Reason 1 for Deconversion: My side lied or Is theism inherently dishonest?

[RandFan]

I've been reconstructing my journey from TBM (True Blue Mormon) to atheist and I've got to say it's an amazingly complex web of events and discoveries that was in no means linear.

I think one of the most troubling aspect of my defense of Mormonism specifically and theism in general was the propensity for deception and out right lies on behalf of belief in god and religion.

I'm not saying that atheists/secularists/humanists/etc., never lied or deceived, I'm saying that a.) from my perspective they were less likely and b.) they should have been more likely.

The bible says that "God cannot lie", "thou shalt not lie" and that "Satan is the father of all lies" yet I met people who actually made the argument that deception is valid to save people. Many Christians on the Internet are involved in deception to lower the ratings of atheist sites.

Now, one could argue that, being human, atheists also engage in inappropriate behavior but this seems like such an incredible cop out. Isn't theism supposed to engender better moral behavior not equivalent moral behavior?

It could be confirmation bias but it really seems to me that theists are more likely to engage in such deception as many of them think that they have a righteous purpose to do so. But I gotta say, it wasn't confirmation bias that led to my conclusion that many theists lied to further their beliefs when I was a theist.

So, given that faith isn't evidence based and so many are so confident as to the truth as to lie to improve the lie (http://3balls.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/3balls.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=129&p_created=1143733942) (the latter use of the word doesn't mean deception). Is theism inherently dishonest or am I simply counting the hits of one side and ignoring them of the other?

[~enigma~]

2 Corinthians 12:16 is a verse that tells christians to lie.

But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.

Is it really surprising that christians lie?

[bokonon]

I don't have any more hard data than you do, but it wouldn't surprise me, at least if you compare the folks on this board to a random group of evangelical theists.

For them, "saving souls" is one of the highest values. If they bend the truth toward that end, they're potentially saving someone from a fate worse than death.

For the randomly chosen skeptic, chances are that "truth" and "reality" will be one of the highest values. Deliberately lying violates that value.

I may be suffering from the same confirmation bias as you, and the vast majority of the theists I meet (online or otherwise) seem to have a commitment to truth similar to my own. I do think the highly visible atheists on the evolution side of the debate are more honest than the highly visible theists on the creationism / ID side.

[~enigma~]

I don't have any more hard data than you do, but it wouldn't surprise me, at least if you compare the folks on this board to a random group of evangelical theists.

For them, "saving souls" is one of the highest values. If they bend the truth toward that end, they're potentially saving someone from a fate worse than death.

For the randomly chosen skeptic, chances are that "truth" and "reality" will be one of the highest values. Deliberately lying violates that value.

I may be suffering from the same confirmation bias as you, and the vast majority of the theists I meet (online or otherwise) seem to have a commitment to truth similar to my own. I do think the highly visible atheists on the evolution side of the debate are more honest than the highly visible theists on the creationism / ID side.
Think about it for a second bokonon. The parasitic meme of christianity deems self replication of itself to be it's priority and a lie from it's host is a rather small price to pay if it results in a new host.

[RandFan]

I don't have any more hard data than you do, but it wouldn't surprise me, at least if you compare the folks on this board to a random group of evangelical theists.

For them, "saving souls" is one of the highest values. If they bend the truth toward that end, they're potentially saving someone from a fate worse than death.

For the randomly chosen skeptic, chances are that "truth" and "reality" will be one of the highest values. Deliberately lying violates that value.

I may be suffering from the same confirmation bias as you, and the vast majority of the theists I meet (online or otherwise) seem to have a commitment to truth similar to my own. I do think the highly visible atheists on the evolution side of the debate are more honest than the highly visible theists on the creationism / ID side.It would be interesting if a sociological experiment could be done but for the life of me I doubt it.

Think about it for a second bokonon. The parasitic meme of christianity deems self replication of itself to be it's priority and a lie from it's host is a rather small price to pay if it results in a new host.Agreed.

[Marduk]

Is theism inherently dishonest or am I simply counting the hits of one side and ignoring them of the other?

can you give me an example of a group who have members who never lie ?

[~enigma~]

can you give me an example of a group who have members who never lie ?
My family :)

[RandFan]

can you give me an example of a group who have members who never lie ?I've made that point abundantly clear and it is beside the point. Atheist are human and lie. Atheists are capable of lying for many reasons including ego. There is ample evidence that atheists have lied.

Not the point.

[MG1962]

So, given that faith isn't evidence based and so many are so confident as to the truth as to lie to improve the lie (http://3balls.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/3balls.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=129&p_created=1143733942) (the latter use of the word doesn't mean deception). Is theism inherently dishonest or am I simply counting the hits of one side and ignoring them of the other?

It is indeed an interesting question. Perhaps we are dealing with the issue the means justifies the cause. From my perspective, there should be no reason for a theist to lie.

If you genuinely believe your faith is the only way, and the only truth, there should be no need to lie to bolster that. If you are unsure of your faith, but see it being strengthed by leading others to it, then I have to worry about your motives

Instinctively a theist should try to take the moral high ground. Otherwise how can they show any difference to atheists, and if they can not demostrate any difference, what is the motivation for others to want to join your faith.

I like the way the Amish people approach this, they are so comfortable in their faith, they actually send their members out into the world to experience all the good and bad. At the end of the process, some return and take up a life devoted to their faith. It they feared this process, they would never allow it

[~enigma~]

If you genuinely believe your faith is the only way, and the only truth, there should be no need to lie to bolster that. If you are unsure of your faith, but see it being strengthed by leading others to it, then I have to worry about your motives
Doesn't have anything to do with how strong faith is or isn't. It is simply a means used to spread the parasitic meme.

