Army Strong

[JihadJane]

SpvxuWQjTKA

[Darth Rotor]

Still whinging, JJane? Nice to see Cindy still pissing on the grave of her son, and you along with her.

Some crap never changes.

[KingMerv00]

I don't suppose there is a middle ground between Jihad Jane and "pissing on Cindy's dead son" is there?

[Darth Rotor]

I don't suppose there is a middle ground between Jihad Jane and "pissing on Cindy's dead son" is there?
No.

[tyr_13]

I don't watch youtube videos when they are presented without description or accompanying argument.

[KingMerv00]

No.

Ok, I'll just not exist then.

[leonAzul]

I don't watch youtube videos when they are presented without description or accompanying argument.

Ditto

[JoeyDonuts]

Ok, I'll just not exist then.

You are the excluded middle.

Therefore, you do not exist in the minds of extremists.

[JihadJane]

Thanks to everyone for interesting comments.

I don't watch youtube videos when they are presented without description or accompanying argument.

I think the video is argument enough in itself.

Here is the description that accompanied the OP video as posted by Information Clearing House along with Donovan's song 'Universal Soldier', below:

"This video is a mix of the Army Strong video produced by the army to entice young women and men to join the military. The other video is produced by Displaced Films which is a series of films produced for the Iraq Veterans Against the War http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier The series of films can also be seen here http://www.vimeo.com/5448532"



Please share this with everyone you know and especially young men and women."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23404.htm


Donovan's 'Universal Soldier':

N4Fe797IL04

[MysteryMammal]

What's your point?

Granted, I only watched about three minutes of the video. What I got from it was, and this may come as a big shocker to some people, in war people killl other people.

I'm trying to figure out what your point is, though. Army bad? Army lies? War is hell? War stories are mostly boring? If you join the military you may be called upon to kill? Do you have a point? Am I wasting my time again?

[funk de fino]

Pathetic, cowardly and spamming OP.

[JihadJane]

What's your point?

Granted, I only watched about three minutes of the video. What I got from it was, and this may come as a big shocker to some people, in war people killl other people.

I'm trying to figure out what your point is, though. Army bad? Army lies? War is hell? War stories are mostly boring? If you join the military you may be called upon to kill? Do you have a point? Am I wasting my time again?

Keep figuring.

Maybe watch all of it. (How scarce is your time?)

Open your heart and breathe?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
link from above without quote mark:

http://www.vimeo.com/5448532

[Alt+F4]

I don't watch youtube videos when they are presented without description or accompanying argument.

Neither do I. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not a YouTube dumping ground.

[leonAzul]

I think the video is argument enough in itself.


No.

[paximperium]

Neither do I. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not a YouTube dumping ground.
When you don't have anything intelligent to say, take a dump and hope others will comment on it.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Neither do I. This is supposed to be a discussion forum, not a YouTube dumping ground.

Its even harder to discuss for those of us who have bandwidth restrictions and security programs so cannot even see whats being used for the example.

[Fishstick]

People die in war and it sucks, news at 11.

[MarkCorrigan]

I thought (hoped) that this would be a discussion of the "Army Strong" recruitment videos (because dear god, do I hate those) but it turns out it's just a drive by trolling.

Guess we should put warning signs up.

[paximperium]

I thought (hoped) that this would be a discussion of the "Army Strong" recruitment videos (because dear god, do I hate those) but it turns out it's just a drive by trolling.

Guess we should put warning signs up.
Why don't we do so?
I personally think the whole "Army Strong" videos are a tad silly. It seems that they are trying to sell the whole army "lifestyle" to the parents more than the young recruits themselves.

[LTC8K6]

Still whinging, JJane? Nice to see Cindy still pissing on the grave of her son, and you along with her.

Some crap never changes.

Sure it does. Cindy isn't all over the media now that she's protesting Barry. :D

http://www.moonbattery.com/cindy-sheehan-media-whore.jpg

[JimBenArm]

What's the problem? You all don't like Armstrongs now? What did we ever do to you to deserve this? We gave you Neil, Louis, and me, and this is the thanks we get?

Oh, yeah, I forgot EJ. Guess we do deserve this. I'm so, so sorry...

[JihadJane]

I'm right here, neither under the bridge nor driving over it! Isn't the point of the video very obvious? It seems so to me. I found the it very moving.

The aggressive tone of most of responses surprisise me, even if they are mostly from the usual suspects. Perhaps I underestimate the fatalism and strength of militarist ideology in the US.

There was nothing inevitable about the war against Iraq. The same applies to most wars. I hope this video spreads far and wide and saves some lives.

[Careyp74]

what are the rules in cases like this when there is no op, is it possible to stray away from any topic? Are there chances of getting a yellow card for not sticking to the point of the thread? I would like to take this opportunity to talk about something I have been curious about, and falls into the category of social issues and current events.

Has anyone here ever cruised on the Costa cruise lines before? Is it the same line that they use for all of the amaz!ng cruises? How do they compare to other cruise lines going out of Ft. Lauderdale?

[funk de fino]

I'm right here, neither under the bridge nor driving over it! Isn't the point of the video very obvious? It seems so to me. I found the it very moving.

The aggressive tone of most of responses surprisise me, even if they are mostly from the usual suspects. Perhaps I underestimate the fatalism and strength of militarist ideology in the US.

There was nothing inevitable about the war against Iraq. The same applies to most wars. I hope this video spreads far and wide and saves some lives.


Post a video, comment on it and start a debate. Stop spamming.

[MysteryMammal]

Keep figuring.

Maybe watch all of it. (How scarce is your time?)

Open your heart and breathe?


Scarce enough not to waste on a person who can't even state their point.

[Toke]

People die in war and it sucks, news at 11.
Yes, were there anything else in the OP?

[Careyp74]

guys, come on, there is a serious topic here open for debate and no one is treating it with the thought it deserves.

Have you ever been on a Costa cruise, if so how does it rate to Carnival and others?

[Sabrina]

Watched most of the video.

Still don't see what JJ's point is. Care to elaborate?

[linusrichard]

I think the video is argument enough in itself.


Maybe, but I think the point is, it's not your argument. Your thread, your argument, please.

[NYCEMT86]

I hate fishing for an argument...in fact I hate fishing period...except for the drinking beer part...so that is what I am going to do. Call me when you come up with an actual argument and stop spamming the forums.

[JihadJane]

JREF is a discussion forum, not an argument forum!

I have posted the video for discussion. It's got nothing with "spamming", "trolling", "driving by" etc.

[paximperium]

JREF is a discussion forum, not an argument forum!

I have posted the video for discussion. It's got nothing with "spamming", "trolling", "driving by" etc.
So do some "discussing" instead of taking a dump and expecting something to happen. That's just lazy or cowardly.
So what would you like to discuss because no one has any idea what your point is?

[JihadJane]

So what would you like to discuss?


People's responses to the video.

[NYCEMT86]

JREF is a discussion forum, not an argument forum!

I have posted the video for discussion. It's got nothing with "spamming", "trolling", "driving by" etc.

Well your post has a lack of "discussion" from your side...

[JihadJane]

Well your post has a lack of "discussion" from your side...

Do you have a response to the video?

[paximperium]

Do you have a response to the video?
Do you?

[NYCEMT86]

Do you have a response to the video?

PTSD is a bitch...we should be funding more research to help treat vets.

War is hell, but guess what, there is nothing the people can do to stop it....even by electing a new President to office. Even when these wars end, there will more to fight in the future.

[JihadJane]

Do you?


Yes.

I am interested to see other people's responses first, then I will share more about my response and my response to other people's responses. It's hardly unusual for people to post material on JREF for people to respond to. I find it somewhat bizarre that posters are having such apparent difficulty responding to or even, apparently, understanding the content of the video!

[paximperium]

Yes.

I am interested to see other people's responses first, then I will share more about my response and my response to other people's responses. It's hardly unusual for people to post material on JREF for people to respond to. I find it somewhat bizarre that posters are having such apparent difficulty responding to or even, apparently, understanding the content of the video!
War sucks. Bad things happen in wars. We should try to avoid wars and help vets recover from war.

Your turn.

[leonAzul]

what are the rules in cases like this when there is no op, is it possible to stray away from any topic?

It could go either way. If there is no stated topic, then it is impossible to be on topic, so IMHO the OP itself is a breach of Rule 11! OTOH, it is impossible to be off topic because there is no explicitly stated topic. Let's see how long it takes for this mess to end up in the Cpmmunity Forum or AAH.

[JihadJane]

The video is the topic. Is that really so hard to understand?

[NYCEMT86]

well maybe you have posted this in the OP instead of making us guess what the specific discussion was, we arent mind readers, if we were, all of us would be 1 million dollars richer.

[JihadJane]

well maybe you have posted this in the OP instead of making us guess what the specific discussion was, we arent mind readers, if we were, all of us would be 1 million dollars richer.

Actually, many posters have demonstrated to me that they do believe they have minding reading "powas", funk de fino, for example! ;)

However, I hear what you are saying. What I think I will do is repost the video with my response to it, along with my response to this thread. I'm very busy for the next few days so it may not be until after the weekend.

Deep peace of the running waves to you.
Deep peace of the flowing air to you.
Deep peace of the quiet earth to you.
Deep peace of the shining stars to you.
Deep peace of the infinite peace to you.

[funk de fino]

The video is the topic. Is that really so hard to understand?

If you do not comment on it you are spamming

[funk de fino]

Actually, many posters have demonstrated to me that they do believe they have minding reading "powas", funk de fino, for example! ;)

"Almost immediately named". Remember that epic fail. You posted a video as an OP with no comment. It is spamming, get over it. I don't need to do a vulcan mind meld on you to see that.

[Alareth]

Has this thread gotten a point yet?

[JihadJane]

Has this thread gotten a point yet?

Androcentric bias?

[paximperium]

Has this thread gotten a point yet?
Nope.

[JihadJane]

Nope.

Yet they keep coming back!

[Darth Rotor]

Ok, I'll just not exist then.

Methinks you don't grasp JJane.

[fuelair]

Thanks to everyone for interesting comments.



I think the video is argument enough in itself.

]

Sorry, but no edited in any way video is argument in itself for anything - too easy to manipulate images, make implications with music choices and script and generally affect emotion rather than logic.

[JihadJane]

Sorry, but no edited in any way video is argument in itself for anything - too easy to manipulate images, make implications with music choices and script and generally affect emotion rather than logic.

In common with all propaganda, war propaganda is about emotion, not logic.

[JihadJane]

Methinks you don't grasp JJane.

Methinks you don't either!

[firecoins]

war propoganda exists for both both pro and con. So what?

I am glad Saddam is gone. I want Iraq to a be a free an independant country without a US troop presence.

I do not like war. I do not like violence. I can't stand violence. :mad:

I do not care about the US army's recruitment campaign. Its obvious soldiers will be asked to kill and are a high risk for PTSD. Comes with the territory.

[paximperium]

Yet they keep coming back!
Jane, I'm here for the weather talk. That actually has a point.

[fuelair]

Who knows which way the weather blows?
The weatherman knows..........

[JihadJane]

Lotta rain.

[JihadJane]

war propoganda exists for both both pro and con. So what?

I am glad Saddam is gone. I want Iraq to a be a free an independant country without a US troop presence.

I do not like war. I do not like violence. I can't stand violence. :mad:

I do not care about the US army's recruitment campaign. Its obvious soldiers will be asked to kill and are a high risk for PTSD. Comes with the territory.

I'd prefer to save my comments for the new planned thread mentioned above but , tho the vid is, of course, anti-violence, its "point" seems to me to anti lies. Is it logical to think without compassion?

[leonAzul]

Who knows which way the weather blows?
The weatherman knows..........

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows…

[JihadJane]

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows…

Just a wet finger.

[boloboffin]

Sure it does. Cindy isn't all over the media now that she's protesting Barry. :D

http://www.moonbattery.com/cindy-sheehan-media-whore.jpg

Yeah, I guess she's shouldn't have burned all those bridges with FOX. She'd have a weekly spot with Glenn Beck, otherwise. Media whores need to think about these things.

[Darth Rotor]

Methinks you don't either!

You'd be wrong.

[JihadJane]

You'd be wrong.

Methinks not! The posts that you have addressed to me certainly indicate that you haven't, rather they suggest a reliance on stereotypes, preconceptions and various other perceptual and cognitve filters.

