Quick fundamentalist put downs.

[ricbritain]

I work in Libya which is of course a land full to the brim with religious lunacy. I argue daily with my Islamic colleagues about the validity, or lack it validity, of their insane religion. I've had some fantastically amazing conversations and tried all ways to shake their belief. I have taken the soft approach and the direct and shocking approach and at times I have felt like I was making progress. I just wondered if anyone had any short, effective and succinct comments, statements or questions that I might add to my catalogue of ammunition and come backs. I'm looking for things that might make them think or question or maybe just leave them with me reply.

One day I will get a dicta-phone to secretly record me conversations to put on the internet, or at least write them up.:)

[themusicteacher]

"Your God is dead and no one cares"

[Jonnyclueless]

I have a notepad that I paste quotes from preaching friends in. And I bring it up when we have our conversations so I can present their own quotes, such as:

"I wont care if my species has continued or even if my grandkids are safe..."

"So - having no doubts - and knowing that if you dont believe, you go to Hell"

"I am not intellectually intelligent at all"

"JOY - based on the fact that life stinks and the world is falling apart but God is redeeming me"

"Step out of intellectual world and into the real world"

"I am immoral and I admit it."

"God does NOT torutre us. He gives us what we ask for."

"Yes - i do teach my kids they are wicked and unrighteous. I also teach them ALL manking is wicked and unrighteous."


I have thousands of these.

[Skeptic]

I work in Libya which is of course a land full to the brim with religious lunacy.

You don't say.

Still, I'm in Israel, so I shouldn't talk, I guess...

[Madalch]

I think if I was in Libya, I'd keep my mouth respectfully shut until I was in a safer country.

[Ryokan]

I think if I was in Libya, I'd keep my mouth respectfully shut until I was in a safer country.

Not all Muslims are frothing at the mouth at the thought of killing an unbeliever. Quite a minority, really.

[Madalch]

Not all Muslims are frothing at the mouth at the thought of killing an unbeliever. Quite a minority, really.
I'm well aware of that. But there are Muslims who object to having their religion criticized.

[Pure Argent]

I'm well aware of that. But there are Muslims who object to having their religion criticized.

This differs from every other religion how, exactly...?

[themusicteacher]

I'm well aware of that. But there are Muslims who object to having their religion criticized.

Almost every religious person objects to having their religion criticized, especially since they have no sensible retort.

[vIQleS]

The old classic - I saw this just this morning:

Trubee: "I'll pray for you..."

You: "I'll think for you."

[Olowkow]

The real problem is that you could get some of these friends killed for apostasy. Just sayin'. You may not be aware of how serious this **** is.

[Denver]

Quick fundamentalist put downs.
... I just wondered if anyone had any short, effective and succinct comments, statements or questions that I might add to my catalogue of ammunition and come backs. I'm looking for things that might make them think or question or maybe just leave them with me reply...


Wouldn't "short, effective and succinct comments, statements or questions" geared toward education be more appropriate than ones cast as a put down? This is the James Randi Educational Foundation forum, after all.

[fromdownunder]

The old classic - I saw this just this morning:

Trubee: "I'll pray for you..."

You: "I'll think for you."

I have heard the response "OK, I'll do the thinking for both of us"

Norm

[Mason]

This differs from every other religion how, exactly...?

Most other religions aren't known for dragging people into the street and sawing their heads off with pocketknives.

[Skeptical Greg]

Not recently, anyway ...

[wollery]

"Yes - i do teach my kids they are wicked and unrighteous. I also teach them ALL manking is wicked and unrighteous."One of the letters in that word is wrong, but I'm not sure which.

[zooterkin]

I think if I was in Libya, I'd keep my mouth respectfully shut until I was in a safer country.

"respectfully" and "safer" seems an odd combination. Respecting the culture of your hosts is one thing, but to do it only because it might be dangerous doesn't sound like respect as much as prudence.

[HansMustermann]

The real problem is that you could get some of these friends killed for apostasy. Just sayin'. You may not be aware of how serious this **** is.

Bingo. I don't know the exact situation in Lybia, but in many Muslim countries apostasy is legally a crime and can carry all sorts of penalties, going all the way to death penalty. Depending on the country, of course.

In some, apparently you can even be tried more than once for it. If you still didn't see the light after the first term in prison, well, they'll send you right back until you do.

[Jonnyclueless]

One of the letters in that word is wrong, but I'm not sure which.

I assume she meant mankind, but it's probably a freudian slip.

[Madalch]

"respectfully" and "safer" seems an odd combination. Respecting the culture of your hosts is one thing, but to do it only because it might be dangerous doesn't sound like respect as much as prudence.

Call it a bit of both, then.

[ricbritain]

I think if I was in Libya, I'd keep my mouth respectfully shut until I was in a safer country.

I have been advised to do this by many of my colleagues. It is good advice, but I find it hard to follow. I am surrounded by praying and chanting people who I consider to be religiously insane, and can not help but argue with them. The secret is to be sure of the person I take on. Many of them have never been confronted with someone that not only questions their belief but also condemns it. Only today I once again argued the validity of their claim that Mohammed cracked the moon in half and also argued the fact that the weather changes every Friday. These exchanges are incredible.

