The Dancing Israelis, anyone?

[jammonius]

That jumped off the page at me, too.

Just when you think it's not possible for these creeps to exhibit worse behaviour, they lower the bar.


I gather that which "jumped off the page" was reference to the word "celebrating." Is that correct?

Another necessary condition is whether or not posters here believe there were a number (sometimes said to be 5) of so-called "dancing Israelis" who were seen to be celebrating the intial destructive hits upon the Twin Towers. Do posters here consider this to be something that happened; or, has this claim been debunked as that term is understood and used on this forum?

Were Israelis, said to have been celebrating, arrested in New Jersey after having been reported to be driving a white van, or did that event not happen?

I here point out that I am assuming, for purposes of this post, that such arrests occurred and that such persons were seen celebrating the attack on the Twin Towers.

With that frame of reference in mind, I think this may help to reinvigorate discussion of disgust that persons 'celebrate' 9/11 in the context of what is sometimes referred to as the "5 dancing Israelis" who were seen my numerous witnesses celebrating the destruction of the WTC on 9/11.

Little or no anger has ever been expressed against those dancers. Indeed, the reasons for their release after 71 days in custody are not at all clear.

As I understand it, the nationality of the individuals involved in that celebration is based on information obtained during the 71 day time period under which these individuals were kept locked up in jail.

What comes to mind here is that the Murkin public did NOT react strongly to what few reports there were of those arrests.

I here extrapolate that it is highly likely that had the 5 persons arrested after being said to have been "dancing" and engaging in other expressions of joy been of semitic descent or ethnicity(i.e. of Middle Eastern or Arabic ethnicity) rather than Israeli (and therefore of non-semitic origin), then the reaction to such persons would have been different. Indeed, it is likely that any such semites would have been tortured, put into Guantanamo and convicted of terrorism.

The real issue here, one supposes, is that there has never really been any real need to prove either what actually happened on 9/11, let alone who actually did it. Rather, the 'who, what, when, where and why' of 9/11 is by and large an area of supposition, not really needing proof. We currently live in an epoch in which a confrontation with Muslims is the order of the day. Anything that is consistent with furthering that confrontation gains traction, while anything that might detract from it, such as that 9/11 was a false flag operation is simply not acceptable, emotionally or otherwise.


Split from: Can someone give a GZ-report today? (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=153521)

[dudalb]

I gather that which "jumped off the page" was reference to the word "celebrating." Is that correct?

Another necessary condition is whether or not posters here believe there were a number (sometimes said to be 5) of so-called "dancing Israelis" who were seen to be celebrating the intial destructive hits upon the Twin Towers. Do posters here consider this to be something that happened; or, has this claim been debunked as that term is understood and used on this forum?

Were Israelis, said to have been celebrating, arrested in New Jersey after having been reported to be driving a white van, or did that event not happen?

I here point out that I am assuming, for purposes of this post, that such arrests occurred and that such persons were seen celebrating the attack on the Twin Towers.

With that frame of reference in mind, I think this may help to reinvigorate discussion of disgust that persons 'celebrate' 9/11 in the context of what is sometimes referred to as the "5 dancing Israelis" who were seen my numerous witnesses celebrating the destruction of the WTC on 9/11.

Little or no anger has ever been expressed against those dancers. Indeed, the reasons for their release after 71 days in custody are not at all clear.

As I understand it, the nationality of the individuals involved in that celebration is based on information obtained during the 71 day time period under which these individuals were kept locked up in jail.

What comes to mind here is that the Murkin public did NOT react strongly to what few reports there were of those arrests.

I here extrapolate that it is highly likely that had the 5 persons arrested after being said to have been "dancing" and engaging in other expressions of joy been of semitic descent or ethnicity(i.e. of Middle Eastern or Arabic ethnicity) rather than Israeli (and therefore of non-semitic origin), then the reaction to such persons would have been different. Indeed, it is likely that any such semites would have been tortured, put into Guantanamo and convicted of terrorism.

The real issue here, one supposes, is that there has never really been any real need to prove either what actually happened on 9/11, let alone who actually did it. Rather, the 'who, what, when, where and why' of 9/11 is by and large an area of supposition, not really needing proof. We currently live in an epoch in which a confrontation with Muslims is the order of the day. Anything that is consistent with furthering that confrontation gains traction, while anything that might detract from it, such as that 9/11 was a false flag operation is simply not acceptable, emotionally or otherwise.

:bs:

God, even a lot of truthers have given up on the Dancing Israelis crap.
Nice going, guy. I guess it would not be 9/11 without a does of Truther Woo.

[TruthersLie]

I gather that which "jumped off the page" was reference to the word "celebrating." Is that correct?

Another necessary condition is whether or not posters here believe there were a number (sometimes said to be 5) of so-called "dancing Israelis" who were seen to be celebrating the intial destructive hits upon the Twin Towers. Do posters here consider this to be something that happened; or, has this claim been debunked as that term is understood and used on this forum?

911myths.com is your friend. Look up the 5 dancing israelis.


Were Israelis, said to have been celebrating, arrested in New Jersey after having been reported to be driving a white van, or did that event not happen?


Again, 5 minutes of investigoogling finds you the answers. put in 5 dancing israelis debunked and then actually READ what you find.


I here point out that I am assuming, for purposes of this post, that such arrests occurred and that such persons were seen celebrating the attack on the Twin Towers.

With that frame of reference in mind, I think this may help to reinvigorate discussion of disgust that persons 'celebrate' 9/11 in the context of what is sometimes referred to as the "5 dancing Israelis" who were seen my numerous witnesses celebrating the destruction of the WTC on 9/11.


5 israelis who were joking around and reported to the authorities by a neighbor. 5 israelis who showed up AFTER the second jet impact (which shows no preknowledge), who were arrested and interrogated for quite a while.


Little or no anger has ever been expressed against those dancers. Indeed, the reasons for their release after 71 days in custody are not at all clear.

As I understand it, the nationality of the individuals involved in that celebration is based on information obtained during the 71 day time period under which these individuals were kept locked up in jail.

What comes to mind here is that the Murkin public did NOT react strongly to what few reports there were of those arrests.

Again and again, it has been debunked to death... but remember dem damn jooooooz are responsible for everything.


I here extrapolate that it is highly likely that had the 5 persons arrested after being said to have been "dancing" and engaging in other expressions of joy been of semitic descent or ethnicity(i.e. of Middle Eastern or Arabic ethnicity) rather than Israeli (and therefore of non-semitic origin), then the reaction to such persons would have been different. Indeed, it is likely that any such semites would have been tortured, put into Guantanamo and convicted of terrorism.


blah blah blah


The real issue here, one supposes, is that there has never really been any real need to prove either what actually happened on 9/11, let alone who actually did it. Rather, the 'who, what, when, where and why' of 9/11 is by and large an area of supposition, not really needing proof.


supposition? you obviously have NEVER read the 9/11 commission report. Nor have you paid any attention to the previous terror attacks by Al Q vs the US.

The physical evidence is overwhelming that 19 misguided religious fundamentalists hijacked 4 jets, piloting 3 of them inot their targets and one was crashed in a field when the passengers responded. Period. End of statement.


We currently live in an epoch in which a confrontation with Muslims is the order of the day. Anything that is consistent with furthering that confrontation gains traction, while anything that might detract from it, such as that 9/11 was a false flag operation is simply not acceptable, emotionally or otherwise.

You really might want to actually try to READ any information besides for mein kampf, or other antisemitic literature. I know it is hard (all of those letter thingees longer than 5 letters) but try.

ETA: 911myths.com is your friend
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Dancing_Israelis
try to read it and pay attention. I know it is hard, but try.

[jammonius]

The above (post #3) is not, in my view, a very good example of the "Art of 9/11 Debunking" as I choose to call the genre. Debunk is considered a synonym of refute. However, in 9/11-World, debunking is not the same as refutation because the emotional starting point in 9/11-world is very different from planet earth as a whole.

First of all, in 9/11-world, defiance of the laws of physics is readily accepted. Claims that kerosene (which is what jet fuel essentially is) can attain high enough temperatures to cause significant deformation of the structural steel beams that were used to construct the world's tallest skyscrapers (which the Twin Towers were when built), even though the jet fuel in the alleged jetliners that allegedly hit them had <10,000 gals. of such fuel (and that estimate is generous).

In 9/11-world, it does not matter that the amount of jet fuel that jetliners can store is approximately enough to fill an average size backyard swimming pool. The world's tallest (when built) buildings are no match for that amount of kerosene, in part, because in 9/11-world there is always room for an addition to the equation that makes sure the end result is consistent with the official explanation.

The Ptolemaic solar system pales in comparison with the process used to justify the foregone conclusion in 9/11-world. Instead, 9/11-world is more akin to present-day physics and cosmology that doggedly holds onto the myth of the "Big Bang" and the myth of the existence of things like "Black Holes" and "Dark energy" and "Dark matter."

