Vatican Official Says US Treated Saddam Like Cow

[headscratcher4]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20031216/wl_nm/iraq_saddam_vatican_dc

Cardinal says he felt sorry for Saddam because of the way he was treated by the US...

Would that he felt as sorry for the thousands of little boys (and girls) accross America who the Vatican has tried to ignore...ad hominim (sp?), I know, but the Vatican has historical problems when it comes to how people are treated (not to mention the Nazis they helped smuggle out of Europe after WW II).

[Luke T.]

Yeah. Our troops should have posed Saddam the way the Vatican is used to seeing him. In a green uniform with a rifle in his hand, firing into the air. That would have been better.

:rolleyes:

[crackmonkey]

We hardly humiliated the guy... we are not required to show Saddam in the manner to which he's accustomed. If his portayal in this video was insufficiently heroic to some...

fvcking cry me a river, bitch.

[GroundStrength]

Well, if he's begin treated like a cow. I can think of a good place to stick the cattle prod.

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by GroundStrength
Well, if he's begin treated like a cow. I can think of a good place to stick the cattle prod.

Something Saddam's police were wont to do on occasion....when they were being nice and caring of the dignity of their prisoners, of course.

[c0rbin]

"Where's the beef?"

[Larspeart]

"Vatican Official Says US Treated Saddam Like Cow "

Good!


Does any sane person see a problem with this? Forget politics, PR, etc. What is wrong with treating this 'man' like the animal he is/was to the Iraqis for decades?

[rikzilla]

Perhaps he meant that instead of treating him like a cow, we should have preserved his dignity and treated him like a deposed head of state. You know, like the Italian partisans did with Il Duce and his girlfriend.

-z

[American]

MOOOOOOO!

[Hexxenhammer]

Originally posted by Luke T.
Yeah. Our troops should have posed Saddam the way the Vatican is used to seeing him. In a green uniform with a rifle in his hand, firing into the air. That would have been better.

:rolleyes: Maybe if they'd dressed him in a frilly altar boy robe the vatican wouldn't have minded seeing them shoving things in Saddam's mouth.

[corplinx]

Vatican Official Says Saddam Treated Like Cow

Speaking on condition of anonymity, a nameless Vatican official has said that he has seen footage of the actual Saddam raid. Saddam is seen on the video standing in a field seemingly asleep.

According to the unnamed pedophile, US troopers in night vision goggles carrying assault rifles sneak up to Saddam without waking him. Then, one soldier shoves Saddam from his left side tipping him over at which point the troops all run away quickly laughing and being chased by an upset Iraqi farmer.

"This treatment of Saddam is inhumane and unjust, now pardon me while I get back to teabagging the flock's children".

[Shane Costello]

When exactly did the RC church demob St Michael the Archangel? When I was attending their services they concluded with the intonation "St Michael the Archangel defend us in the hour of conflict". Has that been replaced with something along the lines of "St Michael the Archangel refer to the UN and seek a diplomatic solution in the hour of conflict"?

If it's sounds like I'm rambling, then it's because my ability to think straight goes AWOL every time I hear any representative of the Catholic Church expound compassion or pity, since these have been very scarce when it comes to victims of clerical sexual abuse. Take the fact that the RC church in Ireland insured itself against claims arising from child sex abuse (www.paddydoyle.org/anger.html) and also concluded a deal with the government (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2003/01/11/story609908722.asp) to limit the amounts payable to abuse victims and indemnify the church against any further claims, then you see why Catholic compassion for murderous dictators makes my blood simmer.

[Darat]

Well I'm not surprised that the Vatican is outraged - I presume that they would have had him treated something more like a Pasteur in a church would have done? I.e.


http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dallas/newthishour/stories/121203dntexbiblebeating.967a6e95.html

...snip...

Prosecutors had said the brothers beat Guerrero, now 12, so badly on July 3, 2002, that he spent a week in intensive care under the threat of kidney failure and needed a blood transfusion.

...snip..


Strange that I can't find any evidence that the Vatican was interested in this incident, doesn't seem to have been any "Vatican official" making a statement about this. Yet they can take the time to make a statement about a notorious mass murderer and how he was given a medical examination… Glad to see they have their priorities in order.