Perhaps you could visit this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=152947) to express explicitly what you believe you have grasped. The thread was originally posted in the "Social Issues and Current Events" section as I am interested to know exactly what you think you have grasped about me. Maybe you are right. I don't know.

I am also still planning to repost the OP video with my comments on it and with comments on the comments on this thread.

[Quad4_72]

What a completely ridiculous thread. You post a 16 minute long video without any description, your opinion, or any point whatsoever and expect people to start talking about it. Don't spam this forum. You have enough trash posts as it is.

[JihadJane]

What a completely ridiculous thread. You post a 16 minute long video without any description, your opinion, or any point whatsoever and expect people to start talking about it. Don't spam this forum. You have enough trash posts as it is.

The OP has a title.

I didn't expect anything.

I have posted a description.

I have expressed some opinions.

Your mind-reading powas are fading.

[funk de fino]

The OP has a title.

I didn't expect anything.

I have posted a description.

I have expressed some opinions.

Your mind-reading powas are fading.

You have spammed in your OP.

[Lupie]

Well,

I'll take the bait, and comment on this video. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army, I was a basic armor crewman on an M1-A1 Abrams. I don't believe what many of the people in this video are saying. Nobody in my little corner of the Army ever fired "indiscriminately" at civillians. In fact, many of my friends put themselves at great risk to avoid civilian casualties. Others have sustained life threatening injuries trying to protect innocent Iraqi citizens.

As far as the racial slurs go, that is something that is NOT tolerated at all. Every company in the Army is made up of people from all walks of life, races, and religions. You start using racist terms like "sand ******" when referring to to Iraqi citizens, or even enemy combatants, I can guarantee you that the African Amercan soldier in that tank next to you, in the trench next to you, is not going to tolerate that sort of language. Neither is the fellow in your platoon who happens to be a Musilm or is from Middle Eastern roots. I have handed out personally, and seen other NCO's and Officers hand out swift, and harsh punishment for using just one racial slur. Do we cuss alot, hell yes. Do we allow racial slurs in any situation-hell no.

Do civilians die in war? Unfortunately they do, but not from malice or reckless disregard of human life by 99% of the people who serve in our armed forces. Are there some bad apples in the service? There sure are, and they are dealt with swiftly, and the punishments are severe for those who violate the UCMJ.

War, is sometimes a necessary thing. It's also a terrible thing. People on both sides, as well as those caught in the middle, die. I see service members with terrible injuries at the local VA Hospital. Physical injuries, as well as the insidious, invisible wounds that take far longer to heal. PTSD can be like living in a nightmare. These men and women deserve our respect and gratitude. I find this video to be offensive, and insulting to a group of people who are some of the finest I've ever known.

L.

[gambling_cruiser]

guys, come on, there is a serious topic here open for debate and no one is treating it with the thought it deserves.

Have you ever been on a Costa cruise, if so how does it rate to Carnival and others?
I have sailed on the Costa Fortuna.
Costa is a brand of Carnival, they use the same ship design, only decor is different.
IMO the major difference is the language. At least on european sailings all anouncements (and there are a lot of them) are made in five languages
therefore the rescue drill lasts five time as long as usual.
Not all crew members understand or speak english.
Meals tend to be italian/international. Service can be strange. Our cabin steward didn't greet or return greeting, just staring at us. Maybe he was used to tend sheep or goats.
In some places of the ship a strange smell was present, something like a cleaning or desinfect potion spilled on the carpet.
Hope this did help you.
If you need serious advice about cruising pm me.

[JihadJane]

Well,

I'll take the bait, and comment on this video. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army, I was a basic armor crewman on an M1-A1 Abrams. I don't believe what many of the people in this video are saying. Nobody in my little corner of the Army ever fired "indiscriminately" at civillians. In fact, many of my friends put themselves at great risk to avoid civilian casualties. Others have sustained life threatening injuries trying to protect innocent Iraqi citizens.

As far as the racial slurs go, that is something that is NOT tolerated at all. Every company in the Army is made up of people from all walks of life, races, and religions. You start using racist terms like "sand ******" when referring to to Iraqi citizens, or even enemy combatants, I can guarantee you that the African Amercan soldier in that tank next to you, in the trench next to you, is not going to tolerate that sort of language. Neither is the fellow in your platoon who happens to be a Musilm or is from Middle Eastern roots. I have handed out personally, and seen other NCO's and Officers hand out swift, and harsh punishment for using just one racial slur. Do we cuss alot, hell yes. Do we allow racial slurs in any situation-hell no.

Do civilians die in war? Unfortunately they do, but not from malice or reckless disregard of human life by 99% of the people who serve in our armed forces. Are there some bad apples in the service? There sure are, and they are dealt with swiftly, and the punishments are severe for those who violate the UCMJ.

War, is sometimes a necessary thing. It's also a terrible thing. People on both sides, as well as those caught in the middle, die. I see service members with terrible injuries at the local VA Hospital. Physical injuries, as well as the insidious, invisible wounds that take far longer to heal. PTSD can be like living in a nightmare. These men and women deserve our respect and gratitude. I find this video to be offensive, and insulting to a group of people who are some of the finest I've ever known.

L.


What do you find offensive about it?

What motive would veterans have to lie about their experiences, as you allege?

[Quad4_72]

Well,

I'll take the bait, and comment on this video. I am a veteran of the U.S. Army, I was a basic armor crewman on an M1-A1 Abrams. I don't believe what many of the people in this video are saying. Nobody in my little corner of the Army ever fired "indiscriminately" at civillians. In fact, many of my friends put themselves at great risk to avoid civilian casualties. Others have sustained life threatening injuries trying to protect innocent Iraqi citizens.

As far as the racial slurs go, that is something that is NOT tolerated at all. Every company in the Army is made up of people from all walks of life, races, and religions. You start using racist terms like "sand ******" when referring to to Iraqi citizens, or even enemy combatants, I can guarantee you that the African Amercan soldier in that tank next to you, in the trench next to you, is not going to tolerate that sort of language. Neither is the fellow in your platoon who happens to be a Musilm or is from Middle Eastern roots. I have handed out personally, and seen other NCO's and Officers hand out swift, and harsh punishment for using just one racial slur. Do we cuss alot, hell yes. Do we allow racial slurs in any situation-hell no.

Do civilians die in war? Unfortunately they do, but not from malice or reckless disregard of human life by 99% of the people who serve in our armed forces. Are there some bad apples in the service? There sure are, and they are dealt with swiftly, and the punishments are severe for those who violate the UCMJ.

War, is sometimes a necessary thing. It's also a terrible thing. People on both sides, as well as those caught in the middle, die. I see service members with terrible injuries at the local VA Hospital. Physical injuries, as well as the insidious, invisible wounds that take far longer to heal. PTSD can be like living in a nightmare. These men and women deserve our respect and gratitude. I find this video to be offensive, and insulting to a group of people who are some of the finest I've ever known.

L.

An armor guy. Good man ;) I am a 19A myself. And I agree with your post 100%

[Lupie]

What do you find offensive about it?

What motive would veterans have to lie about their experiences, as you allege?

Hello J.J,

These particular veterans have many reasons to lie about their experiences. Here's some info on one of them...

This is about PFC Clifton Hicks, who appears in the "Army Strong"/Sheehan youtube video-

http://chickenhawkexpress.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-one-ivaw-member-really-feels-about.html

PFC Hicks was a malcontent with disciplinary problems, and he has an axe to grind. If you dig into the other veterans backgrounds in this video, you will find similar facts about them as well. PFC Hicks cannot keep his stories straight, and some of them are just plain over the top crazy. He claims as a PFC basic armor crewman that he took part in "Kidnapping entire populations of men to be sent off to top secret prisons".

I started out as a PFC basic armor crewman, and I can tell you this is pure hogwash. E-3 Abrams drivers don't participate in (bogus) kidnappings and trips to secret prisons. Our military does not kidnap "entire populations" of anyone. Hicks is a liar with zero credibility, and his slandering of other good service members is extremely offensive to me, and to many others.

L.

P.S. Since his disciplinary problems are indeed verified facts that he admits to, and his status as a malcontent has been well documented, there is no "alleged" about it. It's a fact.

[Quad4_72]

Hello J.J,

These particular veterans have many reasons to lie about their experiences. Here's some info on one of them...

This is about PFC Clifton Hicks, who appears in the "Army Strong"/Sheehan youtube video-

http://chickenhawkexpress.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-one-ivaw-member-really-feels-about.html

PFC Hicks was a malcontent with disciplinary problems, and he has an axe to grind. If you dig into the other veterans backgrounds in this video, you will find similar facts about them as well. PFC Hicks cannot keep his stories straight, and some of them are just plain over the top crazy. He claims as a PFC basic armor crewman that he took part in "Kidnapping entire populations of men to be sent off to top secret prisons".

I started out as a PFC basic armor crewman, and I can tell you this is pure hogwash. E-3 Abrams drivers don't participate in (bogus) kidnappings and trips to secret prisons. Our military does not kidnap "entire populations" of anyone. Hicks is a liar with zero credibility, and his slandering of other good service members is extremely offensive to me, and to many others.

L.

P.S. Since his disciplinary problems are indeed verified facts that he admits to, and his status as a malcontent has been well documented, there is no "alleged" about it. It's a fact.

I can vouch for everything you are saying. You know what drivers of tanks do? Sit in their tank and drive.

[Lupie]

An armor guy. Good man ;) I am a 19A myself. And I agree with your post 100%

Always good to see a fellow treadhead. !9A, that's an Officer MOS for General Armor isn't it? Are you active duty now?
Driving an Abrams, and being a 19K overall was one of the most enjoyable jobs that I 've ever had.

That PFC Hicks is pathetic, as are his fellow Sheehan followers. They will say anything about anyone if they think it will further
their agenda. They're a sad bunch.

L

[Quad4_72]

Always good to see a fellow treadhead. !9A, that's an Officer MOS for General Armor isn't it? Are you active duty now?
Driving an Abrams, and being a 19K overall was one of the most enjoyable jobs that I 've ever had.

That PFC Hicks is pathetic, as are his fellow Sheehan followers. They will say anything about anyone if they think it will further
their agenda. They're a sad bunch.

L

Yes I am an armor officer right now on active duty (Cavalry actually but yes we are all classified as 19A). And yes those people will say anything just to further their agenda, no matter what the expense.

[Nosi]

What's your point?

Granted, I only watched about three minutes of the video. What I got from it was, and this may come as a big shocker to some people, in war people killl other people.

I'm trying to figure out what your point is, though. Army bad? Army lies? War is hell? War stories are mostly boring? If you join the military you may be called upon to kill? Do you have a point? Am I wasting my time again?

I may be mistaken, but the objection taken by some of the solders is they are being asked/told to break the 'rules' of war by killing civilians including children. They had spent their basic training learning these rules of war, and this caused a disconnect. It is like when a person learns to build a building safely, then is told to cut dangerous corners. It is not about fighting a war, but how one fights a war.

[JihadJane]

I may be mistaken, but the objection taken by some of the solders is they are being asked/told to break the 'rules' of war by killing civilians including children. They had spent their basic training learning these rules of war, and this caused a disconnect. It is like when a person learns to build a building safely, then is told to cut dangerous corners. It is not about fighting a war, but how one fights a war.

That's my impression as well.

It is interesting that the majority of the posters on this thread are so brutishly defensive against such a simple, non-threatening message.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


'Mission Accomplished (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13440.htm)'

"Shocking, honest, brave and an amazing eye-opener. Watch this movie if you really want to know what's happening in Iraq. Shows both sides of the story about the insurgency war that you won't see on TV. Critical of US policy, but sympathetic to the American soldiers on the ground. Historical movie."

Run Time - 89 Minutes

[rockinkt]

Donovan's 'Universal Soldier':

[/yt]

This is NOT Donovan's song. Buffy Sainte Marie wrote it and Donovan just sings it.

[JihadJane]

This is NOT Donovan's song. Buffy Sainte Marie wrote it and Donovan just sings it.


Thanks.

