Boom, boom, boom!

[mythstifieD]

Quick question..

I'm wondering if the fire fighters who are often shown talking on 9/11 describing the Boom-boom's ever followed up and explained what they were talking about in more detail? "It was like explosions, just boom boom boom boom boom! Floor by floor!" CTers are madly in love with this clip, I would appreciate some help on some background surrounding it.

[triforcharity]

The one that you are referencing is the Naudet brothers. It was immeadiatly after the collapse. Notice how he uses his hand to show the progression of the building? yep, not describing a CD. Also, he uses simile and hyperbole. It was LIKE. LIKE. Remember that word. Also, AS IF, I believed at the time is another one they like to quotemine.

here is the oral testamony of every firefighter who was at GZ during the attack.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Warning, so of it is quite graphic, and can be disturbing.

[oldhat]

Trusses giving way, weight shifting in the building.

Bodies of the people who jumped hitting the ground, too. :(

[BigAl]

Quick question..

I'm wondering if the fire fighters who are often shown talking on 9/11 describing the Boom-boom's ever followed up and explained what they were talking about in more detail? "It was like explosions, just boom boom boom boom boom! Floor by floor!" CTers are madly in love with this clip, I would appreciate some help on some background surrounding it.

Reading what they say in full, it's pretty clear that they are speaking of floors pancaking. There is certainly no hint that they believe they are hearing demolition charges.

Suggested reading: Report from Ground Zero by Dennis Smith.

You will learn an amazing amount about what firemen did and saw on and after 9/11.

[triforcharity]

Great book!! I don't read books often, but that one is certainly worth the read.

BTW, there are some amazing audio links on that page. I listened to the radio transmissions from that morning, and within 3 minutes, a firefighter says that it is a possible terrorist attack.

[RedIbis]

The one that you are referencing is the Naudet brothers. It was immeadiatly after the collapse. Notice how he uses his hand to show the progression of the building? yep, not describing a CD. Also, he uses simile and hyperbole. It was LIKE. LIKE. Remember that word. Also, AS IF, I believed at the time is another one they like to quotemine.

here is the oral testamony of every firefighter who was at GZ during the attack.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Warning, so of it is quite graphic, and can be disturbing.

The OP asks a yes or no question.

[RedIbis]

I don't read books often

You are serving up some Wakefield sized softballs tonight.

[oldhat]

The OP asks a yes or no question.

He asked for background on it.

[Sam.I.Am]

He gave a yes answer... What's your point?

[RedIbis]

He asked for background on it.

I'm wondering if the fire fighters who are often shown talking on 9/11 describing the Boom-boom's ever followed up and explained what they were talking about in more detail?

It's a fair question.

[mythstifieD]

The OP asks a yes or no question.

LOL, Right! Thanks everyone else but ALL I was looking for was "YES", nothing more! :rolleyes:

[RedIbis]

LOL, Right! Thanks everyone else but ALL I was looking for was "YES", nothing more! :rolleyes:

The yes would lead to a source. Then we could all see how the firefighters explained themselves.

[mythstifieD]

The one that you are referencing is the Naudet brothers. It was immeadiatly after the collapse. Notice how he uses his hand to show the progression of the building? yep, not describing a CD. Also, he uses simile and hyperbole. It was LIKE. LIKE. Remember that word. Also, AS IF, I believed at the time is another one they like to quotemine.

here is the oral testamony of every firefighter who was at GZ during the attack.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Warning, so of it is quite graphic, and can be disturbing.

Thank you! I wonder if there's a longer version of the clip, it seems "mined"

I mentioned that to a CTer I was debating this with.. "This is your evidence? They are saying LIKE, not WAS.. Yeah, it looked LIKE bombs, but that's a stretch from claiming they were saying it WAS bombs."

[triforcharity]

Yes, that is the answer there Red. I also gave a nice linkey to view more on the NYC firefighters' statements. This is called proof, or evidence.

I don't consider firefighter training manuals as reading a book. I do not consider reading paramedic training books as reading books. I am specifically saying I do not read many books that you would find at Barnes and Noble, or Books-a-Million. Sorry, I am just not that type of reader. I read some Tom Clancy, and Nelson DeMille, but not much else. But, I appreciate the personal attack.

PS, within 9 minutes, they are reporting jumpers.

[mythstifieD]

The one that you are referencing is the Naudet brothers. It was immeadiatly after the collapse. Notice how he uses his hand to show the progression of the building? yep, not describing a CD. Also, he uses simile and hyperbole. It was LIKE. LIKE. Remember that word. Also, AS IF, I believed at the time is another one they like to quotemine.

here is the oral testamony of every firefighter who was at GZ during the attack.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Warning, so of it is quite graphic, and can be disturbing.

Hrm, "Naudet" isn't listed on that link...?

[stateofgrace]

The yes would lead to a source. Then we could all see how the firefighters explained themselves.

Red, how many times are you going to flog this dead horse?

One, just name one that as stepped forward in support of a CD theory.

[mythstifieD]

Yes, that is the answer there Red. I also gave a nice linkey to view more on the NYC firefighters' statements. This is called proof, or evidence.

I don't consider firefighter training manuals as reading a book. I do not consider reading paramedic training books as reading books. I am specifically saying I do not read many books that you would find at Barnes and Noble, or Books-a-Million. Sorry, I am just not that type of reader. I read some Tom Clancy, and Nelson DeMille, but not much else. But, I appreciate the personal attack.

PS, within 9 minutes, they are reporting jumpers.

Yeah, I rarely read actual books these days, although I'm constantly... CONSTANTLY reading something.. I just love these sexy curves...

[BigAl]

Hrm, "Naudet" isn't listed on that link...?

The Naudet brothers were film makers, not firemen.

[Justin39640]

Hrm, "Naudet" isn't listed on that link...?

they were the ones (well one of them) who filmed the north tower getting hit (while the firemen are checking the manhole cover with their gas meter)

[triforcharity]

Thank you! I wonder if there's a longer version of the clip, it seems "mined"

I mentioned that to a CTer I was debating this with.. "This is your evidence? They are saying LIKE, not WAS.. Yeah, it looked LIKE bombs, but that's a stretch from claiming they were saying it WAS bombs."

It is not available online that I know of, as usually when it ends up on YouTube, it is removed as copyright infringement.

The film is simply called "9-11" by Gedeon and Jules Naudet, and if you google it, you will find many links to it. Amazon has it for sale. Recommended viewing. Its graphic at times though.

[WildCat]

The yes would lead to a source. Then we could all see how the firefighters explained themselves.
I see RedIbis is still pimping his "the firefighters thought there were bombs but were later told what to think" theory.

Only problem for RedIbis is not a single FDNY firefighter there that day is a truther. I gues they're all just a bunch of stupid cowardly rubes, not smart brave guys like RedIbis.

[Sam.I.Am]

The Naudet brothers were film makers, not firemen.

Pfiefer, Joseph (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110138.PDF). The Battalion Chief that they were filming is on that list.

[triforcharity]

Hrm, "Naudet" isn't listed on that link...?

Naudet isn't the guy in the video. I am not exactly sure who it is.

See post above. Its a documentary filmed by the naudet brothers.

[mythstifieD]

Pfiefer, Joseph (http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110138.PDF). The Battalion Chief that they were filming is on that list.

Much thanks!!

[BigAl]

It is not available online that I know of, as usually when it ends up on YouTube, it is removed as copyright infringement.

The film is simply called "9-11" by Gedeon and Jules Naudet, and if you google it, you will find many links to it. Amazon has it for sale. Recommended viewing. Its graphic at times though.


The Naudet film appears to be online in 6 parts. I can't recommend this film too highly, even for Red.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1uktl_911-by-the-naudet-brothers-1-of-6_events

[JohnG]

The yes would lead to a source. Then we could all see how the firefighters explained themselves.


Do you ever summon up the objectivity to wonder even for a second why the conspirators in your ill-defined scenario would plan and carry out such a bizarre and unwieldy scheme?

[RedIbis]

Do you ever summon up the objectivity to wonder even for a second why the conspirators in your ill-defined scenario would plan and carry out such a bizarre and unwieldy scheme?

Yes. But I don't think the mods would appreciate my indulging that derail.

[JohnG]

I guess I'll just add that to my list of questions that no Truther has ever had the brains or courage to answer.

[triforcharity]

I guess I'll just add that to my list of questions that no Truther has ever had the brains or courage to answer.

I bet you list is as long as my.....ummm......table. yeah, table...

[TruthersLie]

The OP asks a yes or no question.

I love how twoofs have horrendous reading comprehension skills (red pm me, and I can help you sign up for several great reading comprehension classes on line that my wife offers)

The very next section states, "I would appreciate some help on some background surrounding it." (that is an implied statement to please provide more information) Which is what is provided.

Reading for comprehension is your friend.

[bill smith]

The one that you are referencing is the Naudet brothers. It was immeadiatly after the collapse. Notice how he uses his hand to show the progression of the building? yep, not describing a CD. Also, he uses simile and hyperbole. It was LIKE. LIKE. Remember that word. Also, AS IF, I believed at the time is another one they like to quotemine.

here is the oral testamony of every firefighter who was at GZ during the attack.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html

Warning, so of it is quite graphic, and can be disturbing.

And for those people looking in on this eighth anniversary of 9/11 here is a scientific study of the firemen's sworn statements given on and around 9/11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study

[MysteryMammal]

And for those people looking in on this eighth anniversary of 9/11 here is a scientific study of the firemen's sworn statements given on and around 9/11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study

Let me get this right:

Because Firefighters used metaphor and simile there were explosions? I guess my car esploded during that collision years ago because, gosh-darnit, the impact sounded like a small 'splotion to me.

ProTip: Purposefully misrepresenting accounts made in a time of great physical and emotional stress and presenting it as evidence is often viewed as deceitful, devious and downright douchey.

[bill smith]

Let me get this right:

Because Firefighters used metaphor and simile there were explosions? I guess my car esploded during that collision years ago because, gosh-darnit, the impact sounded like a small 'splotion to me.

ProTip: Purposefully misrepresenting accounts made in a time of great physical and emotional stress and presenting it as evidence is often viewed as deceitful, devious and downright douchey.

Let's let the readers make up their pwn minds.They are not stupid.

[funk de fino]

The yes would lead to a source. Then we could all see how the firefighters explained themselves.

You could try NIST. They looked at all the witness testimonies and also re-interviewed some of the witness regarding the "sounded like explosions/bombs" claims. It was concluded those statements did not support explosives.

I know you will avoid doing any such thing though eh?

[MysteryMammal]

Let's let the readers make up their pwn minds.They are not stupid.

lolWUT?

No, seriously: What? Is this the way you want to play "debate"? You get to present stuff and no one else can counter it because to do so would be not letting "the readers make up their pwn [sic] minds"? If so, Bill, you might as well take your ball and go home because no one's going to follow your rewrite of the rules.

[leftysergeant]

And for those people looking in on this eighth anniversary of 9/11 here is a scientific study of the firemen's sworn statements given on and around 9/11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study

Scientific? Hog snot!

MacQueen hasn't a freaking clue what anybody is talking about. That stupid sack of crap thinks that Karen DeShore was talking about bombs when she described flames shooting up from the ground. She was talking about burning cars cooking off. Time for him to go back to the monestary and contemplate the sound of one hand clapping.

MaCQueen is a Buddhist theologian. I am a veteran fire fighter. I have read the oral histories that he quotes and quote mines to support his delusions. The conclusions the silly twit reaches are 100% CRAP.

