Catholic group urges "Prayer before Sex"

[DOC]

This Catholic group says couples should pray before having sex. I realize there will probably be some callow comments in this thread, but so be it I guess.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210519/Never-mind-pillow-talk-couples-told-Roman-Catholic-church-PRAY-sex.html

[Pure Argent]

This Catholic group says couples should pray before having sex. I realize there will probably be some callow comments in this thread, but so be it I guess.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210519/Never-mind-pillow-talk-couples-told-Roman-Catholic-church-PRAY-sex.html

Why did you post this? What intelligent debate is it supposed to bring to this forum?

On an alternate subject, we may have to change the Yrreg Stage List's name to the DOC/Yrreg Stage List.

[~enigma~]

Why did you post this? What intelligent debate is it supposed to bring to this forum?
Maybe he wanted to bring our attention to the newest method of birth control invented by the catholic church.

[Piscivore]

Maybe he wanted to bring our attention to the newest method of birth control invented by the catholic church.

Isn't that praying after sex? "Oh, Jesus, don't let her be pregnant, oh God, please let her get her period..."

[DOC]

Maybe he wanted to bring our attention to the newest method of birth control invented by the catholic church.

The Catholic church doesn't believe in birth control except I believe the rhythm method is allowed.

[Foster Zygote]

I believe the Catholic church doesn't believe in birth control within marriage except for the rythem method.

That's true. My wife and I know a couple with three rhythm-method children.

[~enigma~]

I believe the Catholic church doesn't believe in birth control within marriage except for the rhythm method.
Then why are they introducing birth control by the "mood killer" method?

[Foster Zygote]

I usually pray that there are no injuries or damage to property.

[DOC]

That's true. My wife and I know a couple with three rhythm-method children.I bet those children are glad they practiced it.

[PlayingDeaf]

Why did you post this? What intelligent debate is it supposed to bring to this forum?

What was the point of yours?
________________________

That said...

My take is that it would make sex awkward for those who are religious. I'm not, but if you are religious enough to pray before sex, I don't think it's needed.

It's weird that this is new, right? Why all of sudden the praying before sex? or is this not new? What's next to pray before doing?

[FreshHat]

Taking the term "Holy :rule10" to a literal level.

[Bikewer]

Prior to Viagra, there were a great many prayers before sex....

[Foster Zygote]

I bet those children are glad they practiced it.

And their fourth child is probably glad that his father lied about getting his vasectomy.

Do you have a point?

[Hokulele]

A book published by a prominent Church group invites those setting out on married life to recite the specially-composed Prayer Before Making Love.

It is aimed at 'purifying their intentions' so that the act is not about selfishness or hedonism.


The prayer, which appears in the Prayer Book for Spouses, implores God 'to place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes'.

It adds: 'Open our hearts to you, to each other and to the goodness of your will.

'Cover our poverty in the richness of your mercy and forgiveness. Clothe us in true dignity and take to yourself our shared aspirations, for your glory, for ever and ever.'


That sounds like a mood-breaker.

DOC, are you married?

[Twiler]

This Catholic group says couples should pray before having sex. I realize there will probably be some callow comments in this thread, but so be it I guess.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210519/Never-mind-pillow-talk-couples-told-Roman-Catholic-church-PRAY-sex.html

I think you're just trying to provoke atheists.

[Hokulele]

I bet those children are glad they practiced it.


That is the start of a slippery slope. If a child is born out of rape or incest, should they be glad that their father was an abusive prick?

[RoboTimbo]

I have a better idea: Theists should think before they go to church.

[slingblade]

One more thing I don't have to do.

Hooray for Atheism!

[SezMe]

When I was in college, all the men I knew were praying for sex

[joobz]

That sounds like a mood-breaker.
I don't know about that. It's all in how you say it.

"Cover your poverty, baby. Yeah, just like that in the richness... You are soooo richness right now."

"That's it. Give me your mercy. yeah, shake your mercy maker."

"Oh Baby, I'm about to glory soo hard, yeah! Glory to you. to you!!!! FOR EVER AND EVERRRRRRR!!!!"

[ProbeX]

Great advice. I'll tell my gay posse Catholics want them to pray before they have sex.

[jmcvann]

It seems the prayer is only being recommended for married people. Which makes sense, as those are the only people who should be having sex. [/sarcasm]

[bokonon]

As an atheist married to a Catholic, I prefer to have my partner call on the Lord during sex.

[KingMerv00]

I bet those children are glad they practiced it.

And the 4 children that don't exist because they practiced it? How do you suppose they feel?

[Minarvia]

DOC, are you married?

IPU, PLEASE no! Please say he hasn't reproduced! ;)

Okay, I hope that wasn't too inappropriate, but I couldn't resist.

And seriously, wouldn't the "rhythm method" be a form of birth control with just a higher level of failure than other methods?

[BobTheDonkey]

And the 4 children that don't exist because they practiced it? How do you suppose they feel?

My non-existent kids thank me every day :D

[Rasmus]

When I was in college, all the men I knew were praying for sex

You beat me to it.

I was going to say something like

I don't see what's so funny. I pray before sex and it really helps. A few years give or take and *bam* I get laid.

[SphereGuy]

Anything to get a girl on her knees.

[BobTheDonkey]

I think the Catholic church has been hanging on to this one for awhile...hence it was only altar-boys that the priests engaged with.

[shandyjan]

I don't know about that. It's all in how you say it.

"Cover your poverty, baby. Yeah, just like that in the richness... You are soooo richness right now."

"That's it. Give me your mercy. yeah, shake your mercy maker."

"Oh Baby, I'm about to glory soo hard, yeah! Glory to you. to you!!!! FOR EVER AND EVERRRRRRR!!!!"

I would think I was in bed with Mike Myers, that would be a birth control in itself.
Oh I have no real comment, I mean you arn't supposed to enjoy sex so it makes sense. The whole sex thing is ridiculous, all those sensual organs and we are meant to never be abandoned?

[joobz]

And seriously, wouldn't the "rhythm method" be a form of birth control with just a higher level of failure than other methods?
Yup, except it doesn't prevent the transmission of STDs.

God seems to be a fan of Herpies.

[Mojo]

This Catholic group says couples should pray before having sex.
Isn't that praying after sex? "Oh, Jesus, don't let her be pregnant, oh God, please let her get her period..."


I tried praying during sex, but I never got beyond "oh God..."

[joobz]

I tried praying during sex, but I never got beyond "oh God..."
Ah...
The old "There's no atheists in foxholes argument."

[Kevin_Lowe]

If you were specific enough in asking forgiveness for what you were about to do, in roughly chronological order perhaps, it could be kind of sexy. :)

[RobRoy]

God seems to be a fan of Herpies.

Is that why they keep flying in the window?

[Marquis de Carabas]

Our Father, who art in Heaven
Hallowed be Thy name
Thy will be done,
My willy come
On breasts, as it is in porno
Give me this day my daily head
And forgive my ejaculations
As I forgive those who ejaculate against me
And lead us not into chlamydia
But deliver us from herpes
For thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory forever
Amen

[steve s]

I bet those children are glad they practiced it.

Imagine how many more happy children there would be if we fertilized every egg in every woman's body.

Steve S.

[joobz]

Is that why they keep flying in the window?
stop it.... you made me spit my milky substance out.