The reason why the latter analogy is more apt is that "Big Bang"-based physics has the support of the scientific establishment. You can get grants and you can get your papers published if you propound a way of reconciling all of the visible and observable phenomena that confound and flatly contradict tenets that Big Bang theory relies on.

So it is in 9/11-world. It is as if no piece of information that contradicts the official explanation can ever pass muster, ever.

In connection with the 5 dancing Israelis, the tactic of debunking seems to be particularly weak. But that does not matter. The reason why 9/11-debunking is a special genre is that such debunking is self-fulfilling and self congratulatory.

The 911myths.com website is simplistic to the point of being simple-minded. It puts Fox News to shame.

In debunking the 5 dancing Israelis, it says the NYTimes was inaccurate and then relies, for purposes of debunking, upon the statement of the person who saw and reported what they thought was suspicious activity.

The debunking asserts that the following is a better explanation of the event:

"Let’s abandon the second-hand reports, then, and look at what the witness to this filming actually said. This ABC article crops up a lot:

Maria, who asked us not to use her last name, had a view of the World Trade Center from her New Jersey apartment building. She remembers a neighbor calling her shortly after the first plane hit the towers. She grabbed her binoculars and watched the destruction unfolding in lower Manhattan. But as she watched the disaster, something else caught her eye.
Maria says she saw three young men kneeling on the roof of a white van in the parking lot of her apartment building. "They seemed to be taking a movie," Maria said.

The men were taking video or photos of themselves with the World Trade Center burning in the background, she said. What struck Maria were the expressions on the men's faces. "They were like happy, you know … They didn't look shocked to me. I thought it was very strange," she said.

She found the behavior so suspicious that she wrote down the license plate number of the van and called the police. Before long, the FBI was also on the scene, and a statewide bulletin was issued on the van.

The plate number was traced to a van owned by a company called Urban Moving. Around 4 p.m. on Sept. 11, the van was spotted on a service road off Route 3, near New Jersey's Giants Stadium. A police officer pulled the van over, finding five men, between 22 and 27 years old, in the vehicle. The men were taken out of the van at gunpoint and handcuffed by police."

The information I relied on said that the 5 remained jailed for more than 70 days.

My assertion is that had they been Semitic in ethnicity, they would have remained in jail longer, likely at Quantanamo and would have been tortured, as that is consistent with the deep desire to further the official 9/11 myth.

[T.A.M.]

I don't give a **** what you think of "9/11 debunking" or what your standards are.

911myths covers this topic quite well. Go read it. If you don't agree, fine. NO ONE CARES if you agree or not.

This topic has been done to death.

TAM

[WildCat]

First of all, in 9/11-world, defiance of the laws of physics is readily accepted. Claims that kerosene (which is what jet fuel essentially is) can attain high enough temperatures to cause significant deformation of the structural steel beams that were used to construct the world's tallest skyscrapers (which the Twin Towers were when built), even though the jet fuel in the alleged jetliners that allegedly hit them had <10,000 gals. of such fuel (and that estimate is generous).

I love it when truthers act all sciency!

[Senenmut]

here is a good place to start investigating the israeli connections:

http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/MemorandumtotheCommissionandSelectCommitteesbold.p df

"A memorandum sent to the 9/11 Commission, and Senate and House intelligence committees in September 2004, suggests that young Israelis who canvassed dozens of U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) offices in 2000 and 2001 trying to sell paintings to federal workers, may have been spying not only on the DEA, but also on Arab extremists in the United States – including the Sept. 11 hijackers who were living in Florida and New Jersey.”

The author of this memorandum [.pdf] is Gerald Shea, a retired corporate lawyer. Shea – an alumnus of Phillips Academy, Yale (1964), and Columbia Law School – was associated for many years with one of New York’s most prominent law firms, in New York and Paris, and his memo reads like a lawyer’s brief: it is written with the same meticulous attention to details of time and place, and with a lawyerly regard for maintaining a high standard of evidence."

here is just one of the maps that show how close the israeli groups were to the hijackers. if u wanna see a few more maps and how close the israeli groups were to the hijackers, check out the memorandum and start on page 163-166. from what i remmeber, these guys were supposedly spying on people of interest. whether they were just spying or had infiltrated the groups would be interesting. some think that the atta message during the hijacking about "we have some planes" is of israeli accent.


http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/thum_285444aabb99a8f2be.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17541)

[MikeW]

The 911myths.com website is simplistic to the point of being simple-minded. It puts Fox News to shame.
Aww, shucks. I'm sorry I offended you. But you know what? Sometimes the truth really is quite simple. Not the complex lies offered by frauds like David Ray Griffin.

In debunking the 5 dancing Israelis, it says the NYTimes was inaccurate and then relies, for purposes of debunking, upon the statement of the person who saw and reported what they thought was suspicious activity.
The point in question was the arrival time of the Israelis. I placed the most emphasis on the account of the witness who reported their presence. Why is that "simplistic to the point of being simple-minded", jammonius? Please, do explain.

[Pardalis]

9/11 makes truthers come out like cockroaches at night.

[jammonius]

Re post #6

That post is quite worthy of 9/11-world where neither science nor reason matter much. And, that observation is not a criticism. It is perfectly consistent with human social interaction to avoid looking at the possibility that entities that one trusts implicitly and the "side" that one dearly loves to root for, adhere in and otherwise kowtow to, has engaged in betrayal and treason to such a blatant degree as to purposely kill many of us, blame it on someone else and then use that blame to launch wars and financial fraud that kills more of us and bankrupts all of us as a whole.

Small wonder sites like 911myths -- stupidly simplistic though they may be -- have their adherents. All of this is understandable. One might even go so far as to say those who ferverently support the official version of what happened on 9/11 are engaging in rational behavior; and, those who cannot bring themselves to ignore laws of physics, science and their own capacity to reason are, in fact, engaging in the risky behavior of challenging a dearly held societal norm.

The claim that 9/11 was caused by a combination of governmental insiders, branches of the military-industrial-complex, with or without Israeli links, is far too much for most people to entertain, no matter how glaringly obvious the evidence in support of that claim is. Similarly, Semites from the Middle East are going to continue to be blamed for the event no matter how preposterous the explanation and no matter how weak, contradictory and/or nonexistent the evidence supporting the claim might be.

That said, let's all continue to play our respective parts in unraveling the truth of that stunningly wicked episode of 'shock & awe' warring that was carried out against us on 9/11/01.

[BigAl]

type much?

[Pardalis]

Similarly, Semites from the Middle East are going to continue to be blamed for the event no matter how preposterous the explanation and no matter how weak, contradictory and/or nonexistent the evidence supporting the claim might be.

This sounds just like those Israelis you were talking about. :rolleyes:

Another political ideologue who thinks his own political opinions are proof. Not very original.

Next.

[jammonius]

Aww, shucks. I'm sorry I offended you. But you know what? Sometimes the truth really is quite simple. Not the complex lies offered by frauds like David Ray Griffin.


The point in question was the arrival time of the Israelis. I placed the most emphasis on the account of the witness who reported their presence. Why is that "simplistic to the point of being simple-minded", jammonius? Please, do explain.

Offended? I do not take offense at anonymous postings that are critical of anonymous postings. Further, I have already indicated that it is quite rational to avoid, at all costs, including those of suspending reason, not to mention disbelief, having to consider the possibility that 9/11 was a purposeful act of deception so as to foment warring and financial fraud. In other words, kill and beggar us.

Arrival Time:

Although it is pointless to actually reveal the stunning stupidity of 911myths, I suppose, as this thread is in an early stage of development, that it is useful to demonstrate the stupid simplicity of the claim of debunking.

In point of fact, the claim that the Israelis arrived after Tower 1 had been damaged by an explosive hi-tech weapon rests upon a highly particularized and unsupported grammatical assumption derived from the following:

"MARIA: Like a few minutes must have gone on, and all of a sudden down there I see this van park. And I see three guys on top of the van, and I'm trying, you know, to look at the building but what caught my attention, they seemed to be taking a movie."

The claim of "arrival time" is not at all supported by that quotation. Clearly, and at best, the language is ambiguous and it is not essential to explain in detail why the language is ambiguous. Suffice to say that all one has to do is read it to see that it does not support an arrival time claim at all.

Moreover, we must never forget that we are in 9/11-world here. Reason does not matter, and grammar sure as hades doesn't mean a dam thing here.

Adherents will adhere and those who have some courage and who take seriously the claim that the USA is the "home of the brave" will not let the travesty perpetrated on 9/11/01 succumb to the social pressure to conform and to go along with the official version of what happened.

[Pardalis]

I disagree with your political worldview.

There, I just debunked you. Easy.

[jammonius]

This sounds just like those Israelis you were talking about. :rolleyes:

Another political ideologue who thinks his own political opinions are proof. Not very original.

Next.

Israelis are not Semites. They are of Eastern European descent and are, therefore, Caucasian.

No political opinion is proof, in my opinion, neither mine nor anyone else's. As that has been my operating basis for a long time, I must say that your accusation that I "consider my opinion to be proof" is your own faulty assumption and does not have anything whatever to do with me or how I weigh or consider political opinion.

