Russia accuses Poland of starting Second World War

[Matthew Cline]

From the Daily Telegraph newspaper (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/5445161/Russia-accuses-Poland-of-starting-Second-World-War.html):
The Russian defence ministry posted a potentially inflammatory essay on its website which claimed Poland resisted Germany's ultimatums in 1939 only because it "wanted to obtain the status of a great power".

...

"Anyone who has been minded to study the history of the Second World War knows it started because of Poland's refusal to meet Germany's requests," the statement read. "The German demands were very modest. You could hardly call them unfounded."

...

Under planned legislation, backed by Mr Medvedev, any Russian or foreigner who claims that the Soviet Union occupied Poland or the Baltic States could face up to five years in prison.

Well, that's a interesting bit of denialism.

[Eddie Dane]

One wonders why Russia didn't just go along with those very same plans that Germany had for them at the time:

From Wiki:
Generalplan Ost (GPO) was a secret Nazi plan of genocide[1] and ethnic cleansing to be realised in the territories occupied by Germany in Eastern Europe during World War II. The plan, prepared in the years 1939-1940, was part of Adolf Hitler's own Lebensraum plan and a fulfilment of the Drang nach Osten ("Drive towards the East") ideology of the German expansion to the east.

Linky (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost)

How farkin' stupid is this?

[ddt]

I don't understand the word "potentially" in the first sentence of the newspaper article. :)

[Uninvolved]

One wonders why Russia didn't just go along with those very same plans that Germany had for them at the time:

...

How farkin' stupid is this?


Well, how farkin' smart does one need to be to notice, that Germany's demand on Poland were rightful, in fact Germany could have demanded much more, still rightfully, as opposed to "Russia", where Germany had no rightful demands?

[Cainkane1]

Well, how farkin' smart does one need to be to notice, that Germany's demand on Poland were rightful, in fact Germany could have demanded much more, still rightfully, as opposed to "Russia", where Germany had no rightful demands?
I was always taught that Poland was attacked without provocation. I believe that no matter what concessions Poland may have made they would have been attacked anyway.

Poland was in no military position to defend itself from the Germans and its my guess that the Polish people would have made the concessions had they thought that they would avoid a disasterous war with germany. A war they knew they could not possibly win or even defend themselves against.

[Eddie Dane]

Well, how farkin' smart does one need to be to notice, that Germany's demand on Poland were rightful, in fact Germany could have demanded much more, still rightfully, as opposed to "Russia", where Germany had no rightful demands?

Hmmmm. Nazi word salad.

[Uninvolved]

I was always taught that Poland was attacked without provocation


Of course you were. So was I. That's called mandatory brainwashing. Read the thread WW2 Propaganda:70 Years Later The Lies Continue.

[Jontg]

PROTIP: Dissent for dissent's own sake is not dissent at all. Grow up and do some actual research.

[dudalb]

Well, how farkin' smart does one need to be to notice, that Germany's demand on Poland were rightful, in fact Germany could have demanded much more, still rightfully, as opposed to "Russia", where Germany had no rightful demands?

And How farkin stupid do you have to be to ignore that the Nazis made no secret of their desire for Lebensraum to the East, that included Russia?
Oh, they shut up about it during the Hitler/Stalin pact,but from day one regarded that pact as just a temporary convience for them to knock off Poland and then the Western Powers before turning to the real business.....

[Uninvolved]

And How farkin stupid do you have to be to ignore that the Nazis made no secret of their desire for Lebensraum to the East, that included Russia?


Edited for Rule 12Still, perhaps you could profit from trying to comprehend the meaning of my post, which was in response to

One wonders why Russia didn't just go along with those very same plans that Germany had for them at the time

[SpitfireIX]

Well, how farkin' smart does one need to be to notice, that Germany's demand on Poland were rightful, in fact Germany could have demanded much more, still rightfully, as opposed to "Russia", where Germany had no rightful demands?


Ah, this is obviously some strange use of the word "rightful" that I wasn't previously aware of. :rolleyes:

Poland was an independent kingdom for hundreds of years before it was carved up by Prussia, Austria, and Russia at the end of the 18th Century. Further, Germany had agreed to the Treaty of Versailles; Hitler had no right unilaterally to abrogate it.

[parky76]

Germany had a modern army. Poland has soldiers on horseback.

How dare those filthy Poles refuse Germany's modest demands!!!!! Gerrmany was right to take back Gdansk, Prussia, and the rest western half of Poland!!!

Blut und Eisen!!

But in all seriousness, Germany was wrong to take one inch of soveriegn Polish territory, and the USSR was wrong to take the Baltic States, eastern Poland, Ukraine, Ruthenia, etc etc.

WW2 was full of bad guys and very few good guys.

