Partners and religious beliefs

[sparklecat]

How important do you think it is that a person and their partner, whether dating or married, have common religious beliefs?

If not common, how compatible do you think they need to be? Obviously, a YEC fundy and a strong atheist probably aren't going to get along too well, but with two less fundamental people, do you see it working?


(Oh, and guys: don't think this means I'll date you now if you say its not important :p)

[TruthSeeker]

I refer you to this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31727).

Update: he has decided to move out, probably on Christmas day while I visit with my family.

[Wudang]

Truthseeker :rub:

"this above else, to thine own self be true".

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by Wudang
Truthseeker :rub:

"this above else, to thine own self be true".


Thank you. I'm fine but sad. Working helps. Packing his crap helps :D Putting up Christmas decorations helps:D

Anyway, this thread must not become about me. The JREF forum is my escape...so please...carry on. :)

[sparklecat]

*hugs truthseeker*

Maybe burning some of it would help too? :D

But thanks for the link... it really does depend on how strongly both people hold their positions and think it important I suppose.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by sparklecat
*hugs truthseeker*

Maybe burning some of it would help too? :D

But thanks for the link... it really does depend on how strongly both people hold their positions and think it important I suppose.


Thanks...it is cool tonight..a fire might be nice!

Stubborness plays a part, I think. Also, the need to be accepted as one is by one's partner.

Are you asking because of a personal situation? be careful.

[sparklecat]

Oh, definitely. I could never ask someone to change their beliefs for me, as that would be dishonest for them. I figure that if its enough of a problem that I won't marry someone outside my belief system, I should just be up-front about it.

No, no personal situation. More evaluating future options ;)

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by sparklecat


No, no personal situation. More evaluating future options ;)


That's exciting! I'll cross my fingers for you.

[geni]

I have seen relationships cross religious devides but genrely one of the people involved has a very librel faith. In the end it boils down to how many dissagrements are you preparded to have.

[Wudang]

"This above all else, to thine own self be true" Desiderata
"to give herself, she's got to be her self" Lennon

A word that is so often misused "compromise". It doesn't mean surrender or selling out, it means "agreement attained by mutual concession". You both give a bit. You respect why the other person thinks/feels as they do and expect the same in return. And to be able to discuss issues in a calm reasonable manner. In the end though, it comes down to the relationship, like "what do you want for dinner?". There are things you want, things you need(e.g. food) , things that you need enough of (e.g. niacin), and so on. There's the diet you want and the diet you can have and the reasonable compromises that still leave you reasonably satisfied at the end of dinner.
Or you can be a fashion model or a lardbelly. Like Mason said to Dixon "It's where you draw the line that matters"

[daenku32]

I'm in a relationship like that. I'm pretty hard case atheist, and she is a person who only misses church on sunday because she is too busy taking care of the kids.

I think the question is how secular the religious beliefs are.

She hasn't made any demand for me to accept Christ, even though she would probably be happy if I did.

I'd say, if a person requires a certain religious belief from you, then you have the permission to fool that person into thinking you will convert, and then raise the kids in your original religion behind the person's back.

[Chanileslie]

I can't speak for others, but for myself, it was very important to me when choosing my current partner that he be at least an agnostic, preferrably an atheist.

Mainly because I don't think a relationship with a believer would work for me because I would constantly be rolling my eyes at what I see as absurdity and that person would come to know that I had no respect from him or his beliefs, and that would be very destructive to our relationship. I would soon become condesending. I know me.

Not to mention, I would not want my children indoctrinated in a religion or religious belief, and that would be a forestalling point to me.

I must respect my partner, and I could have no respect for a religious person.

I feel that it is very important in a relationship that people have common ground. I can't see a relationship working with someone that I had nothing or little in common with.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Chanileslie
I must respect my partner, and I could have no respect for a religious person.



Woah! That's a tad harsh....

Maybe it's because my parents, extended family, several friends, former professors, and solid co-workers are religious to varying degrees, but I find I have to respect people regardless of their relgious beliefs (barring zelotry, born-againness, and scientologist) because I already respect so many people who happen to be religious.

This strikes me as slightly....biggoted. Perhaps I'm mis-interpreting.

I will however say I would find it difficult to contemplate marriage with a deeply religious person because in that instance religiion plays such a large part of your personal life, as has been mentioned above.

It doesn't matter what my office manager thinks about religion because it doesn't come into play, and he's a good office manager regardless.

It matters what my (hypothetical) wife does on Sunday mornings.

As a sidenote...

So I know this woman who is head of Jewish organization in the city here. Her husband was a rabbi. Apparently her husband had no problems with inter-faith marriages and performed a marriage of a Jewish man and a non-Jewish woman.

Fine, and dandy.

This woman (the wife of the rabbi) get so incensed that he performed this marriage that she divorces her own husband!

Now that's freaky. Talk about letting religion get in the way.

[Correa Neto]

My wife is catholic (OK, not to the point of attending to the church every sunday) and I am an agnostic. We married at the church (I still think it was a waste of money- rent a church and a priest). But the families would not agree with anything else.

We´ve been getting along pretty well about this for nearly 10 years. We had just one or two serious fights about this. We have more serious issues to fight with each other about then religion. Bills, money (the lack of it), furniture, etc.

[darling]

Originally posted by sparklecat
How important do you think it is that a person and their partner, whether dating or married, have common religious beliefs? *shrug*

I'm pretty much an atheist, my bride is a (liberal) Christian. Actually, I think she's more of a Christianity-preferant deist.

Other than that, we have more or less the same outlook on life, arts, politics, stuff. I can deal with the religious differences - it's not like either of us are dogmatic or anything.

Maybe if we have kids it might become an issue, but I figure we'll work something out.



(Oh, and guys: don't think this means I'll date you now if you say its not important :p) That's OK, I was figuring you wouldn't date me 'cause of the whole already-married thing...

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Andonyx


Woah! That's a tad harsh....

Maybe it's because my parents, extended family, several friends, former professors, and solid co-workers are religious to varying degrees, but I find I have to respect people regardless of their relgious beliefs (barring zelotry, born-againness, and scientologist) because I already respect so many people who happen to be religious.

This strikes me as slightly....biggoted. Perhaps I'm mis-interpreting.

I will however say I would find it difficult to contemplate marriage with a deeply religious person because in that instance religiion plays such a large part of your personal life, as has been mentioned above.

It doesn't matter what my office manager thinks about religion because it doesn't come into play, and he's a good office manager regardless.

It matters what my (hypothetical) wife does on Sunday mornings.
[snip]



I don't think it is harsh; it is a fact. I just know that living in intimate conditions such as in a long term committed relationship, that eventually my total and complete disdain for believing in something without evidence to support it would spill over into all aspects of our life.

Do I respect people who I am not in an intimate relationship and are believers? I may respect some of their actions, but I always have a niggling thought in the back of my head, "Yeah, but he/she believes....." A good example of this is Jimmy Carter, I respect the work he has done after leaving the presidency. I don't agree or respect his religious beliefs, and in the back of my mind despite my respect for the man is the thought, "If only he didn't believe in that bunch of hooey." I feel the same way about my sister; she is smart, caring, a good mother, hardworking and very good with finances and that I admire, but I still think, "But she believes that crap." I don't respect her belief system, but we don't discuss it either, and I don't live in close contact with her so it does not cross over into our relationship as it would with my spouse with whom I have a great deal of daily contact with.

Is it bigotted? I don't think so. Anymore than your side note about "barring this or that." I see no difference but in degrees between your statement and mine. Do I think that people who are believers should be banned from taking part in society or treated like second class citizens? No, I could care less what people believe or don't believe as long as it doesn't affect me and they aren't trying to force it on me. Now, it would be bigotted if I felt that people who maintained absurd belief's should be banned from jobs, restaurants, driving, voting, etc. or that religion should be banned. I do not feel this way. I just don't want that person as an intimate part of my life or as my partner in life.

BTW, my respect, unlike my feelings of amiability towards a person, is not gift, it is something that must be earned through actions, and I can think of very few people who have it although I like most people I know. My spouse happens to be one of the few who has both my respect and my feelings of amiability.

[frisian]

Originally posted by budddyh
That's OK, I was figuring you wouldn't date me 'cause of the whole already-married thing...

Well hello Budddyh.