[rjh01]

If you have any success in changing their points of view please let us know the method. It will be very hard.

[Skeptic Ginger]

This differs from every other religion how, exactly...?I don't think the point was the religion, it was the country. I would never consider working there as a health care worker after they charged a bunch of foreign nurses with murder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_trial_in_Libya) by HIV to divert attention from their crappy health care system.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I have been advised to do this by many of my colleagues. It is good advice, but I find it hard to follow. I am surrounded by praying and chanting people who I consider to be religiously insane, and can not help but argue with them. The secret is to be sure of the person I take on. Many of them have never been confronted with someone that not only questions their belief but also condemns it. Only today I once again argued the validity of their claim that Mohammed cracked the moon in half and also argued the fact that the weather changes every Friday. These exchanges are incredible.I can't imagine it is safe to confront this kind of belief in a country where foreigners might end up as scapegoats for any number of officials' own problems.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Only today I once again argued the validity of their claim that Mohammed cracked the moon in half and also argued the fact that the weather changes every Friday. These exchanges are incredible.

That reminds me of a Muslim gal I was chatting with who insisted the worlds population was 4:1 women to facilitate polygamy.

[pakeha]

I can't imagine it is safe to confront this kind of belief in a country where foreigners might end up as scapegoats for any number of officials' own problems.
I have to agree with you there.
I've been googling the subject of martyrdom and find it's amazing how many people get 'martyred' because some local political figure has a bad hair day or figures some violent, blood soaked action will work as an escape valve for popular discontent til the next time round.
Nothing to do with their real beliefs.
Just ask the folks in Salem.

[ricbritain]

Worryingly I got a warning today from up high. From the top in fact. It seems that one of my discussions last week was with the wrong person about the wrong subject and word of it went straight around the field, and to the Libyan head man. I have been warned not to discuss any political or religious issue, especially now as people are being arrested and detained for this in Tripoli right now. I was quite shocked when told. I've always known that I was pushing the envelope here but have always been careful who I insult/talk to. I always check that people are happy to talk before I go down the religious or political path. Anyway, I guess I will have to tone it down in order to stay employed, providing it's not too late for that. I wouldn't be surprised if this was my last trip to Libya:(.

[Pure Argent]

Worryingly I got a warning today from up high. From the top in fact. It seems that one of my discussions last week was with the wrong person about the wrong subject and word of it went straight around the field, and to the Libyan head man. I have been warned not to discuss any political or religious issue, especially now as people are being arrested and detained for this in Tripoli right now. I was quite shocked when told. I've always known that I was pushing the envelope here but have always been careful who I insult/talk to. I always check that people are happy to talk before I go down the religious or political path. Anyway, I guess I will have to tone it down in order to stay employed, providing it's not too late for that. I wouldn't be surprised if this was my last trip to Libya:(.

At least they gave you warning before arresting you.

[pakeha]

Here's hoping you a safe journey home.
Take care.

[Cainkane1]

I work in Libya which is of course a land full to the brim with religious lunacy. I argue daily with my Islamic colleagues about the validity, or lack it validity, of their insane religion. I've had some fantastically amazing conversations and tried all ways to shake their belief. I have taken the soft approach and the direct and shocking approach and at times I have felt like I was making progress. I just wondered if anyone had any short, effective and succinct comments, statements or questions that I might add to my catalogue of ammunition and come backs. I'm looking for things that might make them think or question or maybe just leave them with me reply.

One day I will get a dicta-phone to secretly record me conversations to put on the internet, or at least write them up.:)
Is it safe to argue with them like this? I'd just leave well enough alone. You got more courage than I do.

[Jonnyclueless]

That reminds me of a Muslim gal I was chatting with who insisted the worlds population was 4:1 women to facilitate polygamy.

Last night when I asked a creationist how their scientific theory explains 99% of all species having gone extinct, the explanation was "to provide us with oil".

[Third Eye Open]

"Your God is dead and no one cares"

If there is a hell, I'll see you there.

[RobRoy]

I work in Libya which is of course a land full to the brim with religious lunacy. I argue daily with my Islamic colleagues about the validity, or lack it validity, of their insane religion. I've had some fantastically amazing conversations and tried all ways to shake their belief. I have taken the soft approach and the direct and shocking approach and at times I have felt like I was making progress. I just wondered if anyone had any short, effective and succinct comments, statements or questions that I might add to my catalogue of ammunition and come backs. I'm looking for things that might make them think or question or maybe just leave them with me reply.

One day I will get a dicta-phone to secretly record me conversations to put on the internet, or at least write them up.:)

I read your request last week when you first posted it, but I really didn't have anything at that point to add. It's not that I can't come up with put downs; far from it. Rather, I found the whole point of your argument to be one that concerned me, though at the time I wasn't exactly certain why. There is, of course, the issue of being in a predominantly Muslim country ruled by a notorious dictator. Sure, this isn't Iran or Taliban Afghanistan, but Libya is a pretty restrictive nation by any measure, and arguing religion is a good way to be visited by folk you would find less than entertaining.