I here assert that your accusation is, therefore, false. Be advised.

[Pardalis]

Israelis are not Semites. They are of Eastern European descent and are, therefore, Caucasian.

Blah blah, whatever. You are accusing them without evidence nonetheless.

No political opinion is proof, in my opinion, neither mine nor anyone else's. As that has been my operating basis for a long time, I must say that your accusation that consider my opinion to be proof is your own assumption and does not have anything whatever to do with me.

I here assert that your accusation is, therefore, false. Be advised.Everything you've said so far is your own political opinion. You have yet to provide any objective evidence, anything of factual value. What is clear, is that you have a racist agenda.

[jammonius]

I disagree with your political worldview.

There, I just debunked you. Easy.

You're being a bit redundant, aren't you? I have earlier said that in 9/11-world, debunking of those who challenge the official version of events is a given. It is obviously easy to engage in such debunking as doing so avoids the necessity to confront the awful inferences that necessarily accompany the questioning of the official myth.

Please try to keep up.

[jammonius]

Blah blah, whatever. You are accusing them without evidence nonetheless.

Everything you've said so far is your own political opinion. You have yet to provide any objective evidence, anything of factual value. What is clear, is that you have a racist agenda.

I consider the above to be over-the-top and I'm sorry you found it necessary to go there.

Good bye for now

[BigAl]

You're being a bit redundant, aren't you? I have earlier said that in 9/11-world, debunking of those who challenge the official version of events is a given. It is obviously easy to engage in such debunking as doing so avoids the necessity to confront the awful inferences that necessarily accompany the questioning of the official myth.

Please try to keep up.

Lets start with the basics. Do you agree that 4 hijacked airplanes caused all the death and destruction on 9/11?

[Pardalis]

I'm sorry, I should have known that asking a racist truther to come up with evidence is "over the top".

[MikeW]

The claim of "arrival time" is not at all supported by that quotation. Clearly, and at best, the language is ambiguous and it is not essential to explain in detail why the language is ambiguous. Suffice to say that all one has to do is read it to see that it does not support an arrival time claim at all.
Sure, you can if you like suggest that Maria meant to say something like "saw the van parked". Unfortunately there are reports of them "dancing" earlier, prior to making the trip to Maria's parking lot, and after the planes were hit (there's a reference to this at the bottom of the page). Best explanation is they made the trip to the parking lot after the towers were hit.

[WildCat]

Re post #6
That "quote" button is too complicated for you to figure out huh?

That post is quite worthy of 9/11-world where neither science nor reason matter much.
Particularly when you're a truther and lacking in both of those things. That's why over 8 years after 9/11 no truther has managed to get a paper published in a peer-reviewed science journal.

But what more could be expected from a group whose members can't even figure out a "quote" button on an internet forum?

[Thunder]

Israelis are not Semites. They are of Eastern European descent and are, therefore, Caucasian. .

Does this include the 100,000 Israeli Jews who are from Ethiopia, and the 2.8 million Israeli Jews who are from North Africa and the Middle East?

Oh, and what about the Sephardic Jews. They came from Spain and Portugal. Clearly not Eastern European.

Read up on Jewish history my friend. You need it.

:D

p.s.....I forgot the 150,000 Kurdish Jews who live in Israel.

[jammonius]

Lets start with the basics. Do you agree that 4 hijacked airplanes caused all the death and destruction on 9/11?

Before I answer your query, do tell:

Is the question in the nature of a loyalty oath or a litmus test of legitimacy of some kind or another?

Thanks in advance for your anticipated reply.

[Pardalis]

Does this include the 100,000 Israeli Jews who are from Ethiopia, and the 2.8 million Israeli Jews who are from North Africa and the Middle East?

Oh, and what about the Sephardic Jews. They came from Spain and Portugal. Clearly not Eastern European.

Read up on Jewish history my friend. You need it.

:D

p.s.....I forgot the 150,000 Kurdish Jews who live in Israel.

Not that any of that matters as to what happened on 9/11, except for jammonius of course, he seemed to make it a special point in his OP.

[BigAl]

Before I answer your query, do tell:

Is the question in the nature of a loyalty oath or a litmus test of legitimacy of some kind or another?

Thanks in advance for your anticipated reply.

It's an attempt to gauge your attachment to facts and reality.

If you answer "yes", the discussion may one one way. If you answer "no",
you will be presented with more facts about aviation than you can possibly imagine.

Or is this too reductionist for you.

[WildCat]

Not that any of that matters as to what happened on 9/11, except for jammonius of course, he seemed to make it a special point in his OP.
He's just trying to pre-emptively deflect the inevitable charge of anti-semitism when he reveals the shocking truth that Jews did 9/11.

[jammonius]

[QUOTE=WildCat;5099389]Particularly when you're a truther and lacking in both of those things. That's why over 8 years after 9/11 no truther has managed to get a paper published in a peer-reviewed science journal.
QUOTE]

The above is naive in the extreme and totally unaware of a major premise that has been set out in this thread; namely: That the offical 911myth must be adhered to in order to protect vital individual and societal interests and that confronting the possibility that 9/11 was an intentional false flag operation is simply too painful to consider.

Peer-reviewed science publishing, and mainstream scientific journals are as much a part of mainstream industry as anything else is. Scientific publishing is subject to (a) governmental funding; (b) military-industrial-complex support and money; and/or (c) adherence to American foreign policy interests, like that of having a fig leaf for bombing the beejeezus out of dirt poor Middle Eastern and Central Asian countries.

Those who bask in so-called debunking are basically glorifying in a process akin to shooting fish in a barrel; or, as Cheney was wont to do, shooting ducks that are trapped in a confined space, all the while calling that good hunting.

It is easy to debunk 9/11 truthers because the need to do so is overwhelming.

And here's another thing about it, that you may take into consideration:

So long as the USA engages in warring in Central Asia or anywhere else under the fig leaf of fighting 'terrorists' there will be no scientific article in any peer-reviewed journal that is subject to american influence or control that in any significant way puts forward evidence of how the destruction wrought on 9/11 was actually done.

All such references to either peer-review or to 'proof' of what happened on 9/11 that are laid in front of 9/11 truthers are, at best, disengenuous as the need to believe the official 911myth is based on protecting vital interests.

[jammonius]

He's just trying to pre-emptively deflect the inevitable charge of anti-semitism when he reveals the shocking truth that Jews did 9/11.

I do not take kindly to your attempt to put words that I have not said into my mouth. I have not said "Jews did 9/11" and I will not say such a thing as doing so is overly simplistic and inaccurate.

[jammonius]

Does this include the 100,000 Israeli Jews who are from Ethiopia, and the 2.8 million Israeli Jews who are from North Africa and the Middle East?

Oh, and what about the Sephardic Jews. They came from Spain and Portugal. Clearly not Eastern European.

Read up on Jewish history my friend. You need it.

:D

p.s.....I forgot the 150,000 Kurdish Jews who live in Israel.

How many Israelis are of Eastern European descent?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

How many Israelis are of Eastern European descent?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

The askehnazi jews (I'm assuming those are the ones you are referring to) are of middle eastern descent too.

[jammonius]

It's an attempt to gauge your attachment to facts and reality.

If you answer "yes", the discussion may one one way. If you answer "no",
you will be presented with more facts about aviation than you can possibly imagine.

Or is this too reductionist for you.

Thank you for your reply. Yes, it is too reductionist for me.

[jammonius]

The askehnazi jews (I'm assuming those are the ones you are referring to) are of middle eastern descent too.

I repeat:

How many Israelis are of Eastern European descent?

And again, thank you in advance for your reply to that query.

[Thunder]

How many Israelis are of Eastern European descent?

Thank you in advance for your reply.

between 55 and 60% of Israeli Jews are Ashkenazi. The rest are from North Afica, the Middle East, and Ethiopia.

Clearly, the idea that all Israeli Jews are Eastern European is a pure LIE.

[Thunder]

The askehnazi jews (I'm assuming those are the ones you are referring to) are of middle eastern descent too.


yeah....2,000 years ago....with a lot of mixture and conversion of Europeans in between.

so that don't count.

[WildCat]

I do not take kindly to your attempt to put words that I have not said into my mouth. I have not said "Jews did 9/11" and I will not say such a thing as doing so is overly simplistic and inaccurate.
Right, you'll use a code word like "Zionists". :rolleyes:

[Redtail]

The above is naive in the extreme and totally unaware of a major premise that has been set out in this thread; namely: That the offical 911myth must be adhered to in order to protect vital individual and societal interests and that confronting the possibility that 9/11 was an intentional false flag operation is simply too painful to consider.

Incorrect, the possibility that 9/11 was an intentional false flag op has been considered by most if not all on this sub forum and said possibility has been found lacking in evidence.