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by RedIbis
The yes would lead to a source. Then we could all see how the firefighters explained themselves.


The three accessible sources we have are the NYT archives, the book, Report From Ground Zero, and the Naudet film. All have quotes form hundreds of firemen and lots of context for whet they said. Some of us know firemen that can add whatever they saw.


I've read the book and watched the film and read many of the statements in the archive in their entirety.

You haven't. Responding to you is a waste of time. I assume you get something out of it.


None of them say anything that supports man-made demolition.

Any name you might propose will be cherrypicked.

[leftysergeant]

Quick question..

I'm wondering if the fire fighters who are often shown talking on 9/11 describing the Boom-boom's ever followed up and explained what they were talking about in more detail?

I know his name is listed on screen somewhere in the Naudet film, but I do not have it available right now.

He was also shown on the Alan Miller "Patriots Question 9/11" web site, but I am even having trouble finding that now. Did Miller take a clue from the Rotch affair and pull it down?

[bill smith]

Scientific? Hog snot!

MacQueen hasn't a freaking clue what anybody is talking about. That stupid sack of crap thinks that Karen DeShore was talking about bombs when she described flames shooting up from the ground. She was talking about burning cars cooking off. Time for him to go back to the monestary and contemplate the sound of one hand clapping.

MaCQueen is a Buddhist theologian. I am a veteran fire fighter. I have read the oral histories that he quotes and quote mines to support his delusions. The conclusions the silly twit reaches are 100% CRAP.


Ssssh. Let's let the readers decide for themselves by viewing the videolink to the scientific study I posted.

[timhau]

Ssssh. Let's let the readers decide for themselves by viewing the videolink to the scientific study I posted.

It's a YouTube video. You can't magically turn it into a scientific study by calling it one.

Then again, if you knew the difference between a YouTube video and a scientific study, you probably wouldn't be a truther.

[bill smith]

It's a YouTube video. You can't magically turn it into a scientific study by calling it one.

Then again, if you knew the difference between a YouTube video and a scientific study, you probably wouldn't be a truther.

Don't you want the readers to decide for themselves ?

[kookbreaker]

Why is it that 'let the people decide' from the crankset always invariably means 'Let the people decide-but only after they've viewed my highly skewed & twisted propaganda with nary an ounce of critical input'?

[timhau]

Don't you want the readers to decide for themselves ?

What's the matter, you don't want an open discussion? You trying to silence criticism?

[Edx]

And for those people looking in on this eighth anniversary of 9/11 here is a scientific study of the firemen's sworn statements given on and around 9/11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study

At about 7 mins they appear to use the fraudulently edited collapse video with additional explosions. Can anyone confirm?

[bill smith]

At about 7 mins they appear to use the fraudulently edited collapse video with additional explosions. Can anyone confirm?

No, I think that that is the uthentic sound of the collapse. You can hear the 'popping'sounds the firemen described in their sworn testimony.

PS I can show you the faked version if you like ?


Oh all right then....here is the faked official version of the same video. Totally unmistakable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX9gdRST6zM&NR=1

[BigAl]

At about 7 mins they appear to use the fraudulently edited collapse video with additional explosions. Can anyone confirm?

If they were real, someone in the Truth Movement could make a factual mashup of the same instant from all the cameras in use at that instant, even if they weren't pointing up at the tower. The boom would be on all of them.

There was no such blast. There is no such video.

[VespaGuy]

You are serving up some Wakefield sized softballs tonight.

Since we're being pedantic, could you explain this metaphor? The only Wakefield I know is a knuckle-baller in the MLB, not a softball player. And since we all know how you love to play the "derail" card, you can go ahead and PM me.

Thanks

[Fjolle]

Oh all right then....here is the faked official version of the same video. Totally unmistakable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX9gdRST6zM&NR=1

How did the truther obtain the real video?
How come the boom boom stuff stops in the middle of the collapse?

[WildCat]

Boom boom boom boom...

hn_PF4L470w

[bill smith]

How did the truther obtain the real video?
How come the boom boom stuff stops in the middle of the collapse?

It's very nteresting actually. I believe that many of the core columns were completely melted from that point down making most of the rest of the collapse self-sustaining.

[leftysergeant]

It's very nteresting actually. I believe that many of the core columns were completely melted from that point down making most of the rest of the collapse self-sustaining.

You really need to seek help. There were no melted columns, that is all there is to that. There is no evidence that any of the core columns melted. No ingots of once molten and solidified steel were found. Anyone who tells you that there were is either lying or an utter whackjob.

Do you see where I am going with this?

[A W Smith]

You really need to seek help. There were no melted columns, that is all there is to that. There is no evidence that any of the core columns melted. No ingots of once molten and solidified steel were found. Anyone who tells you that there were is either lying or an utter whackjob.

Do you see where I am going with this?

and not a single column in the wreckage showing a melted end.

[bill smith]

You really need to seek help. There were no melted columns, that is all there is to that. There is no evidence that any of the core columns melted. No ingots of once molten and solidified steel were found. Anyone who tells you that there were is either lying or an utter whackjob.

Do you see where I am going with this?

We were just discussing this a day or two ago.

'' I think we see evidence of ten or fifteen thousand tons of molten steel under the rubble. I believe that many core columns were entirely melted (up to a certain height) and the molten steel dropped down into the basement before the building came down altogether. that would give a logical explanation for the heat of the pile for so long. Little else will.''

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=144954&page=27

[leftysergeant]

No, I think that that is the uthentic sound of the collapse. You can hear the 'popping'sounds the firemen described in their sworn testimony.

You hear what some low-borncurse on humanity edited into the film. You hear something that never occurred in THIS time/space continuum. You hear, toward the end of it, the voice of Michael Hezarkhani, taken from the video that he shot of the impact of the aircraft into the building long prior to the collapse. You also hear the voices of the same women who were screaming around Hezarkhani as he filmed the impact.

You hear, in other words, utter BS. Do you understand what I am telling you? Tell me if you missed a point somewhere.


Oh all right then....here is the faked official version of the same video. Totally unmistakable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IX9gdRST6zM&NR=1

You got it bass ackwards. This is the REAL sound track from that video. You do not hear the voice of people who were miles away from the scene. You hear the voices of male fire fighters saying exactly the sorts of things you would expect them to say in an "OH! {BLEEP!}" scenario like that.

And that silly little theologian who thinks he is fit to be a forensic scientist couldn't figure that out. Who needs that vapid twit? Time for him to go back to the monestary where he can't hurt anyone.

[Newtons Bit]

and not a single column in the wreckage showing a melted end.

And the volume of thermite would need to be immense.

[A W Smith]

We were just discussing this a day or two ago.

'' I think we see evidence of ten or fifteen thousand tons of molten steel under the rubble. I believe that many core colums were entirely melted (up to a certain height) and the molten steel dropped down into the basement before the building came down altogether. that would give a logical explanation for the heat of the pile for so long. Little else will.''

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=144954&page=27


Are you being stupid on purpose? because no one is that stupid. That would give a logical explanation for all the ignorance in your pile of brain cells for so long. Little else will.

[bill smith]

You hear what some low-borncurse on humanity edited into the film. You hear something that never occurred in THIS time/space continuum. You hear, toward the end of it, the voice of Michael Hezarkhani, taken from the video that he shot of the impact of the aircraft into the building long prior to the collapse. You also hear the voices of the same women who were screaming around Hezarkhani as he filmed the impact.

You hear, in other words, utter BS. Do you understand what I am telling you? Tell me if you missed a point somewhere.




You got it bass ackwards. This is the REAL sound track from that video. You do not hear the voice of people who were miles away from the scene. You hear the voices of male fire fighters saying exactly the sorts of things you would expect them to say in an "OH! {BLEEP!}" scenario like that.

And that silly little theologian who thinks he is fit to be a forensic scientist couldn't figure that out. Who needs that vapid twit? Time for him to go back to the monestary where he can't hurt anyone.

I am very happy for all those readers on this eighth anniversary of 9/11 to see the grim Truth and decide which of the two videos is the fake. Let's let them decide for themselves Sarge.

[leftysergeant]

We were just discussing this a day or two ago.

'' I think we see evidence of ten or fifteen thousand tons of molten steel under the rubble. I believe that many core colums were entirely melted (up to a certain height) and the molten steel dropped down into the basement before the building came down altogether. that would give a logical explanation for the heat of the pile for so long. Little else will.''

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=144954&page=27

That link leads to nothing relevant to the blather it followed.

[leftysergeant]

I am very happy for ll those readers on this eighth anniversary of 9/11 to see the grim Truth and decide which of the two videos is the fake. Let's let them decide for themselves Sarge.

Just pointing out that the twoofers have no clue how to analyze video or audio.

I sometimes wonder how some even manage to get their pants on with the zippers in front.

[BigAl]

Originally Posted by bill smith
We were just discussing this a day or two ago.

'' I think we see evidence of ten or fifteen thousand tons of molten steel under the rubble. I believe that many core colums were entirely melted (up to a certain height) and the molten steel dropped down into the basement before the building came down altogether. that would give a logical explanation for the heat of the pile for so long. Little else will.''

And that would require 30,000 tons of therm-anything. That's 300,000 cubic feet of therm stuff or about 400 tractor-trailor loalds.

And nobody noticed.

[bill smith]

Just pointing out that the twoofers have no clue how to analyze video or audio.

I sometimes wonder how some even manage to get their pants on with the zippers in front.

Considering that the fakery is completely obvious Sarge I think our concerned citizen readers might be thinking it over eh ?

[Lupie]

Let's let the readers make up their pwn minds.They are not stupid.

I watched the video and made up my own mind. Taking audio or video clips and creating a video with them that causes them to be taken completely out of context proves nothing other than the truth movement's willingness to use manipulative, dishonest tactics to further their agenda. Sorry Bill.

L.

[bill smith]

That link leads to nothing relevant to the blather it followed.

Thanks Sarge. It was the wrong link. Here's the right one.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=152170&page=4

[bill smith]

I watched the video and made up my own mind. Taking audio or video clips and creating a video with them that causes them to be taken completely out of context proves nothing other than the truth movement's willingness to use manipulative, dishonest tactics to further their agenda. Sorry Bill.

L.

But you are a debunker, professional or otherwise and not an innocent civilian.

[Lupie]

But you are a debuunker, professionl or otherwise and not an innocent civilian.

Come on Bill, I did exactly what you asked people to do, and my opinion is simply different than yours. Since I come here and agree with other people who are considered Debunkers, I readily accept that title for myself as well. But since you have no idea what my profession is, you don't get to comment on it. And you say I am not "an innocent civilian", am I to conclude that you think I am somehow guilty of something? Do you really want to accuse someone you know almost nothing about of commiting a crime? Why, because we don't agree?

L.

[funk de fino]

But you are a debunker, professional or otherwise and not an innocent civilian.

Tread carefully Bill or be reported.

[beachnut]

And for those people looking in on this eighth anniversary of 9/11 here is a scientific study of the firemen's sworn statements given on and around 9/11.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ4dVo5QgYg Firemen's Testimony- Study
Another post of delusional lies. Nothing new.

The boom, boom, boom was the collapse of each floor. Poor bill, she does not know what a simile is.

[NutCracker]

Don't you want the readers to decide for themselves ?

Yes, Bill, the ignorant nonsense you and your fellow clowns spout, and science are on equal footing.

[bill smith]

Come on Bill, I did exactly what you asked people to do, and my opinion is simply different than yours. Since I come here and agree with other people who are considered Debunkers, I readily accept that title for myself as well. But since you have no idea what my profession is, you don't get to comment on it. And you say I am not "an innocent civilian", am I to conclude that you think I am somehow guilty of something?