[Hokulele]

It is indeed an interesting question. Perhaps we are dealing with the issue the means justifies the cause. From my perspective, there should be no reason for a theist to lie.


I think the key may lie in whether or not someone follows an evangelical version of their faith. It definitely seems more prevalent in the flavors of theism where conversion of others is a mandate.

[MG1962]

Doesn't have anything to do with how strong faith is or isn't. It is simply a means used to spread the parasitic meme.

Yes and as an athiest you would know ahh huh :boggled:

[~enigma~]

Yes and as an athiest you would know ahh huh :boggled:
Atheists or any non-theist can see rationally what christians and other theists infected with the parasitic meme can't see.

[Dunstan]

A couple of thoughts:

1. Theists generally believe in and promote a particular "story," whether that's literally the story of a holy book, or a more liberal/moderate/mushy/metaphorical story. When you're trying to sell a story, there's more pressure to lie, because you have to deal with inconvenient historical or scientific facts. Atheists don't have any particular story to sell, therefore there are fewer "ugly truths" for atheists to avoid or conceal.

2. The kind of atheists you're likely to encounter, especially on the internet, tend to be those who place a high value on truth. We want to know whether a god exists, we think it matters, and we're puzzled by the folks who think we should shut up about it so as not to offend people (or because "religion is here to stay anyway, so why bother"). Whereas, as others have pointed out, some theists are more inclined to place certain other priorities (saving souls, providing comfort, maintaining the group) ahead of truth.

[MG1962]

I think the key may lie in whether or not someone follows an evangelical version of their faith. It definitely seems more prevalent in the flavors of theism where conversion of others is a mandate.

I agree but I have seen it in the wider Christian faiths, much to my sadness

[MG1962]

Atheists or any non-theist can see rationally what christians and other theists infected with the parasitic meme can't see.

Your opinion on how a theist view faith has as much value as asking Helen Keller to list her top 5 Led Zeppelin songs....irrelevant

[~enigma~]

Your opinion on how a theist view faith has as much value as asking Helen Keller to list her top 5 Led Zeppelin songs....irrelevant
What exactly did I say about faith that is giving you a problem?

[MG1962]

What exactly did I say about faith that is giving you a problem?

Doesn't have anything to do with how strong faith is or isn't. It is simply a means used to spread the parasitic meme.

[~enigma~]

Doesn't have anything to do with how strong faith is or isn't. It is simply a means used to spread the parasitic meme.
Ok. Prove it wrong or admit that you can't and then admit that your views are as irrelevant as you idiotically claim mine are. You are the one who thinks lying has something to do with the strength of ones faith. I posted a bible verse that shows lying has nothing to do with faith.

ETA - How am I claiming anything about how a theist views faith? Are you feeling ok?

[Hokulele]

2. The kind of atheists you're likely to encounter, especially on the internet, tend to be those who place a high value on truth. We want to know whether a god exists, we think it matters, and we're puzzled by the folks who think we should shut up about it so as not to offend people (or because "religion is here to stay anyway, so why bother"). Whereas, as others have pointed out, some theists are more inclined to place certain other priorities (saving souls, providing comfort, maintaining the group) ahead of truth.


Quoted for truth.

[MG1962]

Ok. Prove it wrong or admit that you can't and then admit that your views are as irrelevant as you idiotically claim mine are. You are the one who thinks lying has something to do with the strength of ones faith. I posted a bible verse that shows lying has nothing to do with faith.

ETA - How am I claiming anything about how a theist views faith? Are you feeling ok?

I suggested it is one of the motivating factors. One I have had the displeasure of experiencing first hand

[~enigma~]

I suggested it is one of the motivating factors. One I have had the displeasure of experiencing first hand
I asked you to prove your statement and you didn't. Because you had the temerity to claim my statement was irrelevant and apparently you think yours is superior (although you can't prove it), I hope you understand why you are finally going on ignore.

[MG1962]

I asked you to prove your statement and you didn't. Because you had the temerity to claim my statement was irrelevant and apparently you think yours is superior (although you can't prove it), I hope you understand why you are finally going on ignore.

Well thats fine, if you find the need to make superiority and irrelevant somehow interchangeable, then perhaps that outcome is for the best

[Chimera]

I think one of the most troubling aspect of my defense of Mormonism specifically and theism in general was the propensity for deception and out right lies on behalf of belief in god and religion.



It seems like fundamentalist religious types almost have to lie to get people to stay. I mean, there's no evidence for their beliefs. All they have to go on is faith. People are beginning to demand more than that.

I think many of them are lying to themselves.

[!Kaggen]

Well thats fine, if you find the need to make superiority and irrelevant somehow interchangeable, then perhaps that outcome is for the best

When you claim your located at the center of the universe is this surprising?

[RandFan]

It seems like fundamentalist religious types almost have to lie to get people to stay. I mean, there's no evidence for their beliefs. All they have to go on is faith. People are beginning to demand more than that.

I think many of them are lying to themselves.I think there is a point to that. We want it to be true. We need it to be true so we lie to ourselves to keep it true.

I'd like to further the point made by ~enigma~. Religious meme's exploit aspects of the human psychology to make the individual protect and ensure the propigation of the meme. The ability to decieve one's self and others is but one of those aspects. Ted (completly heterosexual) Haggard comes to mind.

As I said in the OP. My deconversion was a very long journey that spanned decades and much soul searching. I honestly was very worried about simply the possibility that I could come to not believe.

[Marduk]

I've made that point abundantly clear and it is beside the point. Atheist are human and lie. Atheists are capable of lying for many reasons including ego. There is ample evidence that atheists have lied.