Peer-reviewed science publishing, and mainstream scientific journals are as much a part of mainstream industry as anything else is. Scientific publishing is subject to (a) governmental funding; (b) military-industrial-complex support and money; and/or (c) adherence to American foreign policy interests, like that of having a fig leaf for bombing the beejeezus out of dirt poor Middle Eastern and Central Asian countries.
Ok, so you know little to nothing about peer-review.

Those who bask in so-called debunking are basically glorifying in a process akin to shooting fish in a barrel; or, as Cheney was wont to do, shooting ducks that are trapped in a confined space, all the while calling that good hunting.

Well that part is somewhat true. See for those who are knowledgeable about physics, engineering, Aircraft, etc...it is akin to shooting fish in a barrel. The rest of us listen to the people who know what they are talking about. We learn.

It is easy to debunk 9/11 truthers because the need to do so is overwhelming.

No, it's easy because 9/11 truthers ignore the sciences that explain what happened that day thus they are lacking in facts and evidence.

And here's another thing about it, that you may take into consideration:

So long as the USA engages in warring in Central Asia or anywhere else under the fig leaf of fighting 'terrorists' there will be no scientific article in any peer-reviewed journal that is subject to american influence or control that in any significant way puts forward evidence of how the destruction wrought on 9/11 was actually done.

Even if this were true, what does that tell you truthers should do to get said evidence out there?

All such references to either peer-review or to 'proof' of what happened on 9/11 that are laid in front of 9/11 truthers are, at best, disengenuous as the need to believe the official 911myth is based on protecting vital interests.

What?

[funk de fino]

I do not take kindly to your attempt to put words that I have not said into my mouth. I have not said "Jews did 9/11" and I will not say such a thing as doing so is overly simplistic and inaccurate.

You have posted lies about jet fuel fires though. Not a good start.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I repeat:

How many Israelis are of Eastern European descent?

And again, thank you in advance for your reply to that query.

I'm Dutch-English-Blackfoot on dad's side. Scottish-Danish on moms. Does my scottish blood eliminate the blackfoot? Does ther english blood eliminate the danish? No, of course not.

How many Israelis have european blood? Probably millions. But that's an irrelevant and useless question.

The question you want to ask is how many Israelis have NO middle-eastern blood?

But I don't think you'll like the answer.

[BigAl]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, it is too reductionist for me.

Then in my opinion this discussion is best in the Religion & Philosophy forum.

[JohnG]

Re post #6

That post is quite worthy of 9/11-world where neither science nor reason matter much. And, that observation is not a criticism. It is perfectly consistent with human social interaction to avoid looking at the possibility that entities that one trusts implicitly and the "side" that one dearly loves to root for, adhere in and otherwise kowtow to, has engaged in betrayal and treason to such a blatant degree as to purposely kill many of us, blame it on someone else and then use that blame to launch wars and financial fraud that kills more of us and bankrupts all of us as a whole.

Small wonder sites like 911myths -- stupidly simplistic though they may be -- have their adherents. All of this is understandable. One might even go so far as to say those who ferverently support the official version of what happened on 9/11 are engaging in rational behavior; and, those who cannot bring themselves to ignore laws of physics, science and their own capacity to reason are, in fact, engaging in the risky behavior of challenging a dearly held societal norm.

The claim that 9/11 was caused by a combination of governmental insiders, branches of the military-industrial-complex, with or without Israeli links, is far too much for most people to entertain, no matter how glaringly obvious the evidence in support of that claim is. Similarly, Semites from the Middle East are going to continue to be blamed for the event no matter how preposterous the explanation and no matter how weak, contradictory and/or nonexistent the evidence supporting the claim might be.

That said, let's all continue to play our respective parts in unraveling the truth of that stunningly wicked episode of 'shock & awe' warring that was carried out against us on 9/11/01.


A few questions:

1. If the US Government is as evil as you suppose (or if it is at least perceived as such in certain quarters), why wouldn't there be radical groups around the world angry and motivated enough to strike back at their oppressor? In other words, isn't a 9/11 type event be the sort of thing you'd inevitably expect to happen when people are sufficiently outraged and afraid of the Government?

2. You speak of possibilities. The world is full of "possibilities". There is a possibility that a serial killer is hiding in my closet, waiting to kill me when I go to bed tonight, and yet I think this possibility is so remote that I can't even be bothered to open the closet door to verify it. I think the chances of a serial killer in my closet are many orders of magnitude more likely than any of the 31 flavors of 9/11 MIHOP, so why would I demand a new investigation? The more important question is, why aren't you doing more to demand a new investigation?

2. Let's say for the sake of argument the US Government did "Make It Happen On Purpose". Why not just fly planes into buildings as the so called "Official Theory" claims? Do you think the attacks wouldn't have been just as infamous without the collapse of the buildings? The Lockerbie bombing still has the power to cause a major international uproar over 20 years after it happened and that was one plane full of people and a few people on the ground. Why would anyone be so perversely stupid as to try to frame someone for one crime by committing a completely different crime?

3. In your quieter moments away from the computer, do you ever try to piece together a coherent narrative of what would have been required to plan and execute the sort of MIHOP scenario you seem to be hinting at? Does it make any sense to you?

4. Why is it that the only people who seem to think the collapses of the twin towers violated the laws of physics are people who never studied physics? In the Internet age, just about anyone who knows how to use Google can delude themselves into thinking that they are now an expert on everything. Call me old fashioned, but I still defer to experts who went to school to learn their area of expertise and/or put in many years of experience and have actual achievements to their name in the fields in which they are associated with.

5. Does that warm, fuzzy feeling that comes from stroking your own ego as a crusader for the truth really compensate for the fact that you must necessarily have such a misanthropically low opinion of just about every other person on the face of the Earth?

[Thunder]

when is anyone gonna provide any evidence that these 5 dancing Jews were terrorists?

oh yeah, the van that DIDN'T blow up near the WTC. I forgot.

[jammonius]

between 55 and 60% of Israeli Jews are Ashkenazi. The rest are from North Afica, the Middle East, and Ethiopia.

Clearly, the idea that all Israeli Jews are Eastern European is a pure LIE.

Your post is, in my view, too self-congratulatory. You assert that 55-60% of Israelis are Ashkenazi, but you fail to mention, for the benefit of posters who may not know it, that the term Ashkenazi references Eastern European descent.

Based on your prior posts, one could easily have assumed that almost no Israelis were of Eastern European descent when, in fact, even by your own estimate, a majority of them are.

[WildCat]

Your post is, in my view, too self-congratulatory. You assert that 55-60% of Israelis are Ashkenazi, but you fail to mention, for the benefit of posters who may not know it, that the term Ashkenazi references Eastern European descent.

Based on your prior posts, one could easily have assumed that almost no Israelis were of Eastern European descent when, in fact, even by your own estimate, a majority of them are.
And therefore you can't be an anti-semite when you blame "zionists" for 9/11, correct?

[dafydd]

Offended? I do not take offense at anonymous postings that are critical of anonymous postings. Further, I have already indicated that it is quite rational to avoid, at all costs, including those of suspending reason, not to mention disbelief, having to consider the possibility that 9/11 was a purposeful act of deception so as to foment warring and financial fraud. In other words, kill and beggar us.

Arrival Time:

Although it is pointless to actually reveal the stunning stupidity of 911myths, I suppose, as this thread is in an early stage of development, that it is useful to demonstrate the stupid simplicity of the claim of debunking.

In point of fact, the claim that the Israelis arrived after Tower 1 had been damaged by an explosive hi-tech weapon rests upon a highly particularized and unsupported grammatical assumption derived from the following:

"MARIA: Like a few minutes must have gone on, and all of a sudden down there I see this van park. And I see three guys on top of the van, and I'm trying, you know, to look at the building but what caught my attention, they seemed to be taking a movie."

The claim of "arrival time" is not at all supported by that quotation. Clearly, and at best, the language is ambiguous and it is not essential to explain in detail why the language is ambiguous. Suffice to say that all one has to do is read it to see that it does not support an arrival time claim at all.

Moreover, we must never forget that we are in 9/11-world here. Reason does not matter, and grammar sure as hades doesn't mean a dam thing here.

Adherents will adhere and those who have some courage and who take seriously the claim that the USA is the "home of the brave" will not let the travesty perpetrated on 9/11/01 succumb to the social pressure to conform and to go along with the official version of what happened.

When you say '9/11 world',I presume you mean the real world?

[jammonius]

You have posted lies about jet fuel fires though. Not a good start.


Are you a genuine deity having some basis in the supernatural to make pronouncements of what is or is not a lie? If so, pray tell, who are you?

[jammonius]

when is anyone gonna provide any evidence that these 5 dancing Jews were terrorists?

oh yeah, the van that DIDN'T blow up near the WTC. I forgot.

Wait a minute. The above is an egregious fallacy, where a shift in premise has taken place.

The 5 dancing Israelis were not exonerated. Rather, they were released from jail after 71 or 72 days based on a decision to release them that was authorized by higher level authority than that involved in their arrest and in the investigation of them and of their actions.