'Buffy Sainte-Marie - Universal Soldier'

VGWsGyNsw00

[LONGTABBER PE]

Hello J.J,

These particular veterans have many reasons to lie about their experiences. Here's some info on one of them...
This is about PFC Clifton Hicks, who appears in the "Army Strong"/Sheehan youtube video-

http://chickenhawkexpress.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-one-ivaw-member-really-feels-about.html

PFC Hicks was a malcontent with disciplinary problems, and he has an axe to grind. If you dig into the other veterans backgrounds in this video, you will find similar facts about them as well. PFC Hicks cannot keep his stories straight, and some of them are just plain over the top crazy. He claims as a PFC basic armor crewman that he took part in "Kidnapping entire populations of men to be sent off to top secret prisons".
I started out as a PFC basic armor crewman, and I can tell you this is pure hogwash. E-3 Abrams drivers don't participate in (bogus) kidnappings and trips to secret prisons. Our military does not kidnap "entire populations" of anyone. Hicks is a liar with zero credibility, and his slandering of other good service members is extremely offensive to me, and to many others.

L.

P.S. Since his disciplinary problems are indeed verified facts that he admits to, and his status as a malcontent has been well documented, there is no "alleged" about it. It's a fact.

I would like to further add to your 100% correct commentary as one who has been on "Haji Hunting" opns and had the virtue of also being a tanker ( first MOS off of AD was 19E in the Guard [ yeah I know I'm dating myself there but I did qualify for Master gunner LOL]) ( spend a whole AT getting MOS'Qd)

Tankers dont do anything but Armor operations. I have never seen an ARTEP or Tank Table involving a tank crew doing anything regarding dismounted operations. They dont have the training or skills for such.

Besides, where would a tanker put them? They tell me the M1 has more room than the 60-A3 but they would have to transport them on the bussle rack.

Now speaking for the "secret squirrel" and SQWT side- what about these "kidnappings" and "secret prisons"?

These "secret prisons" are not prisons but HESCO walled camps where detainees or people of interest are held ( and the majority released) when they are rounded up.

Kidnapping is a misnomer because technically "kidnapping" is taking by force without consent so in war, EVERYONE captured would be "technically" kidnapped.

The key is the how and why they are taken in the first place. The reasons vary.

Some are a result of intelligence, some are turned in by the village elders, some come from other prisoner intelligence and direct contact.

There is some truth in taking all males in a village- thats a fact but theres a reason for it.

The Taliban/ Al Queida are NOT a uniformed army and as such have no respect or adherence to the Geveva or Hague conventions or any of the recognized Laws of Warfare. They also have civilian sympathizers who hide and cover for them. They also commit terrorist acts against villagers who are forced to hide/feed them under penalty of death. ( CNN doesnt tell you about the innocent villagers about those who refuse to help them or get involved that are kidnapped in the night and a letter comes to the wife telling her where to go to get the headless corpse)

They also will dress and mingle with the locals to avoid capture. You round them up in mass for several reasons.

1) you dont know who is or is not Taliban

2) Civilians who are not Taliban proper will take up arms for their cause ( he becomes a combatant the moment he does)

3) you do it for the SAFETY of the villagers.

Heres what happens ( this is real world, not a made up example)

You have Taliban Joe in a village ( they know who they are) and taliban Joe "knows" who knows him and his presence,activities. ( Call them villager Jimmy and Jane)

Taliban Joe gets captured or killed. Taliban Joe's friends also know who knew. They will come in and kill Jane and Jimmy, maybe their whole family and if they are in a pissy mood- the neighbors too for good measure just to make sure they got anyone who MIGHT have outed their fellow. They dont spend 1 second of their time concerning themselves with fact finding to see if anyone actually did anything ( or not)- its just easier for them to go on a killing rampage to "send the message" to the masses. ( its a VERY effective message and the masses get it LOUD and CLEAR)

The mass round ups are often used for the above reasons.

[LONGTABBER PE]

I may be mistaken, but the objection taken by some of the solders is they are being asked/told to break the 'rules' of war by killing civilians including children. They had spent their basic training learning these rules of war, and this caused a disconnect. It is like when a person learns to build a building safely, then is told to cut dangerous corners. It is not about fighting a war, but how one fights a war.

Thats more media hype than reality- no different than in Vietnam.

No one is "told or asked" to break the Laws of War. That would be an UNLAWFUL order and disobeyed. ( not to mention prosecuted under the UCMJ if it were ever proven)

Heres what does happen tho. ( it causes the stress mentioned)

The Taliban are ruthless and have no moral recognized values that "we" consider normal. ( a good distinction would be between the uniformed professional German soldier compared to the hard core Nazi SS)

Their religion and culture reinforce a completely different set of values.

If they are wounded, they will save their dying breath to shoot a soldier. ( thus resulting in "double tapping"[ practice of killing a wounded soldier or putting a "security shot" into one to "make sure"] where against a different enemy- that wouldnt happen)

They also boobytrap bodies/wounded where they blow up during recovery. ( ours and theirs)

They also recruit ( some volunteer- some by force such as threatening to kill their family[ its not an empty threat either]) both women and children to fight as well as pack IED's. We had many casualties in Iraq at FOB Anaconda when a kid went into a DFAC with an IED in a backpack.

Its not about surrendering values or cutting corners- its about fighting what amounts to a "ghost" enemy that can be a man,woman or child in any given scenario.

If the Taliban would "fight" in a civilized manner ( a true contradiction in terms) ( traditional armies against traditional armies on a battlefield) then this war would have been over in about 30 days. Thats not how they do it and it forces us to fight them on their terms.

[paximperium]

That's my impression as well. Except for the lack of evidence, yeah sure.

It is interesting that the majority of the posters on this thread are so brutishly defensive against such a simple, non-threatening message. What message? You have one? I though you were just making small talk?

[funk de fino]

That's my impression as well.

It is interesting that the majority of the posters on this thread are so brutishly defensive against such a simple, non-threatening message.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


'Mission Accomplished (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13440.htm)'

"Shocking, honest, brave and an amazing eye-opener. Watch this movie if you really want to know what's happening in Iraq. Shows both sides of the story about the insurgency war that you won't see on TV. Critical of US policy, but sympathetic to the American soldiers on the ground. Historical movie."

Run Time - 89 Minutes



Its also interesting you can still do nowt but spam. Fly away Peter, fly away Paul

[Alareth]

I can vouch for everything you are saying. You know what drivers of tanks do? Sit in their tank and drive.

"Why are there six pedals when there are only four directions?" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue

[Quad4_72]

"Why are there six pedals when there are only four directions?" ~ Caboose, Red vs. Blue

I dont get it.

[paximperium]

I dont get it.
I think it is a super obscure reference to an online videogame character from the Halo games.

[Quad4_72]

I think it is a super obscure reference to an online videogame character from the Halo games.

Lol. And what does the reference have to do with what I am talking about? Any ideas?

[Lupie]

That's my impression as well.

It is interesting that the majority of the posters on this thread are so brutishly defensive against such a simple, non-threatening message.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


'Mission Accomplished (http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article13440.htm)'

"Shocking, honest, brave and an amazing eye-opener. Watch this movie if you really want to know what's happening in Iraq. Shows both sides of the story about the insurgency war that you won't see on TV. Critical of US policy, but sympathetic to the American soldiers on the ground. Historical movie."

Run Time - 89 Minutes




J.J.,

Did you not read my post or check out the links I provided? The "message" in this video is completely BOGUS because these former service members are PROVEN LIARS. Their status as liars and malcontents isn't a theory, it's a well documented fact.

I told you from my own personal knowledge and experience that Hicks is telling an absolute lie. He was an armor crewman, I was also an armor crewman and I'm telling you that tankers do not engage in silly made up "mass kidnappings". And now, two other armor crewmen, including an active duty officer, have responded to this thread and have verified my statement. Also, Hicks is not the only liar of the bunch, he's just the tip of the iceberg. These axe-grinding losers have zero credibility.

This so-called "message" is completely invalid because it is all based on lies.

L.

[paximperium]

Lol. And what does the reference have to do with what I am talking about? Any ideas?
Here is the video. http://redvsblue.com/archive/episode.php?id=95

It's pseudo-amusing. I think they got very popular with the xbox crowd a few years back.

[Skeptical Greg]

Thanks to everyone for interesting comments.

I think the video is argument enough in itself.



An argument for what ?

[JihadJane]

J.J.,

Did you not read my post or check out the links I provided? The "message" in this video is completely BOGUS because these former service members are PROVEN LIARS. Their status as liars and malcontents isn't a theory, it's a well documented fact.

I told you from my own personal knowledge and experience that Hicks is telling an absolute lie. He was an armor crewman, I was also an armor crewman and I'm telling you that tankers do not engage in silly made up "mass kidnappings". And now, two other armor crewmen, including an active duty officer, have responded to this thread and have verified my statement. Also, Hicks is not the only liar of the bunch, he's just the tip of the iceberg. These axe-grinding losers have zero credibility.

This so-called "message" is completely invalid because it is all based on lies.

L.

I wasn't very impressed by your "debunking", which I may come back to later. It seemed to be mostly army-bubble ad hominem. Are you saying that the original (army) "Army Strong" message is not a lie?

[LONGTABBER PE]

I wasn't very impressed by your "debunking", which I may come back to later. It seemed to be mostly army-bubble ad hominem. Are you saying that the original (army) "Army Strong" message is not a lie?

Do you actually have a point?

[paximperium]

I wasn't very impressed by your "debunking", which I may come back to later. Kind of like how you were going to "come back later" to make some sort of point?

[paximperium]

Do you actually have a point?
If you don't have a point and have no balls to defend your point, just insinuate and run away.

[LONGTABBER PE]

If you don't have a point and have no balls to defend your point, just insinuate and run away.

I was just curious LOL

I love people whose sole source of information is the internet and the agenda driven voices of a few lying malcontents telling me what they think they know when I'm one of the ones here doing it.

[Skeptical Greg]

......Are you saying that the original (army) "Army Strong" message is not a lie?

Are you saying it is ?

[Lupie]

I wasn't very impressed by your "debunking", which I may come back to later. It seemed to be mostly army-bubble ad hominem. Are you saying that the original (army) "Army Strong" message is not a lie?

I'm not here to impress you, or anyone else. And I am not "debunking" anything. I am stating facts that are a matter of historical record. You know, I would think that you would want to make your statement, and further your cause and beliefs with material that is authentic, and has credibility. I'm sure there are plenty of videos out there that actually have honest veterans with legitimate gripes about the military, why don't you come up with a video like that?

Also, it is not an ad-hom attack to bring attention to someones poor military record. If you did even the smallest amount of reading and research, you would see that PFC Hicks READILY ADMITS to the criminal charges he recieved in the Army, and he admits to having a long series of disciplinary actions taken against him. He also states in plain english when he's not in front of any cameras or crowds, that he hates the Army and those with whom he served. He has an axe to grind and is telling outrageous lies to get back at the Army and those who he hates.

So, since he has admitted all of these things, does that mean that he is engaging in an ad-hom attack against himself?

And, the US Army phrase "Army Strong" is neither a "lie" nor is it a "truth". It's simply a catch phrase used in print and television commercials for crying out loud.

Why does everything with you have to be "truther" versus "debunker"? Why is it that you absolutely will not believe ANYTHING from anyone who you percieve as a debunker?

Why do you refuse to look at the military records of the people in this video? The info/records are readily available from many sources. I am quickly learning that trying to talk to you, and to others like you, is an exercise in futility. I can never be right because to you I am a debunker. And, you believe that because you are a truther that you could never, ever be wrong about anything. So, at this point, there is no point, so, on to my ignore list you go.

L.

[Nosi]

Hicks lying or telling the truth aside, we do know that there are depleted uranium weapons being used in Iraq. Such weapons will have a long term effect on solders, civilians, their spouses and their children. Often, this long term effect is illness then death, or birth with wicked deformity.

These weapons are very effective at getting jobs done in the short term.

[PixyMisa]

Hicks lying or telling the truth aside, we do know that there are depleted uranium weapons being used in Iraq. Such weapons will have a long term effect on solders, civilians, their spouses and their children.
If you get hit by a tank round, it doesn't matter much what it's made of.

If you don't get hit, depleted uranium isn't particularly dangerous. I wouldn't suggest that you grind it up and eat it - it's still a toxic heavy metal, though nowhere near as dangerous as cadmium or mercury. But if it's intact it's quite safe to handle.

[super nova]

Hi there! I'm new to this forum, so i'm not familiar with the patterns of discussion and debate etc.. but i am finding the topics i have scanned so far quite interesting!

With regards to the vidio and the responces made to it, i was a little shocked at how unecessarily rude some of the statements were??? (especially from quad4 72???)

The vidio is surely of interest in its own right? and if not, then why comment at all?