(Thanks to Mercutio for bringing the above story to my attention in http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32358 )

[shecky]

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20031216/mdf427548.jpg
Open wide, Bessie.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by headscratcher4


Something Saddam's police were wont to do on occasion....when they were being nice and caring of the dignity of their prisoners, of course.
I don't think it behooves (oooh sorry for the pun) us to act like the people we hate. The fact that he's a butcher would not justify us stooping to that level. (I'm not saying we have.)
There is a point here, regardless of the source. PR, as we are finding, is very important in dealing with Arab sensibilities. We don't want to generate misguided sympathy for the SOB.
There is a great deal to be said for being magnanimous in victory.
There is no punishment too severe for this creature, but publicizing a horsewhipping, for example, would create a backlash.
I have previously suggested throwing him to the crowd. That culture seems to have a thirst for a public thrashing, and dragging through the streets. Would be emotionally cathartic for them. And it would be them doing it, not us.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Luke T.
Yeah. Our troops should have posed Saddam the way the Vatican is used to seeing him. In a green uniform with a rifle in his hand, firing into the air. That would have been better.

:rolleyes:

Or more like how they are used to seeing men and boys. Pants down and bent over a pew, or maybe on his knees. I think that's the picture they'd rather have

[Troll]

Originally posted by subgenius

I don't think it behooves (oooh sorry for the pun) us to act like the people we hate. The fact that he's a butcher would not justify us stooping to that level. (I'm not saying we have.)
There is a point here, regardless of the source. PR, as we are finding, is very important in dealing with Arab sensibilities. We don't want to generate misguided sympathy for the SOB.
There is a great deal to be said for being magnanimous in victory.
There is no punishment too severe for this creature, but publicizing a horsewhipping, for example, would create a backlash.
I have previously suggested throwing him to the crowd. That culture seems to have a thirst for a public thrashing, and dragging through the streets. Would be emotionally cathartic for them. And it would be them doing it, not us.

To be honest, if we really wanted to show Arabs we agreed with them, we'd have already taken him to a public square and lobbed his head off. But we're trying to teah democracy so we've taught them to wait until after the trial to do that

[headscratcher4]

Originally posted by subgenius

I don't think it behooves (oooh sorry for the pun) us to act like the people we hate. The fact that he's a butcher would not justify us stooping to that level. (I'm not saying we have.)
There is a point here, regardless of the source. PR, as we are finding, is very important in dealing with Arab sensibilities. We don't want to generate misguided sympathy for the SOB.
There is a great deal to be said for being magnanimous in victory.
There is no punishment too severe for this creature, but publicizing a horsewhipping, for example, would create a backlash.
I have previously suggested throwing him to the crowd. That culture seems to have a thirst for a public thrashing, and dragging through the streets. Would be emotionally cathartic for them. And it would be them doing it, not us.

Actually, I completely agree with the premise of your point --my snide comment about Saddam's police aside.

However, and we just may disagree with this, nothing about the way that Saddam was handled by the US, I think, was inhumaine or cruel. Further, as I and others have said inother places, some of the pictures showing his state of duress were critical to the Arab world...i.e. demonstrating to Iraqis (who celebrated in the street, and I think honestly this time, unlike the stagged affair witht he statue in Bahgdad) that Saddam is no longer a menace or a threat to their future. And, also, importantly, to other Arabs: that tyrants can fall, that there is a hope of justice. In short, I would argue that what the Vatican saw as inhumaine treatment to Saddam, was sending a very humaine message to Arab masses.

I believe, also, that while there may be abuses in how the US treats prisoners, in general the word gets out. It isn't just that we will and are going to treat Saddam far better than he ever treated anyone in his power, it is that we will do so in public and in a geometric progression higher. He will have a trial. He will have a chance to answer the charges against him. He will have an opportunity to voice his concerns about the way he has been treated and any "abuse" that he experiences. In other words, the world is watching.

These are not perfect exersizes. But, I think overall, there are a lot of crockodile tears being shed over Saddam's treatment, not by people on this site -- for example, I think JJ and I differ on this but that JJ has a genuine sense of what proper treatment is and how it should be extended to the highest and lowliest of people -- but globally. I think the new found interest of many in human dignity as extended to Saddam has been lacking in too many prounouncements here to fore.

In any event, certainly, two wrongs don't make a right. But, at this stage I am not convinced that a wrong has been done.

