Bizzare information surfacing from Guantanamo

[Undesired Walrus]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32605529/ns/us_news-washington_post/
After enduring the CIA's harshest interrogation methods and spending more than a year in the agency's secret prisons, Khalid Sheik Mohammed stood before U.S. intelligence officers in a makeshift lecture hall, leading what they called "terrorist tutorials."

In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture.

Speaking in English, Mohammed "seemed to relish the opportunity, sometimes for hours on end, to discuss the inner workings of al-Qaeda and the group's plans, ideology and operatives," said one of two sources who described the sessions, speaking on the condition of anonymity because much information about detainee confinement remains classified. "He'd even use a chalkboard at times."


Crazy stuff.

In related news, it seems the torture he endured produced a load of junk information:

Mohammed, in statements to the International Committee of the Red Cross, said some of the information he provided was untrue.

"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.


This is my favourite part:
But Mohammed has not abandoned his intellectual pursuits. He requested a Bible for study in his cell, according to the source, in order to better understand his enemy.

Wouldn't a constitution be a better tool to study from?

[JoeTheJuggler]

Yikes!

This reminds me a bit of the last scene in Animal Farm where there's a comment that it's hard to tell the pigs from the humans.

[volatile]

You know what - I don't think that's crazy at all. Actually listening to what grieves these people, and learning what makes them tick ideologically, seems to be the best way to go about figuring a strategy to defeat them. It's much easier to diffuse a bomb you have the wiring diagrams for, so to speak.

[willhaven]

These insights on the ineffectiveness of torture will likely be lost on those who believe it is necessary. They'll never ever concede that it actually makes things worse and wastes our precious intelligence resources.

[uruk]

These insights on the ineffectiveness of torture will likely be lost on those who believe it is necessary. They'll never ever concede that it actually makes things worse and wastes our precious intelligence resources.

Yea, but it is soooo coool when they do it on 24.

[mortimer]

These insights on the ineffectiveness of torture will likely be lost on those who believe it is necessary. They'll never ever concede that it actually makes things worse and wastes our precious intelligence resources.
You believe that KSM's claims that the torture was ineffective is an indication that the torture was ineffective?

I mean, maybe torture is counterproductive and ineffective, but I wouldn't use KSM's words as evidence of such.

[DavidJames]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32605529/ns/us_news-washington_post/


Crazy stuff.

In related news, it seems the torture he endured produced a load of junk information:



This is my favourite part:


Wouldn't a constitution be a better tool to study from?If this was in 2005/2006, a bible made sense, remember GWB was president ;)

[willhaven]

You believe that KSM's claims that the torture was ineffective is an indication that the torture was ineffective?

I mean, maybe torture is counterproductive and ineffective, but I wouldn't use KSM's words as evidence of such.Why not? KSM's claims seem to coincide with members of the CIA and other government organizations who state that torture is unnecessary and ineffective.

KSM isn't the only one saying this. Our own intelligence agents essentially say the same thing.

[Skeptic]

Crazy stuff.

Yes, but it cannot be blamed on Bush any more, so nobody cares. That Guatanamo is here to stay and not being closed -- despite promises -- is suddenly not proof of the evil fascistic purposes of the lying US governments any longer.

Really, people can be so inattentive to shifting conditions.

[rjh01]

A bible would not have been much good to him to understand his enemy (Bush). After all a lot of the bible is ignored. He would need help to know which bits to ignore.

As for the junk information that would probably be right. I wonder then what happened when they worked out the information was junk? Did the integrators get any feedback? If not then that would be a serious weakness in the interrogation.

[The Fool]

Yes, but it cannot be blamed on Bush any more, so nobody cares.

Nobody cares about what?



That Guatanamo is here to stay and not being closed -- despite promises --

what promises? and who has declared that Guantanamo is here to stay?



is suddenly not proof of the evil fascistic purposes of the lying US governments any longer.

who has claimed that it is proof of something...and what is that something? What are the evil facistic purposes it is proof of?