Not the point.

totally is the point, if youre not religious you understand that lying is a human trait and not belief specific.
if you are religious then the bible actually mentions lying as if its a good thing, and as we were created in Gods image it also means that he is a liar
In the case of mormonism its quite clear to anyone not gullible enough to believe it that Joseph Smith was probably the biggest liar in American history
After Nixon of course
:D
So lying is not belief specific, its just human, everyone does it. Especially Enigma
;)

[RandFan]

totally is the point...Totally isn't. It's my point. I ought to know. :)

...if youre not religious you understand that lying is a human trait and not belief specific.Not relevant. Again, I conceded that in the OP.

if you are religious then the bible actually mentions lying as if its a good thing...And it also mentions it's a bad thing. Very bad. Very, very bad.

...and as we were created in Gods image it also means that he is a liar...That could only be concluded conclusively by those incapable of understanding allegory and metaphor.

So lying is not belief specific, its just human, everyone does it. And still beside the point. Your point was conceded at the start in the hope that we didn't have to waste time on it. But thanks for failing to get that.

Yes, I agree, everyone does it. But what about the OP? Do you have an opinion on that?

[RandFan]

Marduk,

It's true that we are all capable of lying. The point that you are missing is that we don't all lie equally. Nor do all organizations or groups have equal motivation to lie.

The question is, is there anything inherent in religion to increase the likelyhood of deception?

If I posited the proposition that politicians and used car salesman were more likely to decieve than most would your response be "well, everyone lies"?

Really?

[tsig]

totally is the point, if youre not religious you understand that lying is a human trait and not belief specific.
if you are religious then the bible actually mentions lying as if its a good thing, and as we were created in Gods image it also means that he is a liar
In the case of mormonism its quite clear to anyone not gullible enough to believe it that Joseph Smith was probably the biggest liar in American history
After Nixon of course
:D
So lying is not belief specific, its just human, everyone does it. Especially Enigma
;)

It's always OK to lie to the heathens*. Gotta feed 'em milk til their ready for meat.

*atheists, kuffirs, gentiles.....

[Marduk]

Marduk,

It's true that we are all capable of lying. The point that you are missing is that we don't all lie equally. Nor do all organizations or groups have equal motivation to lie.

The question is, is there anything inherent in religion to increase the likelyhood of deception?



a lie to be big isn't dependant on the liar, its dependant on whos desperate enough to believe it, in the case of Joseph Smith he had a captive audience of people who were not happy with the available current belief systems. So a new one was a great idea, when that happens its not about the liar anymore, its about the human need for acceptance

I guess with religion anyone who is in a position of authority just has a bigger audience to gain converts from, having said that I know a few Mormons here in England and theyre great people, they don't believe most of the stuff that Joseph Smith lied about, they have accepted mormonism as being a way about how to live rather than what to believe, scientology does the same thing and christianity is a good example too, its not about the messenger and all about the message.

If lies are needed to get people living straight is it still bad ?

;)

If I posited the proposition that politicians and used car salesman were more likely to decieve than most would your response be "well, everyone lies"?

Really?
if there was just one honest politician or used car salesman I would have heard about it, it would create international headlines
http://www.fbi.gov/hogan/honestjims.jpg

why do you think this used car salesman is making a point about his honesty, why should you always be wary of people who state "I never lie"
same answer

[tsig]

snip

If lies are needed to get people living straight is it still bad ?



Yes

[~enigma~]

If lies are needed to get people living straight is it still bad ?


A lie is a lie regardless of the "morality" used to justify it. In the case of christianity it is just a method used to reproduce the meme in much the same way as sexual intercourse reproduces genes.

[Beth]

I've been reconstructing my journey from TBM (True Blue Mormon) to atheist and I've got to say it's an amazingly complex web of events and discoveries that was in no means linear.

I think one of the most troubling aspect of my defense of Mormonism specifically and theism in general was the propensity for deception and out right lies on behalf of belief in god and religion.

I'm not saying that atheists/secularists/humanists/etc., never lied or deceived, I'm saying that a.) from my perspective they were less likely and b.) they should have been more likely.

The bible says that "God cannot lie", "thou shalt not lie" and that "Satan is the father of all lies" yet I met people who actually made the argument that deception is valid to save people. Many Christians on the Internet are involved in deception to lower the ratings of atheist sites.

Now, one could argue that, being human, atheists also engage in inappropriate behavior but this seems like such an incredible cop out. Isn't theism supposed to engender better moral behavior not equivalent moral behavior?

It could be confirmation bias but it really seems to me that theists are more likely to engage in such deception as many of them think that they have a righteous purpose to do so. But I gotta say, it wasn't confirmation bias that led to my conclusion that many theists lied to further their beliefs when I was a theist.

So, given that faith isn't evidence based and so many are so confident as to the truth as to lie to improve the lie (http://3balls.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/3balls.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=129&p_created=1143733942) (the latter use of the word doesn't mean deception). Is theism inherently dishonest or am I simply counting the hits of one side and ignoring them of the other?

I don't think theism is inherently dishonest. I think you need to compare the percentage of non-theistic organizations that also engage in such behavior with the percentage of theistic organizations that do. Consider the pharma company in the news this week, paying a record fine regarding marketing off-label uses of their medications.

I do agree with the italicized sentence. OTOH, I find it comparable to complaints about skeptics who don't use critical thinking all the time. We're all human and nobody lives up to perfection regarding whatever creeds they espouse.

While not a Mormon, the religion I was raised in certainly seemed to turn a blind eye to clear contradictions in the Bible and did not welcome my questions. If that's included in what you mean by dishonest, I think there are certain types of religions that are worse than others, just as certain types of businesses are more prone to use deceptive advertising.

[Marduk]

Yes

so when you teach your children how to cross a road properly and you tell them its important if they don't pay attention they might get killed by a car, thats a bad thing ?

or how about "buy one get one free", isnt that a blatant lie used all the time in advertising, is that a bad thing ?
:p

really a lie is a lie, wether its bad or not depends on the circumstances under which it is presented

[~enigma~]

so when you teach your children how to cross a road properly and you tell them its important if they don't pay attention they might get killed by a car, thats a bad thing ?How is this a lie?

