Bibles in children's desks

[SusanB-M1]

This might be more appropriate in 'Education' but I'm posting it here because I picked up the topic on one of the BBC message boards. (The poster concerned, by the way, would be an ideal contributor to JREF - he really knows his Philosophy! I mention JREF occasionally, but I suppose people do have lives outside message bords!)

Anyway, he was taking his daughter to school on first day of new term, and in her school desk, in an RC (State funded) school, was a Bible inscribed with her name, from a group called 'Bibles in Schools;, information about which he could not find on the internet.

From what he has posted before, it is evident that his daughter has already acquired a creditable maturity of thought and is well on her way to being a critical thinker, so the book itself will not change her, but the principle of giving each child a Bible in this way is wrong, I think.

Any thoughts from posters here that I can add to the discussion?

[Careyp74]

Couldn't really give an opinion for such things over there, but here in the US that would definitely be nipped in the bud the first day. The whole idea of a third party coming into a school and distributing bibles with the children's name inscribed in it? Do they get a list of children in each class, or is it the teacher that writes the names and distributes the books?

[Sunray Breaker]

It wouldn't suprize me if they allowed bibles in American schools as well...One thing I hope Obama can do (which he's already at least acknowledged in some of his speeches) is re-enforce the seperation between church and state...He seems to show a bit more respect towards the non-religious than some of our past presidents...

Teaching creationism along side evolution, is probably more damaging than giving a kid a bible.

BTW - The pages make GREAT rolling papers!!!

[thaiboxerken]

It's definitely wrong to distribute bibles in public schools.

[SusanB-M1]

Couldn't really give an opinion for such things over there, but here in the US that would definitely be nipped in the bud the first day. The whole idea of a third party coming into a school and distributing bibles with the children's name inscribed in it? Do they get a list of children in each class, or is it the teacher that writes the names and distributes the books?
Thank you for your comments. I do not know who did the name writing - I'll ask tomorrow.

[madurobob]

Couldn't really give an opinion for such things over there, but here in the US that would definitely be nipped in the bud the first day.

Don't be so sure:

A NC School System hands out Bibles (http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/marchweb-only/111-43.0.html)

Bibles handed out in Kentucky High Schools (http://conservativethoughts.us/2007/04/21/aclu-monitoring-school-bible-handouts/)

Neither are quite like the OP scenario - but close. Do they have Gideons in England?

[Subduction Zone]

An organized distribution of bibles in school would definitely be crossing the line of separation of church and state. But the title of the thread led me to think that this was going to be about bibles in children's desks. If the school does not ban any work of fiction, or classic writing for that matter, then I see no problem with children having bibles of their own in their desks.

[Andrew Wiggin]

My biggest problem with this is that it implies that a religious organization is being provided with the names of school age children for the asking. I'd like to hope that when I have children in school, the school will do a better job of protecting their privacy. Maybe things are different in the UK, but I think here that would be the grounds for a major suit.

(I'm reading 'inscribed' as implying that the organization had the name and had it printed, not that they provided an already overworked teacher with a few cases of bibles and said 'ya, go to it')

A.

[Fiona]

Er....it is an RC school. What do you expect?

[joobz]

Perhaps start an organization with a similar goal called "Karma sutras in Schools"

[madurobob]

Er....it is an RC school. What do you expect?

:) Actually, the answer is here (http://www.dawanet.com/nonmuslim/intro/current/school.html), I believe:

From August 1989 all County Schools in England and Wales must hold daily Christian Worship (Assembly) and provide Christian religious education according to Sec.6(1) and Sec.7(1) of the Education reform act,1988. This means that all Muslim children in County Schools must now attend Christian worship and Christian religious education (RE) unless their parents write to their headteacher stating "I do not wish my child to attend Christian collective worship and Christian RE"

We'd need someone from the UK to confirm this is true.

[Fiona]

That is true and it is not a good thing, Madurobob: but it is irrelevant in this case.

The parent has chosen to send their child to a catholic school. Catholic schools teach catholicism. That is why they exist.

If you don't want your kid taught catholicism don't send them to a catholic school.

[madurobob]

That is true and it is not a good thing, Madurobob: but it is irrelevant in this case.

The parent has chosen to send their child to a catholic school. Catholic schools teach catholicism. That is why they exist.

If you don't want your kid taught catholicism don't send them to a catholic school.

Ah - I interpreted the OP as saying that RC didn't mean "Roman Catholic", but rather it was an abbreviation for public school in the UK. I mean, why in the world would anyone sending their child to Catholic school complain about bibles being there?

ETA; unless they were Jehovah's Witness bibles or some such.

[joobz]

Ah - I interpreted the OP as saying that RC didn't mean "Roman Catholic", but rather it was an abbreviation for public school in the UK. I mean, why in the world would anyone sending their child to Catholic school complain about bibles being there?

ETA; unless they were Jehovah's Witness bibles or some such.
I thought the same thing. It seems bizarre for a person to be shocked that a religious school is teaching religion.

[madurobob]

I thought the same thing. It seems bizarre for a person to be shocked that a religious school is teaching religion.