The 5 dancing Israelis were not ever sent to Guantanamo and were not ever tortured to death and were not ever seriously considered to have been in on the 9/11 operation. This is understandable. Had their actions actually been a part of the operation, and had they been indicted or tried by a kangaroo court, then, in that event, the official 911myth would not be sustainable in a pure enough and simple enough form for public consumption.

[jammonius]

A few questions:

1. If the US Government is as evil as you suppose (or if it is at least perceived as such in certain quarters), why wouldn't there be radical groups around the world angry and motivated enough to strike back at their oppressor? In other words, isn't a 9/11 type event be the sort of thing you'd inevitably expect to happen when people are sufficiently outraged and afraid of the Government?

2. You speak of possibilities. The world is full of "possibilities". There is a possibility that a serial killer is hiding in my closet, waiting to kill me when I go to bed tonight, and yet I think this possibility is so remote that I can't even be bothered to open the closet door to verify it. I think the chances of a serial killer in my closet are many orders of magnitude more likely than any of the 31 flavors of 9/11 MIHOP, so why would I demand a new investigation? The more important question is, why aren't you doing more to demand a new investigation?

2. Let's say for the sake of argument the US Government did "Make It Happen On Purpose". Why not just fly planes into buildings as the so called "Official Theory" claims? Do you think the attacks wouldn't have been just as infamous without the collapse of the buildings? The Lockerbie bombing still has the power to cause a major international uproar over 20 years after it happened and that was one plane full of people and a few people on the ground. Why would anyone be so perversely stupid as to try to frame someone for one crime by committing a completely different crime?

3. In your quieter moments away from the computer, do you ever try to piece together a coherent narrative of what would have been required to plan and execute the sort of MIHOP scenario you seem to be hinting at? Does it make any sense to you?

4. Why is it that the only people who seem to think the collapses of the twin towers violated the laws of physics are people who never studied physics? In the Internet age, just about anyone who knows how to use Google can delude themselves into thinking that they are now an expert on everything. Call me old fashioned, but I still defer to experts who went to school to learn their area of expertise and/or put in many years of experience and have actual achievements to their name in the fields in which they are associated with.

5. Does that warm, fuzzy feeling that comes from stroking your own ego as a crusader for the truth really compensate for the fact that you must necessarily have such a misanthropically low opinion of just about every other person on the face of the Earth?

I don't agree that the above formulation can be considered questions. Instead, you have engaged in rhetoric. Mind you, I would be willing to answer questions, provided you choose to pose any that can be said to be legitimate.

Try again

[jammonius]

And therefore you can't be an anti-semite when you blame "zionists" for 9/11, correct?

Your nakedly obvious attempts to bait me into saying things that I have not said are taking on an air of desparation.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

The 5 dancing Israelis were not exonerated. Rather, they were released from jail after 71 or 72 days based on a decision to release them.

I don't know what country you live in, but arrested = guilty doesn't work under the US system.

No evidence of ever having commited a crime is better than being accused, tried and exonerated, IMO.

that was authorized by higher level authority than that involved in their arrest and in the investigation of them and of their actions.

That's how people get released from jail.

[jammonius]

Here's another aspect of the issue of scientific, which largely means rational and unbiased, inquiry.

I have in earlier posts indicated that 9/11 truth cannot expect to be included in mainstream american scientific journals at any time in the immediate or foreseeable future, absent a paradigm shift.

However, planet Earth is home to people who speak, write in and publish in other languages. I am reasonably certain that 9/11 truth has made its way into the public domain in some of those other languages.

I will here only offer a simple anecdote that you duplicate. If you google any combination of 9/11 truth terms using google's language tools, you will find that your results will mirror the world's political demarcations. For instance, if you look at German literature, then you'll find the 9/11 truth movement is treated with only a little more respect than it is in the Anglo world. The same is true for French and the Romance languages.

However, if you search in Russian or Arabic, you'll find that 9/11 truth is more highly regarded and respected.

Proponents of the official 911myth who seem prone to jumping up and down in self-congratulatory ecstacy because they can find support for the official myth in American mainstream media, scientific or otherwise, appear to me to be easily entertained.

[jammonius]

I don't know what country you live in, but arrested = guilty doesn't work under the US system.

No evidence of ever having commited a crime is better than being accused, tried and exonerated, IMO.



That's how people get released from jail.

The above is naive to the point of being asinine, in my view. In 9/11-world, if you are Arabic, then getting arrested is not only equivalent to guilt, from the date of 9/11 to and including the present, it is also a sure fire one-way ticket to Guantanamo and/or some other torture chamber along the way.

Had persons of Arabic, that is, Semitic, descent been arrested after dancing and arguably, if not certainly, scoping the WTC in advance of the 9/11 attack, then those individuals would have ended up tortured and sentenced to death. (period)

[BigAl]

The above is naive to the point of being asinine, in my view. In 9/11-world, if you are Arabic, then getting arrested is not only equivalent to guilt, from the date of 9/11 to and including the present, it is also a sure fire one-way ticket to Guantanamo and/or some other torture chamber along the way.


What country do you live in?

[WildCat]

The above is naive to the point of being asinine, in my view. In 9/11-world, if you are Arabic, then getting arrested is not only equivalent to guilt, from the date of 9/11 to and including the present, it is also a sure fire one-way ticket to Guantanamo and/or some other torture chamber along the way.

Had persons of Arabic, that is, Semitic, descent been arrested after dancing and arguably, if not certainly, scoping the WTC in advance of the 9/11 attack, then those individuals would have ended up tortured and sentenced to death. (period)
Really? Do you have an example of anyone, Arab or otherwise, getting arrested in the US and getting sent to Gitmo?

[JohnG]

I don't agree that the above formulation can be considered questions. Instead, you have engaged in rhetoric. Mind you, I would be willing to answer questions, provided you choose to pose any that can be said to be legitimate.

Try again


Don't worry about it. No other Truther has ever really been able to answer any of those questions, either. You could have been the first, but never mind.

I will admit that I might've gone a bit over the line with that last question, but there's nothing wrong with the other four and I have a feeling that deep down you know that.

[Thunder]

Had persons of Arabic, that is, Semitic, descent been arrested after dancing and arguably, if not certainly, scoping the WTC in advance of the 9/11 attack, then those individuals would have ended up tortured and sentenced to death. (period)

And as of yet, not one Arab arrested after 9-11 has been sentenced to death. Period.
And in fact, hundreds of Arabs were arrested and released after it was found they had no connection to 9-11.

Your assertions are silly and totally baseless.

[Thunder]

Your post is, in my view, too self-congratulatory. You assert that 55-60% of Israelis are Ashkenazi, but you fail to mention, for the benefit of posters who may not know it, that the term Ashkenazi references Eastern European descent.


"Israelis are not Semites. They are of Eastern European descent and are, therefore, Caucasian."

These are YOUR words. I think you need to change them to:

"the majority of Israeli Jews are not Semites. Only 40% of Israeli Jews are of non-European descent."

[firecoins]

Are you a genuine deity having some basis in the supernatural to make pronouncements of what is or is not a lie? If so, pray tell, who are you?
yes he is.

Did 19 Islamic terrorists hijack 4 planes and carsh them? Yes or No? It is that simple.

[jammonius]

"Israelis are not Semites. They are of Eastern European descent and are, therefore, Caucasian."

These are YOUR words. I think you need to change them to:

"the majority of Israeli Jews are not Semites. Only 40% of Israeli Jews are of non-European descent."

Perhaps. But, since it is acknowledged that a landslide-level majority of Israelis are Caucasian, it does not add anything of substance to agree to the correction you are urging.

Further, in addition to being an overwhelming numeric majority, European-Israelis also appear, at least anecdotally, to dominate Israeli society. I, myself, have not ever encountered or seen on teevee even (when I watched that control-medium, that is) an Israeli who did not appear to be of European descent. For instance, there are, we are told, Israelis who are of Ethopian descent, and, indeed, Ethopians point very specifically to their Jewish heritage, so we know there must be Israelis of Ethopian descent, yet, I don't recall anyone fitting that description coming, say, to meet with any US cabinet officials. I'm sure there must be examples of this; all I'm saying is I haven't encountered it.

The closest I've ever come to this is meeting an acknowledged Mossad agent who was an Israeli citizen, of Ethopian descent. Come to think of it, he did tell me that there were quite a few such persons in a certain area of Jerusalem, I think.

In short, it is too pedantic, I think, to agree to correct the statement I made. For purposes of discussion in this thread, the statement stands.

Thank you for your inquiry.

[jammonius]

And as of yet, not one Arab arrested after 9-11 has been sentenced to death. Period.
And in fact, hundreds of Arabs were arrested and released after it was found they had no connection to 9-11.

Your assertions are silly and totally baseless.