[Highly Selassie]

If lies are needed to get people living straight is it still bad ?

Yes. I would have more respect for an honest junkie grounded in a realistic worldview than for a deluded saint dedicated to falsities. But that's a value judgement based on the high value I place on truth.

[Marduk]

How is this a lie?

the vast majority of people killed on roads are not pedestrians

[Highly Selassie]

the vast majority of people killed on roads are not pedestrians

Non sequitur, and starting to drift off topic.

[~enigma~]

the vast majority of people killed on roads are not pedestrians
So? Are you saying that it is a lie to claim someone could get killed when crossing the street? What does any number have to do with this being a lie or not? It isn't a lie in any way shape or form. Are you to stubborn to admit you are wrong?

[~enigma~]

Non sequitur, and starting to drift off topic.
Not even an attempt to answer my question. Tells me he (or she) isn't genuine at all.

[Marduk]

So? Are you saying that it is a lie to claim someone could get killed when crossing the street? What does any number have to do with this being a lie or not? It isn't a lie in any way shape or form. Are you to stubborn to admit you are wrong?

the onus of proof is surely on the person making the statement, if you know for sure that your child will be killed crossing the road if they don't pay attention then its not a lie is it

but how are you going to prove that, precognition or time travel ?
:p

really youre just being an ass attempting to prove that all lying is bad, it isn't it depends on the circumstances. You claimed that all lying is bad, clearly thats just not true.

wiki has plenty of examples of when lying is not bad
Lie-to-children
A lie-to-children is a lie, often a platitude which may use euphemism(s), which is told to make an adult subject acceptable to children. A common example is "The stork brought you" (in reference to childbirth).
White lie
A white lie would cause only relatively minor discord if it were uncovered, and typically offers some benefit to the hearer. White lies are often used to avoid offense, such as complimenting something one finds unattractive. In this case, the lie is told to avoid the harmful realistic implications of the truth. As a concept, it is largely defined by local custom and cannot be clearly separated from other lies with any authority.
Noble lie
A noble lie is one which would normally cause discord if it were uncovered, but which offers some benefit to the liar and assists in an orderly society, therefore potentially beneficial to others. It is often told to maintain law, order and safety.
Emergency lie
An emergency lie is a strategic lie told when the truth may not be told because, for example, harm to a third party would result. For example, a neighbor might lie to an enraged wife about the whereabouts of her unfaithful husband, because said wife might reasonably be expected to inflict physical injury should she encounter her husband in person. Alternatively, an emergency lie could denote a (temporary) lie told to a second person because of the presence of a third.

so don't even attempt to tar me with your own ignorance
thanks

:D

[Marduk]

Not even an attempt to answer my question. Tells me he (or she) isn't genuine at all.

you didn't have a question, just a differing point of view that is incorrect, the fact that you claim to be NWO liason and claim to be at the centre of the universe are two good examples that you arent truthful

;)

[~enigma~]

the onus of proof is surely on the person making the statement, if you know for sure that your child will be killed crossing the road if they don't pay attention then its not a lie is itYou are just being an incorrigible jerk. I am putting you on ignore in order to preserve my sanity.

[Highly Selassie]

the onus of proof is surely on the person making the statement, if you know for sure that your child will be killed crossing the road if they don't pay attention then its not a lie is it

You didn't phrase it as a positive statement that the child will die. Here, I'll even quote exactly what you wrote...

so when you teach your children how to cross a road properly and you tell them its important if they don't pay attention they might get killed by a car, thats a bad thing ?

You said "might", not "will". But I think you've made it clear that you don't place much value on the truth or holding yourself to logical consistency, so I see no point in arguing this further.

[Marduk]

You didn't phrase it as a positive statement that the child will die. Here, I'll even quote exactly what you wrote...



You said "might", not "will". But I think you've made it clear that you don't place much value on the truth or holding yourself to logical consistency, so I see no point in arguing this further.
even might is stretching the truth which is still a lie
this isn't about me, I was making a statement that all humans lie, if youre pretending otherwise then youre a liar.

deal with it, or do you lie to yourself too
:D

[Marduk]

You are just being an incorrigible jerk. I am putting you on ignore in order to preserve my sanity.

youre worried that my lying will damage your sanity


thats a lie
so youre a liar, unless you have some proof that what you said is true
:D

[RandFan]

a lie to be big isn't dependant on the liar, its dependant on whos desperate enough to believe it, in the case of Joseph Smith he had a captive audience of people who were not happy with the available current belief systems. So a new one was a great idea, when that happens its not about the liar anymore, its about the human need for acceptance

I guess with religion anyone who is in a position of authority just has a bigger audience to gain converts from, having said that I know a few Mormons here in England and theyre great people, they don't believe most of the stuff that Joseph Smith lied about, they have accepted mormonism as being a way about how to live rather than what to believe, scientology does the same thing and christianity is a good example too, its not about the messenger and all about the message.

If lies are needed to get people living straight is it still bad ?
;)

if there was just one honest politician or used car salesman I would have heard about it, it would create international headlines
http://www.fbi.gov/hogan/honestjims.jpg

why do you think this used car salesman is making a point about his honesty, why should you always be wary of people who state "I never lie"
same answerI've not a clue as to what this has to do with the subject at hand.

Thanks though... I guess.

[Malerin]

"Do you haff any Jews hiding in your attack?"

I cannot tell a lie...

[Malerin]

I've been reconstructing my journey from TBM (True Blue Mormon) to atheist and I've got to say it's an amazingly complex web of events and discoveries that was in no means linear.