I have two friends who are 'peace activists'.. Ron Kovic and Ted Quinn
and the message they seem to want to get across is that basically war causes more harm than good.. and i suppose the more people that realise that, the more chance the world has for a change for the better.
This vidio being a tiny component in work towards that potential change.

Thanks for posting it JJ!

Best wishes, super nova

[JimBenArm]

Hi there! I'm new to this forum, so i'm not familiar with the patterns of discussion and debate etc.. but i am finding the topics i have scanned so far quite interesting!

With regards to the vidio and the responces made to it, i was a little shocked at how unecessarily rude some of the statements were??? (especially from quad4 72???)

The vidio is surely of interest in its own right? and if not, then why comment at all?


I have two friends who are 'peace activists'.. Ron Kovic and Ted Quinn
and the message they seem to want to get across is that basically war causes more harm than good.. and i suppose the more people that realise that, the more chance the world has for a change for the better.
This vidio being a tiny component in work towards that potential change.

Thanks for posting it JJ!

Best wishes, super nova
So lies and misrepresentations are fine as long as it's for the greater good, huh?
Myself, I prefer reality.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Hi there! I'm new to this forum, so i'm not familiar with the patterns of discussion and debate etc.. but i am finding the topics i have scanned so far quite interesting!

With regards to the vidio and the responces made to it, i was a little shocked at how unecessarily rude some of the statements were??? (especially from quad4 72???)

The vidio is surely of interest in its own right? and if not, then why comment at all?


I have two friends who are 'peace activists'.. Ron Kovic and Ted Quinn
and the message they seem to want to get across is that basically war causes more harm than good.. and i suppose the more people that realise that, the more chance the world has for a change for the better.
This vidio being a tiny component in work towards that potential change.

Thanks for posting it JJ!

Best wishes, super nova


War causes more harm than good? Theres news.

Of course it does- thats why its war but then that also depends on what you are measuring.

Its not "the people" who need to get the message- they already know. Its the groups and their leaders who START ( or threaten to) the wars that they need to get to.

Nobody hates war more than the soldiers who fight it- know why?

Guess who dies in it.

The problem is that there are some really bad people out there who wont listen to anything except the business end of a barrel

[Tailgater]

Hi there! I'm new to this forum, so i'm not familiar with the patterns of discussion and debate etc..

Painfully obvious.

[Quad4_72]

Hi there! I'm new to this forum, so i'm not familiar with the patterns of discussion and debate etc.. but i am finding the topics i have scanned so far quite interesting!

With regards to the vidio and the responces made to it, i was a little shocked at how unecessarily rude some of the statements were??? (especially from quad4 72???)

The vidio is surely of interest in its own right? and if not, then why comment at all?


I have two friends who are 'peace activists'.. Ron Kovic and Ted Quinn
and the message they seem to want to get across is that basically war causes more harm than good.. and i suppose the more people that realise that, the more chance the world has for a change for the better.
This vidio being a tiny component in work towards that potential change.

Thanks for posting it JJ!

Best wishes, super nova

You would have to know JihadJanes post history to know why I am immediately hostile towards her. Not to mention it is in extremely bad taste to spam the forums with links to things without any explanation as to what they are or any opinion provided.

As to your post, that is simply a fantasy world. War has been around since the beginning of history, and that will never change. You say war causes more harm than good. I beg to differ. If people would not have defied Germany in World War II and tried to be peaceful with them, the Nazis would have dominated Europe and completely wiped out the jews. The French learned this the hard way when they attempted to be peaceful. Being a peace activist is extremely easy in America. I would love to see peace activists go to Somalia, Afghanistan, or Iraq and see how well their message is accepted there.

[LONGTABBER PE]

As to your post, that is simply a fantasy world. War has been around since the beginning of history, and that will never change. You say war causes more harm than good. I beg to differ. If people would not have defied Germany in World War II and tried to be peaceful with them, the Nazis would have dominated Europe and completely wiped out the jews. The French learned this the hard way when they attempted to be peaceful. Being a peace activist is extremely easy in America. I would love to see peace activists go to Somalia, Afghanistan, or Iraq and see how well their message is accepted there.

That so deserves to be repeated

[super nova]

Thanks for your feedback.

I believe the world ie 'reality' is what WE make it!

Whereas each persons perception of reality is a subjective thing.

There is no argument, only observation, interpretation, and response..

I'm open and interested in hearing and discussing all points of view!

I'm not however interested in childish bickering! -Yes, i suppose it would be "painfully obvious" that i'm new to this sight! LOL!

[Quad4_72]

That so deserves to be repeated

Indeed. Being a peace activist doesn't really do too much to deter terrorists. Brute force is the only thing understood by those people.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Thanks for your feedback.

I believe the world ie 'reality' is what WE make it!

Whereas each persons perception of reality is a subjective thing.

There is no argument, only observation, interpretation, and response..

I'm open and interested in hearing and discussing all points of view!

I'm not however interested in childish bickering! -Yes, i suppose it would be "painfully obvious" that i'm new to this sight! LOL!

I believe the world ie 'reality' is what WE make it!

Sure, now all you need to do is convince that portion of the "we" who are creating the problems to stop- then everythings good. I'm all ready to beat my sword into a plow.

Since I'm here- start with the Taliban so I can leave.

Get them some cases of coke, build a fire and start singing "I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony..........."

I wish you great success- just remember some guy named Nick Berg- he wanted to help too

Whereas each persons perception of reality is a subjective thing.

My reality is that bullets and IED's hurt- thats not a perception

Innocent people murdered isnt a perception either- thats reality too

[Quad4_72]

Thanks for your feedback.

I believe the world ie 'reality' is what WE make it!

Whereas each persons perception of reality is a subjective thing.

There is no argument, only observation, interpretation, and response..

I'm open and interested in hearing and discussing all points of view!

I'm not however interested in childish bickering! -Yes, i suppose it would be "painfully obvious" that i'm new to this sight! LOL!

Well we in America can be peaceful all we want. There are people out there who only want money, power, and to push their agenda (such as the terrorists/insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq). Being peaceful will not stop another terrorists attack even if we think "The world is what we make it." It just doesn't work that way. My proof is the history of human beings on the planet Earth.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Well we in America can be peaceful all we want. There are people out there who only want money, power, and to push their agenda (such as the terrorists/insurgents in Afghanistan and Iraq). Being peaceful will not stop another terrorists attack even if we think "The world is what we make it." It just doesn't work that way. My proof is the history of human beings on the planet Earth.

No, No, No, No

These are just poor misunderstood people who are products of abuse and their environment. Also, somewhere in the past, its America's sole fault and responsibility they do what they do. They arent responsible for their actions and they didnt mean anything by it- we just arent sensitive enough to their needs.

Let us all join our hands and sing

Weeeeeeeeee are the wooooorld- weeeeeeeeeeee are the children

[JihadJane]

Indeed. Being a peace activist doesn't really do too much to deter terrorists. Brute force is the only thing understood by those people.

Brute forces creates "terrorists".

[PixyMisa]

Brute forces creates "terrorists".
If by "creates" you mean "kills", then yes.

[Aepervius]

If by "creates" you mean "kills", then yes.

No. "Create" is right. For example Sean (Catholic) kills Sam (protestant). Then Sam's brother Kill Sean, and Sean's brother assassinate Sam's brother. And then it degenerate that point on, with both side killing each other, or one side massacring the other, and the other side reverting to more violence.

So when you use brute force to solve a problem, you either need to FULLY solve it (full genocide) or you actually do not, you just shift the violence toward up and down period where the next wave of violence is brewing, because the underlying problem are still here.

Thinking you can solve violence by bombing "the others" into stone age, but leaving survivor left, is quite a good demonstration that one never learn from history.

Note that I am no advocating genocide, only telling you why brute force do not ultimately solve anything, it only lengthen the time the problems stays until somebody come with a non violent solution, or kill the other party fully.

[Quad4_72]

No. "Create" is right. For example Sean (Catholic) kills Sam (protestant). Then Sam's brother Kill Sean, and Sean's brother assassinate Sam's brother. And then it degenerate that point on, with both side killing each other, or one side massacring the other, and the other side reverting to more violence.

So when you use brute force to solve a problem, you either need to FULLY solve it (full genocide) or you actually do not, you just shift the violence toward up and down period where the next wave of violence is brewing, because the underlying problem are still here.

Thinking you can solve violence by bombing "the others" into stone age, but leaving survivor left, is quite a good demonstration that one never learn from history.

Note that I am no advocating genocide, only telling you why brute force do not ultimately solve anything, it only lengthen the time the problems stays until somebody come with a non violent solution, or kill the other party fully.

It does not have to be full genocide. Talking about the Taliban, if we can take out their leadership and destroy a sizable amount of their force that will definitely solve the problem. This was almost accomplished at one point, but the US did not have enough of our forces in country to finish the job.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Brute forces creates "terrorists".

Really?

What "brute force" ( and administered by who) "created" the Sandinistas, Taliban, Al Quieda and such?

[JihadJane]

I'm not here to impress you, or anyone else. And I am not "debunking" anything. I am stating facts that are a matter of historical record. You know, I would think that you would want to make your statement, and further your cause and beliefs with material that is authentic, and has credibility. I'm sure there are plenty of videos out there that actually have honest veterans with legitimate gripes about the military, why don't you come up with a video like that?

The OP video is specifically aimed at dissuading young people from joining the army by challenging the powerful myths that are used to recruit them. I am interested to see how these myths are sustained and how, for example, a woman seeking to prevent other people's children from being duped into fighting useless, destructive wars is perceived as "pissing on her son's grave".

Also, it is not an ad-hom attack to bring attention to someones poor military record. If you did even the smallest amount of reading and research, you would see that PFC Hicks READILY ADMITS to the criminal charges he recieved in the Army, and he admits to having a long series of disciplinary actions taken against him. He also states in plain english when he's not in front of any cameras or crowds, that he hates the Army and those with whom he served. He has an axe to grind and is telling outrageous lies to get back at the Army and those who he hates.

So, since he has admitted all of these things, does that mean that he is engaging in an ad-hom attack against himself?

What is relevance of his record of miltary indiscipline to his testimony? What's wrong with hating the Army?

He has an axe to grind and is telling outrageous lies to get back at the Army and those who he hates.

Is that a fact or did you just make it up?

And, the US Army phrase "Army Strong" is neither a "lie" nor is it a "truth". It's simply a catch phrase used in print and television commercials for crying out loud.

"Army Strong" is a recruiting slogan that is used by the United States Army. The "Army Strong" video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSbCnWe6e1o), juxtaposed in the OP video with some Winter Soldier (http://ivaw.org/wintersoldier) testimony, is part of a recruiting campaign for the army.

Do you think the Army Strong video comes remotely close to accurately portraying what successfully recruited young people will experience in their new job?

Why does everything with you have to be "truther" versus "debunker"? Why is it that you absolutely will not believe ANYTHING from anyone who you percieve as a debunker?

Please provide the concrete evidence on which you have based these rhetorical questions/assertions. There is no truth to them.

Why do you refuse to look at the military records of the people in this video? The info/records are readily available from many sources. I am quickly learning that trying to talk to you, and to others like you, is an exercise in futility.

I don't know whether Hicks is a fantasist. You certainly haven't provided any proof that he is. Even if he is, I doubt that all the Winter Soldier witnesses are lying. Centuries of historical reports and historical testimony support their sentiments.


I can never be right because to you I am a debunker.

Wrong.

And, you believe that because you are a truther that you could never, ever be wrong about anything.

Wrong.




Mind reading, though popular with many JREF "debunkers", is not a scientifically reliable method.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Really?

What "brute force" ( and administered by who) "created" the Sandinistas, Taliban, Al Quieda and such?

Before I answer your question, by what definition are/were the Taliban and the Sandinistas "terrorists"?


If you get hit by a tank round, it doesn't matter much what it's made of.

If you don't get hit, depleted uranium isn't particularly dangerous. I wouldn't suggest that you grind it up and eat it - it's still a toxic heavy metal, though nowhere near as dangerous as cadmium or mercury. But if it's intact it's quite safe to handle.

How much of the hundreds of tons of the “not particularly dangerous", toxic, mutagenic, carcinogenic depleted uranium dumped on Iraq is "intact"?

[funk de fino]

Thanks for your feedback.

I believe the world ie 'reality' is what WE make it!

Whereas each persons perception of reality is a subjective thing.