Surely you will acknowledge you are being hyper-technical here. The estimated 1million Iraqis killed by US bombs/bullets/lasers/du/phosphorus/ andgoodnessknowswhatallelsehideouskinky/weapons used by the US armada there and in Afghanistan and Pakistan andgoodnesswhereallelse might disagree with your hyper-technicality. Indeed, one might reasonably conclude that a huge number of Arabs have been sentenced to death. (period)

[WildCat]

The estimated 1million Iraqis killed by US bombs/bullets/lasers/du/phosphorus/ andgoodnessknowswhatallelsehideouskinky/weapons used by the US armada there
More lies from a truther!

[jammonius]

I think a return to the evidence concerning the 5 dancing Israelis is in order. The use of grammar really does not exonerate them. It would have been imminently reasonable to put them on trial based on the apparent evidence that they had foreknowledge of the attack on the WTC.

And, the acquisation that they knew in advance what was to happen can not be understated in terms of its seriousness.

Their apparent knowledge is, indeed, a stunning piece of evidence that dwarfs, all by itself, anything that can have linked Usama bin Laden to the attack. Of course, it is well known that for his part, Usama bin Laden denied he had anything to do with the attack. Instead, and come to think of it, he did say that "Jews" who were a part of the US government within a government did it.

No one, to my knowledge has ever accused bin Laden of being anti-semitic. Indeed, any such claim would expose the absurdity of the word itself. bin Laden IS semitic. What is supposed to be therefore, anti-himself?

Of course I know the answer to the latter query: The word "anti-semite" excludes semites from its meaning. Thus, the word itself makes no sense.

[Thunder]

Their apparent knowledge is, indeed, a stunning piece of evidence that dwarfs, all by itself, anything that can have linked Usama bin Laden to the attack. Of course, it is well known that for his part, Usama bin Laden denied he had anything to do with the attack. Instead, and come to think of it, he did say that "Jews" who were a part of the US government within a government did it. .

Lie. Osama took credit and said he had foreknowledge of the attacks several times.

And Osama clearly does hate Jews.

[jammonius]

More lies from a truther!

How many people in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan does 911myths.com acknowledge the US armada has killed?

[Thunder]

. Indeed, one might reasonably conclude that a huge number of Arabs have been sentenced to death. (period)

First you talk about Arabs being arrested for 9-11 and being tortured to death. A lie.

Now you are talking about Iraqis dieing from 2003 to 2009.

So, what ARE you talking about???

[BigAl]

Their apparent knowledge is, indeed, a stunning piece of evidence that dwarfs, all by itself, anything that can have linked Usama bin Laden to the attack. Of course, it is well known that for his part, Usama bin Laden denied he had anything to do with the attack.


Why and how we know that bin Laden perpetrated 9/11

Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda Updated 5/22/09

http://911links.webs.com/binLaden.htm

Table Of Contents
[1] NEWS (Jan 2001) Some See U.S. as Terrorists' Next Big Target
[2] (Jan 2001) ObL Tells Reporter that US attacks are comming.
[3] New York Times reports about al Queda about 89 times prior to 9/11/2001
[4] bin Laden quotes
[5] Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology
[6] 1996: bin Laden declares war on America.
[7] ObL attacks on America prior to 2001 listed
[8] Specific attack warnings
[9] Bibliography
[10] 1998 ObL Fatwa calling for attack on the US
[11] Complete 9/11 timeline
[12] Answer to "bin Laden not wanted by FBI"
[13] US Government "Wanted" poster for biin Ladem

[1] -------------------------------------
NEWS: Some See U.S. as Terrorists' Next Big Target
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/13/news/mn-53626
Bin Laden Is Said to Be at Center of Loose Web
By John-Thor Dahlburg
January 13, 2000 in print edition A-1
...
U.S. and European authorities say that at the center of
this web, which has been loosely spun from the Philippines
to North America, is Saudi militant Osama bin Laden. A
former Afghan moujahedeen, or holy warrior, the 43-year-old
Bin Laden is on the FBI's 10-most-wanted list for allegedly
sponsoring the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya
and Tanzania that killed 224 people.
In a development indicative of Bin Laden's esteem among his
brothers in arms, after the United States succeeded in obtaining a

U.N. Security Council resolution in October demanding
bin Laden's extradition from Afghanistan, GIA leader Antar Zouabri
issued a letter that condemned the West for persecuting
Islamic militants and that vowed reprisals.

French officials said Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian national arrested
Dec. 14 in Washington state on suspicion of plotting a bombing in
the United States, received his military training at one of Bin Laden's
camps in eastern Afghanistan.

According to the French, the 33-year-old North African belonged to
the "Roubaix gang," a band of armed robbers of Algerian, Bosnian and
French origin who trained in Islamic camps in Bosnia-Herzegovina and
carried out a series of holdups in Belgium and northern France in
early 1996.

Judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere, one of France's top anti-terrorism
investigators, says a flexible, diffuse and worldwide structure
makes Muslim extremism a growing problem that demands more
intense cross-border cooperation.
In the space of one month, the French judge's investigations took
him as far afield as Canada and Australia.

"The Islamic extremist threat is the Internet of terrorism," Bruguiere said.
[2] ---------------------------------------------------------------
June, 2001: ObL Tells London reporter "attacks are coming.
June 21st, 2001: Bakr Atyani, a reporter for Saudi
Arabian owned broadcaster Middle East Broadcasting
Corp. meets with Osama bin Laden and his aides
in a desert area of Afghanistan. According
to Atyani, "Bin Laden seemed happy with the talks
of his aides who said that the coming weeks will
hold important surprises that will target American
and Israeli interests in the world."

June 22nd, 2001: The US State Department
issued a "Worldwide Caution" regarding the risk of a
terrorist attack by extremist groups. It specifically
mentioned groups with links to Bin Laden and his
Al Queda organization as possible sources for the threat.

June 22nd, 2001: US military forces throughout the
Persian Gulf were put on a heightened state of alert.

June 22nd, 2001: A U.S. Marine Corps
contingent in Jordan cut short its training session and
returned to its ships.
June 22nd, 2001:
U.S. 5th Fleet sent its ships out of port in Bahrain.
June 23rd, 2001: Middle East Broadcasting Corp reported
that followers of Bin Laden were planning an attack
on American and Israeli interests within the next few
weeks. Bakr Atyani's interview with Bin Laden is a
featured report.
June 24th: Taliban officials responde
http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=7743
Described in Bamford [9] Starting on p.16

[3] ---------------------------------------------------------------
"al Queda" was first mentioned in the NY Times on
August 28, 1998 and an estimated 89 times prior to
9/11/2001. A computer at any library can be used
to find all the stories by searching the NYT archives.

[4] -------- bin Laden quotes-----------------------------------
http://iraqwar.org/binladenquotes.htm
[5] ---------------------------------------------------------------
Congressional Research Service
Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology
Updated July 9, 2007
Christopher M. Blanchard, Analyst in Middle Eastern Affairs
- http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL32759.pdf
...The third and "ultimate objective," according to
Al Adl, (*) "was to prompt [the United States] to come
out of its hole." Al Adl claims that Al Qaeda wanted
to provoke the United States into attacking areas
of the Islamic world associated with the
organization and its affiliates. In doing so, Al Adl
claims, Al Qaeda hoped to make it easier to attack
elements of U.S. power and to build its "credibility
in front of [the Islamic] nation and the
beleaguered people of the world." Al Adl and others have conceded that the attacks
on New York and Washington were not totally
successful, while arguing that the September 11
attack "was enough to prompt the Americans to carry
out the anticipated response" - namely direct military action
within the Islamic world. ...In December 2004, Bin Laden identified the conflict
in Iraq as "a golden and unique opportunity" for
jihadists to engage and defeat the United States,
and he characterized the insurgency in Iraq as the
central battle in a "Third World War, which the
Crusader-Zionist coalition began against the Islamic
nation." 24 (*) Al-Qa'ida Leader Sayf al-Adl OSC Report -
GMP2005060637100, May 21, 2005
[6] ----------------------------------------------------
1966: bin Laden declares war on America http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/opf980830a.htm
[7] -----------------------------
ObL Early attacks and aid for attacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Militant_activity
[8] ----------------------------------------
Specific attack warnings
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&warning_signs:_specific_cases
Spying Blind by Amy Zegart.
Apr 2001, MASSOUD Tells us bin Laden and AQ will attach us "Through Northern Alliance intelligence efforts,
the late commander Massoud gained limited knowledge
regarding the intentions of the Saudi millionaire,
Usama bin Laden and his terrorist organization, al-Qaida,
to perform a terrorist act against the U.S.,
on a scale larger than the 1998 bombing of the U.S.
embassies in Kenya and Tanzania." http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/11/06/massoud.cable/index.html

[9] ------------ Bibliography --------------

Al Qaeda Now - Understanding today's terrorists - Ed. by Greenberg Lots of good ObL quotes
9/11 Comission Report Ch. 6.3
The Commission - The Uncensored History Of The 9/11 Investigation by Shenon, Philip
Messages to the world; The statements of Osama bin Laden translated by Bruce Lawrence
Congressional Report for Congress; Al Qaede: Statements and Evolving Ideology
The Power of Nightmares VIDEO (3 parts)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares
The Shadow Factory - The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 by Bamford
PBS Nova Spy Factory
Ghost Wars by Cole
The Looming Tower - Wright
The bin Ladens by Cole
Spying Blind by Amy Zegart.
[10] ------------------------------------------------------------
1998 Fatwa calling for war abainst the US
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a022298fatwaexpands&scale=0#a022298fatwaexpands
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