I think one of the most troubling aspect of my defense of Mormonism specifically and theism in general was the propensity for deception and out right lies on behalf of belief in god and religion.

I'm not saying that atheists/secularists/humanists/etc., never lied or deceived, I'm saying that a.) from my perspective they were less likely and b.) they should have been more likely.

The bible says that "God cannot lie", "thou shalt not lie" and that "Satan is the father of all lies" yet I met people who actually made the argument that deception is valid to save people. Many Christians on the Internet are involved in deception to lower the ratings of atheist sites.

Now, one could argue that, being human, atheists also engage in inappropriate behavior but this seems like such an incredible cop out. Isn't theism supposed to engender better moral behavior not equivalent moral behavior?

It could be confirmation bias but it really seems to me that theists are more likely to engage in such deception as many of them think that they have a righteous purpose to do so. But I gotta say, it wasn't confirmation bias that led to my conclusion that many theists lied to further their beliefs when I was a theist.

So, given that faith isn't evidence based and so many are so confident as to the truth as to lie to improve the lie (http://3balls.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/3balls.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=129&p_created=1143733942) (the latter use of the word doesn't mean deception). Is theism inherently dishonest or am I simply counting the hits of one side and ignoring them of the other?

With Mormonism, Scientology, and a lot of Christian denominations, I agree with you. I like what MG1962 had to say about the Amish. They seem pretty comfortable in their faith.

[RandFan]

I don't think theism is inherently dishonest. I think you need to compare the percentage of non-theistic organizations that also engage in such behavior with the percentage of theistic organizations that do. Consider the pharma company in the news this week, paying a record fine regarding marketing off-label uses of their medications.

I do agree with the italicized sentence. OTOH, I find it comparable to complaints about skeptics who don't use critical thinking all the time. We're all human and nobody lives up to perfection regarding whatever creeds they espouse.

While not a Mormon, the religion I was raised in certainly seemed to turn a blind eye to clear contradictions in the Bible and did not welcome my questions. If that's included in what you mean by dishonest, I think there are certain types of religions that are worse than others, just as certain types of businesses are more prone to use deceptive advertising.Thanks.

To what extent does religion engender *non-compartmentalized skepticism and critical thinking?

*Christians are skeptical of Islam and Muslims are skeptical of Christianity but they often leave their skepticism at the door of the church when the go in to hear about turning bread into flesh and Mohammad riding to heaven on a white horse.

I often hear secularists and scientific types encourage people to avoid dogmatic thinking about anything. There is no scientific dogma. All theories (gravity, atomic, germ, etc.) are provisional.

I've yet to see a good reason to put religious institutions and thought on par with non religious institutions and thought.

[RandFan]

With Mormonism, Scientology, and a lot of Christian denominations, I agree with you. I like what MG1962 had to say about the Amish. They seem pretty comfortable in their faith. Do the Amish believe that Mary's mother was a virgin when she concieved Mary (Immaculate conception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception)) or that Mary was a virgin when she concieved Jesus (Virgin Birth (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgin_birth_(mythology))).


What about Christ walking on water?
Water into wine?
The ten loaves and fish?
Mormonism might be out on a limb so to speak but not far. Once you say, "well, given an all powerful creator then anything is possible" then Mormonism is back on the table.

If you are going to be skeptical AND consistent you've got to go all the way.

[Marduk]

I've not a clue as to what this has to do with the subject at hand.

Thanks though... I guess.

its simple RandFan

everybody lies, its part of the human condition, a lies effectiveness is more dependant on the people hearing it than on the person doing it

thats all really, I don't know why people are surprised at that statement, I am surprised that people react so strongly when its pointed out to them that they are also human

:D

[RandFan]

its simple RandFan

everybody lies, its part of the human condition, a lies effectiveness is more dependant on the people hearing it than on the person doing itYes. Point conceded in the OP.

thats all really, I don't know why people are surprised at that statement...Thing is, no one is surprised at that statement. You are inventing a straw man.


I am surprised that people react so strongly when its pointed out to them that they are also human
S-T-R-A-W M-A-N

Say it with me. Remember, two simple words. "Straw Man".

There you go.

Now, let's try another.

I-R-R-E-L-E-V-A-N-T.

Ok, slowly now, ready? "Irrelevant".

Good job.

{whew}

Hopefully that dispenses with that.

Now, do you have something to say regarding the OP?

[Marduk]

Now, do you have something to say regarding the OP?

apart from the fact that its retarded and you should have been able to figure it out on your own without getting personal against people whos opinions youre asking for
nope, I have nothing more to say, apart from your claims of strawman were incorrect and so therfore "lies", perhaps you need to actually read your own thread
:D

[RandFan]

apart from the fact that its retarded and you should have been able to figure it out on your own...{sheesh}

One More Time.

IT WAS CONCEDED IN THE OP.

...without getting personal against people whos opinions youre asking for...But I dealt with that in the OP. I'm not asking for that opinion. You are off topic.

I have nothing more to say, apart from your claims of strawman were incorrect and so therfore "lies", perhaps you need to actually read your own threadTranslation: I (Marduk) was caught being dishonest so I'll continue in that vain.

[RandFan]

...without getting personal...FTR: I was patient with you. It was only after your refusal to respond in a meaningful way did I illustrate just how pointless your participation was.

So fine, go away. You've not advanced the discussion other than to serve as a great object lesson in dishonest discourse.

[Marduk]

{sheesh}

One More Time.

IT WAS CONCEDED IN THE OP.

But I dealt with that in the OP. I'm not asking for that opinion. You are off topic.