I am convinced, however, by beginning this thread, that the hypocracy on the part of the vatican is quite astonishing and rings so hollow. Not that there aren't men (and women) of good will in the Vatican, but like all political entities across the globe, they are selective in their outrage. (as, BTW, is the US Govt.).

P.S. in the end, I think we are being magnanamous in victory...he is alive, he will be reasonably well fed and treated (small infractions aside) and he will stand trial in public....something few in the Arab world can expect from their own governments.

[subgenius]

I don't think we've done anything inhumane or cruel either, but we may not be playing the PR game as well as we could.

[aerocontrols]

http://www.latech.edu/tech/orgs/collegerepublicans/cowboy_george.jpg

Get Along, Little Dogie

[corplinx]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
http://www.latech.edu/tech/orgs/collegerepublicans/cowboy_george.jpg

Get Along, Little Dogie

Dude, that photo is sooooooo WestWorld.

[aerocontrols]

Originally posted by corplinx
Dude, that photo is sooooooo WestWorld. Never seen it. Is it any good?

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by aerocontrols
Never seen it. Is it any good?

Yes.

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Originally posted by headscratcher4
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20031216/wl_nm/iraq_saddam_vatican_dc

Cardinal says he felt sorry for Saddam because of the way he was treated by the US...

Would that he felt as sorry for the thousands of little boys (and girls) accross America who the Vatican has tried to ignore...ad hominim (sp?), I know, but the Vatican has historical problems when it comes to how people are treated (not to mention the Nazis they helped smuggle out of Europe after WW II).

I'm sorry, what did your post say? I read "Vatican Official Says" and then my brain went into Ignore mode.

[CurtC]

aerocontrols wrote:
Never seen it. Is it any good?Did you see Jurassic Park? Same exact author, same exact story, just replace T-rex with Yul Brenner in a cowboy outfit.

[NoZed Avenger]

Originally posted by CurtC
Did you see Jurassic Park? Same exact author, same exact story, just replace T-rex with Yul Brenner in a cowboy outfit.


Best.Movie.Review.EVER.

[Zep]

Saddam has been treated right nice by his captors so far. They have probably even given him a local anaesthetic before starting the sodium pentathol drip...

Truly though...

No complaints from what I have seen so far. He seemed to have been treated firmly but fairly. And I expect he will get more of the same, at least until he gets put into some dark, dank cell at the arse-end of the world somewhere.

[subgenius]

"Treating him right...." is according to our standards.
We have a vested interest in winning over the populace of the country we are occupying.
Seeing things from their point of view is therefore essential.
The images being shown may be more counterproductive than if we let him loose and let "his own people" rip him limb from limb and drag his body parts through the streets. It would be them, and not us (US) dispensing "justice" (especially since our definition differs quantitatively from theirs).
It would be appalling by Western standards (it is more important right now to appeal to the Iraqi people, than appear to be "pure" to other Western nations), but cathartic, healing, and understandable by their's.
Whatever blame for this would be from (some) Arabic people to (some) other Arabic people, rather than the "infidel Crusaders", against whom (virtually) all Arabs are united.
Why are we again imposing our standards on another country (even if they are "higher" in our opinion)? This will cause (some) resentment, understandably.
Oh, and here's my latest thought, maybe I'll start a thread:
Have a big trial, and hire Johnny Cochrane to defend him.
Want a fair trial, according to our standards? Then prepare for the possibility of him being acquitted. Wouldn't that be funny. (I know what defense I would use.)
If Johnny can get OJ off (under our "higher" standards) then anything is possible.
Watch what you ask for, you might get it.
(Edited for punctuation....bob, I love punctuation)

[richardm]

Originally posted by subgenius

Have a big trial, and hire Johnny Cochrane to defend him.
Want a fair trial, according to our standards? Then prepare for the possibility of him being acquitted. Wouldn't that be funny. (I know what defense I would use.)
If Johnny can get OJ off (under our "higher" standards) then anything is possible.
Watch what you ask for, you might get it.


Yep, there's always a possibility that he might be acquitted by a court. However, since there are several courts around the world itching for a go, it seems likely that one or more will get him jailed (or executed) on one charge or another.

[jimmygun]

I didn't realize someone had started this thread before I started another in Religion. I paste my comments here to share....

I must have missed the news the day the Vatican spoke up about the Kurds that were gassed to death or the compassion they felt for the prisoners that were tied to posts and had Saddam's henchman walk along and put a bullet into their heads.