[11] --------------------------------
Complete 9/11 timeline
http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project
[12] ---------------------------------------
Answer to "bin Laden not wanted by FBI"
November 6, 2001 the Bush administration handed
such prosecutions over to the DoD and said this
circumvented the 5th ammedment requirement for
indictments
www.usdoj.gov/olc/2001/pub-millcommfinal.pdf
www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1113-07.htm
[13] -----------------------------------------------
http://www.nctc.gov/site/profiles/bin_ladin.html
Usama Bin Ladin is wanted in connection with the
11 September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center
and the Pentagon and for the 7 August 1998 bombings
of the US Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and
Nairobi, Kenya. The embassy bombings killed 224 civilians and
wounded more than 5,000 others. Usama Bin Ladin and
other terrorists—specifically Ayman al-Zawahiri, Fazul Abdullah
Mohammed, Fahid Mohammed Ally Msalam, Sheikh Ahmed Salim
Swedan, Abdullah Ahmed Abdullah, Saif al-Adel, Anas al-Liby,
Ahmed Mohamed Hamed Ali, and others already in custody—
are members of al-Qa‘ida, the international terrorist network
headed by Bin Ladin.

[jammonius]

Lie. Osama took credit and said he had foreknowledge of the attacks several times.

And Osama clearly does hate Jews.

You're showing an addiction to the official 911myth here, I'm afraid. UBL did deny involvment in an official statement attributed to him and in a statement that the US intelligence community regards as authentic. Most of the statements or videos where UBL is said to have acknowledged that he carried out the 9/11 attacks are suspect.

Even the most ferverent adherents to the official 911myth will be willing to admit that statements vilifying, from an American perspective, UBL might be tainted as being a necessary part of the official myth.

Look, you don't have to feign righteous indignation here. It is already acknowledged that adherence to the official 911myth is close on to an obligation of citizenship in America.

In a situation where truth does not matter, why is it necessary to insist upon it so much?

Pray tell

You can review no greater and no lesser a source than wikipedia to see where UBL denied he had anything to do with 911myth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden

I'm not sure you've proven UBL hates Jews, maybe he does, for all I know. All I said was I haven't seen him referred to as being anti-semitic and that if he were to be referred to in that manner, the reference would reveal the absurdity of the word itself.

[Thunder]

You're showing an addiction to the official 911myth here, I'm afraid. .

yes, you are right. I am addicted to knowing the truth.

[BigAl]

You're showing an addiction to the official 911myth here, I'm afraid. UBL did deny involvment in an official statement attributed to him and in a statement that the US intelligence community regards as authentic.

One more time.. Follow the link to about a years worth or reading about why Adults know that bin Laden was in charge of 9/11.

http://911links.webs.com/binLaden.htm

Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda Updated 5/22/09

Table Of Contents
[1] NEWS (Jan 2001) Some See U.S. as Terrorists' Next Big Target
[2] (Jan 2001) ObL Tells Reporter that US attacks are comming.
[3] New York Times reports about al Queda about 89 times prior to 9/11/2001
[4] bin Laden quotes
[5] Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology
[6] 1996: bin Laden declares war on America.
[7] ObL attacks on America prior to 2001 listed
[8] Specific attack warnings
[9] Bibliography
[10] 1998 ObL Fatwa calling for attack on the US
[11] Complete 9/11 timeline
[12] Answer to "bin Laden not wanted by FBI"
[13] US Government "Wanted" poster for biin Ladem

[jammonius]

Why and how we know that bin Laden perpetrated 9/11

Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda Updated 5/22/09

http://911links.webs.com/binLaden.htm

Table Of Contents
[1] NEWS (Jan 2001) Some See U.S. as Terrorists' Next Big Target
[2] (Jan 2001) ObL Tells Reporter that US attacks are comming.
[3] New York Times reports about al Queda about 89 times prior to 9/11/2001
[4] bin Laden quotes
[5] Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology
[6] 1996: bin Laden declares war on America.
[7] ObL attacks on America prior to 2001 listed
[8] Specific attack warnings
[9] Bibliography
[10] 1998 ObL Fatwa calling for attack on the US
[11] Complete 9/11 timeline
[12] Answer to "bin Laden not wanted by FBI"
[13] US Government "Wanted" poster for biin Ladem

[1] -------------------------------------
NEWS: Some See U.S. as Terrorists' Next Big Target
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/13/news/mn-53626
Bin Laden Is Said to Be at Center of Loose Web
By John-Thor Dahlburg
January 13, 2000 in print edition A-1
...
U.S. and European authorities say that at the center of
this web, which has been loosely spun from the Philippines
to North America, is Saudi militant Osama bin Laden. A
former Afghan moujahedeen, or holy warrior, the 43-year-old
Bin Laden is on the FBI's 10-most-wanted list for allegedly
sponsoring the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Kenya
and Tanzania that killed 224 people.
In a development indicative of Bin Laden's esteem among his
brothers in arms, after the United States succeeded in obtaining a

U.N. Security Council resolution in October demanding
bin Laden's extradition from Afghanistan, GIA leader Antar Zouabri
issued a letter that condemned the West for persecuting
Islamic militants and that vowed reprisals.

French officials said Ahmed Ressam, an Algerian national arrested
Dec. 14 in Washington state on suspicion of plotting a bombing in
the United States, received his military training at one of Bin Laden's
camps in eastern Afghanistan.

According to the French, the 33-year-old North African belonged to
the "Roubaix gang," a band of armed robbers of Algerian, Bosnian and
French origin who trained in Islamic camps in Bosnia-Herzegovina and
carried out a series of holdups in Belgium and northern France in
early 1996.

Judge Jean-Louis Bruguiere, one of France's top anti-terrorism
investigators, says a flexible, diffuse and worldwide structure
makes Muslim extremism a growing problem that demands more
intense cross-border cooperation.
In the space of one month, the French judge's investigations took
him as far afield as Canada and Australia.

"The Islamic extremist threat is the Internet of terrorism," Bruguiere said.
[2] ---------------------------------------------------------------
June, 2001: ObL Tells London reporter "attacks are coming.
June 21st, 2001: Bakr Atyani, a reporter for Saudi
Arabian owned broadcaster Middle East Broadcasting
Corp. meets with Osama bin Laden and his aides
in a desert area of Afghanistan. According
to Atyani, "Bin Laden seemed happy with the talks
of his aides who said that the coming weeks will
hold important surprises that will target American
and Israeli interests in the world."

June 22nd, 2001: The US State Department
issued a "Worldwide Caution" regarding the risk of a
terrorist attack by extremist groups. It specifically
mentioned groups with links to Bin Laden and his
Al Queda organization as possible sources for the threat.

June 22nd, 2001: US military forces throughout the
Persian Gulf were put on a heightened state of alert.

June 22nd, 2001: A U.S. Marine Corps
contingent in Jordan cut short its training session and
returned to its ships.
June 22nd, 2001:
U.S. 5th Fleet sent its ships out of port in Bahrain.
June 23rd, 2001: Middle East Broadcasting Corp reported
that followers of Bin Laden were planning an attack
on American and Israeli interests within the next few
weeks. Bakr Atyani's interview with Bin Laden is a
featured report.
June 24th: Taliban officials responde
http://archive.democrats.com/view.cfm?id=7743
Described in Bamford [9] Starting on p.16

[3] ---------------------------------------------------------------
"al Queda" was first mentioned in the NY Times on
August 28, 1998 and an estimated 89 times prior to
9/11/2001. A computer at any library can be used
to find all the stories by searching the NYT archives.