[Andonyx]

Originally posted by Chanileslie


I don't think it is harsh; it is a fact. I just know that living in intimate conditions such as in a long term committed relationship, that eventually my total and complete disdain for believing in something without evidence to support it would spill over into all aspects of our life.

This I can agree with. I think it depends on the circumstance and proximity as to what degree I can accept almost any difference, down to ice cream flavor.


Do I respect people who I am not in an intimate relationship and are believers? I may respect some of their actions, but I always have a niggling thought in the back of my head, "Yeah, but he/she believes....." A good example of this is Jimmy Carter, I respect the work he has done after leaving the presidency.

Here I disagree. While my respect must also be earned. I am not hardened gaainst someone by their beliefs. People start at zero with me regardless, not at a negative number because they happen to be religious. And my respect is judged on the sum total of the person, and their actions. There are no automatic DQs for belief. I can respect Carter because of the magnanimity of his actions and what's in his head (or heart, heh heh) does not detract enough form that to make me disrespect him.



Is it bigotted? I don't think so. Anymore than your side note about "barring this or that." I see no difference but in degrees between your statement and mine.

This is a fair criticism to which I really don't have a good answer other than to say, I also have my predjudices.

Ultimately what bothers me about the presumptive position is that let's say, hypothetically you and I were friends. If at some point you met my brother, or my parents, or my close friends. Based on your own position I would know that even if they were fantastic people, even if they did their best to respect your position and beliefs and even if they were very important in my life, and their actions were beyond reproach they would never have your respect because they hold a modicum of relgious belief.

Not only do I find that somewhat offensive, (were we friends), but I find it illogical.

[Silicon]

My wife and I generally don't discuss religion. We have pretty equal distain for organized churchgoing though.

But on the subject of conflicting belief systems, she's a vegetarian for animal cruelty reasons, and I'm a meat-lover for tasty tasty goodness reasons.

When we first started dating, we didn't discuss those differences, because we knew it was an argument that neither could "win" without losing the other. After awhile I put away the need to be "right" on that issue, as did she. We sometimes both eat the same vegetarian meal, and sometimes I'll have meat with my dinner. Sometimes we eat totally different dinners. It's become just a dietary difference, as if it were a medical need, not a moral right and wrong. She buys me meat at the market, and sometimes cooks it for me (if it's not too gross!).


We've been together about 12 years now. It's really a non-issue.

Respect for the other person's view was the issue. That's all that was required.

[hgc]

Originally posted by Silicon
...
and sometimes cooks it for me (if it's not too gross!).
... Probably takes a little taste too. wink, wink, say no more, say no more. ;)

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Andonyx


This I can agree with. I think it depends on the circumstance and proximity as to what degree I can accept almost any difference, down to ice cream flavor.


Here I disagree. While my respect must also be earned. I am not hardened gaainst someone by their beliefs. People start at zero with me regardless, not at a negative number because they happen to be religious. And my respect is judged on the sum total of the person, and their actions. There are no automatic DQs for belief. I can respect Carter because of the magnanimity of his actions and what's in his head (or heart, heh heh) does not detract enough form that to make me disrespect him.


[/B]

This is a fair criticism to which I really don't have a good answer other than to say, I also have my predjudices.

Ultimately what bothers me about the presumptive position is that let's say, hypothetically you and I were friends. If at some point you met my brother, or my parents, or my close friends. Based on your own position I would know that even if they were fantastic people, even if they did their best to respect your position and beliefs and even if they were very important in my life, and their actions were beyond reproach they would never have your respect because they hold a modicum of relgious belief.

Not only do I find that somewhat offensive, (were we friends), but I find it illogical. [/B]

I think you misunderstand me. I would not dislike them nor am I hardened against them because of their beliefs, and I would judge those people on their actions and treat them accordingly. Yes, I can respect the actions of the people who are believers; hence the Jimmy Carter and my sister examples, and I can provide yet another example: I have a very good friend who is a devote Jehovas Witness - she has my respect, but she has earned it over time by being a very sweet and wonderful person, but I do not in anyway, shape or form have any respect for her belief system, so we don't discuss those issues.

And once again, I reiterate, respect is something that is earned in my book, and if you earn it then you earn it regardless of your beliefs, but I will never look at unsubstantiated beliefs as a reasonable or rational choice. I have a hard time respecting anyone's belief system when it has no merit other than they want to believe.

And as I said before, my mate I hold to higher standard because I spend so much time with him, and if I didn't respect his beliefs, It would spoil our relationship eventually because my home is supposed to be the one place I can be unrestrainably myself, and I would not hold back how silly that persons beliefs are, and eventually that attitude would bleed over into everything. In social situations, I usually restrain myself from pointing out the short comings of others belief systems. In fact, I try very hard to avoid discussion of religion altogether out of respect for others, but I will not keep my mouth shut if they won't have the same respect for me, but even then, I am usually very nice and state, I am not a believer and try to move to a different subject.

Just as many religious people pray that I, the non-believer, find god, I hope they will eventually find rationality, but it is not my place nor my desire to force that on anyone. Believe as one will especially if it brings one happiness or fulfillment.

I am sorry you are offended by that, but I will not lie to myself about who I am, and I am biased about this (not bigotted as you suggested), but I try not to reflect that into my daily life too much. It sounds as if you are taking this too personally; I am very sure your family members are great people.

[Andonyx]

Okay before, you never differentiated between respecting their beliefs, and respecting the person.

You said that you could respect their actions, but not the actual person, You didn't say you could'nt respect their beliefs.

Once you make that distinction I'm all fine with it.

I think religious belief is cukoo, and if my religious friends ask I tell them that.

But the fact that they let me express that opinion is one of the reasons I respect them as people.

I think it is all just a mis-understanding then.

[Chanileslie]

Originally posted by Andonyx
Okay before, you never differentiated between respecting their beliefs, and respecting the person.

You said that you could respect their actions, but not the actual person, You didn't say you could'nt respect their beliefs.

Once you make that distinction I'm all fine with it.

I think religious belief is cukoo, and if my religious friends ask I tell them that.

But the fact that they let me express that opinion is one of the reasons I respect them as people.

I think it is all just a mis-understanding then.

I think we agree on it being a misunderstanding. I asked Nyarlathotep to take a look to see if I wasn't explaining myself clearly. It happens.

[Loki]

sparklecat,

I think kids make a huge difference - mostly because so many christian flavours insist on childhood entrapment ... er, I mean education. I've seen couples we know placed under mucho pressure (especially from the grandparents) once kids arrive. The incentive to baptise is strong, even if only to stop the nagging.

For what it's worth, my wife is sort of a vague deist I guess, which is only one step from an atheist anyway - so it's never really been a issue with us.

[LFTKBS]

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I refer you to this thread (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31727).

Update: he has decided to move out, probably on Christmas day while I visit with my family.

TS - to hell with that idiot.

And I apologize in advance for this: even though you may have cared for him (or still do), he sucks and he is a bad person. What a sh!tty, manipulative, awful, inexcusable, blackmailish bunch of garbage. Besides, even if you converted, itwouldn't automagically make your kids Jewish. Oh, when you convert to Judaism, that actually changes your DNA! Fiddle-dee-dee!

[BroodingSkill]

How important do you think it is that a person and their partner, whether dating or married, have common religious beliefs?

Well, I've been exchanging emails with a woman, who approached me on a internet dating service I'm on. She says she's a christian, I'm a hard atheist. Given that, I really don't care what the other person believes, unless it ends up causing some sort of personal harm or serious financial hardship. Now as to what happens when she finds out I'm an atheist, well let's say I'm prepared for things to end on the spot, if they don't then I'm fine with it, of course.

[TruthSeeker]

Originally posted by LFTKBS


TS - to hell with that idiot.

And I apologize in advance for this: even though you may have cared for him (or still do), he sucks and he is a bad person. What a sh!tty, manipulative, awful, inexcusable, blackmailish bunch of garbage. Besides, even if you converted, itwouldn't automagically make your kids Jewish. Oh, when you convert to Judaism, that actually changes your DNA! Fiddle-dee-dee!


Thanks.

He is a good man. He does admirable work. He is smart and funny. But on this issue, he's a jerk or a bigot or whatever....

Anyway, life goes on and I will love again ;)