[RobRoy]

Our Father, who art in Heaven
Hallowed be Thy name
Thy will be done,
My willy come
On breasts, as it is in porno
Give me this day my daily head
And forgive my ejaculations
As I forgive those who ejaculate against me
And lead us not into chlamydia
But deliver us from herpes
For thine is the Kingdom, and the Power, and the Glory forever
Amen

Nominated.

[Mojo]

This Catholic group says couples should pray before having sex. I realize there will probably be some callow comments in this thread, but so be it I guess.


Do you consider Catholics to be true Christians?

[Pure Argent]

THIS THREAD HAS RECEIVED

PURE_ARGENT'S OFFICAL SEAL OF APPROVAL

:wave1

[RobRoy]

stop it.... you made me spit my milky substance out.

It's always sexier when you swallow.

[RobRoy]

THIS THREAD HAS RECEIVED

PURE_ARGENT'S OFFICAL SEAL OF APPROVAL

:wave1

Is that like a dental dam?

[DOC]

My take is that it would make sex awkward for those who are religious.

Or it could make it a deeper more fulfilling, more meaningful experience.

[RoboTimbo]

Or it could make it a deeper more fulfilling, more meaningful experience.

Engaging god in a 3 way?

[joobz]

Or it could make it a deeper more fulfilling, more meaningful experience.
for some, maybe. But then again, some people like popping balloons as foreplay. So, YMMV.

[DOC]

That is the start of a slippery slope. If a child is born out of rape or incest, should they be glad that their father was an abusive prick?I don't know about being glad, but well known TV preacher James Robison (who was conceived by rape) is probably happy that his mother's doctor wouldn't perform the abortion she wanted. Also the thousands who have received help from his organization's international charity outreach are probably glad of that fact also.

[RobRoy]

I don't know about being glad, but well known TV preacher James Robison (who was conceived by rape) is probably happy that his mother's doctor wouldn't perform the abortion she wanted. Also the thousands who have received help from his organization's international charity outreach are probably glad of that fact also.

Non sequitor argument in just 40-odd posts. That's gotta be a record!

[Myriad]

'...place within us love that truly gives, tenderness that truly unites, self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive, forgiveness that truly receives, loving physical union that welcomes'.


Assuming that one actually wants to stay a couple with one's partner for a long time, that's actually a rather nice thought. With or without the involvement of a deity.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[DOC]

And seriously, wouldn't the "rhythm method" be a form of birth control with just a higher level of failure than other methods?Yes, but at least according to the Catholic Church, it is a Godly form of birth control whereas other methods are considered by the Church as ungodly (or against God's will) and thus sinful in nature -- though many Catholics don't adhere to the Church's teaching.

[Cleon]

Yes, but at least according to the Catholic Church, it is a Godly form of birth control whereas other methods are considered by the Church as ungodly (or against God's will) and thus sinful in nature -- though many Catholics don't adhere to the Church's teaching.

Which is a ridiculous position to take.

[DOC]

I think the Catholic church has been hanging on to this one for awhile...hence it was only altar-boys that the priests engaged with.

Actually illicit sex between public school teachers and students is a worse problem than the priest problem ever was. The media doesn't play up that though, which is why it is still a problem and why you still periodically read about it in your paper.

[paximperium]

Yes, but at least according to the Catholic Church, it is a Godly form of birth control whereas other methods are considered by the Church as ungodly (or against God's will) and thus sinful in nature -- though many Catholics don't adhere to the Church's teaching.
That's nice. What do YOU think?

[paximperium]

Actually illicit sex between public school teachers and students is a worse problem than the priest problem ever was. The media doesn't play up that though, which is why it is still a problem and why you still periodically read about it in your paper.
Really? You mean the school districts are systematically trying to cover up child abuse by moving their teachers around or promoting them to other positions while bullying parents and kids to shut up about these abuses?

Would you like to actually provide some statistics to back up this claim?

[bokonon]

Engaging god in a 3 way?
He just likes to watch.

[thaiboxerken]

Does the author advocate group prayer as well?

[DOC]

Do you consider Catholics to be true Christians?I believe if you believe Christ is Divine and also believe in the Holy Trinity you are a true Christian. But you also have to act on those beliefs 7 days a week and not be a Sunday morning only Christian.

[joobz]

Yes, but at least according to the Catholic Church, it is a Godly form of birth control whereas other methods are considered by the Church as ungodly (or against God's will) and thus sinful in nature -- though many Catholics don't adhere to the Church's teaching.
So god will's people aids. Well, at least it's consistent with his "Pro beating slaves" policy.

[Mojo]

Actually illicit sex between public school teachers and students is a worse problem than the priest problem ever was.


Is that "public school" as in US or UK usage?

[joobz]

I believe if you believe Christ is Divine and also believe in the Holy Trinity you are a true Christian.
So, then you agree that Thomas Jefferson wasn't a christian.


Special pleading in 5, 4, 3, ....

[paximperium]

So the Mormon's are true Christians? That's nice.

[RobRoy]

So the Mormon's are true Christians? That's nice.

That's what they've always thought. In fact, they claim to be the only true Christians.

[Hokulele]

I don't know about being glad, but well known TV preacher James Robison (who was conceived by rape) is probably happy that his mother's doctor wouldn't perform the abortion she wanted. Also the thousands who have received help from his organization's international charity outreach are probably glad of that fact also.


I sincerely hope you never have a daughter.

[linusrichard]

The media doesn't play up that though, which is ... why you still periodically read about it in your paper.

(applauds)

[Ron_Tomkins]

Catholic group urges "Prayer before Sex"

No, sorry. Unless you're wearing a condom, it's really not going to work. Period.

[joobz]

(applauds)
good catch!

[Foster Zygote]

Yes, but at least according to the Catholic Church, it is a Godly form of birth control whereas other methods are considered by the Church as ungodly (or against God's will) and thus sinful in nature...

Which is why AIDS is spreading so fast in Africa.

[Marduk]

This Catholic group says couples should pray before having sex. I realize there will probably be some callow comments in this thread, but so be it I guess.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210519/Never-mind-pillow-talk-couples-told-Roman-Catholic-church-PRAY-sex.html

I often encourage my other half to pray before sex, it wouldn't seem right after all for her to wear the purple backless rubber nuns outfit without having her at least pay lip service to the guy who inspired it
:D

[jhunter1163]

Can't believe this thread got to 69 *snicker* posts without this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

[pakeha]

I don't know about being glad, but well known TV preacher James Robison (who was conceived by rape) is probably happy that his mother's doctor wouldn't perform the abortion she wanted. Also the thousands who have received help from his organization's international charity outreach are probably glad of that fact also.

This is the guy?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/robison_bbb.htm

[Cavemonster]

I don't know about being glad, but well known TV preacher James Robison (who was conceived by rape) is probably happy that his mother's doctor wouldn't perform the abortion she wanted. Also the thousands who have received help from his organization's international charity outreach are probably glad of that fact also.

If it wasn't for the Catholic Church's ban on contraception, millions and millions of children born into disease, poverty and starvation wouldn't be there to need an international charity outreach. Their parents, with less kids they can't afford will be able to devote their time and resources toward bettering their lives and community. Scarce food and potable water would no longer be stretched so thin. Crime rates would decrease dramatically.

