karl Edward Wagners assessment of Eden and the fall.

[Cainkane1]

Karl Edward Wagner was a science fiction writer who created a character he called Kane apparently after the biblical Cain. Throughout the excellant stories in his series you can glean parts of kanes history. Kane was the son of Lilith not Eve. His half brother Abel found favor with a God whom kane had no respect for whatsoever. He murdered Able as a sacrifice to a greater unnamed God of his own choosing. Fpr this he was cursed with immortality and his mark was the murder in his evil eyes. Man didn't fall but this kept the disliked God from "playing with his dolls". Kane destroyed the "sterile paradise" and this allowed mankind to develope on its own terms for better or for worse. kane sometimes fought on the same side as "Sathonys" aka satan and sometimes against him. Sometimes kane actually fought demons. Kane is an anti hero. Everything he does is for his own welfare. Kane is not Conan.

Karl edward wagner died in the 90's. One of wagners planned books was kanes plot to destroy God forever. He died but the outline of the book exists.

I hated to hear that ol Karl had died of alcoholism and lime disease. I really miss his stories.

[HansMustermann]

The "greater god" part sounds especially gnostic, IMHO, and the idea of spinning Caine into a more positive light isn't new. There actually was a 2'nd century sect gnostic sect called the Cainites who worshipped Caine as the first human cursed by the evil god JHWH. Apparently they also thought that by creating murder, Caine allowed humans to deny it and thus save themselves from the original sin.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03143a.htm

Various other people also played with the characters Caine, Lilith and the like, the most obvious being the White Wolf RPG systems and books. And some hebrew midrash (medieval rabinic fanfic, basically;)) is also devoted to those.

I guess I'll have to actually get one of Wagner's books to see if they're any good. But the theme doesn't sound necessarily that unique.

[Praktik]

And apparently among some gnostics Judas wasn't such a bad guy either (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21317)

[imjohn]

The Kane stories were great.

Karl Edward Wagner was also a great editor. His contributions to horror fiction were incredible.

[Cainkane1]

This post definitely failed to take off but if you want to read a well written adventure story by a less than pious author then Karl Edward wagner is your man.

[John Mayer]

"I guess I'll have to actually get one of Wagner's books to see if they're any good. But the theme doesn't sound necessarily that unique." The determination that they're good is not yours to make; that has been widely accepted, to the extent that there is now a British fantasy award named after him. You can only decide whether or not they suit your tastes. As to whether or not Wagner's Kane stories (he wrote others) are entirely "unique," well, "Sub sole nihil novi es." But, since he began writing them in the early 60's, it's a safe bet he wasn't
influenced by the White Wolf role-playing game. He was mostly influenced by the ponderous gothic novels (the real, original ones) of the Victorian era and his reading of the classics (Paradise Lost, etc.). And, oh yeah, the Bible. I'm not quite sure where midrash would come in or in what way those commentaries are similar to fan-fic, but he certainly knew about many of the Hebrew traditions surrounding Cain, and some of the stories suggest that he might only have been Abel's half-brother, with Lilith as his mother. Whether he knew of the Cainite sect I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me since his pre-med degree was in history. Certainly the Gnostic concept of a creator who was cruel and to be resisted and opposed was in keeping with the Kane stories. Unfortunately, Karl did not live long enough to finish the saga of Kane's struggle against the god who cursed him, though one of the later stories gives us an idea as to the outcome. When the main character is trying to recover his wits after some sort of binge and invokes God, Kane responds with the familiar Nietzsche quote "God is dead." When the inebriate asks, sardonically, who killed Him, Kane replies "I did." But he was also at war with the embodiment of evil. Karl died before he reached 50 and left the story, sadly, unfinished. I'm developing a Wagner website; can't post URL's, but East of Eden and Kane or Wagner should turn it up. More links there.