There is no argument, only observation, interpretation, and response..

I'm open and interested in hearing and discussing all points of view!

I'm not however interested in childish bickering! -Yes, i suppose it would be "painfully obvious" that i'm new to this sight! LOL!

You're not the "friend" that JihadJane had problemns registering previously are you?

[funk de fino]

Brute forces creates "terrorists".

As do many other things.

[JihadJane]

You would have to know JihadJanes post history to know why I am immediately hostile towards her.

What is my "post history"?

It does not have to be full genocide. Talking about the Taliban, if we can take out their leadership and destroy a sizable amount of their force that will definitely solve the problem. This was almost accomplished at one point, but the US did not have enough of our forces in country to finish the job.

So just partial genocide will do the trick, then?

Welcome to the Empires' grave yard.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Before I answer your question, by what definition are/were the Taliban and the Sandinistas "terrorists"?



Sure, the ONLY correct and accepted definition.

A terrorist is a person/group that is NOT part of a recognized government's military that engages in random acts of violence against NON DESCRIPT targets ( soft and hard types) in a random fashion for non military purposes that promote fear ( rather than legitimate tactical/military advantage) that initiate actions without responding to a direc threat or action normally promoting an agenda or belief that is not related to any recognized government officially sanctioned act.

Additionally, official entities can commit "terroristic" acts ( thus earning the title) when their actions are outside of recognized international laws and treaties especially in the case of unprovoked/unwarranted actions taken against civilian populaces with no legitimate military justification.

You need to remember sweetheart, I've been dealing with them in person and for real longer than there has been an internet or the general population even knew they existed.

[JihadJane]

Sure, the ONLY correct and accepted definition.

A terrorist is a person/group that is NOT part of a recognized government's military that engages in random acts of violence against NON DESCRIPT targets ( soft and hard types) in a random fashion for non military purposes that promote fear ( rather than legitimate tactical/military advantage) that initiate actions without responding to a direc threat or action normally promoting an agenda or belief that is not related to any recognized government officially sanctioned act.

Additionally, official entities can commit "terroristic" acts ( thus earning the title) when their actions are outside of recognized international laws and treaties especially in the case of unprovoked/unwarranted actions taken against civilian populaces with no legitimate military justification.

You need to remember sweetheart, I've been dealing with them in person and for real longer than there has been an internet or the general population even knew they existed.


I don't respond to patronizing idiocy.

[LONGTABBER PE]

I don't respond to patronizing idiocy.

No, what you dont respond to is factual accuracy from those who have forgotten more about the subject from REALITY and actually doing it because your agenda doesnt like it.

It leaves you with nothing left to say. When your points face the cold hard facts, they melt like pouring gasoline on styrofoam leaving nothing but hot air and emotionally charged rhetoric.

Sorry, but more often than not- the truth hurts. I didnt make it the truth and I'm not the one running from it and avoiding it.

It does publically demonstrate the inherent weaknesses in your position.

[funk de fino]

I don't respond to patronizing idiocy.

Thats because you usually start it.

[funk de fino]

What is my "post history"?.

At lot of false claims, spamming posts and threads.

How proud you must feel.

[Quad4_72]

What is my "post history"?



So just partial genocide will do the trick, then?

Welcome to the Empires' grave yard.

Your post history is ignorance, plain and simple. And as far as taking out the Taliban goes, if they were all in one spot I would definitely drop the largest bomb possible on them. Same goes for AQ and any other terrorist organization.

[Toke]

LONGTABBER PE,
The Sandinista won, and are therefor not terrorists but freedom fighters.
It is important to notice that as it is one of the only two ways the tell them apart.Agreeing with their goals or not is the other one.

[LONGTABBER PE]

LONGTABBER PE,
The Sandinista won, and are therefor not terrorists but freedom fighters.
It is important to notice that as it is one of the only two ways the tell them apart.Agreeing with their goals or not is the other one.

Thats not entirely correct ( very complex issue)

The dividing line ( once again) is in the targeting as to defining terrorists.

I can see ( and have dealt with) "freedom fighters" from various regimes.

I can make the same argument that the Revolutionary Soldiers of the colonies were "freedom fighters" as well. OR were they "terrorists" ( by the modern definition)

Its a vague line- I grant you. Its open to interpretation- thats true also.

I also acknowledge that history has painted both in different lights ( written by the winner)

The US ( and me personally) understands that "freedom fighters" from a politically different regime have a different end goal and "crimes against humanity" may happen.

That happens in every war. ( thus the standing militaries who commit terrorist acts)

Thats much different from groups who start out with no such aspirations

[LONGTABBER PE]

At lot of false claims, spamming posts and threads.

How proud you must feel.

Yeah, she wont. I deal with liberals all the time.

They argue from emotion, feeling and the ignorance of the moment.

Always remember- they are driven by emotions, have no clue, cannot think for themselves, dont concern themselves with facts or truth or digging to the root of an issue, they dont consider the complexities or consider the fallout of their actions.

They simply argue- because they dont know any better and cannot do any better

[Nosi]

If you get hit by a tank round, it doesn't matter much what it's made of.

If you don't get hit, depleted uranium isn't particularly dangerous. I wouldn't suggest that you grind it up and eat it - it's still a toxic heavy metal, though nowhere near as dangerous as cadmium or mercury. But if it's intact it's quite safe to handle.

Why did Iraq suffer a massive spike in birth defects upon the American invasion? Why are servicemen & women coming home and getting sick and or having deformed children of their own upon exposer to depleted uranium use battlefield?

[paximperium]

Why did Iraq suffer a massive spike in birth defects upon the American invasion? Why are servicemen & women coming home and getting sick and or having deformed children of their own upon exposer to depleted uranium use battlefield?
Evidence? A nice citation to an actual research paper would be really nice.

[Quad4_72]

Why did Iraq suffer a massive spike in birth defects upon the American invasion? Why are servicemen & women coming home and getting sick and or having deformed children of their own upon exposer to depleted uranium use battlefield?

This is a ridiculously absurd statement. Provide evidence immediately.

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

Why did Iraq suffer a massive spike in birth defects upon the American invasion? Why are servicemen & women coming home and getting sick and or having deformed children of their own upon exposer to depleted uranium use battlefield?

What would those (armour piercing) DU-rounds be used against in Iraq?

[Quad4_72]

What would those (armour piercing) DU-rounds be used against in Iraq?

They are not used in Iraq (Or very rarely). Mainly HEAT rounds are used and sometimes canister rounds.

[Toke]

I read of the Bradley's 25mm cannon using DU ammunition as standard.
Since there are no armored vehicles left to shoot at I assume it have been replaced with something cheaper and more explosive.

[Alt+F4]

Why did Iraq suffer a massive spike in birth defects upon the American invasion? Why are servicemen & women coming home and getting sick and or having deformed children of their own upon exposer to depleted uranium use battlefield?

How do you know this?

[Dr. Tobias Fünke]

They are not used in Iraq (Or very rarely). Mainly HEAT rounds are used and sometimes canister rounds.

Thought so.

[Quad4_72]

I read of the Bradley's 25mm cannon using DU ammunition as standard.
Since there are no armored vehicles left to shoot at I assume it have been replaced with something cheaper and more explosive.

I have been on Bradley's as well as Abrams and yes, we shoot mainly HE rounds nowadays, not sabots.

[JihadJane]

No, what you dont respond to is factual accuracy from those who have forgotten more about the subject from REALITY and actually doing it because your agenda doesnt like it.

It leaves you with nothing left to say. When your points face the cold hard facts, they melt like pouring gasoline on styrofoam leaving nothing but hot air and emotionally charged rhetoric.

Sorry, but more often than not- the truth hurts. I didnt make it the truth and I'm not the one running from it and avoiding it.

It does publically demonstrate the inherent weaknesses in your position.


An interesting attempt to appropriate, dominate, deny and alter another person's reality, sweetheart.


Your post history is ignorance, plain and simple.

Empty ad hominem

And as far as taking out the Taliban goes, if they were all in one spot I would definitely drop the largest bomb possible on them. Same goes for AQ and any other terrorist organization.


Interesting, abstract fantasy.

Am atom bomb?

[Quad4_72]

Interesting, abstract fantasy.

Am atom bomb?

No not an atom bomb. A few regular bombs would suffice.

[JihadJane]

No not an atom bomb. A few regular bombs would suffice.

What is the point of your abstract fantasy?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Getting back on topic, would anyone like to argue that this emotionally manipulative Army Strong recruiting video presents an accurate representation of what someone recruited into the army will experience in their job?

YSbCnWe6e1o

[LONGTABBER PE]

An interesting attempt to appropriate, dominate, deny and alter another person's reality, sweetheart.



Not at all- it was a demonstration of what happens when fact meets fantasy.

It wasnt an "attempt" it was a slam dunk

It didnt dominate- it displaced a fasle one

One doesnt "deny" a falsehood- one disproves it

There is no such thing as "another persons reality"- there may be another persons PERCEPTION of reality but theres only ONE reality and it might be a good thing for you to actually learn about it. You may find the truth interesting

[slingblade]

Yeah, she wont. I deal with liberals all the time.

We aren't claiming her, thanks.

Not all liberals are frothing morons, thanks ever so.

[paximperium]

Getting back on topic,What topic? You were too cowardly to ever bring one up.

would anyone like to argue that this emotionally manipulative Army Strong recruiting video presents an accurate representation of what someone recruited into the army will experience in their job?
So is this your point all along?

[LONGTABBER PE]

Getting back on topic, would anyone like to argue that this emotionally manipulative Army Strong recruiting video presents an accurate representation of what someone recruited into the army will experience in their job?

YSbCnWe6e1o

OK sure, I've got 30 years and a Sr NCO

"emotionally manipulative" isnt something unique or invented by the Armed Forces or exclusive too.

The military has long been heavy on pride, duty, honor, country and promoted it heavily. One of the core developmental functions in the military is to heavily instill those values. If you are just now seeing or realizing this- you are about 100 years behind the curve.

heres the key tho in your statement

accurate representation of what someone recruited into the army will experience in their job

What you "experience" is DIRECTLY related to your MOS ( your job) and the unit you are assigned to and its mission.

What you see on that specific video ( minus the PR shots and admin stuff) are things specific to Special Forces, Infantry ( airborne, leg and mech), Combat Engineers, Basic Training (obstacle course shots), Armor, Air Cav and Air Assault

So, if you VOLUNTEER, TRAIN and QUALIFY in those jobs ( and are assigned to those units)- yes you will do those things regularly

If you are a 71L ( clerk) in a civil affairs unit- you may never see the field. Same thing if you are medical, finance, JAG, Quartermaster and a host of support MOS's and units that are not designated "combat arms" and more specifically "line units"

So, to answer your question

IF you apply for the demonstrated MOS then YES you will do those demonstrated things( and do them FREQUENTLY)

If you are in other type units with support MOS's- then you will mostly have a normal 8-10 hour day and never even see the field except for qualification or other annual training.

[LONGTABBER PE]

I read of the Bradley's 25mm cannon using DU ammunition as standard. Since there are no armored vehicles left to shoot at I assume it have been replaced with something cheaper and more explosive.

true but understand what that means in the military sense

There are "standard" rounds and we have all types of "specialty rounds" as well. ( in SF, we have LAWs that fire grappling hooks and pitons rather than a HEAP rounds and such)

When you see the phrase designed for something as standard- it means the weapon will accept the "whatever" with no modifications such as different lined barrels, stronger recoil springs and such.

That doesnt mean thats what its supposed to shoot at all times.

Ammunition, like everything else is mission specific- if you dont have heavy fortifications, armor and other things requiring kinetic rounds- you dont use them.

I'll give you one example from our ( the spec ops) world

We use the DP sabot in the M82 series sniper rifles a lot when on anti material missions. ( not anti personnel)

1 round in an engine and the vehicle is toast

[Quad4_72]

true but understand what that means in the military sense

There are "standard" rounds and we have all types of "specialty rounds" as well. ( in SF, we have LAWs that fire grappling hooks and pitons rather than a HEAP rounds and such)

When you see the phrase designed for something as standard- it means the weapon will accept the "whatever" with no modifications such as different lined barrels, stronger recoil springs and such.

That doesnt mean thats what its supposed to shoot at all times.

Ammunition, like everything else is mission specific- if you dont have heavy fortifications, armor and other things requiring kinetic rounds- you dont use them.