Well, apparently they are state funded. So its not exactly like sending a kid to a private catholic school in the states. I'd raise an eyebrow at finding student bibles in a state funded school in the US, but I'd be quite surprised to find a state funded catholic school here.

Still, odds are pretty good that the school has a name starting with "Saint", so there really should be no confusion.

[SusanB-M1]

Many thanks for all the responses. I've been clicking on the multi-quote links, so hope the following is not muddled! (Looks okay on preview...)
Don't be so sure:

Neither are quite like the OP scenario - but close. Do they have Gideons in England?
Yes, but I do not think they hand out Bibles in Primary Schools.

An organized distribution of bibles in school would definitely be crossing the line of separation of church and state. But the title of the thread led me to think that this was going to be about bibles in children's desks. If the school does not ban any work of fiction, or classic writing for that matter, then I see no problem with children having bibles of their own in their desks.
Yes, of course, schools have sets of Bibles to be read like other text books, but the OP was concerned with Bibles as personal gifts to the children.

My biggest problem with this is that it implies that a religious organization is being provided with the names of school age children for the asking. I'd like to hope that when I have children in school, the school will do a better job of protecting their privacy. Maybe things are different in the UK, but I think here that would be the grounds for a major suit.

(I'm reading 'inscribed' as implying that the organization had the name and had it printed, not that they provided an already overworked teacher with a few cases of bibles and said 'ya, go to it')
A very interesting point which I'll see if I can get the answer to.

Er....it is an RC school. What do you expect?
However, it is not a private school, but state funded ... as far as I know anyway. I will try to learn more on this question.

:) Actually, the answer is here (http://www.dawanet.com/nonmuslim/intro/current/school.html), I believe:

We'd need someone from the UK to confirm this is true.
Yes, the 'Christian Worship' still seems to apply, although there appears to be a lot of leeway here nowadays.

Ah - I interpreted the OP as saying that RC didn't mean "Roman Catholic", but rather it was an abbreviation for public school in the UK. I mean, why in the world would anyone sending their child to Catholic school complain about bibles being there?
As mentioned above, I think it is the personal gift aspect that does not seem right.

[madurobob]

As mentioned above, I think it is the personal gift aspect that does not seem right.

I agree - its a bit unsettling. But, it is a catholic school required by law to provide Religious Education. In that context this is just another textbook - albeit one they get to keep.

[oldhat]

LOL, so someone sent their kid to a Catholic school and is complaining about all of the Bibles and stuff they seem to be foisting on the students?

Get. Over. Yourself.

[SusanB-M1]

I have just looked again at the first post in the topic referred to in OP and discover I have made a mistake, for which of course, my apologies - it is a non-denominational school, with no particular religious affiliations, but the Head is an RC.
The Bibles were labelled as gifts from Bibles inSchools.

I thought the same thing. It seems bizarre for a person to be shocked that a religious school is teaching religion.
Religious Studies are part of schools' curriculum of course, but for information, not conversion.

Well, apparently they are state funded. So its not exactly like sending a kid to a private catholic school in the states. I'd raise an eyebrow at finding student bibles in a state funded school in the US, but I'd be quite surprised to find a state funded catholic school here.

Still, odds are pretty good that the school has a name starting with "Saint", so there really should be no confusion.
As I say, apologies for causing some confusion, but the state funded bit is right!

[Rrose Selavy]

Could be this lot:

http://www.biblesforchildren.org.uk/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=30

[SusanB-M1]

Could be this lot:

http://www.biblesforchildren.org.uk/content/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=16&Itemid=30
Thank you for the link - interesting. I see they recommend that schools consult parents first!

[Pure Argent]

I have just looked again at the first post in the topic referred to in OP and discover I have made a mistake, for which of course, my apologies - it is a non-denominational school, with no particular religious affiliations, but the Head is an RC.
The Bibles were labelled as gifts from Bibles inSchools.

Religious Studies are part of schools' curriculum of course, but for information, not conversion.

As I say, apologies for causing some confusion, but the state funded bit is right!

If it isn't a Roman Catholic school, then these people have no business trying to convert these children in such an underhanded way. But I would look first to the Head, who might have instigated it or at least had some part in arranging it.

[eccles]

I am horrified by this. I thought the UK was getting over the Religion plague in spite of the status of the Church of England.

Another thing. I do not see on the list of bibles one suitable for Roman Catholic Schools. The Roman Catholic Church uses the Douay-Rheims Bible, the official one for the Roman Catholic Church. I'm not sure if there is a children's edition of that. I do not know if the complete bible OT and NT is taught. When I went to Jesuit College in Australia we did Genesis and Exodus quickly, skipped the rest of the sordid books and concentrated on the NT.

I wonder what Richard Dawkins think of this.



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http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/338944a927d97a44d4.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17396) Robert

[geni]

Bibles are composed of paper and ink which tends to be fairly safe and as weapons they tend to be less effective than many text books or rulers. Trying to impose your paranoia about the ideas contained therin on your kids is unaceptable.