[Uninvolved]

Ah, this is obviously some strange use of the word "rightful" that I wasn't previously aware of


Edited for Rule 12

Poland was an independent kingdom for hundreds of years before it was carved up by Prussia, Austria, and Russia at the end of the 18th CenturyYes, and it was the right action to re-create a Polish state. However, it was not right to incorporate German regions with German people making up 2/3 of the population. The region Posen was originally Polish and it was inhabited 60% by Poles (and Germany accepted its incorporation in Pland), but the region West Prussia was just the other way.

Further, Germany had agreed to the Treaty of Versailles; Hitler had no right unilaterally to abrogate it.LOL, liars can not have enough of that, can they?

There was no Treaty of Versailles and Germany and there was no German consent to the dictat.

The Germans were informed on 1919-06-16, that they have three days to accept the "treaty" (*) or the Allies will take the necessary steps.

The "necessary stepsW would have been for example resuming the sea blockade and causing further hundreds of thousands of death due to starvation.

(*) The three days have been extended to seven.

As per rule 12, attack the argument, not the arguer.

[Rogue1stclass]

Germany had a modern army. Poland has soldiers on horseback.

This is a pretty common misconception that was actually started by Germany during WWII as propaganda. The Polish Army was pretty modern and strong for the time. They did have horseback soldiers, but these were mounted infantry used as fast reserves, as they could cover rough terrain faster than infantry on foot or in vehicles. They didn't fight with saber or spear on horseback, but dismounted and fought with modern weapons using infantry tactics, usually accompanied by armor and artillery.

The problem wasn't with Poland being weak. It was that Germany was so overwhelmingly strong. Even so, Poland still held out against Germany and the Soviets for over a month and never formally surrendered. Not that it did it much good.

[parky76]

The problem wasn't with Poland being weak. It was that Germany was so overwhelmingly strong. Even so, Poland still held out against Germany and the Soviets for over a month and never formally surrendered. Not that it did it much good.

To their credit. The Poles were very brave to fight against the Nazi onslaught, and even braver to fly with the RAF while they were in exile.

If Germany wanted back some of the lands they lost after WW1, they should have engaged in peaceful negotiations with the Poles. Im sure Poland would have looked at the proposals and at the very least, promise political and cultural autonomy for the Germans in Poland.

But Hitler didn't give a **** about the rights of the Germans. He wanted Lebensraum and to exterminate the Jews and the Poles. His intentions were very clear...to all but the blind, retarded, and Nazi apologists.

[Uninvolved]

This is a pretty common misconception that was actually started by Germany during WWII as propaganda


I wonder if you know of examples how this was used as "propaganda" by Germany. Searching in Internet, I could find only propaganda, which is supposed to raise sympathy with Poland. Examples:

Poland's two million man army was easily defeated, many of whom were on horseback against German tanks.

The battle for Poland lasted 39 days. Not 34 and, by the way, my great uncle was in the calvary and killed while attacking German tanks on horseback out of frustration.

Our soldiers are fighting on horseback and the Germans are fighting with planes and tanks. We can never win!

[Rika]

It's not propaganda. There are a series of WW2 history books that cite that (I've been reading one but..)

Uh..


There was no Treaty of Versailles and Germany and there was no German consent to the dictat.

The Germans were informed on 1919-06-16, that they have three days to accept the "treaty" (*) or the Allies will take the necessary steps.

Yes, that's kinda what happens when you lose a war is that you have to sign the treaty by force. Hence, "losing."

[parky76]

You know, some believe that the Jews forced Germany to put them all into ghettos.

Its really easy to blame the victim.

[geni]

I wonder if you know of examples how this was used as "propaganda" by Germany. Searching in Internet, I could find only propaganda, which is supposed to raise sympathy with Poland.

Mostly along the lines of "silly poles they attack tanks while on horseback".

The truth is that while the poles did have cavalry it was mostly used as a mobile reserve and was equiped with fairly modern weapons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty#Aftermath_and_the_myth

[Retrograde]

Doesn't the US still use mules in some areas, such as Afghanistan, because they're more reliable under the circumstances than motorized transport? And if a deer can take out a modern automobile, a trained and motivated cavalry should be able to inflict some damage on 1939-vintage tanks and cars.

[WildCat]

Doesn't the US still use mules in some areas, such as Afghanistan, because they're more reliable under the circumstances than motorized transport?
Not just mules, some Special Forces soldiers actually did ride horses into battle early in the war:

http://home.mindspring.com/~a.lo/SF_afghanistan_horse.jpg

This guy was part of Team Alpha supporting the Northern Alliance warlord Dostrum's calvary in October 2001.

[Moss]

I love how this glosses over the whole Sender Gleiwitz incident. The "reasonable and modest" Germans try to finger the Polish as starting the war. That does not look like they were that reasonable at all.