Then there was the question of seeking "come backs" to add to your "catalogue of ammunition". Come backs, as pithy as they might be, aren't really ammunition in an argument, not to anyone who is interested in true discussion and debate. Instead, these are a sure-fire way of putting someone off from talking to you altogether. You make no friends, and influence no one, by putting them down for their religious convictions. This is fine if you want to have the last say in an argument with someone you're not interested in talking to ever again. I've certainly done this from time to time with folk I find too closed-minded to get a straight answer. It is, however, less than productive if you're trying to convince someone to look deeper than the memes of their faith, and answer legitimately for those aspects that seem less than credible.

The worst thing that struck me, however, about your request was your complete disregard for the Muslim believers, to the point that you are willing to "secretly record" your conversations, and then post them. I see no benefit to this whatsoever except as a means of stroking your own ego and supporting your own pre-supposed intellectual superiority over people you consider your "colleagues" by essentially pointing and laughing. That's hardly a productive tactic to say the least. Quite the contrary, that seems to be a very mean-spirited thing to do, with the only goal being your amusement by mocking the beliefs of others.

[Madalch]

I have been warned not to discuss any political or religious issue, especially now as people are being arrested and detained for this in Tripoli right now. I was quite shocked when told.

Now who was it who told me that "Not all Muslims are frothing at the mouth fundamentalists" when I suggested you might not want to start arguments?

[Psi Baba]

Does everyone here really believe this guy? I don't know that I'd use the word troll, but I think we're being played. This just does not ring true.

[ricbritain]

Does everyone here really believe this guy? I don't know that I'd use the word troll, but I think we're being played. This just does not ring true.

What exactly does not ring true?

I haven't actually been asked to leave, only warned not to discuss these topics. I am worried that I might be asked not to return after my next leave, since I imagine the guy that put in the complain taking the issue all the way to the officials in Libya. If he can also present witnesses who confirm my unrestricted religious debates then it could be the end of my contract.

I do not restrict myself to mocking them, although I admit I do this too. There are intelligent young men here who I think deserve more from life than sitting rocking in their chairs chanting from the Quran. I have tried many times to put across the point that whilst Muslim they should try to expose themselves to the wonder of the real world. I have a very good relationship with several of these young men and our constant verbal combat is something I think both party's enjoy. They still tell me daily that I will convert, that the world will one day be Islamic, that one day my skin will burn from my body in hell and that I should open my mind. My mistake is in forgetting myself and talking in a similar way to Muslims that I am not familiar with.

Until you have spent time immersed in either a fundamentalist Islamic society, or a similar Christian society I don't think you can understand just how intense it can be. Realistically, as an atheist and a skeptic I should not put myself in these positions, but this is where I make my money and therefore right now I have few other options.

[RobRoy]

Until you have spent time immersed in either a fundamentalist Islamic society, or a similar Christian society I don't think you can understand just how intense it can be. Realistically, as an atheist and a skeptic I should not put myself in these positions, but this is where I make my money and therefore right now I have few other options.

Barring cults or super-fundamentalist sects (which have limited and xenophobic societies), there aren't too many Christian societies that match their Muslim counterparts. The closest I would think would be the LDS of the Salt Lake Valley in Utah, which is where I was raised.

But despite this random requirement of yours, I still feel that your request is based on a self-stated superiority, and your desire to mock and scorn those who don't have your same world view. At the least it's non-productive, at the most it's contemptible.

[ricbritain]

Barring cults or super-fundamentalist sects (which have limited and xenophobic societies), there aren't too many Christian societies that match their Muslim counterparts. The closest I would think would be the LDS of the Salt Lake Valley in Utah, which is where I was raised.

But despite this random requirement of yours, I still feel that your request is based on a self-stated superiority, and your desire to mock and scorn those who don't have your same world view. At the least it's non-productive, at the most it's contemptible.

I think there may be similar society's within Africa. I'm told that Nigerian Christians are close.

I have to admit that you may be right. Essentially it is non-productive. I doubt that I am ever going to convert a Libyan or even make one doubt their beliefs for more than a couple of minutes. Starting today I am no longer going too discuss religion with any Muslims, both for my own well being and because I know it's wrong. I have said this before but this time I will try harder.

[RobRoy]

I think there may be similar society's within Africa. I'm told that Nigerian Christians are close.

Could be, but I no experience there.

I have to admit that you may be right. Essentially it is non-productive. I doubt that I am ever going to convert a Libyan or even make one doubt their beliefs for more than a couple of minutes. Starting today I am no longer going too discuss religion with any Muslims, both for my own well being and because I know it's wrong. I have said this before but this time I will try harder.

I have to say that I'm impressed with the change in direction you've stated. I expected a great deal of vitriol, rather than a reasoned response. Congrats! :clap: