Alpha course saboteur

[Luciferlite]

Hi, I've been a lurker on this forum for a while but not generally inclined to post and have been passively involved in the atheist/skeptical movement for several years. I feel that it is about time I did something about these issues rather than just getting involved in pointless debates with people who are unlikely to change their minds.

A friend and I were thinking of trying some practical atheism by joining an alpha course in order to ask difficult questions and maybe plant a few seed of doubt amongst the agnostics. I'm not planning on starting blazing rows, I would be pretending to be a hopeful agnostic who saw the value of the church as a community but had problems with blind faith and I feel this would give me license to ask questions that they would not have satisfactory answers for.

I was interested to know if people on this forum would think this is a good idea, or am I being needlessly confrontational. I am also interested to know if anyone has any ideas or resources that may help me.

thanks

[arthwollipot]

I can't see any circumstance where that would not be a complete disaster for all concerned.

Best case scenario, you get chucked out.

Sorry to be a bit hard on your first post. Welcome to the forums!

[Fiona]

Did you see Jon Ronson's programme about it? I thought that was quite helpful in showing what the course is like. From what I saw it seems to be quite cult like and therefore a rational strategy, such as you propose, may not be effective.

[Luciferlite]

Fair enough, I'm pretty good at making people like me and appearing unthreatening. I am unconfrontational and well mannered so if they threw me out it should make them look bad and perhaps make a few of the agnostics think twice, especially if they failed to give a plausible answer to my questions. I have a well worked out back story and feel well prepared to last long enough to plant a few seeds of doubt. I'm not expecting too much but it should be fun, am I being hopelessly optimistic?

[Fiona]

I rather think you are, Luciferlite. I doubt you would get thrown out. This is a well organised "cult" and you will not be the first to attempt this nor even the 10th. They have strategies for dealing with challenge of this sort but more importantly I have a concern about anyone who immerses themselves in a cult for any reason: the techniques of coercive persuasion are very effective and although the alpha course cannot achieve isolation, and so cannot fully implement them, they do use what they can. I do not think there is much to be gained

[Luciferlite]

Ah, I love to be patronised in the morning. I feel kind of insulted that you seem to think that I have not even done the most basic of research into their methods.

I am not expecting to overthrow the alpha course, I am only hoping to have an interesting experience and perhaps throw a few seeds of doubt into some people's minds. Atheism is my great interest and I feel a need to put some effort into this cultural war. I am not trying to infiltrate a cult of true believers, but an organisation that targets agnostics. Every seed of doubt that we can plant into the mind of an agnostic could translate into a lost "soul" and generations of atheists to follow.

While I understand your concerns feel that such a negative attitude to pro-active skeptism is at best unhelpful.

[lionking]

Ah, I love to be patronised in the morning. I feel kind of insulted that you seem to think that I have not even done the most basic of research into their methods.


Wow. Pretty good uncivil post for just your third.

You must have a very different understanding of the word "patronised" to me. Cool down a bit.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Ah, I love to be patronised in the morning. I feel kind of insulted that you seem to think that I have not even done the most basic of research into their methods.

I am not expecting to overthrow the alpha course, I am only hoping to have an interesting experience and perhaps throw a few seeds of doubt into some people's minds. Atheism is my great interest and I feel a need to put some effort into this cultural war. I am not trying to infiltrate a cult of true believers, but an organisation that targets agnostics. Every seed of doubt that we can plant into the mind of an agnostic could translate into a lost "soul" and generations of atheists to follow.

While I understand your concerns feel that such a negative attitude to pro-active skeptism is at best unhelpful.

Why do you feel the need to do 'pro-active scepticism'? It seems to me needlessly confrontational, and I tend to agree with the other posters that you will get pwned as the people who run alpha courses are not daft and will have ready answers to 'gotcha' questions.

Also, don't you think that what you are doing is a bit too much like someone who has seen the light going out to witness to the unbelievers?

[Luciferlite]

Why do you feel the need to do 'pro-active scepticism'? It seems to me needlessly confrontational, and I tend to agree with the other posters that you will get pwned as the people who run alpha courses are not daft and will have ready answers to 'gotcha' questions.

Also, don't you think that what you are doing is a bit too much like someone who has seen the light going out to witness to the unbelievers?

I feel the need for active atheism because I feel religion is dangerous. My style is far from confrontational, more a use of light Socratic irony and posing harder questions away from the facilitators.

And yes I do feel that it is exactly like witnessing to unbelievers. That is my aim. I do not see anything wrong with this. I believe that religion is a negative influence on society and therefore atheists should discourage it in any way they can.

I don't expect much success, I mainly expect an entertaining and diverting way to spend a few hours. I'm a bit surprised at getting such a negative response from this forum, but I'll give it a go anyway and maybe report back.

[lionking]

I'm a bit surprised at getting such a negative response from this forum,

You asked for opinions and received them in a non-confrontational manner, yet complained about being patronised. You will find civility when you display it.

[Lothian]

Ah, I love to be patronised in the morning. I feel kind of insulted that you seem to think that I have not even done the most basic of research into their methods.

I am not expecting to overthrow the alpha course, I am only hoping to have an interesting experience and perhaps throw a few seeds of doubt into some people's minds. Atheism is my great interest and I feel a need to put some effort into this cultural war. I am not trying to infiltrate a cult of true believers, but an organisation that targets agnostics. Every seed of doubt that we can plant into the mind of an agnostic could translate into a lost "soul" and generations of atheists to follow.

While I understand your concerns feel that such a negative attitude to pro-active skeptism is at best unhelpful.Having researched you will be aware that most the course involves being split into small groups. I saw a TV programme where they followed a group from start to finish. I have read elsewhere that this is not typical. People who have taken a similar route to yourself and asked difficult questions have found that their group changes personnel very quickly and they are soon put in a group where everyone else is a fully signed up Alpha member. I understand that Alpha has some members who attend pretending to be agnostic. You will soon not have any agnostics in your group to influence.

But, I would not want to put you off, the best way is to find out for yourself. Please do let us know what the outcome is.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I feel
And yes I do feel that it is exactly like witnessing to unbelievers. That is my aim. I do not see anything wrong with this. I believe that religion is a negative influence on society and therefore atheists should discourage it in any way they can.


And you don't see anything problematic or ironic about this in any way at all.....

[Luciferlite]

I see the irony but just because something is ironic does not make it wrong.

I am against religion, but not against people pushing their own agendas. I understand my bias and I understand that many people would see doing what I propose to do as morally wrong, but I am no moral relativist. I am a irrational animal and I think I have an idea about how to make a slight incremental improvement in the human condition. I understand that I may be wrong and I will probably be unsuccessful, but it seems worth going out and doing something about it rather than just complaining about credulous people on some on-line forum.

And most importantly I think it will be fun.

[bokonon]

Having researched you will be aware that most the course involves being split into small groups. I saw a TV programme where they followed a group from start to finish. I have read elsewhere that this is not typical. People who have taken a similar route to yourself and asked difficult questions have found that their group changes personnel very quickly and they are soon put in a group where everyone else is a fully signed up Alpha member. I understand that Alpha has some members who attend pretending to be agnostic. You will soon not have any agnostics in your group to influence.

But, I would not want to put you off, the best way is to find out for yourself. Please do let us know what the outcome is.
Knowing that's the case, perhaps attempting to establish a way to contact these people outside the control of the group (exchanging business cards?) would be more effective than simply posing questions inside the program until you've irritated them into isolating you (is "pearling" the term for this?).

[Lothian]

I think Susan is still posting here. Read her thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64405)and I am sure whe will answwer any questions you have.

[six7s]

...I feel that it is about time I did something about these issues rather than just getting involved in pointless debates with people who are unlikely to change their minds.

A friend and I were thinking of trying some practical atheism by joining an alpha course in order to ask difficult questions and maybe plant a few seed of doubt amongst the agnostics. I have a hunch that you are erroneously assuming that these two are mutually exclusive

[arthwollipot]

Fair enough, I'm pretty good at making people like me and appearing unthreatening. I am unconfrontational and well mannered so if they threw me out it should make them look bad and perhaps make a few of the agnostics think twice, especially if they failed to give a plausible answer to my questions. I have a well worked out back story and feel well prepared to last long enough to plant a few seeds of doubt. I'm not expecting too much but it should be fun, am I being hopelessly optimistic?That sounds all right, but it seems to me that you are approaching this from an initial standpoint of lying. You are intentionally approaching it in order to deceive them about your intentions. That's why I initially said that it can't be good. If you lie, then that gives them a reason to discount you. It gives them ammunition.