I wish the Pope's dad had used a rubber.

[Olowkow]

This is the guy?
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Wolves/robison_bbb.htm
Ah, never mind.

[bruto]

Or it could make it a deeper more fulfilling, more meaningful experience.Can you explain why?

[blobru]

Here (http://groups.google.com/group/soc.retirement/browse_thread/thread/e734046dd163abc7/e507a776fa6eed64?lnk=raot)'s the prayer's full text:

Father, send your Holy Spirit into our hearts.

Place within us love that truly gives,
tenderness that truly unites,
self-offering that tells the truth and does not deceive,
forgiveness that truly receives,
loving physical union that welcomes.

Open our hearts to you, to each other
and to the goodness of your will.

Cover our poverty in the richness of your mercy and forgiveness.

Clothe us in our true dignity
and take to yourself our shared aspirations,
for your glory, for ever and ever.

Mary, our Mother, intercede for us. Amen.


:eusa_eh: "Mary, our Mother, intercede for us"? 'Inter seed'? Okay, Catholicks, whatever you're into. Besides, Mary's a milf; if she and the Holy Spurt are game, then all aboard.

My two cents: have Pope Benedict recite this in his deepest Latin Mass / Barry White register over a slow, funky bass beat -- "O baby jesus" -- guaranteed to absolve your mate of all false inhibitions or 9/10 of your money back.


:eusa_pray: I like big butts and I can not lie / You other brothers can't deny / That when a nun walks in with an itty bitty waist / And a round thing in your face...

[bruto]

You're right on the verge of a nice ****, and what do you pray for? Cover us and clothe us. Damn, those guys have some hangups, don't they?

[proudnonbbeliever]

When I was in college, all the men I knew were praying for sex

As a man I can say affirm that to be true, usually from high school age onwards.

[Aitch]

You're right on the verge of a nice ****, and what do you pray for? ?

How about "for what we are about to receive may the Lord make us truly thankful"? ;)

[Pure Argent]

Yes, but at least according to the Catholic Church, it is a Godly form of birth control whereas other methods are considered by the Church as ungodly (or against God's will) and thus sinful in nature -- though many Catholics don't adhere to the Church's teaching.

That's because it's a stupid teaching.

How about "for what we are about to receive may the Lord make us truly thankful"? ;)

WIN

[BobTheDonkey]

How about "for what we are about to receive may the Lord make us truly thankful"? ;)

Here's the alternate for someone who's had bad sex:

"God, please, let it be good this time. I will follow your will for the rest of my days, if you'll only make this so good that I can be truly thankful."

:D

[Cleon]

Which is why AIDS is spreading so fast in Africa.

This.

The Catholic Church's position on birth control is indefensible.

[DOC]

Actually illicit sex between public school teachers and students is a worse problem than the priest problem ever was. The media doesn't play up that though, which is why it is still a problem and why you still periodically read about it in your paper.

Really? You mean the school districts are systematically trying to cover up child abuse by moving their teachers around or promoting them to other positions while bullying parents and kids to shut up about these abuses?

Would you like to actually provide some statistics to back up this claim?

Well I've read some school administrators have moved teachers around and the statistics you requested are in this article:

"Sex Abuse by Teachers Said Worse Than Catholic Church" by Jon E. Dougherty, Newsmax
Monday, Apr. 05, 2004

"To support her contention, Shakeshaft compared the priest abuse data with data collected in a national survey for the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation in 2000. Extrapolating data from the latter, she estimated roughly 290,000 students experienced some sort of physical sexual abuse by a school employee from a single decade—1991-2000. That compares with about five decades of cases of abusive priests.

Such figures led her to contend "the physical sexual abuse of students in schools is likely more than 100 times the abuse by priests."

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2004/4/5/01552.shtml

[RobRoy]

I wonder if the teachers prayed before they engaged in sexual abuse?

[JimBenArm]

So, does being on my knees in front of my wife going "Oh, please?" count as praying before sex?

[Hokulele]

Well I've read some school administrators have moved teachers around and the statistics you requested are in this article:

"Sex Abuse by Teachers Said Worse Than Catholic Church" by Jon E. Dougherty, Newsmax
Monday, Apr. 05, 2004

"To support her contention, Shakeshaft compared the priest abuse data with data collected in a national survey for the American Association of University Women Educational Foundation in 2000. Extrapolating data from the latter, she estimated roughly 290,000 students experienced some sort of physical sexual abuse by a school employee from a single decade—1991-2000. That compares with about five decades of cases of abusive priests.


Ah, tu quoque. I suppose that justifies the abuse by the priests?

Anyway, there are two well-known problems with Shakeshaft's claim.

1) She is comparing raw numbers rather than percentages. Almost all children in the US attend school. A much smaller percentage attend a Catholic church. As such, it is like comparing the raw numbers of atheists in US prisons compared to the raw numbers of Christians in the same prisons.

2) Her numbers are wildly inflated, and include types of abuse that are omitted from the survey of those abused by priests. From later in the same article:

Nan Stein, director of a project on sexual harassment in schools at the Center for Research on Women at Wellesley College, cited far fewer cases annually than Shakeshaft; she said she believes "several hundred" cases of student-teacher sexual abuse cases occur each year.

And six years earlier Education Week searched newspaper archives and databases, finding 244 cases in a six-month period. The allegations in that short 1998 study ranged from unwanted touching to sexual relationships and serial rape.


That would give a far lower number than the 290,000 over 10 years quoted by Shakeshaft. In addition, these numbers include all school employees, not just the teachers. It is likely abuse numbers would increase if abuse of minors by all adults in responsible positions within the church were counted, not just the priests.

[DOC]

Is that "public school" as in US or UK usage?

US -- according to the above article. It doesn't talk about the UK.

[DOC]

So, then you agree that Thomas Jefferson wasn't a christianHe wasn't a mainline Christian because he didn't believe Christ divine. He did though think Christ's teachings were the most moralistic and sublime in the history of humanity.

He also believed he was a Christian and said so in a letter as you know since you were in my Jefferson thread from 2 years ago.

[DOC]

So the Mormon's are true Christians? That's nice.Actually Mormonism's concept of God is quite different from mainline Christianity because they believe God exists in human form on or near the planet or star called Kolob. Whereas mainline Christianity believes God (the Father) is spirit.

I personally believe Mormonism is a distortion of true Christianity. They do do some good work though.

[thaiboxerken]

He DOC, does the public school system have a policy to silence victims of pedophilia?

The Catholic Church does.

[RobRoy]

Actually Mormonism's concept of God is quite different from mainline Christianity because they believe God exists in human form on or near the planet or star called Kolob. Whereas mainline Christianity believes God (the Father) is spirit.

Wrong, they believe that God exists in a physical form, and that He was once like us, but not that He was never human. The differences are subtle, but they are still there.

I personally believe Mormonism is a distortion of true Christianity. They do do some good work though.

Even though it meets your stated criteria? Or do you always have to caveat your criteria to exclude those you don't agree with in retrospect.

[DOC]

The media doesn't play up that though, which is why it is still a problem and why you still periodically read about it in your paper.