L.

that depends on whether you are a professional debunker or not as I said.

[leftysergeant]

Thanks Sarge. It was the wrong link. Here's the right one.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=152170&page=4

Thank you. That one took me straight to another pile of utter hogwash, but at least it was utter hogwash that sounded like you thought you had made a point about melted coilumns.

You didn't.

Your truckload of FAIL is on its way.

[bill smith]

Tread carefully Bill or be reported.

Why for Funk ? Make your case.

[funk de fino]

Why for Funk ? Make your case.

I bolded it mate, pretty easy for you to see it.

[bill smith]

Thank you. That one took me straight to another pile of utter hogwash, but at least it was utter hogwash that sounded like you thought you had made a point about melted coilumns.

You didn't.

Your truckload of FAIL is on its way.

Why don't you sound convincing ? lol

[bill smith]

I bolded it mate, pretty easy for you to see it.

You'll need to do better than that Councelor.

[Lupie]

that depends on whether you are a professional debunker or not as I said.

You think because I come here and comment on the events of 9/11 from time to time that I somehow make my living doing this? Come on Bill, it's an internet discussion forum for pete's sake. So what do you think I am guilty of?

L.

[bill smith]

You think because I come here and comment on the events of 9/11 from time to time that I somehow make my living doing this? Come on Bill, it's an internet discussion forum for pete's sake. So what do you think I am guilty of?

L.

Well I know that many forums are crawling with government agents of one kind or another. So logically some of the debunkers I deal with fall into that category. You may or may not be one such.

[Lupie]

Well I know that many forums are crawling with government agents of one kind or another. So logically some of the debunkers I deal with fall into that category. You may or may not be one such.

Are you kidding, or are you really that paranoid? I'll ask you again what I am guilty of.

[bill smith]

Are you kidding, or are you really that paranoid? I'll ask you again what I am guilty of.

If you are not a government agent than you are not guilty of anything. If you were a government agent paid debunker then you would be guilty of defending the governrmt lie and maliciously misinforming the public . (In my opinion of course) I think that is clear enough.

[Lupie]

If you are not a government agent than you are not guilty of anything. If you were a government agent paid debunker then you would be guilty of defending the governrmt lie and maliciously misinforming the public . (In my opinion of course) I think that is clear enough.

You know, I could really have some fun with you Bill. If you knew what I do for a living, you would probably have full tilt paranoid meltdown. The funny part is, what I know you would automatically assume about what I do for a living, would still be completely wrong. But, I'll spare you the mental anguish, you already have alot to worry about with all those agents you already "know" about.

L.

[funk de fino]

You'll need to do better than that Councelor.

You are accusing a fellow member of not being an innocent civilian. Tread carefully.

[funk de fino]

If you are not a government agent than you are not guilty of anything. If you were a government agent paid debunker then you would be guilty of defending the governrmt lie and maliciously misinforming the public . (In my opinion of course) I think that is clear enough.

That is a lie because your post said otherwise. Now you are pathetically bactracking.

But you are a debunker, professional or otherwise and not an innocent civilian.

That post states that whether you are a professional or a non professional that you are not an innocent civilian because you are a debunker.

run along

[beachnut]

You'll need to do better than that Councelor.
When you are not posting lies you are posting tripe about nothing. 8 years and you can't figure out 911 which was figured out on 911 in minutes by Passengers on Flight 93 who took action. All you do is post lies and get side tracked on your quest to post the most lies you can.

The OP is about the boom, boom, boom, not some idiotic tripe you find on the internet filled with lies. Each floor failing caused a loud boom. The best you can do is post videos with lies and act paranoid claiming JREF members are paid to post the truth and expose you as a knowledge free liar on 911.

[bill smith]

You know, I could really have some fun with you Bill. If you knew what I do for a living, you would probably have full tilt paranoid meltdown. The funny part is, what I know you would automatically assume about what I do for a living, would still be completely wrong. But, I'll spare you the mental anguish, you already have alot to worry about with all those agents you already "know" about.

L.

Feel free to have fun with me at your own discretion. Now I am intigued about what you do..

[bill smith]

That is a lie because your post said otherwise. Now you are pathetically bactracking.



That post states that whether you are a professional or a non professional that you are not an innocent civilian because you are a debunker.

run along

This is my definition of 'innocent'.

innocent,adj......def...[Not knowledgeable about something specified]

No problemo.

[HawksFan]

Well, I consider myself an "innocent civilian" and that was a load of crapola bigger than the load of thermite required to do what you think happened.

What say you, Billie Two Shoes?

[bill smith]

When you are not posting lies you are posting tripe about nothing. 8 years and you can't figure out 911 which was figured out on 911 in minutes by Passengers on Flight 93 who took action. All you do is post lies and get side tracked on your quest to post the most lies you can.

The OP is about the boom, boom, boom, not some idiotic tripe you find on the internet filled with lies. Each floor failing caused a loud boom. The best you can do is post videos with lies and act paranoid claiming JREF members are paid to post the truth and expose you as a knowledge free liar on 911.

Professor McQueen makes explicitly clear that he does not include a 'boom,boom,boom' sound as an explosion descriptor. Please see the video in this hyperlink for more details.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5095470&postcount=31

[beachnut]

Professor McQueen makes explicitly clear that he does not include a 'boom,boom,boom' sound as an explosion descriptor. Please see the video in this hyperlink for more details.

http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5095470&postcount=31
Yes your video of lies is great if you like moronic conspiracy theories. You are the go to source for lies and delusions on 911. You win posting the biggest lies on 911.

If you were to do any rational work or research on 911 it would be a surprise.

[mythstifieD]

*smirks* wow, what a poop-storm I caused... ;)

[bill smith]

Yes your video of lies is great if you like moronic conspiracy theories. You are the go to source for lies and delusions on 911. You win posting the biggest lies on 911.

If you were to do any rational work or research on 911 it would be a surprise.
What you mean by 'doing rational work' in fact means accepting the government lies about 9/11 wholesale. Why should I do that when a mjority of the 9/11 Commission itself have already said that the government is lying about 9/11 ?

[mythstifieD]

What you mean by 'doing rational work' in fact means accepting the government lies about 9/11 wholesale. Why should I do that when a mjority of the 9/11 Commission itself have already said that the government is lying about 9/11 ?

Of course they are about some details, it's a pretty big national security issue. Where does a single Commissioner talk about Inside Job?

[Dumb All Over]

Yes. But I don't think the mods would appreciate my indulging that derail.
Finally, after all these years, a truther willing to come forward and piece together a 9-11 scenario! Bravo!

Red, so many posters here have been waiting for this information for so long. Instead of "just asking questions", how refreshing it is to, once and for all, anticipate an actual scenario. If the mods were aware that you are ready to state your case, I'm sure they would overlook a little derail.

Maybe a mod would like to chime-in and assure Red that, given this new revelation, a derail would be quite in order.

Have at it, Red.

[beachnut]

What you mean by 'doing rational work' in fact means accepting the government lies about 9/11 wholesale. Why should I do that when a mjority of the 9/11 Commission itself have already said that the government is lying about 9/11 ?
This is a skeptic forum and you spew lies made up by other people and you fail to be skeptical of the lies you post.

The JREF poster signed up to a skeptic forum, you made a mistake and bring lies and prove you are not a skeptic. Why are you here posting lies?

I don't need the government story of 911 and your story is a big lie. I am able to see your lies so easy. The fact is 19 terrorists like 8 pilots and flew 4 planes into buildings or they failed and flew the plane into the ground because a few Americans are capable of figuring out 911 in minutes. You have had 8 years and you can't get one thing right save the date of 911.

You are making up more lies. Why are you evidence free and so ignorant on 911 issues.

You have proved you are unable to present any evidence. You are an open-loop poster of lies; not skeptical of a single lie you post; unable to make reality based posts. Void of critical thinking as you fall for each lie on 911 as if it were new.

[WildCat]

Finally, after all these years, a truther willing to come forward and piece together a 9-11 scenario! Bravo!

Red, so many posters here have been waiting for this information for so long. Instead of "just asking questions", how refreshing it is to, once and for all, anticipate an actual scenario. If the mods were aware that you are ready to state your case, I'm sure they would overlook a little derail.

Maybe a mod would like to chime-in and assure Red that, given this new revelation, a derail would be quite in order.

Have at it, Red.
I guarantee you that if you started a new thread just for RedIbis to tell us his theory he wouldn't post in it. That's the way RedIbis rolls. Fly away when the going gets tough.

[bill smith]

Of course they are about some details, it's a pretty big national security issue. Where does a single Commissioner talk about Inside Job?

I'm glad to see that you agree that the government is lying about 9/11. That puts us pretty much on he same side then . So what about the new 9/11 enquiry then ? Obviously we cannot have them lying about something that has led to the deaths of so many people round the world and all he rest of it.

[beachnut]

I'm glad to see that you agree that the government is lying about 9/11. That puts us pretty much on he same side then . So what about the new 9/11 enquiry then ? Obviously we cannot have them lying about something that has led to the deaths of so many people round the world and all he rest of it.
The biggest liar about 911 is you; your reposting lies of other people clueless on 911 makes you unique in lacking knowledge, logic and other skill to form rational conclusions on 911.

[mythstifieD]

I'm glad to see that you agree that the government is lying about 9/11. That puts us pretty much on he same side then . So what about the new 9/11 enquiry then ? Obviously we cannot have them lying about something that has led to the deaths of so many people round the world and all he rest of it.

I should probably clarify... I'm sure there are many CLASSIFIED issues surrounding 9/11. That being said, a further inquiry will just be brick walled by the same classified issues.

[bill smith]

I should probably clarify... I'm sure there are many CLASSIFIED issues surrounding 9/11. That being said, a further inquiry will just be brick walled by the same classified issues.

That's why we will have so-called 'sledgehammer' subpoena power. We will make them bricks just fly.

[mythstifieD]

That's hy we will have so-called 'sledgehammer' subpoena power. We will make them bricks just fly.

So you think there's never a good reason to classify things?

[bill smith]

So you think there's never a good reason to classify things?

Occasionally but we will allow the independent investigators to assess what is worthy of classification and what is not.

[mythstifieD]

Occasionally but we will allow the independent investigators to assess what is worthy of classification and what is not.

And who would you nominate to be "independent"?

[bill smith]

And who would you nominate to be "independent"?

We will have to see when the time comes. That debate should have started some time ago. The composition and terms of the enquiry will be very difficult.

[WildCat]

That's why we will have so-called 'sledgehammer' subpoena power. We will make them bricks just fly.
What would you subpoena?

[mythstifieD]

We will have to see when the time comes. That debate should have started some time ago. The composition and terms of the enquiry will be very difficult.

Well, since you seem to think any one who does a test unfavourable to your theory is a shill, I imagine by Independent you want the AE911T to do it? Or who? Who can do such a test that will satisfy the truthers whether the results are positive OR negative?

[dudalb]

And the volume of thermite would need to be immense.


Not if was that Sooper Sekrit Nano Thermite....

[bill smith]

What would you subpoena?

I haven't actually thought about that yet. It sounds like a banquet though.

[dudalb]

That's why we will have so-called 'sledgehammer' subpoena power. We will make them bricks just fly.


We can add legal procedure to the long list of things bill smith knows nothing about.