One word....disgusting!

[Marc]

If we were Hindus wouldn't he want to be treated like a cow? :p


But he wasn't treated like one. He was treated like a human, and given a medical exam. I would suspect if there were any problems found he would have been given proper treatment too. From the look of it wherever he is being kept is probably a lot better living conditions than where he was hiding.


What is being object to are the images shown on TV. So what? We have not been parading his body all around the square, they showed a few seconds worth of video showing he was being cared for.

[Brown]

"Vatican Official Says Saddam Treated Like Cow."

I'd say the question is mooOOoot.

[Ed]

Originally posted by subgenius
[BOh, and here's my latest thought, maybe I'll start a thread:
Have a big trial, and hire Johnny Cochrane to defend him.
Want a fair trial, according to our standards? Then prepare for the possibility of him being acquitted. Wouldn't that be funny. (I know what defense I would use.)
[/B]

"If there be no WMD's, his assets you can't freeze"

"If the dead Kurd's ain't talkin', my boy is walkin'"

"That weren't no nerve gas, that was his arab ass"


Gotta love Johnny. Loved the take off in Sienfeld:D

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Ed


"If there be no WMD's, his assets you can't freeze"

"If the dead Kurd's ain't talkin', my boy is walkin'"

"That weren't no nerve gas, that was his arab ass"


Gotta love Johnny. Loved the take off in Sienfeld:D
Excellent. I was trying to come up with the catch phrase he would use.

[Ed]

Originally posted by subgenius

Excellent. I was trying to come up with the catch phrase he would use.

My pleasure. I am a BIG Johnny fan.

Memorable OJ moment #45: Johnny gets fined by that chop suey judge for an amount that was a fraction of the value of the tie he was wearing that day:D

[subgenius]

And when one of the prosecutors was getting cited for contempt he demanded a lawyer. What a twit, he is a lawyer....great confidence in your own ability.

[LFTKBS]

Basically I tend to go with whatever the exact opposite of what the Catholic Church says. Even though I'm apparently a "Saddam lover" (because I think the justification for the war on Iraq was based on lies, and have evidence for that), I don't really care how they treat him - torture and whatnot aside.

[Nucular]

Originally posted by LFTKBS
Basically I tend to go with whatever the exact opposite of what the Catholic Church says. Even though I'm apparently a "Saddam lover" (because I think the justification for the war on Iraq was based on lies, and have evidence for that), I don't really care how they treat him - torture and whatnot aside. I agree with your thing about the premise for war (though I think we really should be treating Saddam within ALL human rights directives, including not doing anything which constitutes torture - the definition of which doesn't just involve electrodes and amateur dentistry).

But I wonder if, in a fair trial, the situation could be regarded similarly to when a known criminal is arrested illegally? Guilty or not, could his case rest on the justification for war? Could he get off because of wrongful arrest, biased jury, manipulation/fabrication of evidence, or stuff like that? They should all be possible outcomes of a fair trial, surely?

[subgenius]

Yeah watch out for a fair trial.
Reminds me of a guy who was running for judge here in Detroit.
A guy in the audience asked, "If I'm charged with a crime what can I expect if I come before you?"
The candidate replied, "A fair trial."
The guy says, "Hell if I'm charged with a crime that's the last thing I want."

[c0rbin]

Dude, that photo is sooooooo WestWorld.

http://www.corbinrussell.com/staging/marlboro7.jpg

[jimmygun]

Just sitting around the table tonight and the subject of Saddam came up. I mentioned to my wife and mother-in-law almost verbatim the post I made in this thread earlier. I told them it was disgusting that the Vatican could voice such empathy with a murderer and sadist while remaining quiet about his tens of thousands of victims.

Absolute silence from both of them. Not a peep or even eye contact. Was the silence like that of a child caught in the act and not knowing what to say or do? No, it was the silence of ignoring, the silence that allows them to continue to believe and not question. Did I get through to either of them? Not one bit.

Here in lies the evils of religion, that followers will stand by silent and not protest their leaders absolutely disgusting behaviour. It is what allows the Catholic church to cover up and move pediphiles without either legal responsibility or even concience.

[fishbob]

Absolute silence from both of them. Not a peep or even eye contact. My condolences. I do not talk religion or politics with my parents or with my in-laws.