I'll give you one example from our ( the spec ops) world

We use the DP sabot in the M82 series sniper rifles a lot when on anti material missions. ( not anti personnel)

1 round in an engine and the vehicle is toast

Very true. Like I was telling him though, we shoot a lot of HE nowadays.

[Skeptical Greg]

What is the point of your abstract fantasy?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Getting back on topic, would anyone like to argue that this emotionally manipulative Army Strong recruiting video presents an accurate representation of what someone recruited into the army will experience in their job?

YSbCnWe6e1o

Would you like to argue that any commercial is an accurate representation of what the buyer can expect to experience ?

Do you think the average U.S. Marine walks around in dress blues, and plays with a sword most of the time ?

Do you think the average Marine recruit goes in, thinking that is what they are going to be doing ?

[LONGTABBER PE]

Would you like to argue that any commercial is an accurate representation of what the buyer can expect to experience ?

Do you think the average U.S. Marine walks around in dress blues, and plays with a sword most of the time ?

Do you think the average Marine recruit goes in, thinking that is what they are going to be doing ?

I'm still trying to discern what her exact point is ( other than some lame attempt to slam the military that all liberals loathe)

I've seen hundreds of branch commercials ( not just Army) over the years- they all have the same theme- some of them promote general emotions, some of them focus on specific jobs, some of them focus on education.

As you stated- ALL commercials do this with every product ever promoted. ( how many people really believe something is "new and improved") and marketing companies use everything from bravado, sex, money and whatnot to promote their products.

How many times has anyone seen a commercial that focuses on the negative?

Is the point that recruiters "lie"? DUH, every soldier knows that but they dont "lie" any more than the average saleman. ( technically they dont "lie"- they just avoid the negative and dont tell the entire story- they focus on positives)

Is the point that "every" soldier does those things?

Hell no they dont, I dont have specifics but you can safely say that if you arent in a line company- the majority never will even see it. I would speculate that 75 % of the total army doesnt.

Is the point that they dont tell people up front about combat and the horrors of war?

If a person born since modern communications doesnt have the understanding that the ONLY reason an army exists is to FIGHT WARS and that BAD THINGS happen in war- then I think that person is too stupid to be allowed to serve. The military shouldnt have to tell them- they should already know.

I think the "point" is another generic liberal attempted smear job to try to "expose" something that everybody already knows that wasnt very well thought out and very poorly executed that blew up in her face and she doesnt know what to do next.

[paximperium]

Would you like to argue that any commercial is an accurate representation of what the buyer can expect to experience ?

Do you think the average U.S. Marine walks around in dress blues, and plays with a sword most of the time ?

Do you think the average Marine recruit goes in, thinking that is what they are going to be doing ?
I want to join the ODST. Don't you?
3Dc7zGkW7g8

[LONGTABBER PE]

Very true. Like I was telling him though, we shoot a lot of HE nowadays.

LOL, I'm sure you do

Its a comforting feeling to see Bradleys and Abrams coming in to tear someone a new one.

Whats that saying

"The combat arm of decision"

Tanks for the memories

I'll "tread" on you

( I say that because theres a funny story about my "armor" career)

[JihadJane]

Would you like to argue that any commercial is an accurate representation of what the buyer can expect to experience ?

Do you think the average U.S. Marine walks around in dress blues, and plays with a sword most of the time ?

Do you think the average Marine recruit goes in, thinking that is what they are going to be doing ?

What is the purpose of this advert, then?

People sucessfully recruited into the army aren't buying something. They are putting their lives and future wellbeing at risk.

Does the emotionally manipulative Army Strong recruiting advert present a remotely accurate representation of what someone recruited into the army will experience in their job?

If not, what is the purpose of the myths propagated in the video?

[JihadJane]

We aren't claiming her, thanks.

Not all liberals are frothing morons, thanks ever so.

We all look the same to the Liberal haters.

I'm one of you, like it or lump it!

[LONGTABBER PE]

What is the purpose of this advert, then?

People sucessfully recruited into the army aren't buying something. They are putting their lives and future wellbeing at risk.

Does the emotionally manipulative Army Strong recruiting advert present a remotely accurate representation of what someone recruited into the army will experience in their job?

If not, what is the purpose of the myths propagated in the video?

You are completely wrong ( altho I dont think you understand that or even care)

What is the purpose of this advert, then?

Its purpose is to recruit people- it shows a collage of whats available

We "do" have a VOLUNTEER military so you have to advertise

People sucessfully recruited into the army aren't buying something. They are putting their lives and future wellbeing at risk.

We know that going in. Its been proven in scientific studies that war can be hazardous to ones health. The Army has those warnings posted. I know from personal experience- I have a Purple Heart for it.

Does the emotionally manipulative Army Strong recruiting advert present a remotely accurate representation of what someone recruited into the army will experience in their job?

Yes- I explained that in great detail- what didnt you get?

If not, what is the purpose of the myths propagated in the video

What myth are you referring to. Let me tell you how that works ( been a part of many over the years)

They take the PAO types ( called MOPIC's in my older days) and film exercises

They put them together- they make an advertisement

What is this "myth" crap you keep trying to make believe into reality?

If it was a "myth"- dont you think those of us who are IN IT and DO IT for DECADES would see it?

This is where you lose all your steam and your positions horsepower. Many people here are in the system and doing it- we "know" and its obvious you have NEVER spent a day in uniform and really dont have a clue ( much less an understanding) of what you are talking about

[Nosi]

This is a ridiculously absurd statement. Provide evidence immediately.

Remains of Toxic Bullets Litter Iraq (http://www.gulfwarvets.com/toxics_litteriraq.htm)

IRAQ: BIRTH DEFECTS SPIKE DUE TO U.S. USE OF URANIUM, PHOSPHORUS (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-180041963.html)

Depleted Uranium - Far Worse Than 9/11 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2374)

DHCC report on Depleted Uranium (http://www.pdhealth.mil/du.asp)

BBC News: Depleted uranium risk 'ignored' (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6105726.stm)

Science Direct: Biological effects of embedded depleted uranium (DU): summary of Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute research (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V78-43B2999-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0a768355517905d4007db7f0f1443f5d)

Institute of Medicine: Depleted Uranium (http://veterans.iom.edu/agent.asp?id=6286)

[back2basics]

All liberals hate the military do they? I guess you would say the liberals in the military are self loathing liberals, yeah?

[Toke]

Very true. Like I was telling him though, we shoot a lot of HE nowadays.
Thanks for the elaborations you two.:)

As for the "Army strong" campaign.

My experience with the requirement videos of my last company suggest that balanced reporting is of rather low priority compared to making a nice show.
We looked at the video on board, and had trouble not laughing at the disconnect between reality and the pretty pictures.
(Like a 1./2. engineer in a clean boiler suit)

The danish army took it to humorous extreme in their campaign for officers school and promised a 800HP company car.
(Under a picture of a Leopard 1.)

[LONGTABBER PE]

All liberals hate the military do they? I guess you would say the liberals in the military are self loathing liberals, yeah?

You wont find many "liberals" in the military- they arent enough of them to count

[back2basics]

You wont find many "liberals" in the military- they arent enough of them to count

But the ones that are?

[Sabrina]

I'm in the military.

I'm probably lumped in with the liberals, even though I don't hate war and don't protest against it, as I recognize it is sometimes necessary to fight to preserve peace.

I don't hate myself.

That answer your question, back2basics?

[back2basics]

I'm in the military.

I'm probably lumped in with the liberals, even though I don't hate war and don't protest against it, as I recognize it is sometimes necessary to fight to preserve peace.

I don't hate myself.

That answer your question, back2basics?

Not really. Just wondering what LONGTABBER thinks of the liberals that fight alongside him. Cause he has some serious hate going on towards the version of liberals in his mind.

[Toke]

You wont find many "liberals" in the military- they arent enough of them to count

That sounds bad to me.
In a ideal world the military would reflect the rest of society, that is one of the reasons we keep the draft.
Our current right wing government is trying to cost save it away, they got almost everything wrong.

[Nosi]

Thanks for the elaborations you two.:)

As for the "Army strong" campaign.

My experience with the requirement videos of my last company suggest that balanced reporting is of rather low priority compared to making a nice show.
We looked at the video on board, and had trouble not laughing at the disconnect between reality and the pretty pictures.
(Like a 1./2. engineer in a clean boiler suit)

The danish army took it to humorous extreme in their campaign for officers school and promised a 800HP company car.
(Under a picture of a Leopard 1.)

You can see the disconnect between reality vs 'pretty pictures'. So can I, and JihadJane too. Unfortunately, many kids graduate highschool, turning 18 years old, with out this reality vs pictures discernment ability, thus the "myth of the Armed Forces" that has many Liberals in a right twist.

Critical thinking is rarely taught in America's schools, (thus we have Troofers able to pull in their flocks). The military will run into people gullible enough to buy a cheeseball with four plastic wheels from a salesman calling it a Porsche with a slick enough pitch in many highschools. What's keeping the armed forces from becoming overrun by fools?

[LONGTABBER PE]

But the ones that are?

I'll tell you what I think

Regardless of their political views- they took the same oath, serve the same government, take the same risks I do.

They are my brothers and sisters in arms. They are on "my" team and I theirs

We all fight for their RIGHT to have, hold and express their views as they see fit

I have the same view of races other than mine, sexual preference or whatnot

Thats why we are "ARMY STRONG" because we RISE ABOVE the trivial matters you civilians thrive on

[back2basics]

I'll tell you what I think

Regardless of their political views- they took the same oath, serve the same government, take the same risks I do.

They are my brothers and sisters in arms. They are on "my" team and I theirs

We all fight for their RIGHT to have, hold and express their views as they see fit

I have the same view of races other than mine, sexual preference or whatnot

Thats why we are "ARMY STRONG" because we RISE ABOVE the trivial matters you civilians thrive on

Well that's good. Just checking. Better get back to some trivial matters.

[oldhat]

Thats why we are "ARMY STRONG" because we RISE ABOVE the trivial matters you civilians thrive on

facepalm.jpg

[LONGTABBER PE]

Not really. Just wondering what LONGTABBER thinks of the liberals that fight alongside him. Cause he has some serious hate going on towards the version of liberals in his mind.

More of the liberal baiting going on

I disagree so that means I must ' seriously hate"

I love the way you prove my point for me. It makes my life much easier.

[LONGTABBER PE]

facepalm.jpg

I know it hurts to facepalm yourself- I'm sure you will eventually get used to it

Dont break your nose

[Toke]

What's keeping the armed forces from becoming overrun by fools?

I have it on anecdote that that is a serious problem for the us army.
The volunteer instead of draft means that a lot of the volunteers are not the sharpest ones in the drawer and that the training are adjusted for it.
It makes for specializations to an extent where doing something not included in training is more or less impossible.
Ok, some of the anecdotes stem from the difference between a small and a large military. The smaller can allow initiative at a lower level without falling apart.

[back2basics]

More of the liberal baiting going on

I disagree so that means I must ' seriously hate"

I love the way you prove my point for me. It makes my life much easier.

I don't have the time to pull together a collection of quotes (I have trivial matters to attended to) but you do come across as hating liberals, I am sorry you just do.

EDIT : Sorry i should have said, you come across as having a lot of hatred for a strawman you call liberals. (the military hating mentaly ill kind)

[LONGTABBER PE]

I don't have the time to pull together a collection of quotes (I have trivial matters to attended to) but you do come across as hating liberals, I am sorry you just do.

let me call you a WAAAAAAAAAAmbulance

[back2basics]

let me call you a WAAAAAAAAAAmbulance

Oh it doesn't bother me in the slightest, i just find you interesting. I wonder how you were created is all.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Oh it doesn't bother me in the slightest, i just find you interesting. I wonder how you were created is all.

Likewise

[Toke]

LONGTABBER PE,
Liberal is a wide definition.
Those evil socialists like me are not all of them.
JJ may not make sense to you, or to me, but there are wide range of subjects where people to the left of your perceived stance would make sense to you.

[back2basics]

Likewise

Me the liberal?

Cause you would be wrong. I guess anybody who disagrees with you is a liberal?

[LONGTABBER PE]

Me the liberal?

Cause you would be wrong. I guess anybody who disagrees with you is a liberal?

I'm not wrong and I dont do baiting

Would you like some cheese to go with your whine?