[bill smith]

Well, since you seem to think any one who does a test unfavourable to your theory is a shill, I imagine by Independent you want the AE911T to do it? Or who? Who can do such a test that will satisfy the truthers whether the results are positive OR negative?

I doubt that this enquiry can be like any other enquiry there has been. The mould will have to be broken and something altogether different designed.

[dudalb]

I doubt that this enquiry can be like any other enquiry there has been. The mould will have to be broken and something altogether different designed.

Uh, the legal system does not work like that, pal.
Kangaroo courts will not get off the ground in the US.
Oh Lash L, Great Goddess Of Legaltainment, we need you...

[Audible Click]

BillSmith I'm an "innocent civilian" and I consider you and your ilk to be the agents of half truths,lies,and failed theories. You certainly can't claim the moral high ground and accuse the posters in this sub forum of being shills in the pay of the U.S. Government, when you do that you are trying to quash honest debate. I'm sure that's what you'd like but that won't happen. Did you forget that one of your leaders, Alex Jones, posted an interview with the POTUS and Charlie Sheen that stood for ninety minutes before it had a disclaimer added? (that it was a fake) These are the people you look up to, maybe think about that for awhile.

[dtugg]

bill smith is actually the government agent. He's paid to make twoofers look as stupid and crazy as possible. Right, bs?

[dudalb]

bill smith is actually the government agent. He's paid to make twoofers look as stupid and crazy as possible. Right, bs?

Or he is just a troll jerking our chain.

[mythstifieD]

I doubt that this enquiry can be like any other enquiry there has been. The mould will have to be broken and something altogether different designed.

Why I bother debating with someone demanding a new enquiry (sic) to 9/11, I don't know.

The problem is that there has been a full and detailed inquiry by seasoned experts and they have dispelled any notions of inside job. You refuse to believe them because you are more educated, clever, arrogant than they are.

[funk de fino]

This is my definition of 'innocent'.

innocent,adj......def...[Not knowledgeable about something specified]

No problemo.

You are a liar and a coward. You accused the fellow member of not being an innocent civilian, now apologise.

[bill smith]

You are a liar and a coward. You accused the fellow member of not being an innocent civilian, now apologise.

If I was not wearing my red shoes I would challenge you to a duel for that Funk.

[Audible Click]

If I was not wearing my red shoes I would challenge you to a duel for that Funk.

Just click the heels of your red shoes three times and say: "There's no place like home." ("Home" being sanity.)

[alienentity]

We were just discussing this a day or two ago.

'' I think we see evidence of ten or fifteen thousand tons of molten steel under the rubble. I believe that many core columns were entirely melted (up to a certain height) and the molten steel dropped down into the basement before the building came down altogether. that would give a logical explanation for the heat of the pile for so long. Little else will.''

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=144954&page=27

There's 15,000 tons for you bill. Now, melt that down, and hide it from the authorities, quick!! maybe no one will notice!:D

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_304704a90143bdd9ff.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17384)

[beachnut]

bill smith is actually the government agent. He's paid to make twoofers look as stupid and crazy as possible. Right, bs?
And she is very good at her job.



slighty back on topic,
boom, boom, boom... why am I thinking about fergie ...

oops where is the pow? UIK-U6ZfyYE

[DGM]

bill smith is actually the government agent. He's paid to make twoofers look as stupid and crazy as possible. Right, bs?
Make that she and your right. How else could her posts be explained?

[bill smith]

There's 15,000 tons for you bill. Now, melt that down, and hide it from the authorities, quick!! maybe no one will notice!:D

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_304704a90143bdd9ff.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17384)

Let's face it AE there is absolutely no other possible explanation for the massive heat in the pile for three months. Fires of any kind won't cut it- the fuel just isn't there for a fire. smouldering or otherwise to burn so hot and for so long.

It's got to be a massive pool of molten iron as described.

[SpitfireIX]

Let's face it AE there is absolutely no other possible explanation for the massive heat in the pile for three months. Fires of any kind won't cut it- the fuel just isn't there for a fire. smouldering or otherwise to burn so hot and for so long.

It's got to be a massive pool of molten iron as described.


Please state your qualifications in thermodynamics to make such a pronouncement.

[BigAl]

Make that she and your right. How else could her posts be explained?

It's some grad student's experiment in computer generated dialog. He's using us as a willing generator of intelligent content which his software is reflecting back at us in ways that fit the goals of the research project.

The first software to try this was ELIZA which is now so old that it is probably getting Social Security.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA


This is related to the Turing Test
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

On the other hand, maybe we are being tested.

[alienentity]

Let's face it AE there is absolutely no other possible explanation for the massive heat in the pile for three months. Fires of any kind won't cut it- the fuel just isn't there for a fire. smouldering or otherwise to burn so hot and for so long.

It's got to be a massive pool of molten iron as described.

No bill, I won't accept that false analysis. Your idea is already falsified because no such giant pools of molten metal were ever discovered, so will you get off it already?

And can you give a scientific reason why
1) there wasn't enough fuel in the piles to burn for a long while
2) fires of any kind (even produced by thermite?) won't cut it.

I'm just kidding with you. I know you don't have a scientific reason. Just playin'. Relax and keep twoofin'. (sung to the tune of 'keep truckin')

[alienentity]

It's some grad student's experiment in computer generated dialog. He's using us as a willing generator of intelligent content which his software is reflecting back at us in ways that fit the goals of the research project.

The first software to try this was ELIZA which is now so old that it is probably getting Social Security.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA


On the other hand, maybe we are being tested.

It fits:
Algorithm: BS
Density setting: Maximum:D

[bill smith]

It's some grad student's experiment in computer generated dialog. He's using us as a willing generator of intelligent content which his software is reflecting back at us in ways that fit the goals of the research project.

The first software to try this was ELIZA which is now so old that it is probably getting Social Security.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA


This is related to the Turing Test
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

On the other hand, maybe we are being tested.

SAMIRA7 AI unit 4256

LOG

[DGM]

It's some grad student's experiment in computer generated dialog. He's using us as a willing generator of intelligent content which his software is reflecting back at us in ways that fit the goals of the research project.

The first software to try this was ELIZA which is now so old that it is probably getting Social Security.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELIZA


This is related to the Turing Test
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turing_test

On the other hand, maybe we are being tested.
Well I hope so! Because if this is a real person..........(I think it violates the MA to say so I won't).

[bill smith]

No bill, I won't accept that false analysis. Your idea is already falsified because no such giant pools of molten metal were ever discovered, so will you get off it already?

And can you give a scientific reason why
1) there wasn't enough fuel in the piles to burn for a long while
2) fires of any kind (even produced by thermite?) won't cut it.

I'm just kidding with you. I know you don't have a scientific reason. Just playin'. Relax and keep twoofin'. (sung to the tune of 'keep truckin')

No sweat. This is just in developement.

[beachnut]

Let's face it AE there is absolutely no other possible explanation for the massive heat in the pile for three months. Fires of any kind won't cut it- the fuel just isn't there for a fire. smouldering or otherwise to burn so hot and for so long.

It's got to be a massive pool of molten iron as described.
What made the massive pool of molten iron? Remember all you truthers say steel and iron wick away the heat to some other black-hole sun or some nonsense, so you guys can't have molten iron because it wicks away the heat. To insist on massive pool of molten iron you must give up the wick away heat argument and thus become a super-nano-troll posting lies as fast as you can find them on 911. Where do you get the lies-only google search engine?

You have never burned a massive pile of leaves for days!
You have never seen a few logs give off heat for two days in a wood stove.

What happened on 911 was over 220 floors of stuff was buried in a 5 to 7 story high pile of office junk. That 220 acres of office material burned for months. I have a small amount of wood (paper is made out of wood btw) I burn and it lasts all winter it only takes a space of a small office to store all my wood which heats my house all winter. I could store about 10 years of wood to heat my house on an acre so the WTC contents burning for a few months, or several months is not amazing; your inability to understand fire is amazing display of pure willful ignorance.

[bill smith]

What made the massive pool of molten iron? Remember all you truthers say steel and iron wick away the heat to some other black-hole sun or some nonsense, so you guys can't have molten iron because it wicks away the heat. To insist on massive pool of molten iron you must give up the wick away heat argument and thus become a super-nano-troll posting lies as fast as you can find them on 911. Where do you get the lies-only google search engine?

You have never burned a massive pile of leaves for days!
You have never seen a few logs give off heat for two days in a wood stove.

What happened on 911 was over 220 floors of stuff was buried in a 5 to 7 story high pile of office junk. That 220 acres of office material burned for months. I have a small amount of wood (paper is made out of wood btw) I burn and it lasts all winter it only takes a space of a small office to store all my wood which heats my house all winter. I could store about 10 years of wood to heat my house on an acre so the WTC contents burning for a few months, or several months is not amazing; your inability to understand fire is amazing display of pure willful ignorance.

Except that the pile was drowned in water. One fireman reported that 'a lake of water' had been pumped in there and spraying went on throughout the clean up. Normal fires would never have survived this drowning but a 15,000 ton mass of molten iron would have had no problems.

It was a massive pool of molten iron Beachnut, no error. There is no other explanation. End of story.

[triforcharity]

But you are a debunker, professional or otherwise and not an innocent civilian.

What are you implying Billy?? Please, bless us with your infinate wisdom....:rolleyes:

[DGM]

Except that the pile was drowned in water. One fireman reported that 'a lake of water' had been pumped in there and spraying went on throughout the clean up. Normal fires would never have survived this drowning but a 15,000 ton mass of molten iron would have no problems.

It was a massive pool of molten iron Beachnut, no error. There is no other explanation. End of story.
You have no clue how big the WTC site was, do you?. Did you ever see the towers up close?

[beachnut]

Except that the pile was drowned in water. One fireman reported that 'a lake of water' had been pumped in there and spraying went on throughout the clean up. Normal fires would never have survived this drowning but a 15,000 ton mass of molten iron would have no problems.

It was a massive pool of molten iron Beachnut, no error. There is no other explanation. End of story.I see you have never put water on a 15,000 ton mass of molten iron. How much water did they use? Got some numbers to with your delusions?

Questions that prove you a troll with no evidence.
What temperature was the molten Iron?
What caused the molten iron?
How did the molten iron stay hot and what temperature was it?
These are simple questions you can't answer because your delusions fail to use physics, math, and science.
Once again displaying your ignorance on fire. Good job keep up the delusional posts, they can only serve to document your complete lack of knowledge on 911.

End of story; right! When will you show the evidence? Never

You can't tell us how the iron was heated, you can't explain anything about 911 unless you google it and it passes your "it is a lie" filter.


I love your massive work on the calculations. Your calculations are...
... It was a massive pool of molten iron Beachnut, no error. There is no other explanation. End of story.
Wow, talk, you just say it is so and call it over, "end of story". No numbers save 15,000 tons of molten iron? I suspect your word is not enough to earn that Pulitzer Prize for exposing the big cover up and conspiracy you can't quantify or prove with evidence, just your repeated delusions of 15,000 tons of iron, molten iron. Do you mean glowing molten, or melted molten?

Boom, boom, boom was due to the floors failing. What does 15,000 tons of iron have to do with boom, boom, boom?

[triforcharity]

Occasionally but we will allow the independent investigators to assess what is worthy of classification and what is not.

An "independant" investigation would not meet the required rules for getting Top Secret clearance. Fail again.

There are somethings that we, as a nation, do NOT need to reveal to anyone, as it would put ALL of our safety and national security into question.

[triforcharity]

Billy, we have gone over this before, and I have explained in great detail why the pile burned for months. Try this next time you're bored.