(applauds)

There is a difference in reporting a teacher has been accused of sexual abuse in a isolated local news article and making a huge national media event of it as was done with the priest scandal for many months. I don't mind them making a huge national media event of it with the priests, I just wish they would do the same thing with the serious teacher-student sex abuse problem. But the media is just not interested in doing that and that's why it is still a problem that you will occasionally read about in your "local" paper (usually with no mention of the seriousness of it as a widespread national problem).

[linusrichard]

There is a difference in reporting a teacher has been accused of sexual abuse in a isolated local news article and making a huge national media event of it as was done with the priest scandal for many months. I don't mind them making a huge national media event of it with the priests, I just wish they would do the same thing with the serious teacher-student sex abuse problem. But the media is just not interested in doing that and that's why it is still a problem that you will occasionally read about in your "local" paper.

As has been pointed out...

He DOC, does the public school system have a policy to silence victims of pedophilia?

The Catholic Church does.

There's more to the story of child abuse in the Catholic Church than just the child abuse.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Good head, good teat
Good God, let's secrete

[DOC]

Actually Mormonism's concept of God is quite different from mainline Christianity because they believe God exists in human form on or near the planet or star called Kolob. Whereas mainline Christianity believes God (the Father) is spirit.

I personally believe Mormonism is a distortion of true Christianity. They do do some good work though.

Wrong, they believe that God exists in a physical form, and that He was once like us, but not that He was ever human. The differences are subtle, but they are still there.

I remember reading that a former president of the Mormon church said if God walked down the aisle he would appear to be no different than anyone else.

And don't you agree that God the Father in Mormonism has flesh and bone.

[Elizabeth I]

I bet those children are glad they practiced it.

That's a really stupid thing to say. Had those parents practiced an effective method of contraception, there would be no children to have an opinion.


And seriously, wouldn't the "rhythm method" be a form of birth control with just a higher level of failure than other methods?

Actually, the rhythm method is a form of family planning, allowing parents to space their children, since, on average, a couple who uses the method creates a pregnancy about once every two years. (Statistic remembered from an old job as a birth control counselor.)


Is that "public school" as in US or UK usage?

Don't be silly. Don't you know that to people like doc there are no other countries than the U.S., except when they need to point to a particularly godless population as a horrible example? :rolleyes:


There is a difference in reporting a teacher has been accused of sexual abuse in a isolated local news article and making a huge national media event of it as was done with the priest scandal for many months. I don't mind them making a huge national media event of it with the priests, I just wish they would do the same thing with the serious teacher-student sex abuse problem. But the media is just not interested in doing that and that's why it is still a problem that you will occasionally read about in your "local" paper (usually with no mention of the seriousness of it as a widespread national problem).

Guess that's why this case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Kay_Letourneau) got so little media coverage, then. What a shame that there was nothing in the large daily papers or on television news, and no coverage at all in People magazine.

[Cleon]

There is a difference in reporting a teacher has been accused of sexual abuse in a isolated local news article and making a huge national media event of it as was done with the priest scandal for many months.

And you completely ignore the fact that a key aspect of the priest scandal was the fact that the Church routinely tried to silence victims and transferred pedophile priests them from parish to parish, giving them a pool of new victims.

If there was comparable conspiracy in public schools, you might have a point. As it is, there isn't and hasn't been, so you don't.

The reason the Catholic scandal received so much attention was because it was deserved. I am not exaggerating when I say that, unlike the public school system, the Church actively aided and abetted the abuse of children by these priests.

[DOC]

Had those parents practiced an effective method of contraception, there would be no children to have an opinion.But according to the poster the children were born. You're talking about "what if" situation whereas I was about the actual scenario the poster used.

[RobRoy]

I remember reading that a former president of the Mormon church said if God walked down the aisle he would appear to be no different than anyone else.

Hell, not just a "former president" but Joseph Smith himself: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's . . ." (D&C 130).

And don't you agree that God the Father in Mormonism has flesh and bone.

Let's review what I said just one more time for the fun of it, shall we:

Wrong, they believe that God exists in a physical form, and that He was once like us, but not that He was never human. The differences are subtle, but they are still there.[emphasis added]

What part of that is confusing to you? I really don't think you want to take me on in this regard. I've corrected your erroneous statements on LDS beliefs in the past.

[DOC]

And you completely ignore the fact that a key aspect of the priest scandal was the fact that the Church routinely tried to silence victims and transferred pedophile priests them from parish to parish, giving them a pool of new victims.

If there was comparable conspiracy in public schools, you might have a point. As it is, there isn't and hasn't been, so you don't.

The reason the Catholic scandal received so much attention was because it was deserved. I am not exaggerating when I say that, unlike the public school system, the Church actively aided and abetted the abuse of children by these priests.

And the same thing happens in our educational system but the media rarely reports it:

From the report :SEXUAL ABUSE IN SOCIAL CONTEXT: CATHOLIC CLERGY AND OTHER PROFESSIONALS by Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights

"One study concluded that more than 60 percent of employees accused of sexual abuse in the New York City schools were transferred to desk jobs at district offices located inside the schools. Most of these teachers are tenured and 40 percent of those transferred are repeat offenders. They call it “passing the garbage” in the schools. One reason why this exists is due to efforts by the United Federation of Teachers to protect teachers at the expense of children.[xxxi] Another is the fact that teachers accused of sexual misconduct cannot be fired under New York State law.[xxxii]
One of the nation’s foremost authorities on the subject of the sexual abuse of minors in public schools is Hofstra University professor Charol Shakeshaft. In 1994, Shakeshaft and Audrey Cohan did a study of 225 cases of educator sexual abuse in New York City. Their findings are astounding.
All of the accused admitted sexual abuse of a student, but none of the abusers was reported to the authorities, and only 1 percent lost their license to teach. Only 35 percent suffered negative consequences of any kind, and 39 percent chose to leave their school district, most with positive recommendations. Some were even given an early retirement package.

http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm

[Hokulele]

And the same thing happens in our educational system but the media rarely reports it:


Which, of course, makes the actions of the Catholic church acceptable. :rolleyes:

[RobRoy]

Which, of course, makes the actions of the Catholic church acceptable. :rolleyes:

Depends on if you're a Catholic or not.

[DOC]

What part of that is confusing to you? I really don't think you want to take me on in this regard. I've corrected your erroneous statements on LDS beliefs in the past.So according to Mormonism God the Father has flesh and bones but he was never human -- is that right?

[RobRoy]

So according to Mormonism God the Father has flesh and bones but he was never human -- is that right?

You betcha. Humans and God the Father are similar, but not the same.

[Cleon]

And the same thing happens in our educational system but the media rarely reports it:


And your source for this tidbit of info is Bill Donahue? No. Not buying it at all.

[Ron_Tomkins]

So, does being on my knees in front of my wife going "Oh, please?" count as praying before sex?

:D

That, and also having her tie your hands together and making you yell "OOohhh GOD!".

[DOC]

Which, of course, makes the actions of the Catholic church acceptable. :rolleyes:No it doesn't, which is why the pope sincerely apologized and made vast measures to correct the problem with priests (who by the way have the extra burden of taking a vow of celibacy unlike teachers)

[Cavemonster]

No it doesn't, which is why the pope sincerely apologized and made vast measures to correct the problem with priests (who by the way have the extra burden of taking a vow of celibacy unlike teachers)

Wait a minute.
Wait a *********** minute.

The "extra burden" of celibacy what? It makes the abuse more understandable? More forgivable?