Translation: I (Marduk) was caught being dishonest so I'll continue in that vain.

how have I been dishonest, another lie from the ex mormon, your OP didn't say that everybody lies, it claimed that you expected certain groups to lie more than others, this in itself is just ignorant, all my posts to you in this thread have been pointing out that everyone lies, irregardless of belief, you obviously can't accept that as true, please post statistics that prove you weren't exaggerating or stretching the truth (both lies) or shut your whining
:D

[Marduk]

FTR: I was patient with you. It was only after your refusal to respond in a meaningful way did I illustrate just how pointless your participation was.

So fine, go away. You've not advanced the discussion other than to serve as a great object lesson in dishonest discourse.

I have told the truth all the way through this, how is that dishonest, maybe compared to your twisted view of people it may seem so, but that doesn't make it true any more than the crap you used to believe in
:D

now if you want to carry on with the ad hominems be my guest. I quite enjoy the discourse

[Esperdome]

Lieing is a very strong word that indicates an attempt to deceive at its base. I would prefer to call my theist friends deluded, (as I'm sure they think of me :)).

[RandFan]

I have told the truth all the way through this, how is that dishonest...You have refused to acknowledge a.) that your point was conceded in the OP and b.) you are creating a straw man (you are giving me a position that I do not hold).

In a word: Dishonest.

That everyone lies is not the subject of the thread nor does it address the OP. It's conceded that everyone lies. That fact doesn't address the OP.

[RandFan]

Lieing is a very strong word that indicates an attempt to deceive at its base. I would prefer to call my theist friends deluded, (as I'm sure they think of me :)).Yes, but some like Marduk here likely know of their deception. They perhaps deceive themselves and rationalize their deception (lying for Jesus) but it is intentional dishonesty nonetheless.

[RandFan]

how have I been dishonest... (see previous post)

...your OP didn't say that everybody lies...??? Did you even bother to read the OP?

I'm not saying that atheists/secularists/humanists/etc., never lied or deceived, I'm saying that a.) from my perspective they were less likely and b.) they should have been more likely.

Now, one could argue that, being human, atheists also engage in inappropriate behavior...Further I made the point clear in subsequent posts and you refused to acknowledge those.

That's dishonest.

That everyone lies is not the subject of the thread nor does it address the OP. It's conceded that everyone lies. That fact doesn't address the OP.

[RandFan]

I have told the truth all the way through this, how is that dishonest...

Well, let's see.

thats all really, I don't know why people are surprised at that statement, I am surprised that people react so strongly when its pointed out to them that they are also humanNo one in this thread has acted with surprise by that statement. That is a lie. No one has reacted strongly to THAT idea. That is also a lie.

:DWhatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

[Marduk]

(see previous post)

??? Did you even bother to read the OP?
.
I read it and reread it before posting just to be sure I hadnt made a mistake
ok so go ahead and post the extract where you state that you know everyone lies irregardless of belief

Further I made the point clear in subsequent posts and you refused to acknowledge those.

That's dishonest.

nope, you launched a load of pointless ad hominems rather than face the truth that your op is retarded, thats not me being dishonest, its just you being ignorant. You did it again by claiming I was being dishonest
this is dishonesty
1.Disposed to lie, cheat, defraud, or deceive.
2.Resulting from or marked by a lack of honesty.
not guilty, you by continuing to claim I am however means that you are

so hows it go, you got used to lying to yourself and others about your belief when you were a mormon and now your continuing that by attempting to claim the same for other beliefs "to a lesser or greater degree" in some vain attempt to guild your own past character

how very noble you are
:rolleyes:

[RandFan]

I read it and reread it before posting just to be sure I hadnt made a mistake...You've lousy reading comprehension.

I'm not saying that atheists/secularists/humanists/etc., never lied or deceived



nope, you launched a load of pointless ad hominems rather than face the truth that your op is retardedNow THAT is ad hominem.

[RandFan]

:rolleyes:Whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

how very noble you areI'm not trying to be noble. I'm trying to have a discussion.

[Marduk]

Whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.

.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emoticon

An emoticon is a textual portrayal of a writer's mood or facial expression. They are often used to alert a responder to the tenor or temper of a statement, and can change and improve interpretation of plain text.

so to recap, what does a smiling face mean when someone is talking to you
what if they are rolling their eyes
what about this one
;)

[RandFan]

so to recap, what does a smiling face mean when someone is talking to you
what if they are rolling their eyes
what about this one
;)I like smilies and emoticons. I use them myself but I think they are sometimes overused. :)

[Mister Agenda]

how have I been dishonest, another lie from the ex mormon, your OP didn't say that everybody lies, it claimed that you expected certain groups to lie more than others, this in itself is just ignorant, all my posts to you in this thread have been pointing out that everyone lies, irregardless of belief, you obviously can't accept that as true, please post statistics that prove you weren't exaggerating or stretching the truth (both lies) or shut your whining
:D

From this I am concluding that you are maintaining that every group is equally disposed to lie, regardless of belief or lack thereof. That is germaine to the OP. I guess the question now is on whom does the burden of proof lie, the person who observes different rates of lying in different groups or the person who does not note such a difference.

[tsig]

so when you teach your children how to cross a road properly and you tell them its important if they don't pay attention they might get killed by a car, thats a bad thing ?

or how about "buy one get one free", isnt that a blatant lie used all the time in advertising, is that a bad thing ?
:p

really a lie is a lie, wether its bad or not depends on the circumstances under which it is presented

How do I know you aren't lying to me right now depending on the circumstances?

[Beth]

Thanks.

To what extent does religion engender *non-compartmentalized skepticism and critical thinking?

*Christians are skeptical of Islam and Muslims are skeptical of Christianity but they often leave their skepticism at the door of the church when the go in to hear about turning bread into flesh and Mohammad riding to heaven on a white horse.