Get a little fire burning under a tree, not a big one, just a small camp fire. Put it in a small barbeque grill for safety's sake. Now, go to the top of the tree, spray the water THROUGH the top of the tree, and try to put the fire out. Takes a little while doesn't it Bill?? This is exactly what happened on 9/11. We couldn't get enough water ON the fire to extinguish it.

[bill smith]

I see you have never put water on a 15,000 ton mass of molten iron. How much water did they use? Got some numbers to with your delusions?

Questions that prove you a troll with no evidence.
What temperature was the molten Iron?
What caused the molten iron?
How did the molten iron stay hot and what temperature was it?
These are simple questions you can't answer because your delusions fail to use physics, math, and science.
Once again displaying your ignorance on fire. Good job keep up the delusional posts, they can only serve to document your complete lack of knowledge on 911.

End of story; right! When will you show the evidence? Never

You can't tell us how the iron was heated, you can't explain anything about 911 unless you google it and it passes your "it is a lie" filter.


I love your massive work on the calculations. Your calculations are...

Wow, talk, you just say it is so and call it over, "end of story". No numbers save 15,000 tons of molten iron? I suspect your word is not enough to earn that Pulitzer Prize for exposing the big cover up and conspiracy you can't quantify or prove with evidence, just your repeated delusions of 15,000 tons of iron, molten iron. Do you mean glowing molten, or melted molten?

I can explain most of what you ask here Beachnut and have done on various threads.

[bill smith]

Billy, we have gone over this before, and I have explained in great detail why the pile burned for months. Try this next time you're bored.

Get a little fire burning under a tree, not a big one, just a small camp fire. Put it in a small barbeque grill for safety's sake. Now, go to the top of the tree, spray the water THROUGH the top of the tree, and try to put the fire out. Takes a little while doesn't it Bill?? This is exactly what happened on 9/11. We couldn't get enough water ON the fire to extinguish it.

I thought it was thousands of smaller fires Matt ? I reckon they got most of them if the lake of water had not already drowned them..

[beachnut]

I can explain most of what you ask here Beachnut and have done on various threads.
You have no facts or evidence. You have a delusion about 15,000 tons of molten iron which you have no clue how hot it was, or how it got to be molten. You can't define what molten means, you have no clue that there is not 15,000 tons of molten iron at the WTC.

You failed to answer anything with rational results. You are off topic so easy as you can't support any of your ideas with evidence.
You have not explained anything about 911, you think you have explained things but you failed and moved on to your next lie.
The truth is you have not got one thing right about 911 and at your present rate of diverging with reality, you may never get 911 right.
You will post more delsuions and fail to support them.

Questions that prove you a troll with no evidence.
What temperature was the molten Iron?
What caused the molten iron?
How did the molten iron stay hot and what temperature was it?
These are simple questions you can't answer because your delusions fail to use physics, math, and science.
Once again displaying your ignorance on fire. Good job keep up the delusional posts, they can only serve to document your complete lack of knowledge on 911.
You have nothing to offer in this thread but off topic delusions. You can't stay on topic. You can't post evidence to support your lies. Are you trying to prove you have to post lies and/or be off topic?

Quick question..

I'm wondering if the fire fighters who are often shown talking on 9/11 describing the Boom-boom's ever followed up and explained what they were talking about in more detail? "It was like explosions, just boom boom boom boom boom! Floor by floor!" CTers are madly in love with this clip, I would appreciate some help on some background surrounding it.
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/whattheyheard

[triforcharity]

Fine, do the same experiment with many small fires under your tree. I don't care how you do it Bill. Now, care to tell me why they WOULD have been able to put them out?? Especially take into consideration the amount of electrical componets and plastic that were in the tower. I won't tell you why you need to take that into consideration, just that you need to. If you answer wrong, it will have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no knowledge of fire or its properties.

BTW, my name is Matthew, not Matt, but, thanks for playing "Name that poster!!"

[DGM]

Fine, do the same experiment with many small fires under your tree. I don't care how you do it Bill. Now, care to tell me why they WOULD have been able to put them out?? Especially take into consideration the amount of electrical componets and plastic that were in the tower. I won't tell you why you need to take that into consideration, just that you need to. If you answer wrong, it will have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no knowledge of fire or its properties.

BTW, my name is Matthew, not Matt, but, thanks for playing "Name that poster!!"
It's pointless man! She sees the WTC complex as something the size of her monitor. No clue what so ever how large an area we're talking about. Although I see your posting to educate the lurkers, trust me they know she's full of BS too.

[bill smith]

Fine, do the same experiment with many small fires under your tree. I don't care how you do it Bill. Now, care to tell me why they WOULD have been able to put them out?? Especially take into consideration the amount of electrical componets and plastic that were in the tower. I won't tell you why you need to take that into consideration, just that you need to. If you answer wrong, it will have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that you have no knowledge of fire or its properties.

BTW, my name is Matthew, not Matt, but, thanks for playing "Name that poster!!"

You named yourself to me long ago and you named yourself today on another thread. The one with Pat Curley when you were on the radio with Dylan Avery.

[bill smith]

It's pointless man! She sees the WTC complex as something the size of her monitor. No clue what so ever how large an area we're talking about. Although I see your posting to educate the lurkers, trust me they know she's full of BS too.

You should call the outside readers 'concerned citizens' especially on this mementous day.' Lurkers ' is kind of insulting. 'One who lurks '.....see what I mean ?

[BigAl]

Remember folks, you are carrying on a dialog with something that failed the Turing test.

[alienentity]

I can't resist but to say there is another equally plausible explanation with just as much evidence as bill's: it is obvious that alien technology was used to keep the piles hot, in spite of all the FDNY efforts.
There is no other explanation. End of story.:D

[A W Smith]

BillSmith I'm an "innocent civilian" and I consider you and your ilk to be the agents of half truths,lies,and failed theories. You certainly can't claim the moral high ground and accuse the posters in this sub forum of being shills in the pay of the U.S. Government, when you do that you are trying to quash honest debate. I'm sure that's what you'd like but that won't happen. Did you forget that one of your leaders, Alex Jones, posted an interview with the POTUS and Charlie Sheen that stood for ninety minutes before it had a disclaimer added? (that it was a fake) These are the people you look up to, maybe think about that for awhile.


Billie is using the poisoning of the well logical fallacy (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/poiswell.html).

[bill smith]

I can't resist but to say there is another equally plausible explanation with just as much evidence as bill's: it is obvious that alien technology was used to keep the piles hot, in spite of all the FDNY efforts.
There is no other explanation. End of story.:D

Well AE that is very helpful. You appear to be saying that it was either molten steel as I say or it was alien technology.

[triforcharity]

You named yourself to me long ago and you named yourself today on another thread. The one with Pat Curley when you were on the radio with Dylan Avery.

Yes, and what did I refer to myself as, certainly not Matt. But, obviously too many big words for you in my previous post. I have not been secret with my first name BTW. Never have.

[~enigma~]

Bill Smith works for Mossad.

[MysteryMammal]

But you are a debunker, professional or otherwise and not an innocent civilian.

I'm not a civilian? Hoo-boy, I'm gonna have some 'splaining to do when I see my dad next and tell him this. Does this mean I get VA medical treatment?

Please use the term civilian properly. If you can't, then strike it from your vocabulary.

PS - Bill, I like how when people decide the truth movement is full of **** you say they are a debunker. That's such a douche move.

[funk de fino]

If I was not wearing my red shoes I would challenge you to a duel for that Funk.

Use my full username or be reported for that also.

[bill smith]

Charming. Who's your friend guys ?

[mythstifieD]

Well AE that is very helpful. You appear to be saying that it was either molten steel as I say or it was alien technology.

You're like a living..breathing..fallacy...

[Elizabeth I]

You are accusing a fellow member of not being an innocent civilian. Tread carefully.

BS - following up on funk de fino's post: are all non-"civilians" guilty of something under your definition?

Because I work for my city's public library. That's a government agency. What am I guilty of?

[bill smith]

BS - following up on funk de fino's post: are all non-"civilians" guilty of something under your definition?

Because I work for my city's public library. That's a government agency. What am I guilty of?


In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers.

So any debunker,Librarian or otherwise can fall into either of these two categories.

In the immortal words of Mike Rivero;-

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

[dtugg]

How much does the NWO pay you bs?

[beachnut]

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers.

So any debunker,Librarian or otherwise can fall into either of these two categories. In the immortal words of Mike Rivero;-

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."You don't have the courage to think for yourself you just post the lies of your leaders in the delusional world of 911 truth. You are not a critical thinker. You are unable to take action and learn not to post delusions about 911. You treat the idiots who feed your lies on 911 like your leaders and believe all the moronic lies they spew making your signature ironic. You are unable to free yourself from the ignorance you prefer to lurk in. Your failure is highlighted by your blind support for liars, your leaders in spreading 911 lies.

There is only one type of truther. They post lies about 911, they can't figure out 911, and they are unable to do research that leads to rational conclusions on 911.


Too bad you are unable to stay on topic or learn about 911 past your delusions and lies. Here are some ideas on the sounds heard on 911. http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/whattheyheard (http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/whattheyheard)

[funk de fino]

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers.

So any debunker,Librarian or otherwise can fall into either of these two categories.


Your opinion is irrelevant. You are a proven liar and also now a proven coward.

[bill smith]

I love those really really defensive articles of yours Beachnut.

[Elizabeth I]

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers.

So any debunker,Librarian or otherwise can fall into either of these two categories.

In the immortal words of Mike Rivero;-

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

So none - NONE - of them are simply honest, well-intentioned people who have looked at the same evidence you have and honestly, genuinely come to a different conclusion?

Wow. That's an ugly world you live in.

And who the hell is Mike Rivero that his word should be Holy Writ?

[triforcharity]

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers.

So any debunker,Librarian or otherwise can fall into either of these two categories.

......"

So, did you just say that anyone who is not a paid NWO agent, is a ******* moral coward?? You should come and say that to the guys at 10 House in NYC. I bet they would disagree.

BTW, just last week, I ratted a guy that I worked for out for stealing the morphine off the truck. Some guy that was just an intern. Liked the guy too, had a great future. Now, he has no future with anything in the medical field.

Sorry sir, you are wrong again.

[bill smith]

So none - NONE - of them are simply honest, well-intentioned people who have looked at the same evidence you have and honestly, genuinely come to a different conclusion?

Wow. That's an ugly world you live in.

And who the hell is Mike Rivero that his word should be Holy Writ?

If a debunker has reaonably broad knowledge and a modicum of intelligence there is no way that she/he could fail to know at least that a new 9/11 enquiry is required.

What about you Elizabeth ? Do you think we need a new 9/11 enquiry ?

[SpitfireIX]

And who the hell is Mike Rivero that his word should be Holy Writ?


He's a Holocaust denier (http://www.european911citizensjury.com/09zs-1.htm). 'nuff said. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[triforcharity]

I don't Bill, one was already done. You want one so bad, fund it your damn self.

[bill smith]

I don't Bill, one was already done. You want one so bad, fund it your damn self.

Hey Tri....this is a forum that I sometimes post on. tfk if you remember him posts there as 'tomk52'. One of the things Ilike is that you can share videos and jokes etc. Also, you don't need to register....just select a name and post.
http://www.topix.com/forum/topstories/TSBMT04T49GGG7HFO/p6018#lastPost

[Elizabeth I]

If a debunker has reaonably broad knowledge and a modicum of intelligence there is no way that she/he could fail to know at least that a new 9/11 enquiry is required.