[Cainkane1]

"I guess I'll have to actually get one of Wagner's books to see if they're any good. But the theme doesn't sound necessarily that unique." The determination that they're good is not yours to make; that has been widely accepted, to the extent that there is now a British fantasy award named after him. You can only decide whether or not they suit your tastes. As to whether or not Wagner's Kane stories (he wrote others) are entirely "unique," well, "Sub sole nihil novi es." But, since he began writing them in the early 60's, it's a safe bet he wasn't
influenced by the White Wolf role-playing game. He was mostly influenced by the ponderous gothic novels (the real, original ones) of the Victorian era and his reading of the classics (Paradise Lost, etc.). And, oh yeah, the Bible. I'm not quite sure where midrash would come in or in what way those commentaries are similar to fan-fic, but he certainly knew about many of the Hebrew traditions surrounding Cain, and some of the stories suggest that he might only have been Abel's half-brother, with Lilith as his mother. Whether he knew of the Cainite sect I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me since his pre-med degree was in history. Certainly the Gnostic concept of a creator who was cruel and to be resisted and opposed was in keeping with the Kane stories. Unfortunately, Karl did not live long enough to finish the saga of Kane's struggle against the god who cursed him, though one of the later stories gives us an idea as to the outcome. When the main character is trying to recover his wits after some sort of binge and invokes God, Kane responds with the familiar Nietzsche quote "God is dead." When the inebriate asks, sardonically, who killed Him, Kane replies "I did." But he was also at war with the embodiment of evil. Karl died before he reached 50 and left the story, sadly, unfinished. I'm developing a Wagner website; can't post URL's, but East of Eden and Kane or Wagner should turn it up. More links there.
When you have the website up and running please post it.

[Wudang]

You mean this? http://www.karledwardwagner.org/

[Cainkane1]

You mean this? http://www.karledwardwagner.org/
I've read everythink by karl Edward Wagner I could lay my hands on.

[Agular]

You mean this? http://www.karledwardwagner.org/

That site foolishly contains embedded audio.

[John Mayer]

That site foolishly contains embedded audio.
The site is not foolish. Websites must do their webmaster's bidding as they have no intellect of their own, at least for now. I put the audio there, and I, not the website, must bear the responsibility for that "foolish" decision. So far most who have commented at all have liked it. Of course, I've no way of knowing how many who didn't care for it were just too polite to comment. I'll confess I do wish I knew how to include a silence option, but I'm teaching myself this stuff as I find time.

So the "foolish" designation is nothing more than your foolish opinion, unless you have substantive reasons for advising against it. Otherwise, it's a case of "De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum." But thanks for visiting!

~ John Mayer

[quixotecoyote]

~ John Mayer

Don't worry John, the rest of us were quite capable of realizing he wasn't implying your website was a sentient being, but thanks for looking out for us.

[Cainkane1]

I like the website myself.

[Agular]

I put the audio there, and I, not the website, must bear the responsibility for that "foolish" decision. So far most who have commented at all have liked it. Of course, I've no way of knowing how many who didn't care for it were just too polite to comment. I'll confess I do wish I knew how to include a silence option, but I'm teaching myself this stuff as I find time.

So the "foolish" designation is nothing more than your foolish opinion, unless you have substantive reasons for advising against it. Otherwise, it's a case of "De gustibus et coloribus non est disputandum." But thanks for visiting!

~ John Mayer

Good of you to admit that the foolish decision was yours. Most people don't like embedded audio and find it annoying. Whether or not you think it's polite or not is not something I will lose sleep over, nor will I over the rest of your smarmy comments.

At any rate, for your edification:

http://www.labnol.org/internet/design/html-embed-mp3-songs-podcasts-music-in-blogs-websites/2232/

[Madalch]

I hated to hear that ol Karl had died of alcoholism and lime disease.

That makes it sound like he drank too many mojitos.

[John Mayer]

Agular said: “Good of you to admit that the foolish decision was yours. Most people don't like embedded audio and find it annoying. Whether or not you think it's polite or not is not something I will lose sleep over, nor will I over the rest of your smarmy comments.”