Really, people can be so inattentive to shifting conditions.
people are also generally inattentive of nebulous generalizing...can you add some specifics?

[geni]

Crazy stuff.


Not really. Playing to a person's ego is a long standing trick to get them to talk.

[MaGZ]

I recommend waterboarding for all future college professors.

[a_unique_person]

You believe that KSM's claims that the torture was ineffective is an indication that the torture was ineffective?

I mean, maybe torture is counterproductive and ineffective, but I wouldn't use KSM's words as evidence of such.

He confessed to so many acts of terrorism it seemed that his confessions could not have been true.

[Praktik]

Yes, but it cannot be blamed on Bush any more, so nobody cares.

Ummm.. I think it can still be blamed on Bush. I use the sibling-argument rule I invoked when confronted by angry parents: "HE STARTED IT!!"

[JihadJane]

Has he become a CIA asset or was he always one?

[Slayhamlet]

He confessed to so many acts of terrorism it seemed that his confessions could not have been true.

Yes, it's obvious not all of them can be true. But some of them have strong corroborating evidence that implicates him, in particular the Bojinka plot and 9/11.

I very much doubt the confessions were coerced, seeing as he unapologetically and willingly boasts of them at any chance he can. More likely he is trying to throw off interrogators and investigators, probably to protect other terrorists. The coercive measures (including torture) were not done for confessions, but for information about other terrorists and terrorism cells, and about other possible plots. Regardless, the confessions are still mostly useless as evidence, seeing as he's obviously unreliable.

[Undesired Walrus]

Has he become a CIA asset or was he always one?

No.

[Slayhamlet]

No.

Jihad Jane belongs on every thinking person's ignore list. What rubbish.

[Skeptic]

Ummm.. I think it can still be blamed on Bush.

Which is the only reason you still care about it.

[Cicero]

"In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture."

Will the ACLU will be defending Khalid Sheik Mohammed in his suit against the government for his "pudgy" condition?


"A Growing Threat at Guantanamo? Detainees Fatten Up"

"The detainees' meals total a whopping 4,200 calories per day. U.S. government dietary guidelines for weight maintenance recommend 2,000 to 3,000 calories per day."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2521953&page=1

[Ziggurat]

Why not?

Because he has an obvious incentive to lie. And his claim (that he fed his interrogators false information) is unverified.

[ingoa]

"In 2005 and 2006, the bearded, pudgy man who calls himself the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks discussed a wide variety of subjects, including Greek philosophy and al-Qaeda dogma. In one instance, he scolded a listener for poor note-taking and his inability to recall details of an earlier lecture."

Will the ACLU will be defending Khalid Sheik Mohammed in his suit against the government for his "pudgy" condition?


"A Growing Threat at Guantanamo? Detainees Fatten Up"

"The detainees' meals total a whopping 4,200 calories per day. U.S. government dietary guidelines for weight maintenance recommend 2,000 to 3,000 calories per day."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2521953&page=1

That make sense. Ever seen a fat terrorist? :D

[GlennB]

"A Growing Threat at Guantanamo? Detainees Fatten Up"

"The detainees' meals total a whopping 4,200 calories per day. U.S. government dietary guidelines for weight maintenance recommend 2,000 to 3,000 calories per day."

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2521953&page=1

Having watched "Supersize me", this alone is clear evidence of torture *

p.s. how many standard Big Mac meals (with fries and juice, say) would 4,200 calories be?

* ;)

[Cicero]

Having watched "Supersize me", this alone is clear evidence of torture *

p.s. how many standard Big Mac meals (with fries and juice, say) would 4,200 calories be?

* ;)

Even when the guy was waterboarded, he didn't consume any water. Who forced the food down this turd's throat?

Ask M&M, the docugandist. He could compute that, as well as consume that, in no time flat.

[The Fool]

Because he has an obvious incentive to lie. And his claim (that he fed his interrogators false information) is unverified.

yes! he could be lying about lying....