What about you Elizabeth ? Do you think we need a new 9/11 enquiry ?

Wow. So your answer to my question is, "no." According to you, there is no room for people of good will and reasonable intelligence to disagree.

And are you a fan of Joe McCarthy? Because your post sounds a lot like the questions he used to ask.

Un-*******-believable! And I don't use those asterisks lightly.

[Grizzly Bear]

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers.

I certainly hope you're prepared -- by that implication -- to implicate the entire architecture and engineering industry, as well as the educational institutions which prepare students like myself for the profession. Because if your post is any indication, then by virtue of my position coming from an education specific to this field I am by your definition either a moral coward or a paid shill. And so is much of the competent population working in the industry.

[EnJaySee]

In reference to the OP. I just watched 9/11: The miracle of stariway B produced by the History channel. Unfortunately I can't find this on the internet, just bits and pieces of it.

For those who don't know, there were 14 survivors of the North Tower collapse due to an immense amount of luck and a quirk of stairway B.

Some relevant quotes from the program:

"You heard the floors landing one on top of the other"
-Jim Mcglynn

"You could actually hear the floors hitting one another. Boom boom boom. And as it fell, it got faster"
-Sal D'Agostino (this guy made the hand motion)

What none of the 14 survivors have ever reported or stated was hearing any sounds like explosives going off before the building started to collapse. I believe it was 12 firemen of Ladder 6, a police officer and an office worker (Josephine Harris).

Insert chilly music
Unless they've been bought by the NWO!

Anyway, just yet another (among thousands) nail in the 9/11 conspiracy theory coffin.

[bill smith]

I certainly hope you're prepared -- by that implication -- to implicate the entire architecture and engineering industry, as well as the educational institutions which prepare students like myself for the profession. Because if your post is any indication, then by virtue of my position coming from an education specific to this field I am by your definition either a moral coward or a paid shill. And so is much of the competent population working in the industry.

There is an important subcategory which is a spin-off of the'Sap' and that is the kind of moral coward that takes to debunking with gusto. This is a kind of 'Stockholm Syndrome' where the poor Sap starts to assocoiate and identify with with the Shill. They can become 'more of a Shill than the Shills themselves' This is a common type of debunker and a big favourite with the government.

[bill smith]

In reference to the OP. I just watched 9/11: The miracle of stariway B produced by the History channel. Unfortunately I can't find this on the internet, just bits and pieces of it.

For those who don't know, there were 14 survivors of the North Tower collapse due to an immense amount of luck and a quirk of stairway B.

Some relevant quotes from the program:

"You heard the floors landing one on top of the other"
-Jim Mcglynn

"You could actually hear the floors hitting one another. Boom boom boom. And as it fell, it got faster"
-Sal D'Agostino (this guy made the hand motion)

What none of the 14 survivors have ever reported or stated was hearing any sounds like explosives going off before the building started to collapse. I believe it was 12 firemen of Ladder 6, a police officer and an office worker (Josephine Harris).

Insert chilly music
Unless they've been bought by the NWO!

Anyway, just yet another (among thousands) nail in the 9/11 conspiracy theory coffin.

Jeez-imagine going through that and surviving ? You would never be the same again.

[Grizzly Bear]

There is an important subcategory which is a spin-off of the'Sap' and that is the kind of moral coward that takes to debunking with gusto. This is a kind of 'Stockholm Syndrome' where the poor Sap starts to assocoiate and identify with with the Shill. They can become 'more of a Shill than the Shills themselves' This is a common type of debunker and a big favourite with the government.

I see, so any professional or student who disagrees with you might be a "sap" with some strain of Stockholm Syndrom even after they've demonstrating far more superior competence than the professionals whom you support.

I assume this includes every university of course. I mean, they're of course responsible for teaching students no? What do you think should be done about these naughty educational institutions who knowingly send competent professionals out into their respective fields who disagree with you?

[Grizzly Bear]

What none of the 14 survivors have ever reported or stated was hearing any sounds like explosives going off before the building started to collapse. I believe it was 12 firemen of Ladder 6, a police officer and an office worker (Josephine Harris).
<snip>
Anyway, just yet another (among thousands) nail in the 9/11 conspiracy theory coffin.
Neither were any of them subjected to blast trauma or high velocity shrapnel injuries. Remember, Richard Deranged believes that these explosives launched columns "up and outward" as far as 600 feet.

[DGM]

You should call the outside readers 'concerned citizens' especially on this mementous day.' Lurkers ' is kind of insulting. 'One who lurks '.....see what I mean ?
OK. Concerned citizens are convinced that you think the WTC site was the size of your monitor. Is that better?

ETA I'm sorry if I offended any "lurkers" . God (can I say "God"?) forbid I offend anyone.:p

[DavidJames]

OK. Concerned citizens are convinced that you think the WTC site was the size of your monitor. Is that better?

ETA I'm sorry if I offended any "lurkers" . God (can I say "God"?) forbid I offend anyone.:pI think concerned citizens and lurkers laugh at the troll as much as the rational people do.

[bill smith]

OK. Concerned citizens are convinced that you think the WTC site was the size of your monitor. Is that better?

ETA I'm sorry if I offended any "lurkers" . God (can I say "God"?) forbid I offend anyone.:p

Good Lad.

[DGM]

Good Lad.
So you confirm my assessment is correct. Thanks.

[bill smith]

so you confirm my assessment is correct. Thanks.
tltl

[leftysergeant]

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers.
Another oner pulled out of your underwear. The majority of debunkers are just those who are utterly baffled that there are religious cults who believe such absurd things about the same events we all saw together on 9/1101.

The majority of twoofers, as far as I have been able to determine, are cultists of some sort. These cultists can be divided into two camps, i.e., Nazis and useful idiots. Proof of this is that most of the cult beliefs were derived from the work of Nazis. They are all tainted.
So any debunker,Librarian or otherwise can fall into either of these two categories.

In the immortal words of Mike Rivero;-

"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it.

Thank you for proving my point. Now, are you a Nazi or a useful idiot?

[bill smith]

Another oner pulled out of your underwear. The majority of debunkers are just those who are utterly baffled that there are religious cults who believe such absurd things about the same events we all saw together on 9/1101.

The majority of twoofers, as far as I have been able to determine, are cultists of some sort. These cultists can be divided into two camps, i.e., Nazis and useful idiots. Proof of this is that most of the cult beliefs were derived from the work of Nazis. They are all tainted.
So any debunker,Librarian or otherwise can fall into either of these two categories.



Thank you for proving my point. Now, are you a Nazi or a useful idiot?

You deleted Mike Rivero's last sentence, probably in error. For your convenience and that of the readers I will tack it on here.

''...Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

[Klimax]

You deleted Mike Rivero's last sentence, probably in error. For your convenience and that of the readers I will tack it on here.

''...Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all."

Which applies of course to you,as we have examined the reality and can say that the only conspiracy that day was by muslim terrorists.

As propaganda truthers produce don't work on us,they have to direct it at people not aware and at their own to keep them and their money.

[Myriad]

The amount of heat in 15,000 metric tons of already molten iron (let's say all 15,000 tons starts out at the peak combustion temperature of thermite, which is impossible because in order to melt or even heat up any structural steel it would have to lose some of that heat, but we'll err in favor of bill's molten iron hypothesis):

= ~3273 °K * ~800 J/°K-Kg * 1.5e7 Kg = ~4e13 J

Now let's compare with the heat released by 4000 metric tons of paper and wood (that's about 50 full filing cabinets and 100 small bookshelves per twin tower floor, a very very conservative estimate):

= ~1.5e7 J/Kg * 4.0e6 Kg = ~6e13 J

So we can immediately see that combustion of even a portion of the fuels known to have existed within the rubble pile (disregarding large amounts of higher-energy plastic materials also present) is easily capable of providing more heat over time than even the most unrealistically large and hot hypothesized mass of "molten iron." The premise that pre-heated molten iron is required to explain the sustained high temperatures within the rubble piles after the collapse is thereby falsified.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[SpitfireIX]

Student Grade Report

Student Name: Myriad

Advanced Critical Thinking: A
Creative Writing: A
Modern American History: A
Technical Writing: A
Thermodynamics I: A


Dean's List
Semester Honors List

[bill smith]

The amount of heat in 15,000 metric tons of already molten iron (let's say all 15,000 tons starts out at the peak combustion temperature of thermite, which is impossible because in order to melt or even heat up any structural steel it would have to lose some of that heat, but we'll err in favor of bill's molten iron hypothesis):

= ~3273 °K * ~800 J/°K-Kg * 1.5e7 Kg = ~4e13 J

Now let's compare with the heat released by 4000 metric tons of paper and wood (that's about 50 full filing cabinets and 100 small bookshelves per twin tower floor, a very very conservative estimate):

= ~1.5e7 J/Kg * 4.0e6 Kg = ~6e13 J

So we can immediately see that combustion of even a portion of the fuels known to have existed within the rubble pile (disregarding large amounts of higher-energy plastic materials also present) is easily capable of providing more heat over time than even the most unrealistically large and hot hypothesized mass of "molten iron." The premise that pre-heated molten iron is required to explain the sustained high temperatures within the rubble piles after the collapse is thereby falsified.

Respectfully,
Myriad

The lake of water pumped into the rubble pile followed by the continual spraying down of the hot rubble for almost the full three months took care of any standard fires Myriad. This much is self evident.

Therefore the only possible source of the massive heat required to melt the firemen's shoes way up on the surface is the massive pool of molten iron. An estimated 15,000 tons of it.

Do you remember the firemen who said that it got hotter the deeper they went in the basements ?

[triforcharity]

Bill, I have explained to you many times why the waater did not get to the fires deep in the pile. You're ignoring it as usual. Why do you insist on ignoring my explanation?? Are you an intellectual coward?? Or are you just ignorant??

BTW, just for good measure, I will remind you.

The fires higher in the pile have consumed the water and turned it into steam. Not to mention that the water being pumped into the pile will not be a solid stream as it goes farther down into the pile. I have explained this to you. I have even presented an easy way to demonstrate what happened. Its not really all that hard to understand.

Now, why do you think the steam that was created after the fire was extinguished, would it continue to be effective in fighting the fire farther down the pile???

[bill smith]

Bill, I have explained to you many times why the waater did not get to the fires deep in the pile. You're ignoring it as usual. Why do you insist on ignoring my explanation?? Are you an intellectual coward?? Or are you just ignorant??

Personally I do not give your explanation much credence but you can always lay it out for the other folk to grab onto. Any straw in a storm as they say.

[triforcharity]

Oh, and there were no lakes of molten metal, or rivers, or even small ponds. Not there. Non-existant.

You have a truckload of fail coming your way if you continue.

[triforcharity]

You don't give it much credence because its a fact, and you cannot refute it at all. You just can't do it.

[bill smith]

You don't give it much credence because its a fact, and you cannot refute it at all. You just can't do it.

Tell the folk who are waiting for your explanation Tri.

[bill smith]

Bill, I have explained to you many times why the waater did not get to the fires deep in the pile. You're ignoring it as usual. Why do you insist on ignoring my explanation?? Are you an intellectual coward?? Or are you just ignorant??

BTW, just for good measure, I will remind you.

The fires higher in the pile have consumed the water and turned it into steam. Not to mention that the water being pumped into the pile will not be a solid stream as it goes farther down into the pile. I have explained this to you. I have even presented an easy way to demonstrate what happened. Its not really all that hard to understand.

Now, why do you think the steam that was created after the fire was extinguished, would it continue to be effective in fighting the fire farther down the pile???