Is that really something you're trying to say?
Are... are you actually a human being?

[linusrichard]

Another is the fact that teachers accused of sexual misconduct cannot be fired under New York State law.[xxxii]
I call shenanigans.



Also, does the Catholic League think tu quoque is rad just because it's in Latin?

[Hokulele]

No it doesn't, which is why the pope sincerely apologized and made vast measures to correct the problem with priests (who by the way have the extra burden of taking a vow of celibacy unlike teachers)


So those priests are oathbreakers as well as vile pederasts.

Nice.

[DOC]

So according to Mormonism God the Father has flesh and bones but he was never human -- is that right?

You betcha. Humans and God the Father are similar, but not the same.

So I repeat myself, the mainline Christian (Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans etc.) concept of God the Father as being Spirit (and not flesh and bone), and the Mormon concept of God is extremely different.

[DOC]

So those priests are oathbreakers as well as vile pederasts.

Nice.

So you believe those teachers who sexually abuse students aren't as bad because they didn't take a oath not to sexually abuse children? Maybe they should take an oath then. I doubt the teachers union or the ACLU would ever allow that to be done though.

[RobRoy]

So I repeat myself, the mainline Christian (Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans etc.) concept of God the Father as being Spirit (and not flesh and bone), and the Mormon concept of God is extremely different.

And I repeat myself: do you always have to caveat your criteria (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5070330&postcount=57) to exclude those you don't agree with in retrospect?

[Hokulele]

So you believe those teachers who sexually abuse students aren't as bad because they didn't take a oath not to sexually abuse children?


I believe you are attempting to change the subject (remember Rule 11?). The article in the OP is discussing Catholics, not schoolteachers. If you want to talk about schoolteachers, go start a thread in Social Issues.

[Redtail]

Ah I can see it now... The honeymoon...

Her: Our father who art in heaven
Hallowed be thy name.
Don't let him come
Before I'm done
And if it's not to much trouble
Make him at least... seven.
Give us much pleasure in this bed
We're married now
so I'm done with head
For thine art kingdom and the glory
I'll save the power for the batteries in my rabbit
Amen

Him:Yea as I enter the valley of moose knuckle
I do this only for procreation
My rod doth comfort me as my...
Cup?....
Runith over... I mean waaaaay over.
For the love of you why in the hell would you deny pre marital sex then have use go to schools with the girls wearing those uniforms!?!??! I mean look at the internet there are entire sites with days of porn just based on the uniforms! Oh Dude you remember Sharon? Why WHY would you put a rack like that on a girl put her in that uni and the say "Nope! nuh uh U canot haz!" I mean that stuff builds up over time and now.... Well I think every body here knows this is gonna be a 3 second rodeo... Oh crap did I say that out loud? I should get back to the... yeah...
Thank you god for... love and... um sex....
Amen.

Her: Who the **** is Sharon!?!??!

[joobz]

http://www.catholicleague.org/resear...al_context.htm (http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm)
WOW! that is by far one of the most dishonest reports I have ever read.

I started reading it and came across this statement:
Almost all the priests who abuse children are homosexuals.Dr. Thomas Plante, a psychologist at Santa Clara University, found that “80 to 90% of all priests who in fact abuse minors have sexually engaged with adolescent boys, not prepubescent children. Thus, the teenager is more at risk than the young altar boy or girls of any age.”[viii] (http://www.catholicleague.org/research/abuse_in_social_context.htm#_edn8)
This seemed to me to be a very serious allegation. but I was troubled because the argument seemed to be based upon the idea that "80-90% of those abused were adolescent boys". It was clear to me at this point that there may be some shenanigans going on. After all, it is quite clear that child abuse of boys by men is not more common in homosexual men.

So I went to the source of this claim and found this:

Fifth, a high proportion of homosexual priests do not increase the risks of sexual abuse of minors by priests. Sexual orientation does not predict illegal sexual abuse of children and minors in general. Homosexual men are not more likely to engage in illegal sexual behaviors with children and adolescents than heterosexual men.
http://www.psywww.com/psyrelig/plante.html

This data completely contradicts and refutes the claim that homosexual priests are the problem.

Nope, the problem isn't just the priests that did this, it was the larger institution that was more concerned about outward appearances than actually following the moral codes they preach. It's hypocrisy at it's worst. It's exactly why any claim of Moral superiority gained by religion is laughable.

The author of this piece wasn't interested in facts, but rather spin control. It's disgusting.

It is this same institution, the one that willfully refused to protect children from abusive "celibate" priests that claims to teach on how to have wholesome sex?
It is this same institution, who advocates a contraceptive policy which adds to the AIDS crisis around the world.

I would laugh if it wasn't so horrible.

[joobz]

He wasn't a mainline Christian ....
You had originally said "true christian" not "mainline christian".

but I agree, he isn't a christian at all.


ETA:
DOC, your continual use of highly flexible definitions of who is or isn't christian reminded me of this Einstein Quote:
"if relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German, and the Germans will call me a Jew."

[paximperium]

Saddest thread ever.

[X]

The author of this piece wasn't interested in facts, but rather spin control.


Are you implying that DOC would be interested in something other than spin?

Like, say, facts?

While Joobz and the other regulars may be aware of this, for the lurkers and newcomers: History shows otherwise...




The Catholic Church is detached from reality.

Really, that's all that need be said.

Unfortunately, it needs to be said a lot more often. Especially in those areas of the world where the Catholic Church has the authority to impose it's insane, idiotic, and dangerous doctrines on people.

[joobz]

Saddest thread ever.
it started out funny, but DOC's child molesting priests turned it.

[Minarvia]

Actually, the rhythm method is a form of family planning, allowing parents to space their children, since, on average, a couple who uses the method creates a pregnancy about once every two years. (Statistic remembered from an old job as a birth control counselor.)


Ahhh...I stand corrected. Thanks. I didn't know that. I only hear it in conversation as a method of birth control.

As for the rest of this thread about Roman Catholics, I don't really want to stray from the topic, but why is it that priests are focused on in the media, in what I see, but when a Protestant leader does such a thing no-one seems to think much of it? I know of a case or two but I'd have to look them up. It just seems that Catholics and teachers get all the crap and others don't.

I don't excuse the Catholics at all but I cannot help but wonder about all the other Christian sects who seem pretty immune to the bad press. :confused:

Anyway, carry on, all! An interesting, but very sad thread.

[bruto]

Saddest thread ever.Not since Redtail dropped in.

[wollery]

Another is the fact that teachers accused of sexual misconduct cannot be fired under New York State law.[xxxii]

I call shenanigans.I have no doubt it's true, because there are a huge number of false allegations of sexual abuse by students, it would be vastly unfair to fire a teacher who had been accused of sexual abuse by one individual student.

On the other hand, a teacher who is convicted of sexual abuse of a student......

[linusrichard]

I have no doubt it's true, because there are a huge number of false allegations of sexual abuse by students, it would be vastly unfair to fire a teacher who had been accused of sexual abuse by one individual student.

On the other hand, a teacher who is convicted of sexual abuse of a student......

..... is still a teacher who has been accused of sexual abuse of a student, and if the statement in question were true, could not be fired. Hence, the shenanigans.

It may be lazy language rather than outright lying, but it's still false.