But have you considered he may have fabricated the lie about him having initially lied?

I'm glad this is getting clearer...

we should waterboard him to find out if the initial lie about the fabrication was a lie or the truth...or was it a lie?

[geni]

That make sense. Ever seen a fat terrorist? :D

Sure. Laurent-Désiré Kabila (or is he classified as a freedom fighter at the moment I lose track).

[Slayhamlet]

Because he has an obvious incentive to lie. And his claim (that he fed his interrogators false information) is unverified.

Okay, that would be conceivable if it were likely that he didn't provide mostly false information. But how likely is that? Why would he not have provided false information when being waterboarded if the interrogators had no way of knowing at the time whether it was true or not? I would suspect that even the interrogators knew they were going to get a lot of false information, but hoped that maybe he'd slip at some point and reveal something useful.

[willhaven]

Because he has an obvious incentive to lie. And his claim (that he fed his interrogators false information) is unverified.And those who wrote the memo who talk about false confessions? I assume KSM just paid them off? :confused:

[Ziggurat]

Okay, that would be conceivable if it were likely that he didn't provide mostly false information. But how likely is that? Why would he not have provided false information when being waterboarded if the interrogators had no way of knowing at the time whether it was true or not?

Several possible reasons: he might not know what they could or could not verify, and he might be afraid of future consequences of lying. Interrogators also often repeat questions later on, because it's hard to remember lots of spontaneous lies and you will often get your story confused, and so initial queries might be met with lies but the truth later revealed. But in fact, this is somewhat beside the point. In the end, it doesn't matter if he lied. What matters is how much useful and accurate information the interogators DID get out of him. And frankly, the IRC is in no position to know that, and he's got no motive to tell the truth about it.

[Wudang]

Wouldn't a constitution be a better tool to study from?

For him or his interrogators?

[leftysergeant]

I think it safe to say that KSM is no longer mentally well, although he may appear to function as though he were.

I would not trust any intelligence gathered from him through torture. Reports that I have heard suggest that he had already given up some actionable intel BEFORE the thugs got hold of him. He would, quite probably, remember at least some of what he had revealed and then confabulate a lot of stuff to reconcile seemingly contradictory statements later with what he had said after torture. He may even now believe some of his own BS.

[Praktik]

Which is the only reason you still care about it.

What am I thinking now??

This guy is uncanny!

[Leif Roar]

Wouldn't a constitution be a better tool to study from?

On Guantanamo Base? Apparently not.

[JihadJane]

Jihad Jane belongs on every thinking person's ignore list. What rubbish.

I wonder if Stayhamlet even knows what a CIA asset is.

[Wolrab]

Reports that I have heard suggest that he had already given up some actionable intel BEFORE the thugs got hold of him.

Thugs? Poor KSM. What did he ever do to deserve such treatment.

[boloboffin]

Thugs? Poor KSM. What did he ever do to deserve such treatment.

A court of law could have determined that.

[leftysergeant]

Thugs? Poor KSM. What did he ever do to deserve such treatment.

War criminals are thugs. Waterboarding is a war crime. The people who last questioned KSM included a group of thugs. The people who authorized them to waterboard him are thugs.

Torture does not produce reliable information. I make no apology for calling some of the people in the system thugs and I do not consider them good Americans.

[willhaven]

Because he has an obvious incentive to lie. And his claim (that he fed his interrogators false information) is unverified.Also forgot to mention, KSM also has an incentive to lie under torture as well. If he runs out of information, even if he's poured out everything he has, how do the interrogators know when he's done? How do they know what he's said is the truth?

He continues to spew nonsense and we have to waste time figuring out what's real and what isn't. If we're even able.

[Beerina]

Not arguing about the ethics of this kind of torture, but I highly doubt the interrogators and later analysists were unaware the info might be "tainted".

That people will tell their persecutors anything for a moment of reprieve ain't exactly news. Yet the interrogators proceeded anyway.

Why? Beyond pure evil for evil's sake, of course.