Nah...those conventional fires were drowned by the flood of the lake of water or by the continual drenching of the pile for close to the full three months.

Remember what I said about this being a smoking machine-gun on stilts ?

[Grizzly Bear]

Tell the folk who are waiting for your explanation Tri.

15,000 tones eh? Over estimating there just a bit on the amount arent'cha? I love it when you guys pull figures out the posterior. :)

Nah...those fires were drowned by the flood of the lake of water or by the continual drenching of the pile for close to the full hree months.?

http://spluch.blogspot.com/2007/03/centralia-burning-town.html

This town has burned for over 40 years, rain, snow, and shine.

[Myriad]

The lake of water pumped into the rubble pile followed by the continual spraying down of the hot rubble for almost the full three months took care of any standard fires Myriad. This much is self evident.

Therefore the only possible source of the massive heat required to melt the firemen's shoes way up on the surface is the massive pool of molten iron. An estimated 15,000 tons of it.


I believe that's addressed here:

The amount of heat in 15,000 metric tons of already molten iron (let's say all 15,000 tons starts out at the peak combustion temperature of thermite, which is impossible because in order to melt or even heat up any structural steel it would have to lose some of that heat, but we'll err in favor of bill's molten iron hypothesis):

= ~3273 °K * ~800 J/°K-Kg * 1.5e7 Kg = ~4e13 J

Now let's compare with the heat released by 4000 metric tons of paper and wood (that's about 50 full filing cabinets and 100 small bookshelves per twin tower floor, a very very conservative estimate):

= ~1.5e7 J/Kg * 4.0e6 Kg = ~6e13 J

So we can immediately see that combustion of even a portion of the fuels known to have existed within the rubble pile (disregarding large amounts of higher-energy plastic materials also present) is easily capable of providing more heat over time than even the most unrealistically large and hot hypothesized mass of "molten iron." The premise that pre-heated molten iron is required to explain the sustained high temperatures within the rubble piles after the collapse is thereby falsified.


Water being heated and/or vaporized absorbs the same amount of heat whether the heat came from hot metal or from combustion. Far more heat was available from combustion of the known available fuel than would have been available from your hypothesized (and unsupported by evidence) mass of molten iron. That falsifies your claim that molten iron is required to explain high temperatures in the rubble pile.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[JohnG]

Who to believe? Who to believe? An experienced Firefighter who was actually at Ground Zero or an advanced Stundie generating computer program (a sort of "E-Lies-A", if you will). At the risk of sounding like an evidence-loving Shill, I'm going with the Firefighter.

[bill smith]

I believe that's addressed here:




Water being heated and/or vaporized absorbs the same amount of heat whether the heat came from hot metal or from combustion. Far more heat was available from combustion of the known available fuel than would have been available from your hypothesized (and unsupported by evidence) mass of molten iron. That falsifies your claim that molten iron is required to explain high temperatures in the rubble pile.

Respectfully,
Myriad

I will let the readers judge for themselves the relative merits of your paper/plastic fires which would have burned off in no time or been doused by the continual drenching the pile was receiving for the full three months or the massive well-shielded pool of molten steel bubbling and slowly cooling down from it's original possibly 4,000-5,000 degreees centigrade.

[bill smith]

Who to believe? Who to believe? An experienced Firefighter who was actually at Ground Zero or an advanced Stundie generating computer program (a sort of "E-Lies-A", if you will). At the risk of sounding like an evidence-loving Shill, I'm going with the Firefighter.

Now there's a surprise John. lol

[triforcharity]

It wasn't just plastic and paper.

It was also wood, tires, foam, paper, plastics, and other flameable materials.

BTW, did you google "muck fires" like I instructed you to?? This is simmilar to what happened with the pile at GZ. You're ignorant on fire and its properties.

[Macgyver1968]

The lake of water pumped into the rubble pile followed by the continual spraying down of the hot rubble for almost the full three months took care of any standard fires Myriad. This much is self evident.

Therefore the only possible source of the massive heat required to melt the firemen's shoes way up on the surface is the massive pool of molten iron. An estimated 15,000 tons of it.

Do you remember the firemen who said that it got hotter the deeper they went in the basements ?

Let me see if I am reading you correctly..Nanothermite inside of the core columns completed melted the columns, and all of this molten iron and steel flowed all the way to the basement forming one giant pool, and stayed molten for months.

Hmmm..

Couple of problems I see already...

Once the aluminum in the nanothermite burned off in a flash, there isn't anything to keep the iron molten. Iron is a great conductor of heat, and quickly cools off if not kept heated. The iron would have to travel the entire distance down to the basement, through areas of the building that were not effected by fire and were "room temperature". The entire time losing heat to everything it touched, and from being cooled by the air. How did it stay molten, and fluid enough to continue to flow all the way down to the basement?

How do you fully melt steel with molten iron? Again, after the aluminum burned off, there's nothing to pump more heat into it, so as the molten iron transfers it's heat to the steel, the molten iron cools. If you have half a glass of boiling water, and half a glass of luke warm water, and you pour one into the other, the boiling water doesn't make the luke warm water boil. It can't.

edit:
massive well-shielded pool of molten steel bubbling and slowly cooling down from it's original possibly 4,000-5,000 degreees centigrade.

What could have possibly heated it to 4000-5000 c? Not nanothermite.

From Wiki:
The melting and boiling points of aluminium also make it ideal for thermite reactions. Its relatively low melting point (660 °C, 1221 °F) means that it is easy to melt the metal, so that the reaction can occur mainly in the liquid phase[6] and thus proceeds fairly quickly. At the same time, its high boiling point - 2,519 °C (4,566 °F) - enables the reaction to reach very high temperatures, since several processes tend to limit the maximum temperature to just below the boiling point.[7]

If aluminum's boiling point is 2519 C, how did heat the steel to 4000-5000 C? ..especially with the boiling point of steel is somewhere around 3000 C?

[triforcharity]

Here you go Billy. Here are some links for you to look at.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/news/2006-05-10-florida-muck-fires_x.htm

http://www.tcpalm.com/news/2009/may/18/muck-fire-burns-western-martin-no-threat-structure/

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090118194303AASP6bz

http://swampie.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/lake-okechobee-muck-fire-could-burn-for-months/

Any one of these will help understand the concepts of muck fires.

[bill smith]

It wasn't just plastic and paper.

It was also wood, tires, foam, paper, plastics, and other flameable materials.

BTW, did you google "muck fires" like I instructed you to?? This is simmilar to what happened with the pile at GZ. You're ignorant on fire and its properties.

I did not need to follow your instructions because as far as I know here was no muck or coal or anything of that description in the pile. Just the materials you mentioned which either burned off hot and fast or smouldered.. But we all know that a snouldering fire does not radiate much heat and so could not be rsponsible for the temperatures measured way up on the surface.

So we are inevitably left with my 15,000 tons of molten iron slowly cooling down in the basement. There is no other explanation at all. Zero.

[triforcharity]

Muck fires have devoured entire forrests. Check out my links.

Firefighters have experienced burns on their legs from these fires. Also, noted in my links.

Fires have burned for weeks, even months with firefighters putting water on them. Muck fires are difficult to fight, because they acan be deep in the ground, and the water is hard to get where it needs to be.

Why is this hard for you to understand.


POLL: Who understands this as I have explained??

[jhunter1163]

I will let the readers judge for themselves the relative merits of your paper/plastic fires which would have burned off in no time or been doused by the continual drenching the pile was receiving for the full three months or the massive well-shielded pool of molten steel bubbling and slowly cooling down from it's original possibly 4,000-5,000 degreees centigrade.

Whoa, back up, bucko. Steel vaporizes at less than 4000oC. Remember when you Twoofies used to claim steel was vaporized?

[bill smith]

Let me see if I am reading you correctly..Nanothermite inside of the core columns completed melted the columns, and all of this molten iron and steel flowed all the way to the basement forming one giant pool, and stayed molten for months.

Hmmm..

Couple of problems I see already...

Once the aluminum in the nanothermite burned off in a flash, there isn't anything to keep the iron molten. Iron is a great conductor of heat, and quickly cools off if not kept heated. The iron would have to travel the entire distance down to the basement, through areas of the building that were not effected by fire and were "room temperature". The entire time losing heat to everything it touched, and from being cooled by the air. How did it stay molten, and fluid enough to continue to flow all the way down to the basement?

How do you fully melt steel with molten iron? Again, after the aluminum burned off, there's nothing to pump more heat into it, so as the molten iron transfers it's heat to the steel, the molten iron cools. If you have half a glass of boiling water, and half a glass of luke warm water, and you pour one into the other, the boiling water doesn't make the luke warm water boil. It can't.

No. Molten iron cools relatively slowly especially in well-shielded conditions like the WTC basements. It cools in flecks on the surface that slowly join up to form a seal for the molten heart. A 15,000 ton molten heart in this case. They tried to conduct the heat away by pumping what one fireman described as 'a lake of water ' in there but the job was just too big for that and they couldn't just go on pumping for ever. I read that even a subway station in new jersey I think it was was flooded by the water coming from the WTC, and this was five miles away.

[triforcharity]

Here is a GREAT link for a technology that was developed AFTER 9/11.

http://firechief.com/mag/firefighting_waterjet_technology_cuts/

The waterjet creates a tunnel approximately 1.5 inches in diameter, going hundreds of feet straight through the rubble to the area of interest. After this hole is made, the waterjet can be removed, and a camera can be sent in to survey the damage and check for survivors. For firefighting operations, the waterjet can then be placed back in the hole and used to deliver water to the hottest part of the fire.

[Bluesky]

I will let the readers judge for themselves the relative merits of your paper/plastic fires which would have burned off in no time or been doused by the continual drenching the pile was receiving for the full three months or the massive well-shielded pool of molten steel bubbling and slowly cooling down from it's original possibly 4,000-5,000 degreees centigrade.

This is another interesting theory from ae911truth... I get it.!?.. Thermite caused the collapse, although judging by the mythbusters episode they must have used several tons of thermite at the impact level. But this was a very special thermite that was fire-proof and survived the fire for an hour.

Since the government were not sure of the level of impact they concealed tons of thermite at every level. And when the towers collapsed the thermite burned melting all the steel, that took 3 months to cool down.

Thanks Bill, for showing us how they come up with their theories. It helps us understand.

[Macgyver1968]

No. Molten iron cools relatively slowly especially in well-shielded conditions like the WTC basements. It cools in flecks on the surface that slowly join up to form a seal for the molten heart. A 15,000 ton molten heart in this case. They tried to conduct the heat away by pumping what one fireman described as 'a lake of water ' in there but the job was just too big for that and they couldn't just go on pumping for ever. I read that even a subway station in new jersey I think it was was flooded by the water coming from the WTC, and this was five miles away.

Molten iron cools slowly? Really...Just making up rules of physics as we go along now? :) It wasn't "well insulated" as all of the streams of molten iron flowed down through the elevator shafts. How did stay molten on the way down, before it formed your giant molten heart?

[bill smith]

What did you think the ' meteorites ' were ? They were material from the edges of the molten pool that were in the process of melting when they were rapidly cooled by the lake of water.

[bill smith]

Maybe I better go easy on you guys, Too much in one day is not good for you.

Here's an interesting video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9nE372Ymc4

[DGM]

Bill:
I have friends that worked on the piles and none of them found 15,000 ton ingots of iron. How do you explain the fact that no remains of your 15,000 tons of molten iron were found?