[ddt]

I love how this glosses over the whole Sender Gleiwitz incident. The "reasonable and modest" Germans try to finger the Polish as starting the war. That does not look like they were that reasonable at all.

There are now two threads discussing the Poland campaign. Gleiwitz has been mentioned in the other; read about from here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5074695#post5074695). Short version: according to 'Uninvolved', Gleiwitz didn't occur, but he has no evidence.

[Moss]

Good thing WE have evidence that it occurred by Alfred Naujocks himself who did the whole thing.

[geni]

Doesn't the US still use mules in some areas, such as Afghanistan, because they're more reliable under the circumstances than motorized transport? And if a deer can take out a modern automobile, a trained and motivated cavalry should be able to inflict some damage on 1939-vintage tanks and cars.

Not tanks. Even light tanks can drive through a brick wall with little trouble. Horses will not present a problem. Charges are mostly limited to unprepared infantry targets.

[9/11-investigator]

And How farkin stupid do you have to be to ignore that the Nazis made no secret of their desire for Lebensraum to the East, that included Russia?

Ah, give those Krauts a break. After all that Britain of yours possessed 25% of the planet's surface in 1939. Now that's Lebensraum for you!

I am sure that dudalb doesn't want to be accused of having double standards.

What do you say dudalb? Ah, you honestly found those colonies!

I see.

[Moss]

Just because other people have robbed the natives of the control of their territory you are still not allowed to do the same to your neighbour. (Especially after your neighbour had to live 160 years under your control with no room to himself.)

[ddt]

Just because other people have robbed the natives of the control of their territory you are still not allowed to do the same to your neighbour. (Especially after your neighbour had to live 160 years under your control with no room to himself.)

The Germans have always been very nice occupiers. Ask not only the Poles, but also the Herero of Namibia. :rolleyes:

[geni]

Ah, give those Krauts a break. After all that Britain of yours possessed 25% of the planet's surface in 1939. Now that's Lebensraum for you!

I am sure that dudalb doesn't want to be accused of having double standards.

What do you say dudalb? Ah, you honestly found those colonies!

I see.

Found them (mostly there were a few we aquired from other europeans). Killed off any of the natives who tried to oppose us (those not accidently wipped out by smallpox that is) and nicked their land. Of course we generaly didn't go in for delibarate large scale genocide (have you any idea how hard it is to sell things to deal people?) and when we created large settlements it was generaly in places that had fairly limited existing populations (or populations that had been killed off by european diseases).

Deliberately trying to kill off a religious group? Thuggee perhaps but they were killing people and disrupting trade. For the most part we got on fairly well with religious minorities since haveing a group the rest of the population dislike is rather useful.

The british empire certianly behaved in a far from acceptable manner but that doesn't make the actions of the nazis any more acceptable.

[9/11-investigator]

Found them (mostly there were a few we aquired from other europeans). Killed off any of the natives who tried to oppose us (those not accidently wipped out by smallpox that is) and nicked their land. Of course we generaly didn't go in for delibarate large scale genocide (have you any idea how hard it is to sell things to deal people?) and when we created large settlements it was generaly in places that had fairly limited existing populations (or populations that had been killed off by european diseases).

Deliberately trying to kill off a religious group? Thuggee perhaps but they were killing people and disrupting trade. For the most part we got on fairly well with religious minorities since haveing a group the rest of the population dislike is rather useful.

The british empire certianly behaved in a far from acceptable manner but that doesn't make the actions of the nazis any more acceptable.

Of course not, but at the same time it should make our friend dudalb somewhat more modest while exercising his incessant accusations regarding the Germans.

[geni]

Of course not, but at the same time it should make our friend dudalb somewhat more modest while exercising his incessant accusations regarding the Germans.

Accusations? His statements are well established historical facts.

[Safe-Keeper]

]The Russian defence ministry posted a potentially inflammatory essay on its website which claimed Poland resisted Germany's ultimatums in 1939 only because it "wanted to obtain the status of a great power". Nah, they just needed time to hide the WMD's.

Even high-tech interstellar empires use cavalry.
http://starwars.carrotnetwork.com/tatooinepatrolmovie.jpg
http://www.telcom.es/~jcastjr/starwars/tauntaun.jpg (http://www.telcom.es/%7Ejcastjr/starwars/tauntaun.jpg)

[parky76]

Of course not, but at the same time it should make our friend dudalb somewhat more modest while exercising his incessant accusations regarding the Germans.

you mean regarding the Nazis. Nazi does NOT equal German.

[Polaris]

Uh huh.

I guess if Poland wasn't wearing those skimpy clothes and cutting through a dark alley to get home nobody would have thought of sodomizing her.