You beast! And I’ve scarcely slept a wink, tormented by the realization that you think badly of my efforts at creating a website. I suppose, though, that I must accept that anyone who has chosen Beethoven as his avatar will set a very high standard for music.

I actually DO appreciate your link, though. As may be all too obvious, that website (and a couple of others) is not my primary concern, but I actually had meant to address the sound issue when time permits, at least to the extent of an “Off” button. So you have done me a favor by forcing me to revisit the issue. Thanks.

I also must apologize if you think I was overly ingratiating in my response. Or was “smarmy” really the word you had in mind?

smarm⋅y  [smahr-mee] –adjective, smarm⋅i⋅er, smarm⋅i⋅est.
excessively or unctuously flattering, ingratiating, servile, etc.: the emcee with the smarmy welcome.

[John Mayer]

I like the website myself.

Thanks, Cainkane1. Now your opinion I value. :)

No doubt, though I hate to admit it, Agular might have a point. I need to spend more time on the site, at least insofar as keeping it up to date is concerned. There are some design issues, too. But then, as I admitted, webdesign is something I’m learning in drips and drabs as time permits.

But you will have seen on the site our efforts at establishing a Karl Edward Wagner horror festival here in his hometown. If it becomes a reality I hope you’ll consider attending.

[John Mayer]

Don't worry John, the rest of us were quite capable of realizing he wasn't implying your website was a sentient being, but thanks for looking out for us.

Ah. It seems I have underestimated you.

[Agular]

You beast! And I’ve scarcely slept a wink, tormented by the realization that you think badly of my efforts at creating a website. I suppose, though, that I must accept that anyone who has chosen Beethoven as his avatar will set a very high standard for music.

I'm actually very fussy about the music I listen to, but as you are well aware, that had nothing to do with the original criticism. Other sarcasm ignored.


I actually DO appreciate your link, though. As may be all too obvious, that website (and a couple of others) is not my primary concern, but I actually had meant to address the sound issue when time permits, at least to the extent of an “Off” button. So you have done me a favor by forcing me to revisit the issue. Thanks.

Oh good. Perhaps I will visit it again after preparing myself for what's in store.


I also must apologize if you think I was overly ingratiating in my response. Or was “smarmy” really the word you had in mind?

smarm⋅y  [smahr-mee] –adjective, smarm⋅i⋅er, smarm⋅i⋅est.
excessively or unctuously flattering, ingratiating, servile, etc.: the emcee with the smarmy welcome.

Sorry, no. Try one of these:

1. (http://smarmy.urbanup.com/591212) smarmy A certain attitude often accompanied by a squinty look and a superior smile that makes you instantly hate a person. Similar to snobby.
He/she/it is totally smarmy, I want to punch them in the face.

or:

Main Entry: smarmy
Pronunciation: \ˈsmär-mē\
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): smarm·i·er; smarm·i·est
Etymology: smarm to gush, slobber
Date: 1924
1 : revealing or marked by a smug, ingratiating, or false earnestness <a tone of smarmy self-satisfaction — New Yorker>

2 : of low sleazy taste or quality <smarmy eroticism>

Take your pick.

[Achán hiNidráne]

He murdered Able as a sacrifice to a greater unnamed God of his own choosing.

Sounds almost Lovecraftian.

[imjohn]

Sounds almost Lovecraftian.
There is definitely a Lovecraftian influence. The Kane stories contain more than a hint of horror -- as did Howard's Conan. Of course Howard was a friend of Lovecraft.

[Ausmerican]

Thanks, Cainkane1. Now your opinion I value. :)

Ah but would that value have remained a constant if he had said your site sucked?
Will have to check out the site later when I have time. My teenaged reading list was pretty much defined by Wagner, Howard, Burroughs, & Conan Doyle.

[popscythe]

This thread degraded rather quickly, don't you think?