JFK: Third Shot

[NWO Sentryman]

When Kennedy gets hit by the third shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E66__vymfPA

Around 1:13, he is shot, but he leans backwards. This is cited as proof that a second gunman was on the grassy knoll.

So, what caused Kennedy's head to Jerk?

ETA: Sorry wrong place. Request moderators to move this to appropriate subforum.

[paximperium]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-zOrAL1V5Jg/SloSInLKfqI/AAAAAAAACag/SzDMA4lAZYw/s400/Picture25.jpg
Where is most of the mass being ejected from after a high velocity bullet hit?

[Big Les]

How many times has this been rehashed? See the McAdams (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/headwnd.htm) site.

[Liszt]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_-zOrAL1V5Jg/SloSInLKfqI/AAAAAAAACag/SzDMA4lAZYw/s400/Picture25.jpg
Where is most of the mass being ejected from after a high velocity bullet hit?

great picture, but there is about an equal mass of apple/brain each side - not enough to move it towards the gun, and the momentum of the bullet would easily swing it in the other direction.

The McAdams site isn't that good - for example, he didn't even watch the Z film frame by frame...

"Another factor that could be involved is acceleration of the car. I have no idea of when the car started to accelerate."

Is there a better explaination? (I know nothing about this subject, so cannot contribute)

[Big Les]

great picture, but there is about an equal mass of apple/brain each side - not enough to move it towards the gun, and the momentum of the bullet would easily swing it in the other direction.

Nonsense. There is far more material being ejected immediately behind the exiting bullet.

If that doesn't convince, what about this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1J3-QxFBQA)? Penn and Teller covered this in Bulls' Hit as well.

The McAdams site isn't that good - for example, he didn't even watch the Z film frame by frame...

Yes he did (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/organ2.htm), it's just that the site is a nightmare to navigate. My bad for posting only one page.


"Another factor that could be involved is acceleration of the car. I have no idea of when the car started to accelerate."

Is there a better explaination? (I know nothing about this subject, so cannot contribute)

It may be a factor, but the jet effect accounts for the 'anomalous' movement just fine.

[Bikewer]

When Zapruder first started being shown, everyone who looked at it said the same thing.

Everyone, that is, except folks who were familiar with ballistics and the effects high-velocity bullets have on the human body.
Likewise the so-called "magic bullet". People unfamiliar with ballistics could not credit that a bullet could penetrate two bodies and a car seat and still look almost pristine.
However, anyone familiar with FMJ military slugs know these projectiles can be dug out of stout backstops looking almost as if you could load 'em back into cartridge cases and fire 'em again.

[pgwenthold]

I always thought it was pretty obvious, at least from a physics standpoint.

If a head is initially relatively at rest, and you blow a chunk of brain/skull out the front, the rest of the head is going to have to recoil back to conserve momentum.

I honestly couldn't even understand the claim that "back and to the left" meant a bullet from the front. All it ever meant to me is that brains were blown out the front and right.

[parky76]

his body moves backwards after he is hit. i think his body just collapsed.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

So, what caused Kennedy's head to Jerk?

He was sneezing.

[oldhat]

Luis Alvarez' "jet effect" explanation and experiments are controversial among JFK conspiracy theorists because it's a piece of solid, reproducible evidence that there wasn't a shooter in front of the limo, hence Alvarez was a CIA plant and a shill.

[Corsair 115]

It is worth noting that there is film footage of the assassination from the opposite side, looking towards the infamous grassy knoll. This particular bit of home movie film is rarely shown though.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

It is worth noting that there is film footage of the assassination from the opposite side, looking towards the infamous grassy knoll. This particular bit of home movie film is rarely shown though.

I wonder what are "they" trying to hide? :)

[Ranb]

So I wonder what kind of definition people are using for the word pristine? Surely it can not be anything found in a dictionary. 1 : belonging to the earliest period or state. 2 : not spoiled, corrupted, or polluted.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u320/ranb40/firearms/Notpristine.jpg

CE 399 as found was useless as a projectile unless one used it in a sling shot. No way can any honest person claim it was pristine. When I confront CT's with this picture and the definition of pristine, they either fall back to "nearly pristine" or "that is not the bullet that hit JFK".

Ranb

[LordoftheLeftHand]

great picture, but there is about an equal mass of apple/brain each side - not enough to move it towards the gun, and the momentum of the bullet would easily swing it in the other direction.

The idea that the bullets momentum would push the object it hit backwards makes sense, but only if the bullet it stopped by the object. If it passes though easily only a fraction of the momentum would be transfered.

[Bikewer]

Folks have been debating the "knock-down" effects of bullets for as long as I can remember, which is a while...
The rather intuitive notion that a bullet transfers it's energy to a target in a linear manner, and thus pushing it backwards or in the case of a human, knocking the individual down. (or "spinning him around" which is supposed to occur with peripheral strikes.)

Unfortunately, bullets don't transfer energy that way, and they release almost all their energy far to rapidly to overcome the considerable inertia of something like a human body.

Way back in the 60s, when I was a teen interested in such things, the NRA's official magazine, The American Rifleman, had their technical staff do a test. They constructed a man-sized wooden manniken set up on roller-bearing casters. Only took a couple of pounds of force to set the thing in motion.
Then they proceeded to shoot at this item with a variety of weapons. As I recall, the most movement was caused by a military 30-06...About 2 inches. The .45 ACP achieved only 1/2".

Recent similar tests by The Mythbusters showed the same effect on a reinforced "Buster" dummy suspended from a short stud. Buster could easily be pushed off the stud by a person, but the weapons tested proved unable to move the dummy.

[Big Les]

Mythbusters did a great job, but this is my personal favourite illustration of that particular myth: a man shot with a .308 rifle (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdg&feature=PlayList&p=FED5EDA96BB5FE0F&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=67) (in body armour, of course) from just a few feet away, without even both feet on the ground. He barely moves.

[NobbyNobbs]

He was sneezing.

"He was sneezing his brains out."


Fixed.

[McHrozni]

When Kennedy gets hit by the third shot

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E66__vymfPA

Around 1:13, he is shot, but he leans backwards. This is cited as proof that a second gunman was on the grassy knoll.

So, what caused Kennedy's head to Jerk?

ETA: Sorry wrong place. Request moderators to move this to appropriate subforum.

In addition to what was already said, consider that had the force of the bullet knocked Kennedy over like we see in the film, the shooter would have to experience at least equal force in the opposite direction (increased by the amount of energy the bullet lost with air resistance and other losses).
What was he shooting him with? I believe a 40mm Bofor would be about adequate to the job, but this is just a guess.

Such weapons are notoriusly difficult to hide, among other problems:

http://cds038.am4.hwcdn.net/m5v9i3d8/cds/images/id_aaa_40mm_6_700.jpg

McHrozni

[NWO Sentryman]

But of course, the Kennedy nuts would say Net force Equals Zero.

[McHrozni]

But of course, the Kennedy nuts would say Net force Equals Zero.

Which is precisely the problem :D

McHrozni

[Retrograde]

Luis Alvarez' "jet effect" explanation and experiments are controversial among JFK conspiracy theorists because it's a piece of solid, reproducible evidence that there wasn't a shooter in front of the limo, hence Alvarez was a CIA plant and a shill.

Back in the good ole days of Usenet, there was a discussion of this on one of the groups. My all-time favorite True Believer statement: "What does this guy Alvarez know about physics anyway?".