[Cavemonster]

..... is still a teacher who has been accused of sexual abuse of a student, and if the statement in question were true, could not be fired. Hence, the shenanigans.

It may be lazy language rather than outright lying, but it's still false.

I think if they wanted it to be clear, they would have referenced the specific section of New York Law rather than a magazine article, it was pretty deliberate obfuscation.

The Catholic church lies to it's flock to save it's own neck, again and again and again, in ways that endanger people. People who remain Catholic have everything in common with people who remain with abusive spouses.

[Elizabeth I]

But according to the poster the children were born. You're talking about "what if" situation whereas I was about the actual scenario the poster used.

Nope, you did the same thing when you speculated (by implication) on what the feelings of the people in question would have been if their parents had used effective contraception.

Actually, the rhythm method is a form of family planning, allowing parents to space their children, since, on average, a couple who uses the method creates a pregnancy about once every two years. (Statistic remembered from an old job as a birth control counselor.)

Ahhh...I stand corrected. Thanks. I didn't know that. I only hear it in conversation as a method of birth control.

Well, to be fair, rhythm is often sold (dishonestly, in my opinion), as a method of birth control, but in practical application about all it can do is control how often the kiddies appear.

So I repeat myself, the mainline Christian (Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans etc.) concept of God the Father as being Spirit (and not flesh and bone), and the Mormon concept of God is extremely different.

Since they're all mythological, what difference does it make how they're described?

[RobRoy]

it started out funny, but DOC's child molesting priests turned it.

Isn't that always the case? A thread gets rolling along, and the child molesting priests ruin it for everyone.

[joobz]

Isn't that always the case? A thread gets rolling along, and the child molesting priests ruin it for everyone.
tell me about it!

BTW, I checked the link in your sig line and I can't believe I missed your April fool's post. I would have given you such a tounge lashing....and would have swallowed.

[RobRoy]

tell me about it!

BTW, I checked the link in your sig line and I can't believe I missed your April fool's post. I would have given you such a tounge lashing....and would have swallowed.

I really just LOL'd, not the fake one that I usually do. :D

An ego boost, even belated, is still appreciated. :cool:

[TimCallahan]

Okay, back to the prayers before sex: If it's done silently. the prayers go like this:

1) His: Oh God, let me last long enough so she comes first.

2) Hers: oh God, please make him go down on me.

[DOC]

The Catholic church lies to it's flock to save it's own neck, again and again and again, in ways that endanger people.So do US presidents -- I guess that is why Christ was so big on forgiveness and stated we should be forgiven 7 times 70 times. Of course you have to ask, and you have to be sincere, and make an attempt not to do your sin again. If you have a relapse and sin again you will be forgiven again, if you are again sincere in your request.

[joobz]

So do US presidents
That's the best you can do? The catholic church is only as moral as the US presidents? DO you really mean to imply that the Catholic church is as moral as Bill Clinton?

-- I guess that is why Christ was so big on forgiveness and stated we should be forgiven 7 times 70 times. Of course you have to ask, and you have to be sincere, and make an attempt not to do your sin again. If you have a relapse and sin again you will be forgiven again, if you are again sincere in your request.
But the Church choose to save it's own reputation than the children of the congregation. Only after, when it was made public and it was shown without a doubt that there was a conspiracy to hide the problem, did the church apologize.

Like my friend's mom used to say to us, "You aren't sorry. You're only sorry you were caught!"

[paximperium]

So do US presidents -- I guess that is why Christ was so big on forgiveness and stated we should be forgiven 7 times 70 times. Of course you have to ask, and you have to be sincere, and make an attempt not to do your sin again. If you have a relapse and sin again you will be forgiven again, if you are again sincere in your request.
No. I will not forgive an abuser of children and the parties that tried to cover it up. Your pathetic morality of absolving responsibility because of "sincerety" is unjust and evil.

[bruto]

So do US presidents -- I guess that is why Christ was so big on forgiveness and stated we should be forgiven 7 times 70 times. Of course you have to ask, and you have to be sincere, and make an attempt not to do your sin again. If you have a relapse and sin again you will be forgiven again, if you are again sincere in your request.The Church certainly lives up to the challenge when its own officers sin against others. The Church has a less than stellar record of forgiving sins against itself, though.

[Mojo]

So do US presidents -- I guess that is why Christ was so big on forgiveness and stated we should be forgiven 7 times 70 times. Of course you have to ask, and you have to be sincere, and make an attempt not to do your sin again. If you have a relapse and sin again you will be forgiven again, if you are again sincere in your request.
No. I will not forgive an abuser of children and the parties that tried to cover it up. Your pathetic morality of absolving responsibility because of "sincerety" is unjust and evil.
The Church certainly lives up to the challenge when its own officers sin against others. The Church has a less than stellar record of forgiving sins against itself, though.


I remember a sketch on the radio (Stephen Fry, I think) about the "Church of Perpetual Repentance". In order to be able to repent, they had to keep sinning. It finished with the minister kicking the **** out of the interviewer, shouting "I repent" after each blow.

[six7s]

So do US presidentsThese are the same people you (mis)use in your eternally fallacious arguments from authority in the '(complete and utter absence of) Evidence for why we know the New Testament writers told the truth (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5277578#post5277578)' thread, right?

:dl:

I guess that is why Christ was so big on forgiveness and stated we should be forgiven 7 times 70 times. Is that 'Give us this day our daily head and I'll owe you one'?

[RandFan]

This Catholic group says couples should pray before having sex. I realize there will probably be some callow comments in this thread, but so be it I guess.Ya think? Sorry I'm late to the party but sweet Jesus what a stupid thing. What is the point of prayer? Since there is no known mechanism (magic isn't a known mechanism) then it's just superstition if the point is for prayer to do something other than meditation or communication. If that's all it is then why not forgo the appeal to an invisible friend?

[Darth Rotor]

As an atheist married to a Catholic, I prefer to have my partner call on the Lord during sex.
+1 for passionate piety
Anything to get a girl on her knees.
Or a man to say Grace before he dines ...
If you were specific enough in asking forgiveness for what you were about to do, in roughly chronological order perhaps, it could be kind of sexy. :)
+1 for subtle foreplay technique
Assuming that one actually wants to stay a couple with one's partner for a long time, that's actually a rather nice thought. With or without the involvement of a deity.

Can't find a ref in Scripture to Three Ways, so I'll second this.
Does the author advocate group prayer as well?
Putting the Hole into Holy Communion ... I are going to burn for that one.
So, does being on my knees in front of my wife going "Oh, please?" count as praying before sex?
Depends upon what is muffling your words ...
Good head, good teat
Good God, let's secrete
At TAM, formally apply for officially making this The Amazing Grace.
You betcha. Humans and God the Father are similar, but not the same.
Palin isn't a Mormon.
***teh funny*** culminated with

Her: Who the **** is Sharon!?!??!
Cackle
Is that 'Give us this day our daily head and I'll owe you one'?
I see you prefer Psalm 68.

DR

[Red3]

Who cares what they say? Why post this?

[Hux]

Palin isn't a Mormon.

You can't spell moron.

[Hux]

Actually thinking about it all, it might not be a bad idea. praying at either side of the bed would dissipate an awkward moment of worry as to when to put the condom on - and your partnere would just think you were being pious.

[Darth Rotor]

This.