If you have a logical thought- lets see it

[paximperium]

LONGTABBER PE,
Liberal is a wide definition.
Those evil socialists like me are not all of them.
JJ may not make sense to you, or to me, but there are wide range of subjects where people to the left of your perceived stance would make sense to you.
Seconded. I'm a liberal in almost all definitions and JJ is not even a close representation of what most Liberals I know are.

[LONGTABBER PE]

LONGTABBER PE,
Liberal is a wide definition.
Those evil socialists like me are not all of them.
JJ may not make sense to you, or to me, but there are wide range of subjects where people to the left of your perceived stance would make sense to you.

Thats fine, you are also NOT a US citizen or have a hand in US politics.
It does have a "wide" definition so which one do you want to discuss?

[Toke]

Thats fine, you are also NOT a US citizen or have a hand in US politics.
It does have a "wide" definition so which one do you want to discuss?

None in particular.
Just realize that the liberal label can mean just about anything.

Like when I think of Paximperium as a right winger:D
He does definitely not agree.

Ohh, how about healthcare.
My country got a UHC that have been starved by a right wing government, but still give better outcomes than yours at half the price:D

[paximperium]

None in particular.
Just realize that the liberal label can mean just about anything.

Like when I think of Paximperium as a right winger:D
He does definitely not agree. Touche.
I lean right when it comes to killing enemies and military matters but lean heavily to the left when it comes to almost all other issues.


Ohh, how about healthcare.
My country got a UHC that have been starved by a right wing government, but still give better outcomes than yours at half the price:D
Kind of off topic?
How about the "liberal" tendency to oppose the military?

[Toke]

Touche.
I lean right when it comes to killing enemies and military matters but lean heavily to the left when it comes to almost all other issues.
Kind of off topic?
How about the "liberal" tendency to oppose the military?

Some (JJ) may have watched too much Dr Strangelove, personally I believe the military is under political control and any complain should be directed to politicians.

That is, generals are not evil warmongering beasts, it is the politicians that have wrong ideas of what can be achieved by military means.

[Toke]

One example would be the free marked paradise of Iraq.
Some deranged politicians decided to dismantle most of the country's industry by exposing it to the rest of the world. The massive unemployment were not really conductive to a peaceful reorganization of the country.

[Quad4_72]

I have it on anecdote that that is a serious problem for the us army.
The volunteer instead of draft means that a lot of the volunteers are not the sharpest ones in the drawer and that the training are adjusted for it.
It makes for specializations to an extent where doing something not included in training is more or less impossible.
Ok, some of the anecdotes stem from the difference between a small and a large military. The smaller can allow initiative at a lower level without falling apart.

Just for clarification, are you suggesting that a draft Army is better than an all volunteer Army?

[Toke]

Just for clarification, are you suggesting that a draft Army is better than an all volunteer Army?

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.

[paximperium]

Just for clarification, are you suggesting that a draft Army is better than an all volunteer Army?
It seems like he is suggesting a smaller army with higher standards would be better than a larger army with lower standards.

Edit: It seems I was wrong...

[paximperium]

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.
You can easily fix this problem by actually providing better incentives for military service. This will help with recruiting the best and brightest.

Better to have a well motivated army that is there because they want to be as opposed to those who was forced to work and don't want to be.

[LONGTABBER PE]

You can easily fix this problem by actually providing better incentives for military service. This will help with recruiting the best and brightest.

Better to have a well motivated army that is there because they want to be as opposed to those who was forced to work and don't want to be.

It worked for me ( and I'm no different than any other)

It paid for my BSME, MSEE and PhD

The benefits and opportunities are there- you simply have to USE them

[paximperium]

It worked for me ( and I'm no different than any other)

It paid for my BSME, MSEE and PhD

The benefits and opportunities are there- you simply have to USE them
I'm assuming you're an officer. How much more difficult is it for the enlisted, even NCOs to get the opportunities you had?

[LONGTABBER PE]

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.

Thats not the way it works

Those who elect to "stay" go and get promoted ( lifers)

There is no attempt to represent society- its a take it or dont mentality

[Quad4_72]

Remains of Toxic Bullets Litter Iraq (http://www.gulfwarvets.com/toxics_litteriraq.htm)

IRAQ: BIRTH DEFECTS SPIKE DUE TO U.S. USE OF URANIUM, PHOSPHORUS (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-180041963.html)

Depleted Uranium - Far Worse Than 9/11 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=2374)

DHCC report on Depleted Uranium (http://www.pdhealth.mil/du.asp)

BBC News: Depleted uranium risk 'ignored' (http://http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6105726.stm)

Science Direct: Biological effects of embedded depleted uranium (DU): summary of Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute research (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V78-43B2999-B&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=0a768355517905d4007db7f0f1443f5d)

Institute of Medicine: Depleted Uranium (http://veterans.iom.edu/agent.asp?id=6286)

The articles you linked to showed the risks of depleted uranium inhalation (Which are obvious) but did not give any hard numbers for people affected. Plus, most of the articles were talking about the Gulf War (Which we are not discussing). On top of that, one of your links has numerous DOD and Army policies specifically outlining the medical management of people who think they may have been affected and also how to work in a contaminated site, so we are already tracking on that. In fact, this link in one of your articles directly contradicts what you are suggesting:
http://www.ha.osd.mil/asd/message2.cfm

Not to mention we don't really use depleted uranium anymore. So what was your point again?

[Toke]

You can easily fix this problem by actually providing better incentives for military service. This will help with recruiting the best and brightest.

Better to have a well motivated army that is there because they want to be as opposed to those who was forced to work and don't want to be.

No, the idea is to get a representative part of the population in touch with the military through the draft.
Then you retain the best through good work conditions and "general patriotic spirit".

It is not perfect, but the alternative is to get only volunteers.
Apart from career families and Rambo wannabes, you would get some who could simply not find other jobs.

I am not a soldier but have noticed that our military are very reluctant to abandon the draft, in spite of the obvious economic disadvantage in having to train a large number to retain only some.

[LONGTABBER PE]

I'm assuming you're an officer. How much more difficult is it for the enlisted, even NCOs to get the opportunities you had?

You assume wrong. I was a E-nothing and grunt. I am now E-8 and PhD

Imagine going to "school" being a Green Beret and going everywhere.

Hell yes it was hard- not impossible tho

[paximperium]

Thats not the way it works

Those who elect to "stay" go and get promoted ( lifers)

There is no attempt to represent society- its a take it or dont mentality
Isn't the Israeli Defense Force and other modern drafted armies basically like this? A core of well trained professional "lifers" and whole bunch of draftees serving their term and waiting to go back to civilian life.

Without incentives, even the best picks, don't serve beyond their term of service.

[Quad4_72]

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I would much rather have someone who is motivated and chose to be in the fight rather than someone who may be a bit smarter. The Army trains soldiers pretty good for their specific jobs, so someone being a bit smarter than another would not make that great of a difference, especially on the junior enlisted side. Their jobs don't usually involve as much thinking, just lots of practice and execution. Then the senior NCOs have the experience. Then for officers, we all have to have college degrees to be officers (Most of the time) so there is the "smart" aspect for you.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Isn't the Israeli Defense Force and other modern drafted armies basically like this? A core of well trained professional "lifers" and whole bunch of draftees serving their term and waiting to go back to civilian life.

Without incentives, even the best picks, don't serve beyond their term of service.

Cant say- I'm not in their Army or circumstance- I can only testify to mine

[Quad4_72]

No, the idea is to get a representative part of the population in touch with the military through the draft.
Then you retain the best through good work conditions and "general patriotic spirit".

It is not perfect, but the alternative is to get only volunteers.
Apart from career families and Rambo wannabes, you would get some who could simply not find other jobs.

I am not a soldier but have noticed that our military are very reluctant to abandon the draft, in spite of the obvious economic disadvantage in having to train a large number to retain only some.

You do also realize that America has the most powerful and best trained military in the world correct? Some of that may be debatable in your opinion, but we can at least agree on one of the top 5. I personally think the best :) So I think what we are doing is working out pretty good for us.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I would much rather have someone who is motivated and chose to be in the fight rather than someone who may be a bit smarter. The Army trains soldiers pretty good for their specific jobs, so someone being a bit smarter than another would not make that great of a difference, especially on the junior enlisted side. Their jobs don't usually involve as much thinking, just lots of practice and execution. Then the senior NCOs have the experience. Then for officers, we all have to have college degrees to be officers (Most of the time) so there is the "smart" aspect for you.

Good Job- Way to go "SIR"

[back2basics]

I'm not wrong and I dont do baiting

Would you like some cheese to go with your whine?

If you have a logical thought- lets see it

No whine. But i just told you that you were wrong. You don't know me. But you are acting like you do. How is that for logic? Or do you have special powers?

Your demonization syndrome and constant defence tells me more about you than you could possibly know about me.

Thank you for your service though. I believe many countries owe American servicemen and women a lot of thanks for what they have achieved.

[paximperium]

You assume wrong. I was a E-nothing and grunt. I am now E-8 and PhD

Imagine going to "school" being a Green Beret and going everywhere.

Hell yes it was hard- not impossible tho
Then you would've really hated saluting this nobody Navy Reservist who was never called into active duty, just had to show up to a nice naval hospital to work a few times a year but got a nice shiny uniform. :cool:

Thanks for the service.

[Toke]

Gonna have to disagree with you on that one. I would much rather have someone who is motivated and chose to be in the fight rather than someone who may be a bit smarter. The Army trains soldiers pretty good for their specific jobs, so someone being a bit smarter than another would not make that great of a difference, especially on the junior enlisted side. Their jobs don't usually involve as much thinking, just lots of practice and execution. Then the senior NCOs have the experience. Then for officers, we all have to have college degrees to be officers (Most of the time) so there is the "smart" aspect for you.

This fit my anecdotal evidence on the difference between USA and Danish forces. The Danish ones start as conscripts then volunteer for service abroad, and they appear way better at thinking on their feet in a unusual situation.

Feel free to write off as nationalistic bias.;)

[Quad4_72]

Good Job- Way to go "SIR"

Haha. Thanks First (or master?) Sergeant :D

[LONGTABBER PE]

No whine. But i just told you that you were wrong. You don't know me. But you are acting like you do. How is that for logic? Or do you have special powers?

Your demonization syndrome tells me more about you than you could possibly know about me.

Thank you for your service though. I beleive many countries owe American servicemen and women a lot of thanks for what they have acheived.

Dont whine to me, I dont do it

No whine. But i just told you that you were wrong. You don't know me. But you are acting like you do. How is that for logic? Or do you have special powers?


thats why my tab says "special"- your logic has failed you and there was nothing "wrong" with what I said

Your demonization syndrome tells me more about you than you could possibly know about me.
tit for tat

Thank you for your service though. I beleive many countries owe American servicemen and women a lot of thanks for what they have acheived
you are very welcome- they all do, they just seem to forget it unless the wolf is at their door

[Quad4_72]

This fit my anecdotal evidence on the difference between USA and Danish forces. The Danish ones start as conscripts then volunteer for service abroad, and they appear way better at thinking on their feet in a unusual situation.

Feel free to write off as nationalistic bias.;)

Really not too sure what you are getting at here.

[Toke]

You do also realize that America has the most powerful and best trained military in the world correct? Some of that may be debatable in your opinion, but we can at least agree on one of the top 5. I personally think the best :) So I think what we are doing is working out pretty good for us.

I will go with the most powerful and works quite well for you.:)

[Quad4_72]

I will go with the most powerful and works quite well for you.:)

Well sounds like we agree with each other then :) Debate over haha.

[paximperium]

You do also realize that America has the most powerful and best trained military in the world correct? Some of that may be debatable in your opinion, but we can at least agree on one of the top 5. I personally think the best :) So I think what we are doing is working out pretty good for us.
I can agree with this...except for the large waste and humongous cost involved with maintaining this status.

[ElectricVoodoo]

Yes, absolutely.
The draft army gets a even distribution of the society, with regards to brains, politics, and educational standing. It can then "pick*" the most qualified for the jobs. The volunteer army have a sharply reduced recruitment base, and even though the recruits are far more motivated they are not representative of their society or likely to be as qualified.

*The "pick" part involves the military convincing people who would otherwise never have considered a military career that it it right for them.