I am all in favour of taking an active stance, but you simply can't do it by lying. It's unethical and counterproductive. And I'm sorry, but I'm simply against dishonesty.

Now, if you approach them honestly, and say that you're there to examine their claims, critically examine their claims even, then you may achieve what you want because you will have plenty of opportunities to speak up, and by the sounds of it you can do it politely and respectfully. But if you lie about your intentions, if you make up a backstory, then you are a bad guy from the very beginning and they have a reason to completely ignore anything and everything you say.

Do this. But do not lie about it. Absolute honesty in all dealings is the only way to achieve results.

[Ladewig]

I think Susan is still posting here. Read her thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=64405)and I am sure whe will answwer any questions you have.

After reading that thread, I am having a hard time seeing the advantages of your plan, Luciferlite.

[Careyp74]

I wouldn't say they are cult like, however, their defensive strategies do make it hard to accomplish what you are after. I would say it sounds like it would be an enlightening experience, however, so go for it. Read the bible again beforehand, so you know more what you are talking about, and don't use the word atheist. There are a lot of people who don't believe in god, who don't know what the word atheist is, be one of those.

[Simon39759]

I also disagree with the whole idea.
I don't think it would be very helpful and, hating to be proselytised upon, I don't feel like encouraging my fellow atheists to 'return the favour'.

I also disagree with your stance that religion is automatically dangerous and should be eradicated. Being protected from the most fanatical and dangerous fringes of religions and getting away with the prejudice against atheists would be enough to satisfy my militant atheism.
Indeed, I never felt the need to belong to the atheist movement when I was living in Europe, as it is perfectly acceptable over there.

But, he, if you are going to do it anyway, please, by all mean, come back and tell us how it went, I am curious of the results.

[Pure Argent]

Hi, I've been a lurker on this forum for a while but not generally inclined to post and have been passively involved in the atheist/skeptical movement for several years. I feel that it is about time I did something about these issues rather than just getting involved in pointless debates with people who are unlikely to change their minds.

A friend and I were thinking of trying some practical atheism by joining an alpha course in order to ask difficult questions and maybe plant a few seed of doubt amongst the agnostics. I'm not planning on starting blazing rows, I would be pretending to be a hopeful agnostic who saw the value of the church as a community but had problems with blind faith and I feel this would give me license to ask questions that they would not have satisfactory answers for.

I was interested to know if people on this forum would think this is a good idea, or am I being needlessly confrontational. I am also interested to know if anyone has any ideas or resources that may help me.

thanks

Bad idea. Not only are you being needlessly confrontational, but you are putting yourself in a no-win situation. There is no possible situation where this can turn out well for you. Simply because you would be outnumbered by believers, any question you asked or argument you raise would be mocked or ignored while they bashed on your unbelief.
Sorta like what happens here, but in reverse and with less logic.

Anyway, welcome to the JREF!

[Luciferlite]

Thanks for all your responses.

I still intend to enrol, but your responses, and those from others that I have consulted, have definitely changed my tactics. I think now I will attend more as an observer for my own interest, and in order to write about my experience. I am obsessively interested in religion of all kinds and this is reason enough to attend, even if only for a few weeks. I would be unlikely to challenge anything that is said, and if I did it would be away from the meetings and towards the end of the course.

I don't want to give the impression that I want to overthrow all religion, even if I thought this was possible. I understand that religion is an important part of the human condition, but I feel that organised religion needs to be challenged in order to reduce it's political and social power.

I am aware that I can be overly strident in my atheism, I am told that this is a natural reaction for many people who feel they were cheated by religion.