A good question. Assuming I had an answer (I don't), I also want to know to what extent does being active in a political party have on *non-compartmentalized skepticism and critical thinking? After all Democrats are skeptical of Republicans and vice versa.


I've yet to see a good reason to put religious institutions and thought on par with non religious institutions and thought.

Any particular reason to rank religious institutions significantly differently than corporations, educational institutions or political groups? Seems to me that all of them can vary from being sleazy frauds that just want your money to legitimate and helpful sources of information and like-minded people.

[Marduk]

From this I am concluding that you are maintaining that every group is equally disposed to lie, regardless of belief or lack thereof. That is germaine to the OP. I guess the question now is on whom does the burden of proof lie, the person who observes different rates of lying in different groups or the person who does not note such a difference.
thankyou, thats exactly what I'm saying
Well for my part there is a very well understood psychological phenomena known as Machiavellian intelligence, this covers

Making and breaking alliances
making and breaking promises
making and breaking rules;
lying and truth-telling;
blaming and forgiveness;
misleading and misdirection.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machiavellian_intelligence
this usually appears in humans at age 4,

everybody lies, anyone who says they don't is a liar, that being the case I don't see how anyone can claim one specific group lies more than any other as its impossible to record statistically. The bad news in respect of the OP is that (and this is only my opinion) creationists most likely lie less than other religious groups but only because self delusion isn't lying. Could the same be true of Mormonism ?
I think it has to be one way or the other, severe delusion or outright dishonesty, which is worse I wouldn't like to say but I would certainly find it hard to accept mormonism as a religion after the book of Abraham was proven to be faked by Joseph Smith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Abraham
;)
I used to have a pet theory that Mormonism was popular because of Polygamy, this was however before I had interacted with women much
:D

[tsig]

the onus of proof is surely on the person making the statement, if you know for sure that your child will be killed crossing the road if they don't pay attention then its not a lie is it

but how are you going to prove that, precognition or time travel ?
:p

really youre just being an ass attempting to prove that all lying is bad, it isn't it depends on the circumstances. You claimed that all lying is bad, clearly thats just not true.

wiki has plenty of examples of when lying is not bad


so don't even attempt to tar me with your own ignorance
thanks

:D

You seem to have dumped the tar bucket on yourself.

Why should anyone believe a word you write? You may be telling some sort of lie you have so many types of them.

[Marduk]

How do I know you aren't lying to me right now depending on the circumstances?

its a statement, I guess you have to determine if its factual on your own

I admit I have been known to lie on some occaisons, but its not compulsive,
:p

[Marduk]

You seem to have dumped the tar bucket on yourself.

Why should anyone believe a word you write? You may be telling some sort of lie you have so many types of them.
the types were from wiki
but
why would I care if anyone believes me or not, I'm expressing an opinion supported by evidence. I'm not promoting something.

[tsig]

why would I care if anyone believes me or not,

snip

Since you took the time to register and post here I thought you might want your posts to have some credibility otherwise you are just talking to yourself.

[RandFan]

A good question. Assuming I had an answer (I don't), I also want to know to what extent does being active in a political party have on *non-compartmentalized skepticism and critical thinking? After all Democrats are skeptical of Republicans and vice versa. :) :) :)

It's a great question. It's my position that political parties are woo.

Any particular reason to rank religious institutions significantly differently than corporations, educational institutions or political groups? Seems to me that all of them can vary from being sleazy frauds that just want your money to legitimate and helpful sources of information and like-minded people.Hmmm... that's another good question. I think Scientology is the best worst of both worlds.

Let me think about it. Off hand I'd say the degree of dogma and insistance on religious truth and authority over morality sets it apart. I think certainly there are many organization that are not religious in nature that are in fact sleezy and don't foster critical thinking.

It's a fair point.

[Marduk]

Since you took the time to register and post here I thought you might want your posts to have some credibility otherwise you are just talking to yourself.

thats a bit wide of the mark, I am the only one here pointing out that everyone lies under certain circumstances and you are attacking me for it, I would think its your credibility thats getting damaged for attacking what is obviously truthful, or is there some actual reason for your comment ?
perhaps you misunderstood what I said to you in my last post, if I really cared whether people continually thought I was lying whenever I posted I wouldn't post anything at all and wouldn't have joined. So no, I don't care if people believe me or not, its not even a factor I consider when I post something


;)

[Skeptic Ginger]

I think an underlying issue has to be resolved before you can discuss this subject. Does the term, lie, imply knowing deceit?

You see people in this forum frequently call someone's argument, dishonest. But often it is likely they are referring to some 'dishonest' argument the person making the argument isn't conscious of being dishonest. People commonly ignore all sorts of facts and especially facets of their religion but they do so unconsciously.

God is love, yadda yadda, means a person has to literally ignore more than half of the Bible to believe it. But I have no doubt that is what people do. So is someone who claims the Biblical god is forgiving, loving, et cetera lying, or just twisting their reality to fit their beliefs?

[Skeptic Ginger]

....

Hmmm... that's another good question. I think Scientology is the best worst of both worlds.
....I wonder at what level does the deceit in Scientology become conscious. In other words, the people at the top must know they are stealing from people, but the people being ripped off must believe they are not being ripped off. Where is the dividing line?

[RandFan]

I wonder at what level does the deceit in Scientology become conscious. In other words, the people at the top must know they are stealing from people, but the people being ripped off must believe they are not being ripped off. Where is the dividing line? :)

I love these kinds of threads.

Valid point. I think people delude themselves. If you watch Tory Christman Ex-Scientologist tell about her deconversion she says that she constructed the walls of her own "Truman Show" to keep the truth away.

http://www.torymagoo.org/video.htm

[skeptical]

In my experience, a lot of religious people continually "lie" to themselves by constructing mental edifices to keep out disconfirming evidence and information, they actively seek to keep themselves willfully ignorant.