[Klimax]

I will let the readers judge for themselves the relative merits of your paper/plastic fires which would have burned off in no time or been doused by the continual drenching the pile was receiving for the full three months or the massive well-shielded pool of molten steel bubbling and slowly cooling down from it's original possibly 4,000-5,000 degreees centigrade.

Readers have judged:Myriad is correct and you have another fail.

[Alareth]

Bill, I have a serious question for you. I'd appreciate an honest answer if it's possible.

Yes or No, any answer other and one of those two words will be ignored.

If a new investigation was held by a panel free of government involvement that had your "magical subpoena power" and they concluded that the events of 9/11 were not an "inside job" as you believe, would you accept the result and walk away from the issue?

Remember, Yes or No. Anything else as an answer is simply equivocation and a waste of effort.

[DGM]

I will let the readers judge for themselves the relative merits of your paper/plastic fires which would have burned off in no time or been doused by the continual drenching the pile was receiving for the full three months or the massive well-shielded pool of molten steel bubbling and slowly cooling down from it's original possibly 4,000-5,000 degreees centigrade.
"possible 4000 to 5000 C ? How? I'm keeping it simple for you, (please don't claim "therm?te without numbers).

[bill smith]

Bill:
I have friends that worked on the piles and none of them found 15,000 ton ingots of iron. How do you explain the fact that no remains of your 15,000 tons of molten iron were found?

That's a whole other story that I have already discussed. I suggest you look further back in the thread.

[Grizzly Bear]

"possible 4000 to 5000 C ? How? I'm keeping it simple for you, (please don't claim "therm?te without numbers).

Simple... he just debunked thermite all by his lonesome.

[bill smith]

Bill, I have a serious question for you. I'd appreciate an honest answer if it's possible.

Yes or No, any answer other and one of those two words will be ignored.

If a new investigation was held by a panel free of government involvement that had your "magical subpoena power" and they concluded that the events of 9/11 were not an "inside job" as you believe, would you accept the result and walk away from the issue?

Remember, Yes or No. Anything else as an answer is simply equivocation and a waste of effort.

You had better ignore me then. There is a special button....

[DGM]

That's a whole other story that I have already discussed. I suggest you look further back in the thread.
You never really covered it, did you. Please humor and old guy and answer my question for me. Your not calling my iron-worker friends liars are you?

[DGM]

Simple... he just debunked thermite all by his lonesome.
Do you think she'll understand why?:o

[bill smith]

"possible 4000 to 5000 C ? How? I'm keeping it simple for you, (please don't claim "therm?te without numbers).
hese are figures I have heard in relation to nanothermite. Either way, the steel would have been so hot it would have been like water.

[bill smith]

You never really covered it, did you. Please humor and old guy and answer my question for me. Your not calling my iron-worker friends liars are you?

Not right now Sweetie... I'm tired.

[DGM]

hese are figures I have heard in relation to nanothermite. Either way, the steel would have been so hot it would have been like water.
Try again Bill.

Hint: The "nano" is not your friend. It's fairly simple chemistry that you don't understand that's killing your argument before it begins.

[Grizzly Bear]

Do you think she'll understand why?:o

Given his performance... I think not ;)

He got the temperatures for thermite wrong, and he doesn't understand that energy release also has a time variable to it.

[DGM]

Not right now Sweetie... I'm tired.
Sweetie? It almost sounds like your flirting with this (me) 50 year old guy.:blush:

[DGM]

Given his performance... I think not ;)

He got the temperatures for thermite wrong, and he doesn't understand that energy release also has a time variable to it.
I'm not totally up on my metallurgy, but at 4000 to 5000 C isn't steel approaching a vapor state? (way over boiling)

[Alareth]

You had better ignore me then. There is a special button....

Well, I'm not surprised in the least.

[bill smith]

I'm not totally up on my metallurgy, but at 4000 to 5000 C isn't steel approaching a vapor state? (way over boiling)

You saw the steel pouring out of WTC2. That would have been a slightly cooled version of how most of the molten iron in the basement would have appeared.

[jhunter1163]

I'm not totally up on my metallurgy, but at 4000 to 5000 C isn't steel approaching a vapor state? (way over boiling)

Iron boils at about 3,000 C. Source:

http://www.chemistryexplained.com/elements/C-K/Iron.html

[DGM]

You saw the steel pouring out of WTC2. That would have been a slightly cooled version of how most of the molten iron in the basement would have appeared.
Steel pouring out of #2? Never happened. (steel does not elongate as it falls and cools.)

[Macgyver1968]

You saw the steel pouring out of WTC2. That would have been a slightly cooled version of how most of the molten iron in the basement would have appeared.

Does that molten "steel" pouring out of the side of the WTC2 stay molten as it falls all the way to the ground? (answer: no...it stops glowing only a few seconds after it is away from a heat source) Why would molten iron stay molten falling all the way to the basement on the inside of the building?

[Alareth]

Anyone remember Max Photon's "firetruck driving through lava" picture?

[DGM]

Anyone remember Max Photon's "firetruck driving through lava" picture?
Ah the memories. (takes a moment to reflect).......................................... .................................................. ......................... In his defense (hey I have a soft spot of Max) he did admit the "lava" was the sun shinning though the smoke.

[Grizzly Bear]

I'm not totally up on my metallurgy, but at 4000 to 5000 C isn't steel approaching a vapor state? (way over boiling)

It's getting up around the temperature of the surface of the sun at that point, minus one or two thousand degrees Fahrenheit.

[SpitfireIX]

Maybe I better go easy on you guys, Too much in one day is not good for you.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1706047bdedf4603bd.jpg

[Elizabeth I]

http://spluch.blogspot.com/2007/03/centralia-burning-town.html

This town has burned for over 40 years, rain, snow, and shine.

Hell, we had a mulch fire in San Antonio that burned for about three months (http://www.ksat.com/news/10990342/detail.html), being watered just about all the time.

[triforcharity]

Bill doesn't understand this. His grasp of fire and its pricipals is non-existant.

[triforcharity]

Anyone remember Max Photon's "firetruck driving through lava" picture?

Oh, please do tell. I would LOVE to see this. Sounds like it might be quite entertaining!!

[EnJaySee]

Bill doesn't understand this. His grasp of fire and its pricipals is non-existant.

I'd say Bill Smith's understanding of fires was exposed as a fabrication. Made wonderfully clear in this thread.

[MysteryMammal]

Bill doesn't understand this. His grasp of fire and its pricipals is non-existant.

It's not that he doesn't understand (actually, maybe it is, it's completely irrelevant either way.) He's a troll. And you're feeding him...

[bill smith]

It's not that he doesn't understand (actually, maybe it is, it's completely irrelevant either way.) He's a troll. And you're feeding him...

Debunkers are so tasty..Yum.

[Dave Rogers]

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills.

I've always found the most amusing aspect of the truth movement to be that, within its world view, I cannot possibly exist.

Dave

[RedIbis]

I've always found the most amusing aspect of the truth movement to be that, within its world view, I cannot possibly exist.

Dave

Bill's false choice fallacy is as logical as claiming that all people who question the official story are Truthers.

[Dave Rogers]

Bill's false choice fallacy is as logical as claiming that all people who question the official story are Truthers.

It's not a claim, it's a definition. Try learning the distinction.

Dave

[bill smith]

I've always found the most amusing aspect of the truth movement to be that, within its world view, I cannot possibly exist.

Dave

Did you read all the categories Dave ?

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers.


So any debunker,Librarian or otherwise can fall into either of these two categories.


In the immortal words of Mike Rivero;-


"Most people prefer to believe their leaders are just and fair even in the face of evidence to the contrary, because once a citizen acknowledges that the government under which they live is lying and corrupt, the citizen has to choose what he or she will do about it. To take action in the face of a corrupt government entails risks of harm to life and loved ones. To choose to do nothing is to surrender one's self-image of standing for principles. Most people do not have the courage to face that choice. Hence, most propaganda is not designed to fool the critical thinker but only to give moral cowards an excuse not to think at all


There is an important subcategory which is a spin-off of the'Sap' and that is the kind of moral coward that takes to debunking with gusto. This is a kind of 'Stockholm Syndrome' where the poor Sap starts to assocoiate and identify with with the Shill. They can become 'more of a Shill than the Shills themselves' This is a common type of debunker and a big favourite with the government.

[Dave Rogers]

Did you read all the categories Dave ?

Being able to count to three, I only read both of them.

Dave

[dafydd]

Bill doesn't understand this. His grasp of fire and its pricipals is non-existant.

His grasp on almost everything is non-existant.

[kookbreaker]

http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/1706047bdedf4603bd.jpg

Combine with this:

uywgp-XXwgE

[Longfellow]

...(snip)

In my opinion there are two main types of debunker. There are 'Shills' who are paid government propaganda assets tasked to talk down the 9/11 Movement for Truth and there are 'Saps' who are their hangers-on. These are often poor lost souls who suffer from moral cowardice and are only too willing to swallow whole the poor fare offered by the Shills. These are by far the biggest group of debunkers. ...(snip)

In my opinion, there are two main types of '9/11 truthers'. First, you have the charlatans who crank out books in the hopes that enough gullible people will buy them so they don't have to hold a 'real' job. And then there's the willfully ignorant. These folks take special care to confine their 'research' only to those resources which serve to confirm their ideology and are willing to swallow whole the poor fair offered by the charlatans. This is, by far, the biggest group of 'truthers' and is the bread and butter of the charlatans.

[RedIbis]

It's not a claim, it's a definition. Try learning the distinction.

Dave

Actually, it's an opinion, and one expressed to conflate and marginalize any dissenting perspective to the prevailing view.

[Dave Rogers]

Actually, it's an opinion, and one expressed to conflate and marginalize any dissenting perspective to the prevailing view.

Not a logical fallacy, then. You really need to make up your mind.

Dave

[DGM]

Oh, please do tell. I would LOVE to see this. Sounds like it might be quite entertaining!!



http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_17074469213b61793d.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=6905)

This is the picture of the "Fire truck driving through molten steel" (the bright part is the steel). In his defense he later admitted it was just the sun shining on the ground. It was pretty funny at the time.

ETA there was a video, but I can't find it.

[triforcharity]

DGM,

AS soon as I saw that picture, I knew exactly what it was. Sunlight. Molten Steel typically does not have sharp, crisp, lines, but however, a shadow does.

Not to mention if there WERE molten metal in thata quantity in the streets, there would be flames and smoke from every edge from the combustables around it bursting into flames.

But, the comedic value is rather high in this one!! God, I hope SOMEONE can find the video!!

[bill smith]

DGM,

AS soon as I saw that picture, I knew exactly what it was. Sunlight. Molten Steel typically does not have sharp, crisp, lines, but however, a shadow does.

Not to mention if there WERE molten metal in thata quantity in the streets, there would be flames and smoke from every edge from the combustables around it bursting into flames.

But, the comedic value is rather high in this one!! God, I hope SOMEONE can find the video!!

Me too.

[triforcharity]

Why?? You would believe it was a fact, provide it in your next baseless and factless argument, and cling to it like a liferaft from the Titanic.

[bill smith]

Why?? You would believe it was a fact, provide it in your next baseless and factless argument, and cling to it like a liferaft from the Titanic.

It fits perfectly with my explanation but I would like to assess the video first.

[bill smith]

Why?? You would believe it was a fact, provide it in your next baseless and factless argument, and cling to it like a liferaft from the Titanic.
Interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EuWmvYMk2s

[Dave Rogers]

It fits perfectly with my explanation but I would like to assess the video first.

Good call, Tri.

Dave