The Catholic Church's position on birth control is indefensible.
Not indefensible. No.

It is defensible within the very rational context of the Church having, in its own self interest, the policy aimed at the increase in the number of Catholics born and raised within the Catholic Church.

Since you are on the outside, looking in, you have chosen an arbitrary stand on the wisdom, or foolishness, of that policy.

Me, I think the Pope and his good buds are failing to be practical in adhering to the policy. Given who and what the Church is, in particular its heirarchy (a load of male virgins, most of them, if they even modestly adhere to doctrine) this policy is made from a very myopic PoV. Be that as it may, it is entirely consistent within the general principles of the Church and its teachings on sex. Those teachings include monogamy and general abstinence until formal bonding. (You and I can guess at how often those principles are adhered to, anywhere, Africa not being a particularly special case here).

Another contribution to the Africa AIDS problem (and STD's anywhere on the planet), other than condom usage not being common enough, is multiple partner sex, and non-monogamy. Such habits are contra the policies of the Church. Were they followed, there would be less risky sexual habits, and thus less risk of AIDS.

That still leaves the unprotected sex risk management issue. It is my opinion that the Pope's rigid adherence to principle on this matter is unhelpful, and counterproductive. The bottom line is people's actual decisions and behaviors, which the Pope can't control.

Your guess is as good as mine regarding how many people actually follow doctrine and policy in sexual matters. Availability of condoms, and cost, are non trivial where incomes are as depressed as they are in some parts of Africa. For me, availability of condoms is trivial, as is cost.

But I think the Pope ought to clue up.

As the old Italian grandmother shouted to the Pope, from St Peter's square, when he came out against the Pill:

"Papa, you no play-a the game, you no make-a the rules!"

DR

[Darth Rotor]

You can't spell moron.

False, Tricky infracted me for calling Peephole one. ;)

[wuschel]

What is the point of prayer?
It's all about the second coming.

[Hux]

It's all about the second coming.

In which case some of us find ourselves on a wing and a prayer.

[qayak]

I think catholics pray before sex for different reasons. Catholic women pray that their husbands won't get suspicious about where she learned all those kinky things and that their husbands won't be bumbling idiots in bed.

Catholic men on the other hand, pray that their wives won't notice that they are completely inept in bed and that they won't ejaculate as soon as their wives get undressed.

In the end though, it doesn't matter. The husbands will be too insecure to say anything about their wife's experience and the wives will pretend not to notice their husbands' premature ejaculation and complete ineptitude.

He will think about the pope to control his excitement and she will dream about the atheist who rocked her world! :D :D

[RandFan]

It's all about the second coming.Got it. I consider that a worthy goal. It has only happened a handful of times in my life. Perhaps I'll try prayer. It can't be any worse advice than substituting bacon grease for KY Jelly.

[Robin]

This Catholic group says couples should pray before having sex. I realize there will probably be some callow comments in this thread, but so be it I guess.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1210519/Never-mind-pillow-talk-couples-told-Roman-Catholic-church-PRAY-sex.html
For what we are about to receive - Lord make us truly thankful.

[Hux]

Got it. I consider that a worthy goal. It has only happened a handful of times in my life. Perhaps I'll try prayer. It can't be any worse advice than substituting bacon grease for KY Jelly.

Not a good idea if you wish to hump a Muslim or a Jew.

[kmortis]

Got it. I consider that a worthy goal. It has only happened a handful of times in my life. Perhaps I'll try prayer. It can't be any worse advice than substituting bacon grease for KY Jelly.

Not a good idea if you wish to hump a Muslim or a Jew.
Yet better than substituting super glue.


TRUST me on that one.

[Cainkane1]

I used to do that. I prayed for and during and after sex. Lord please let the IUD work etc.

[kmortis]

I used to do that. I prayed for and during and after sex. Lord please let the IUD work etc.
So, how are your kids these days?

[bruto]

Yet better than substituting super glue.


TRUST me on that one.Reminds me of that old joke about the young couple who didn't know the difference between vaseline and putty.All their windows fell out.

[six7s]

Of course you have to ask, and you have to be sincere, and make an attempt not to do your sin again. If you have a relapse and sin again you will be forgiven again, if you are again sincere in your request.Is this an excuse for your obsessive compulsion to start and/or spam so many threads with what is, essentially, the same inane, delusional, illogical nonsense that has been comprehensively, concisely and coherently debunked each and every time you post?

[kmortis]

Is this an excuse for your obsessive compulsion to start and/or spam so many threads with what is, essentially, the same inane, delusional, illogical nonsense that has been comprehensively, concisely and coherently debunked each and every time you post?

Ya gotta give him consistancy.

[six7s]

Ya gotta give him consistancy.The marks have been finalised

Well, just for the record, you are the one who revived this thread.Ten out of ten for observation

Minus several gazillion for relevance

The entire Western Hemisphere (including Native Americans) are now enjoying peace because of the dangerous voyages of the quasi-Christian explorers.I knew you were talking bollocks

When I think of the Western Hemisphere I think of North, South, and Central America.Thank you

Now we know how big those bollocks areConsistency of this nature scores no points

[Taffer]

So I repeat myself, the mainline Christian (Catholics, Baptists, Lutherans etc.) concept of God the Father as being Spirit (and not flesh and bone), and the Mormon concept of God is extremely different.

Why is a different concept of your god wrong?

[RobRoy]

Why is a different concept of your god wrong?

You question seems legitimate, so I’ll forego the “are you serious” mock shock and awe and just dive right in. Consider this: you have a concept of god(s) and what s/he/they want from you, and how you’re supposed to live your life, and what the end point of all that god-living-belief will gain you, your family, your friends, etc. Now, someone comes along and says, “No, no, no. You’ve got god(s) all wrong,” that’s not just shocking, that’s scary. And humans when they’re scared, usually turn to the fight-or-flight instinct. With religion, that fear easily becomes anger, Because you’ve lived your life one way, following the precepts of your god(s) and doing what god(s) wanted all along. Not only is this individual telling you that you’re wrong, s/he is telling you that the manner in which you live your life, the way in which you perceive yourself, your place in the universe, and that of your friends and family is incorrect.

Religion isn’t like science, or culture, or any number of other things, because it is absolute. Each religious faith claims to have the corner market on truth. Because of the social and cultural reinforcement of that belief in absolute truth, any claims to the contrary, even on minor points, are viewed as a rejection of the whole. The nature of god(s) is wholly as a spirit-manifestation, or wholly as a being of matter, or some combination between is hardly a minor point. Challenging that concept triggers that fear-to-anger response.

The reverse of this is also true. How do you know that your absolute religious world-view is correct? Because others reinforced that view. How do you know that someone else’s absolute religious world-view is incorrect? Because they are wrong about the nature of god(s) as a being of spirit. How do we know we’re right? Because the cornerstone of our religious world-view tells us this is true.

Attacking that, no matter what the intentions, almost always results in the same response: We’re right, you’re wrong. In the case of Christians, the bonus of being right equates to achieving Heaven, and the downfall of being wrong equates to Hell. Papists are damned to Hell for following the Pope. Protestants are damned to Hell for rejecting the Papal teachings. Of course, the list degenerates into minuscule arguments from there, all because each religion claims to have the corner market on life, the universe and everything.