[HansMustermann]

I still think it's a bad idea, because cults tend to be _good_ at persuasion techniques. And approaching it from a confrontational posture can actually be used against you, aikido style. Several brainwashing techniques actually rely on your being hostile to whatever they're trying to sell you. Some of the most deranged cults are full of people who thought this can't possibly happen to them. And if you could raise the dead and ask them, you'd probably find that several who drank the kool aid at Jonestown, a couple of years before they could have sworn that nobody can fool them like that.

Please don't take it as patronizing, but just as genuine concern. But then again, it's your choice.

[Simon39759]

Passively attending for information purpose seems good. I don't think that the Alpha course is really a cult insofar as they do not immerse you or follow up to force you in.
But they certainly do seem to use methods that seem derived from that of cults, as if somebody had look at a cult and cynically decided to apply their recruitment methods to mainstream Christianity.

It might be good to brush-up on your cult literature before going, so that you can identify these techniques when they are used, if only because it is one of the important thing to observe.

[dlorde]

... any question you asked or argument you raise would be mocked or ignored while they bashed on your unbelief.
As I understand it, a technique they (the team leaders) commonly use is to disarm you by honestly sympathising with your disbelief, anger, frustration, etc., and trying to 'help' you deal with it, without pressure. This 'honest', sympathetic warmth, without the happy-clappy blinkers you expect, can be far more effective than mockery, particularly in a group setting.

[Marquis de Carabas]

Do it.

[Perfume V]

I think it would be an interesting thing to write about, and a well-written critical article from an inside perspective has the potential to be a more effective skeptical tool than challenging the people attending the course - not least because an article could reach many, many more people than just those who are on one particular course.

I watched Jon Ronson's film on Alpha and I was struck by two connected things:

1) Atheist and agnostic ideas were fairly openly debated in the earlier weeks of the course, and
2) The people running the course seemed remarkably smug about their ability to deflect such ideas.

For example, in one scene Ronson interviewed the group leaders after a session and they said that all the questions they got from agnostics and atheists were so predictable, like "Why does god allow bad things to happen?" In fact, they had a pamphlet specially designed to address that question... and it turned out that all it said was, basically, "God moves in mysterious ways and it's not for us to question him". They looked so superior, so utterly confident of their ability to deal with that issue, and yet their answer to it was so completely pathetic.

[arthwollipot]

Thanks for all your responses.

I still intend to enrol, but your responses, and those from others that I have consulted, have definitely changed my tactics. I think now I will attend more as an observer for my own interest, and in order to write about my experience. I am obsessively interested in religion of all kinds and this is reason enough to attend, even if only for a few weeks. I would be unlikely to challenge anything that is said, and if I did it would be away from the meetings and towards the end of the course.

I don't want to give the impression that I want to overthrow all religion, even if I thought this was possible. I understand that religion is an important part of the human condition, but I feel that organised religion needs to be challenged in order to reduce it's political and social power.

I am aware that I can be overly strident in my atheism, I am told that this is a natural reaction for many people who feel they were cheated by religion.I fully support this approach to the subject. Please let us know how you get on.

[Akhenaten]

Thanks for all your responses.

I still intend to enrol, but your responses, and those from others that I have consulted, have definitely changed my tactics. I think now I will attend more as an observer for my own interest, and in order to write about my experience. I am obsessively interested in religion of all kinds and this is reason enough to attend, even if only for a few weeks. I would be unlikely to challenge anything that is said, and if I did it would be away from the meetings and towards the end of the course.

I don't want to give the impression that I want to overthrow all religion, even if I thought this was possible. I understand that religion is an important part of the human condition, but I feel that organised religion needs to be challenged in order to reduce it's political and social power.

I am aware that I can be overly strident in my atheism, I am told that this is a natural reaction for many people who feel they were cheated by religion.


Now you're talking,

Welcome aboard, you little devil you.


Cheers,

Dave

[Mr Clingford]

I do find it laughable to have Alpha Courses labelled as cults. They are very varied. I have been on one myself, talked to others who have attended them and viewed the Jon Ronson programme with its little biases.

I'm not sure that you can really generalise too much about Alpha Courses because they depend a lot on the people running them. They are generally from the evangelical conservative end of the spectrum and can tend to suggest that there are Xtian right answers to questions, aspects which mean that lots of Xtians don't like the Alpha Course approach.

What type of church is running the course - what is their type of Xtianity?