To be sure, confirmation bias is prevalent among both the religious and non-religious, but I think it is only among the religious that it is systematically cultivated to an art form. People are continually told not to associate with unbelievers and are encouraged not to read certain books, see certain movies or listen to certain music. The encouragement is always on controlling the information and actions of the believer. This is, to me, in a sense an admission that these beliefs cannot stand up to basic scrutiny.

So do people really believe the things they tell others or are they lying? My feeling is that certainly some people do believe it, but I think many deep down have their doubts and are trying desperately to justify these beliefs to themselves by converting others and reinforcing the arguments to their own psyche. Is that lying? I don't know, but its not a honest search for reality.

[eccles]

I wonder at what level does the deceit in Scientology become conscious. In other words, the people at the top must know they are stealing from people, but the people being ripped off must believe they are not being ripped off. Where is the dividing line?

First lie of Scientologists is that it is a Religion. The reason L. Ron Hubbard called it a Religion is for the tax exemptions.



http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/338944a84aa90d2878.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17227)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/338944a927d97a44d4.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17396) Robert

[eccles]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_338944a8542b322573.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17250)


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/338944a8542e558740.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17251)

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/338944a927d97a44d4.png (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17396) Robert

[Cuddles]

In my experience, a lot of religious people continually "lie" to themselves by constructing mental edifices to keep out disconfirming evidence and information, they actively seek to keep themselves willfully ignorant.

Time to break out this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=132649) again?

[Skeptic Ginger]

Time to break out this thread (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=132649) again?That thread asks the question, "how many people who claim such belief really, in their heart of hearts, hold it." That addresses the degree of how fooled one is.

We often make the mistake of perceiving our brains as machine like. If one chooses to not consider some obvious fact, in reality we must 'know' somewhere deep inside that we are ignoring some fact of reality.

I don't think that's how our brains function. We take in the Universe via our senses, but once inside, the brain then constructs each individual's reality. That reality is actually a separate thing from the data that was inputted to develop it.

Certainly there are people who say they believe in gods and afterlives who are convinced to varying degrees about those stated beliefs. But what I am talking about are the people who have constructed a reality that is inconsistent with actual reality.

We all experience a truly individual reality. It's my belief that a rational scientific evidence based reality is very close to actual reality. But I am under no illusion that my individual reality has no flaws.

I am also convinced that lots of people, maybe even the majority of people, experience an individual reality that is quite different from actual reality. Because that is the nature of how the brain organizes and interprets incoming data, there are many people who don't realize they are telling falsehoods. They truly see their reality as they say, even if that reality is impossible because of obvious contradictions. Some people really cannot see the contradictions in their beliefs.

[godless dave]

I suspect much of the problem comes when you prioritize "faith", group identity, and conformity above being honest with yourself. If one has been conditioned to value faith in a particular set of beliefs above all else, then, when a conflict between telling the truth and conformity to the faith arises, conformity to the faith is usually going to win.

[Skeptic Ginger]

But how do you know, Dave, that the issue is being dishonest with oneself? Couldn't the issue just as easily be simply that one's brain takes in data and individual reality results? In other words, brains interpret the world, they don't simply record it.

Last night the Moon on the horizon looked especially large. This is an illusion because the brain doesn't just reflect what you see, it reflects what the brain interprets. If it interprets the Moon is close to you (because on the horizon that is what the brain interprets), it's not like you can consciously tell your brain to consider the Moon really is farther away than it appears.

But, if you cover one eye, then your brain interprets the Moon's size sans the 3D data. The Moon looks smaller. Try it. You can cover and uncover one eye when looking at the Moon on the horizon and see the difference. It is your brain doing that. You have little choice in the matter.

How many beliefs about the nature of the Universe are our brain's interpretation and how many are something we chose?

[Kahalachan]

I consider deception knowing reality and purposely stating or showing the opposite.

A joke can be deceptive by my definition, but it's needed for humor. A magic trick implies deception, but it's needed for entertainment.

So is all deception bad? No. Not all deception is bad. It's based on the intent.

So bad deception implies knowing reality and purposely saying the opposite as a method of persuasion or manipulation.


And this is why I don't think most theists engage in bad deception. They honestly think that their god is real. I think most Creationists and IDers are more delusional and less deceptive.

The ones who are actually deceptive, shame on them. I wish hell were real for them.

[rocketdodger]

The parasitic meme of christianity deems self replication of itself to be it's priority and a lie from it's host is a rather small price to pay if it results in a new host.

So does our meme -- all memes do, otherwise they do not last.

Hence the really interesting question is what does our meme do to insure replication?

I would say that our meme is simply clear about the fact that fully understanding reality is more of an advantage to the host than anything else, thereby insuring that the host will prefer memes that allow it to fully understand reality.

But this begs the question of whether a full understanding of reality will actually be more beneficial than a partial understanding, and I don't have an answer to that.

Although certainly it isn't hard to see that creatures with a full understanding of reality can surely survive better than those that do not.

[Skeptic Ginger]

So does our meme -- all memes do, otherwise they do not last.

Hence the really interesting question is what does our meme do to insure replication?

I would say that our meme is simply clear about the fact that fully understanding reality is more of an advantage to the host than anything else, thereby insuring that the host will prefer memes that allow it to fully understand reality.

But this begs the question of whether a full understanding of reality will actually be more beneficial than a partial understanding, and I don't have an answer to that.

Although certainly it isn't hard to see that creatures with a full understanding of reality can surely survive better than those that do not.It could also be that rationalism is merely associated with science which is a more successful strategy for humans than magical thinking. Modern medicine cures like prayer and magical rituals never could, for example.

The result is rational thinking should be naturally selected but it isn't necessarily that rational memes are directly selected.