This is subjective. I largely disagree with you here. In the US and Canada I would not dream of having a draft military. Some nations do well with mandatory service, others have astonishingly abysmal records (allies included) and undermines military efforts from other nations leading to unnecessary and potentially avoidable military and civilian casualties.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Haha. Thanks First (or master?) Sergeant :D

i was a "first Sergeant" on orders as an E-6 in a reserve unit ( enjoyed it)

I'm just a Master Sergeant

Carry on Sir- these people obviously have no concept of customs and courtesies or 22-5

[LONGTABBER PE]

This is subjective. I largely disagree with you here. In the US and Canada I would not dream of having a draft military. Some nations do well with mandatory service, others have astonishingly abysmal records (allies included) and undermines military efforts from other nations leading to unnecessary and potentially avoidable military and civilian casualties.

acknowledging a General Officer in the thread ( and not disagreeing)

I'll stand in the corner now

[Toke]

This is subjective. I largely disagree with you here. In the US and Canada I would not dream of having a draft military. Some nations do well with mandatory service, others have astonishingly abysmal records (allies included) and undermines military efforts from other nations leading to unnecessary and potentially avoidable military and civilian casualties.

Well, there could be some cultural differences involved here?

[Quad4_72]

Well, there could be some cultural differences involved here?

Indeed. You see, there are quite a few hippies in America and if they were to be drafted, well, let's just say the quality of our fighting force would diminish drastically.

[ElectricVoodoo]

acknowledging a General Officer in the thread ( and not disagreeing)

I'll stand in the corner now

I'm ordering you on the front line here.

And don't downplay your rank and abilities. You're one of the most intelligent E-8's I've been in contact with.

ETA: Forget E-anything. Let's go with O-up.

[ElectricVoodoo]

Well, there could be some cultural differences involved here?

There are cultural differences, there are disagreements among strong allies - name an important aspect of society and you will likely find it somewhere in the forces. Even the MRE's are vastly different.

[back2basics]

Dont whine to me, I dont do it




thats why my tab says "special"- your logic has failed you and there was nothing "wrong" with what I said


tit for tat


you are very welcome- they all do, they just seem to forget it unless the wolf is at their door

You do know your need to demonize is a weakness? I would think you worked that out already? It is part of your job after all, but its the part that makes it easier for you to do your job.

[Quad4_72]

You do know your need to demonize is a weakness? I would think you worked that out already? It is part of your job after all, but its the part that makes it easier for you to do your job.

Wait a second here, demonizing the weak is part of his job? Please do elaborate on that.

[ElectricVoodoo]

You do know your need to demonize is a weakness? I would think you worked that out already? It is part of your job after all, but its the part that makes it easier for you to do your job.

Wait a second here, demonizing the weak is part of his job? Please do elaborate on that.

I second the motion. Please, elaborate and back your statement up with evidence to support your claim.

[back2basics]

Wait a second here, demonizing the weak is part of his job? Please do elaborate on that.

Sorry that’s not at all what I was saying.

I said demonizing IN his job is a weakness.

I know people in special forces. They have not resorted to demonization to find it easier to kill. Our friend here is the master demonizer. It takes practice to get that good, look at his posts. He demonizes civis, liberals all sorts of people. I think he learnt that because he is a good person, but finds it harder to kill an enemy he believes is not entirely like him. While some can do it as its their task.

[Quad4_72]

Sorry that’s not at all what I was saying.

I said demonizing IN his job is a weakness.

I know people in special forces. They have not resorted to demonization to find it easier to kill. Our friend here is the master demonize. It takes practice to get that good. I think he learnt that because he is a good person, but finds it harder to kill an enemy he believes is not entirely like him. While some can do it as its their task.

Where in the hell did you get ANY of that from?

[back2basics]

Where in the hell did you get ANY of that from?

Psycology and his posts. People who demonize, this much, are doing it for a reason. It's not a stretch to see where that comes from, considering his vocation. I would rather think of it that way than projection, which would be an insult to the man.

[Quad4_72]

Psycology and his posts. People who demonize, this much, are doing it for a reason. It's not a stretch to see where that comes from, considering his vocation.

I am no fan of liberals either. Do I demonize as well?

[back2basics]

I am no fan of liberals either. Do I demonize as well?

Nope.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Sorry that’s not at all what I was saying.

I said demonizing IN his job is a weakness.

I know people in special forces. They have not resorted to demonization to find it easier to kill. Our friend here is the master demonizer. It takes practice to get that good, look at his post. He demonizes civis, liberals all sorfts of people. I think he learnt that because he is a good person, but finds it harder to kill an enemy he believes is not entirely like him. While some can do it as its their task.

Sorry that’s not at all what I was saying.

You dont know what you were saying

I know people in special forces.
You couldnt possibly- if you did, they wouldnt acknowledge you

Our friend here is the master demonizer. It takes practice to get that good, look at his post. He demonizes civis, liberals all sorfts of people. I think he learnt that because he is a good person, but finds it harder to kill an enemy he believes is not entirely like him. While some can do it as its their task

Thats a load of crap. I know when I kill- I know when I give the order to kill. I remember all of them. I still dont see your point- if you have one

[back2basics]

You dont know what you were saying


You couldnt possibly- if you did, they wouldnt acknowledge you



Thats a load of crap. I know when I kill- I know when I give the order to kill. I remember all of them. I still dont see your point- if you have one


Just saying it’s a coping mechanism... or projection. But I would rather think of you as a good person, give you the benefit of the doubt.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Just saying it’s a coping mechanism... or projection. But I would rather think of you as a good person, give you the benefit of the doubt.

I dont need or otherwise want your "opinion"

[back2basics]

I dont need or otherwise want your "opinion"


I know you don't. But maybe you should do some reading in to it. It may help you adjust. Hell it may help you do your job.

[Quad4_72]

I know you don't. But maybe you should do some reading in to it. It may help you adjust. Hell it may help you do your job.

Ok back2basics, I think you're done here.

[back2basics]

Ok back2basics, I think you're done here.

Are you pulling rank?

[Quad4_72]

Are you pulling rank?

Ummmmm yes. Unless you have something else to say that DOES make sense...

[LONGTABBER PE]

I know you don't. But maybe you should do some reading in to it. It may help you adjust.

Let me guess

You are a no combat, no service, no experience, no knowledge REMF who knows what?

[back2basics]

Look gents, it’s simple. These are not concepts that are controversial. They are not Freudian. He does demonize. And many in the forces need to do that to kill. Well documented, unless you have some studies to say I am wrong? He has to get this from somewhere, and it’s not rocket science to see where it comes from. So unless you want to try and explain why a learnt behavior of demonization is not connected to his job, I will consider you accepting my argument.

Until you do offer evidence, I will continue to see it as a coping mechanism. And hey, he needs to do it, let him. But let’s call a spade a spade.

[oldhat]

Ok back2basics, I think you're done here.

LOL, tough guy.

[back2basics]

Let me guess

You are a no combat, no service, no experience, no knowledge REMF who knows what?


Correct. But I have studied the coping mechanism you are using.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Look gents, it’s simple. These are not concepts that are controversial. They are not Freudian. He does demonize. And many in the forces need to do that to kill. Well documented, unless you have some studies to say I am wrong? He has to get this from somewhere, and it’s not rocket science to see where it comes from. So unless you want to try and explain why a learnt behavior of demonization is not connected to his job, I will consider you accepting my argument.

Until you do offer evidence, I will continue to see it as a coping mechanism. And hey, he needs to do it, let him. But let’s call a spade a spade.

Lets get some cheese to go with that whine and call a

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance

[back2basics]

Lets get some cheese to go with that whine and call a

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAmbulance


Actually i should call one for you.

[Quad4_72]

Look gents, it’s simple. These are not concepts that are controversial. They are not Freudian. He does demonize. And many in the forces need to do that to kill. Well documented, unless you have some studies to say I am wrong? He has to get this from somewhere, and it’s not rocket science to see where it comes from. So unless you want to try and explain why a learnt behavior of demonization is not connected to his job, I will consider you accepting my argument.

Until you do offer evidence, I will continue to see it as a coping mechanism. And hey, he needs to do it, let him. But let’s call a spade a spade.

Out of curiosity where are you from and what exactly are your credentials that allow you to define someone's coping mechanism for killing from a few internet posts?

[Quad4_72]

LOL, tough guy.

That was a joke in case you are being serious. I probably should have put a smily of some sort.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Correct. But i have studied the coping mechanisem you are using.

Yeah, you studied it alright- straight from Ft Livingroom

Another know nothing, do nothing wanna be that wishes he was
You "studied' -well good job, carry on ( LMFAO)

[back2basics]

Out of curiosity where are you from and what exactly are your credentials that allow you to define someone's coping mechanism for killing from a few internet posts?


Well defined psycological studies and in fact your training tell me that. You are told not to demonize the enemy, are you not?

[Audible Click]

Correct. But i have studied the coping mechanisem you are using.

How do you know LT is using a "coping mechanism"? No one can diagnose anyone over the internet and you don't do yourself any favors by indulging in this sort of posting.

[Quad4_72]

Well defined psycological studies and in fact your training tell me that. You are told not to demonize the enemy, are you not?

Did you mean to respond to my post? What you said has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked you.

[Quad4_72]

How do you know LT is using a "coping mechanism"? No one can diagnose anyone over the internet and you don't do yourself any favors by indulging in this sort of posting.

I think perhaps he meant to quote longtabber. Even then you are still right.

[back2basics]

How do you know LT is using a "coping mechanism"? No one can diagnose anyone over the internet and you don't do yourself any favors by indulging in this sort of posting.

Not making a diagnosis. I am expressing an obvious link. I am not trying to do myself any favours, just trying to explain why this patriot could demonize so many sections of society so easily.

[back2basics]

Did you mean to respond to my post? What you said has absolutely nothing to do with what I asked you.


Are you or are you not told not to demonize the enemy in your training? And why?

[Quad4_72]

Are you or are you not told not to demonize the enemy in your training? And why?

No, we are not told to demonize the enemy. Nothing is said on the matter actually and I have no idea where you got that from.

[Audible Click]

What ever link you see is only obvious to you. It would seem that you have very little knowledge about the mindset of the people that serve in the U.S. armed forces, you walk a very fine line when you post about LT and his "demonizing so many sections of society."

[Quad4_72]

Out of curiosity where are you from and what exactly are your credentials that allow you to define someone's coping mechanism for killing from a few internet posts?

And to quote myself back2basics, if you don't mind I would like an answer to these questions.

[back2basics]

No, we are not told to demonize the enemy. Nothing is said on the matter actually and I have no idea where you got that from.

Thats good advice. Its an instruction you should take seriously.

[ElectricVoodoo]

Well defined psycological studies and in fact your training tell me that. You are told not to demonize the enemy.

Have you studied current psychological aspects that have been researched reviewed, adopted, and implemented into the two primary theaters (and elsewhere)? A form of it has been with the armed services since the 60's and 70's and is constantly updated down to the physical environment the individual soldier is subjected to. The modern (current-and-adapting) method has proven much more adequate comparing previous generations. It is taken so seriously that unless a crime/major infraction has been committed, lives are in danger, etc. I will never see the personnel files no matter how many stars I wear. It would be a ****fest to obtain them even on servicemen and women under my direct command and would be at the risk of my career.

[back2basics]

And to quote myself back2basics, if you don't mind I would like an answer to these questions.

My credentials are the same as the people who told you, trained you, not to demonize the enemy.

[back2basics]

[QUOTE=ElectricVoodoo;5113223]Have you studied current psychological aspects that have been researched reviewed, adopted, and implemented into the two primary theaters (and elsewhere)? A form of it has been with the armed services since the 60's and 70's and is constantly updated down to the physical environment the individual soldier is subjected to. The modern (current-and-adapting) method has proven much more adequate comparing previous generations. It is taken so seriously that unless a crime/major infraction has been committed, lives are in danger, etc. I will never see the personnel files no matter how many stars I wear. It would be a ****fest to obtain them even on servicemen and women under my direct command and would be at the risk of my career.[/QUOTE

I am just talking about your training.

[LONGTABBER PE]

Not making a diagnosis. I am expressing an obvious link. I am not trying to do myself any favours, just trying to explain why this patriot could demonize so many sections of society so easily.

Who did I "demonise"? and how

I'm of the opinion you cannot distinguish your head from your ass- prove me wrong

[back2basics]

What ever link you see is only obvious to you. It would seem that you have very little knowledge about the mindset of the people that serve in the U.S. armed forces, you walk a very fine line when you post about LT and his "demonizing so many sections of society."

Click on his name, search his posts, read.