or were never able to buy coverage? How does it count those thrown off a policy because they were careless enough to actually get sick while covered?

You can't ask the right questions of people you can't find.

Orin Hatch has a lower number than 25 million.


"By the way, of that 47 million people, when you deduct the ones who could have insurance through their employers but don't, you deduct the 11 million that basically qualify for CHIP or Medicaid but don't realize it (and) are not enrolled, you deduct those who are over $75,000 a year in income but just won't purchase their own health insurance, and then 6 million people who are illegal aliens, my gosh, when you put that all together, it leaves about 15 million people. So we're going to throw out a system that works for 15 million people."
Orrin Hatch

[Earthborn]

Orin Hatch has a lower number than 25 million.Curiously enough, he also has a lower number of illegal immigrants than you do.

What Orrin Hatch is actually saying:
"By the way, of that 47 million people, when you deduct the ones who could have insurance, should have insurance, and if the US had a functioning health financing system would have insurance it leaves about zero million people."

His last sentence doesn't seem to support the US either:
"So we're going to throw out a system that works for 15 million people." To replace it with one that works for 300 million, I guess.

[Drysdale]

Orin Hatch has a lower number than 25 million.


"By the way, of that 47 million people, when you deduct the ones who could have insurance through their employers but don't, you deduct the 11 million that basically qualify for CHIP or Medicaid but don't realize it (and) are not enrolled, you deduct those who are over $75,000 a year in income but just won't purchase their own health insurance, and then 6 million people who are illegal aliens, my gosh, when you put that all together, it leaves about 15 million people. So we're going to throw out a system that works for 15 million people."
Orrin Hatch

Also, I've never seen the numbers on this but how many are ex vets that are eligible for VA care but just dont use it? How many of those are counted.

[ZirconBlue]

There's a reason why the word: "Again" appears in the title of this thread.

I was wondering about that. Does the "again" refer to the booing or the douchebaggery?


The meeting (http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2009/08/25/senator_mccains_townhall_meeting_98028.html) was in Sun City Arizona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_City,_Arizona).

Sun City is a retirement community.

I thought there was a ban on playing Sun City. Did I miss a memo?

But back to the OP. This is not the time for a complete overhaul. If there ever is. We are going further and further into debt. People are losing jobs and houses, increasing taxes on the people that still have jobs isnt the answer. Which this will do.

And a lot of those people losing their jobs are losing their healthcare coverage, as a result. That's one of the fundamental flaws with our Healthcare system, and one that only becomes worse during economic downturns. Now is when those people need help, not in some distant future (that never seems to come). When times are good, people say everythings fine, we don't need to fix the system; then when times are rough, it's "the system needs fixed, but we don't have the money."

[Dr Adequate]

I was wondering about that. Does the "again" refer to the booing or the douchebaggery? The booing. It happened on the campaign trail, when (IIRC) McCain answered a question about how Obama was a Secret Muslim by saying that no he wasn't.

[leftysergeant]

Orin Hatch has a lower number than 25 million.

Orin Hatch pulls a lot of stuff out of his butt.

[Kestrel]

That's one of the fundamental flaws with our Healthcare system, and one that only becomes worse during economic downturns. Now is when those people need help, not in some distant future (that never seems to come). When times are good, people say everythings fine, we don't need to fix the system; then when times are rough, it's "the system needs fixed, but we don't have the money."

The UK implemented it's national health care system in the middle of a severe economic downturn. If they could do it, why can't we?

[Checkmite]

The booing. It happened on the campaign trail, when (IIRC) McCain answered a question about how Obama was a Secret Muslim by saying that no he wasn't.

And on election night, when McCain had the nerve to congratulate Obama for winning, and explained that it was an historic night.

[Cicero]

And on election night, when McCain had the nerve to congratulate Obama for winning, and explained that it was an historic night.

Why did McCain wait until election night? Considering his lame campagining and poor debate performances, he might as well have conceded the election on June 3, 2008.

[Whiplash]

Cicero, what's the point?

People did boo, and they are fools for doing so. Are you trying to change the subject?

[GreNME]

Cicero, what's the point?

His sour grapes have turned to whine.

[ZirconBlue]

The UK implemented it's national health care system in the middle of a severe economic downturn. If they could do it, why can't we?

Yeah! If they can do it, why can't we? We need to show those lousy redcoats* that anything they can do, we can do better!



*Sorry 'bout that. Just thought we might be able to harness some of the USA's nationalistic pride to benefit our side, for once.

[Dr Adequate]

Why did McCain wait until election night? Considering his lame campagining and poor debate performances, he might as well have conceded the election on June 3, 2008. On June 3, 2008, he didn't know that choosing Palin as his running mate would be the lamest campaign strategy ever, and he didn't know that Obama would wipe the floor with him in the debates.

It's easy to be a quitter in hindsight. Your own hindsight appears to be 20/20. I would congratulate you, only it seems that this is not a unique distinction.

However, the wingnuts weren't booing him for not quitting on June 3, 2008. They were booing him for not being a douchebag.

[GreNME]

It's easy to be a quitter in hindsight.

Or, if following the Sara Palin School of Politics, it's easy to be a quitter. Full stop.