Which is exactly why I’ve never been a very religious person. I want to believe in a kind, loving, compassionate, benevolent god who has a plan, and an end result that is fair and rewarding for all of us who live reasonably good and decent lives. I have no idea if this is even remotely true, but I’d really, really, really like it to be true. The alternative, for me, is quite frightening, and I have no problem admitting that. The concept that there might be God, and thus no plan, no fair and just reward in an afterlife shakes me right down to my core being. Intellectually, I understand that if this is the case, moving from life to death will simply result in non-awareness. I won’t be around to scream in horror at there being no afterlife. But beyond my intellect, it’s that loss of a lifetime of experiences and knowledge and deeds that seems meaningless and so very, very, very frightening.

So yeah, having the right concept of god(s) is critical to any religious belief system. Challenging that, results in hundreds of thousands of posts of “Yes it is” and “No it isn’t” because the alternative of , “We might all wrong” is too scary to consider, and for some too difficult to grasp. It’s much easier to rest comfortably in the sheltered harbor of a social and culture religious belief handed down over generations, than to strike out into a potentially raging sea of doubt and insecurity.

[Taffer]

RobRoy:
A very well written post. Thank you for taking the time to write it. To show appreciation, I have nominated it.

I see what your saying, and I accept what you say is true. I should explain: I was not born to a religious family. I have never believed in God. My mother and father are atheists. My brothers similarly. I was never exposed to that 'lifestyle', if you will, until much later in life. I was raised to be scientific, logical and skeptical. I was taught the value of reason and critical thinking, and above all, to form my own conclusions based on these principals. My parents never forbade religion; I was told once that I could believe in God if I liked, they didn't mind. But I didn't, and I dont, and over the years my logical, metaphysical and philosophical reasons have become very specific and exact. I could, if I cared to take the time, express my reasons for my world-view very carefully and sprcifically. It is just the way I am.

Given this, it is literally unfathomable why someone can claim their religion is correct, and all others are wrojg, based on the weak reasoning which I see time and time again. So, I confess, every time I ask such a question as above, I go away shaking my head. I know the reason, but I cannot understand it. And thus, I still ask it, for better or worse.

[RobRoy]

RobRoy:
A very well written post. Thank you for taking the time to write it. To show appreciation, I have nominated it.

Hey, thanks!

What do I owe ya?

I see what your saying, and I accept what you say is true. I should explain: I was not born to a religious family. [snip]

I’d say you’re lucky, but I’m not certain. It is who you are, a product of your upbringing (and whatever other outside forces).

Given this, it is literally unfathomable why someone can claim their religion is correct, and all others are wrojg, based on the weak reasoning which I see time and time again. So, I confess, every time I ask such a question as above, I go away shaking my head. I know the reason, but I cannot understand it. And thus, I still ask it, for better or worse.

Well, I’ll to help, but I’m not certain I can. Try putting it in terms of your own world-view. Consider taking the time to express it, and then have someone come along and say you’re utterly and completely wrong, and now you have to be punished for believing that way. Pilloried and beaten and mocked by passersby. What would your reaction be?

[Taffer]

Hey, thanks!

What do I owe ya?


Your undying love and affection? :D

I’d say you’re lucky, but I’m not certain. It is who you are, a product of your upbringing (and whatever other outside forces).

I don't consider myself lucky or unlucky. I am just what I am, as you say.

Well, I’ll to help, but I’m not certain I can. Try putting it in terms of your own world-view. Consider taking the time to express it, and then have someone come along and say you’re utterly and completely wrong, and now you have to be punished for believing that way. Pilloried and beaten and mocked by passersby. What would your reaction be?

Depends. If they can demonstrate, factually, scientifically and empirically, why I am wrong and I should be punished, then I would accept it. If they just told me "you're wrong because I said so, and now we're going to stone you", I would be understandably upset.

[RobRoy]

Your undying love and affection? :D

I’ll try, but my love is a fickle thing.

Quote]I don't consider myself lucky or unlucky. I am just what I am, as you say.[/quote]

Yeah, that was my observation. Initially I was thinking how great it would be to be raised by parents who didn’t adhere to a strict set of religious convictions, and allowed you to make your own way. But we’re all mosaics of our upbringing and past experiences. I wouldn’t be who I am if my parents weren’t who they were, and I like who I am.

Depends. If they can demonstrate, factually, scientifically and empirically, why I am wrong and I should be punished, then I would accept it. If they just told me "you're wrong because I said so, and now we're going to stone you", I would be understandably upset.

The latter was where I was going. There is no evidence to support the convictions of your persecutors. They simply believe what they believe, and since you don’t, your beliefs are rejected out of hand and you’re punished for holding them.

Although, even in the former, I don’t see any legitimate reason (unless you punished others) why you should accept punishment simply because you held a different world-view. But punishment for a different world-view is exactly why there has been, and continues to be, so much strife, especially when it comes to religion.

[Taffer]

The latter was where I was going. There is no evidence to support the convictions of your persecutors. They simply believe what they believe, and since you don’t, your beliefs are rejected out of hand and you’re punished for holding them.

Yes, that is very irritating.

Although, even in the former, I don’t see any legitimate reason (unless you punished others) why you should accept punishment simply because you held a different world-view. But punishment for a different world-view is exactly why there has been, and continues to be, so much strife, especially when it comes to religion.

Well, if they could demonstrate why I was wrong, and why I should be punished for it, then yeah, I'd be fine with it. But they would have to demonstrate why I should be punished first.

[RobRoy]

Yes, that is very irritating.

Well, I’m glad that we got you to irritated. I’d go for steaming-spitting-righteous-anger, but then I’m my heritages is Scottish. :D

Well, if they could demonstrate why I was wrong, and why I should be punished for it, then yeah, I'd be fine with it. But they would have to demonstrate why I should be punished first.

Nopers, no demonstration. They just tell you that you’re wrong. They might quote some local book of wisdom that has no external support. But that’s it.

I think you can see now why a different concept of god is considered wrong by one flavor of religion over another, and also why it can be a big deal. Intellectually, logically, it doesn’t make sense and really shouldn’t matter. But we humans don’t operate on intellect and logic alone. In fact, to some, they’re foreign languages.

[TheKiwiSkeptic]

This is just like those Louisiana lawmakers saying that everyone should pray for God to fix the oil spill. Except that this Catholic group isn't expecting God to supply some magical contraception so that no one ends up pregnant. To me though, it's always funny when you see that some people have enough faith - and balls - to come out and say something like this. :D

[RobRoy]

This is just like those Louisiana lawmakers saying that everyone should pray for God to fix the oil spill. Except that this Catholic group isn't expecting God to supply some magical contraception so that no one ends up pregnant. To me though, it's always funny when you see that some people have enough faith - and balls - to come out and say something like this. :D

I guess I don't get the joke. :confused:

[RSLancastr]

The Catholic church doesn't believe in birth control except I believe the rhythm method is allowed.

Q: What do you call Catholic women who use the rhythm method?
A: Mothers.

[Xephyr]

*kneels next to bedside*

"Dear lord, let me have a mind-blowing orgasm. Amen."

:eusa_pray:

[kmortis]

*kneels next to bedside*

"Dear lord, let me have a mind-blowing orgasm. Amen."

:eusa_pray:
Just hope this isn't one of those negative corrolation prayers....:p