[4] -------- bin Laden quotes-----------------------------------
http://iraqwar.org/binladenquotes.htm
[5] ---------------------------------------------------------------
Congressional Research Service
Al Qaeda: Statements and Evolving Ideology
Updated July 9, 2007
Christopher M. Blanchard, Analyst in Middle Eastern Affairs
- http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/terror/RL32759.pdf
...The third and "ultimate objective," according to
Al Adl, (*) "was to prompt [the United States] to come
out of its hole." Al Adl claims that Al Qaeda wanted
to provoke the United States into attacking areas
of the Islamic world associated with the
organization and its affiliates. In doing so, Al Adl
claims, Al Qaeda hoped to make it easier to attack
elements of U.S. power and to build its "credibility
in front of [the Islamic] nation and the
beleaguered people of the world." Al Adl and others have conceded that the attacks
on New York and Washington were not totally
successful, while arguing that the September 11
attack "was enough to prompt the Americans to carry
out the anticipated response" - namely direct military action
within the Islamic world. ...In December 2004, Bin Laden identified the conflict
in Iraq as "a golden and unique opportunity" for
jihadists to engage and defeat the United States,
and he characterized the insurgency in Iraq as the
central battle in a "Third World War, which the
Crusader-Zionist coalition began against the Islamic
nation." 24 (*) Al-Qa'ida Leader Sayf al-Adl OSC Report -
GMP2005060637100, May 21, 2005
[6] ----------------------------------------------------
1966: bin Laden declares war on America http://www.outpost-of-freedom.com/opf980830a.htm
[7] -----------------------------
ObL Early attacks and aid for attacks http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osama_bin_Laden#Militant_activity
[8] ----------------------------------------
Specific attack warnings
http://www.historycommons.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&warning_signs:_specific_cases
Spying Blind by Amy Zegart.
Apr 2001, MASSOUD Tells us bin Laden and AQ will attach us "Through Northern Alliance intelligence efforts,
the late commander Massoud gained limited knowledge
regarding the intentions of the Saudi millionaire,
Usama bin Laden and his terrorist organization, al-Qaida,
to perform a terrorist act against the U.S.,
on a scale larger than the 1998 bombing of the U.S.
embassies in Kenya and Tanzania." http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/11/06/massoud.cable/index.html

[9] ------------ Bibliography --------------

Al Qaeda Now - Understanding today's terrorists - Ed. by Greenberg Lots of good ObL quotes
9/11 Comission Report Ch. 6.3
The Commission - The Uncensored History Of The 9/11 Investigation by Shenon, Philip
Messages to the world; The statements of Osama bin Laden translated by Bruce Lawrence
Congressional Report for Congress; Al Qaede: Statements and Evolving Ideology
The Power of Nightmares VIDEO (3 parts)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Nightmares
The Shadow Factory - The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 by Bamford
PBS Nova Spy Factory
Ghost Wars by Cole
The Looming Tower - Wright
The bin Ladens by Cole
Spying Blind by Amy Zegart.
[10] ------------------------------------------------------------
1998 Fatwa calling for war abainst the US
http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a022298fatwaexpands&scale=0#a022298fatwaexpands
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

[11] --------------------------------
Complete 9/11 timeline
http://www.historycommons.org/project.jsp?project=911_project
[12] ---------------------------------------
Answer to "bin Laden not wanted by FBI"
November 6, 2001 the Bush administration handed
such prosecutions over to the DoD and said this
circumvented the 5th ammedment requirement for
indictments
www.usdoj.gov/olc/2001/pub-millcommfinal.pdf
www.commondreams.org/headlines01/1113-07.htm
[13] -----------------------------------------------
http://www.nctc.gov/site/profiles/bin_ladin.html
Usama Bin Ladin is wanted in connection with the
11 September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center
and the Pentagon and for the 7 August 1998 bombings
of the US Embassies in Dar es Salaam, Tanzania, and
Nairobi, Kenya. The embassy bombings killed 224 civilians and
wounded more than 5,000 others. Usama Bin Ladin and
other terrorists—specifically Ayman al-Zawahiri, Fazul Abdullah
Mohammed, Fahid Mohammed Ally Msalam, Sheikh Ahmed Salim
Swedan, Abdullah Ahmed Abdullah, Saif al-Adel, Anas al-Liby,
Ahmed Mohamed Hamed Ali, and others already in custody—
are members of al-Qa‘ida, the international terrorist network
headed by Bin Ladin.

Quantity is not the same as quality. Almost all of the above is either inferential, suppositional and/or based on stupidly secondary sourcing. I think I might have even seen a reference somewhere above to the latimes, or some such -- well, at least it wasn't foxnews.

None of the above compares with actual, on the scene witnessing of actions that are consistent with foreknowledge, as is the case with the 5 dancing and actually arrested Israelis.

A truer comparison would have necessarily involved the arrest of someone who was actually on the scene and who could be said to have had some involvement in the attack. The 5 dancing Israelis fit that criterion. Usama bin Laden, and no other Arab person, for that matter, falls into that evidentiary category.

I suppose if this were ufology, the 5 dancing Israelis would be the one and the only example of a Close Encounter of the Third Kind.

[dafydd]

I still don't know what you're rabbiting on about Jammonius.If a bunch of terrorists did not highjack planes and fly them into buildings could you explain to me in plain English what really happened then?

[R.Mackey]

Isn't it obvious? A bunch of Jews danced. That's what made the buildings collapse.

How the heck did this neo-Nazi escape my Ignore filter? And yours?

[Thunder]

I suppose if this were ufology, the 5 dancing Israelis would be the one and the only example of a Close Encounter of the Third Kind.

The most skillful and secretive spy agency in the World, and you believe they set up a camera on top of a van in Liberty State Park to film the entire thing.

I guess you are suggesting that these 3 "Mossad agents" are the worst intelligence agents on the face of the Earth.

[BigAl]

Quantity is not the same as quality. Almost all of the above is either inferential, suppositional and/or based on stupidly secondary sourcing.


How would you know?

It would take a year to read all that material if you include the books named in the bibliography. It would take me hours just to follow the links and read the material I point to.

In other words, you've blown off a couple years of study in my part.

[jammonius]

The most skillful and secretive spy agency in the World, and you believe they set up a camera on top of a van in Liberty State Park to film the entire thing.

I guess you are suggesting that these 3 "Mossad agents" are the worst intelligence agents on the face of the Earth.

The above is quite interesting. I've seen the same sort of logic, namely, the logic of the story being too simplistic, to support a wide range of 9/11 topics; including, by way of example, the fact that a jetliner could fly around loose for 40 minutes near the Washington DC area and then successfully crash into the Pentagon. The Pentagon, for crying out loud!

As you well know, that observation has been debunked by debunkers. So, do tell, why on earth have you chosen to use the same tactic in re the dancing Israelis?

[Hokulele]

Isn't it obvious? A bunch of Jews danced. That's what made the buildings collapse.

How the heck did this neo-Nazi escape my Ignore filter? And yours?


Because the last time he/she was here, it was in full support of Judy Woods' space-death-beam weapons, which was at least entertaining.

[jammonius]

How would you know?

It would take a year to read all that material if you include the books named in the bibliography. It would take me hours just to follow the links and read the material I point to.

In other words, you've blown off a couple years of study in my part.

Let see if I understand your premise. You posted all that crap with the expectation that I needed to take 2 years to read it before I could reasonably reply?

If that is your premise, then you expect too much from message board communication.

But, since you spent the time to digest the material, can you please say which items of evidence you can name actually involve persons arrested on 9/11/01 in the vicinity of the WTC who, according to some informational set or other set, that demonstrates the possibility of foreknowledge of the attack?

I here repeat: The information that implicates the 5 dancing Israelis as having foreknowledge of the WTC attack is the best evidence against any individual or group of individuals of involvement in that attack that exists, bar none.

[BigAl]

Let see if I understand your premise. You posted all that crap with the expectation that I needed to take 2 years to read it before I could reasonably reply?



You can't say there isn't evidence about ObL until you've read some of it. You certainly can't discuss the evidence which is what we do around here.



But, since you spent the time to digest the material, can you please say which items of evidence you can name actually involve persons arrested on 9/11/01 in the vicinity of the WTC who, according to some informational set or other set, that demonstrates the possibility of foreknowledge of the attack?


What does the above have to do with "ObL did (or didn't) do it"?

[Sword_Of_Truth]

STOP THE PRESSES!

This is actual VIDEO of "semitic" people dancing and celebrating on 9/11.

KrM0dAFsZ8k

[jammonius]

Because the last time he/she was here, it was in full support of Judy Woods' space-death-beam weapons, which was at least entertaining.

And, for what it's worth, I continue to support the scientific work of Dr. Judy Wood that points to the use of directed energy weaponry as a causal factor in the destruction of the WTC complex.

I also congratulate her for exposing the shoddy and fraudulent NIST report that purposefully curtailed its investigation so as to exclude any investigation of what happened to the WTC once the so-called 'collapses' were so-called 'initiated.'

Even an ordinary citizen who dearly wants to believe in the 911myth can reasonably be expected to recognize that the NIST report, that Dr. Wood challenged effectively, is fraudulent for avoiding any investigation of the actual destruction of the WTC. And, by virtue of avoidance of that responsibility, NIST cannot deny, let alone refute Dr. Wood's assertion that DEW destroyed the WTC because NIST did not investigate the destructive interval.

Now, as NIST cannot refute her scientific findings, separate and apart from anything else you might like to say about her work. You don't have to agree with it; and, you can agree with those who disagree with her. Fine. But, what you cannot say is that the official investigatory work contradicts her work; for, indeed, there is no official finding that does so.

How've you been?

[BigAl]

And, for what it's worth, I continue to support the scientific work of Dr. Judy Wood that points to the use of directed energy weaponry as a causal factor in the destruction of the WTC complex.


Haven't had much any science, have you?

[Hokulele]

And, for what it's worth, I continue to support the scientific work of Dr. Judy Wood that points to the use of directed energy weaponry as a causal factor in the destruction of the WTC complex.

I also congratulate her for exposing the shoddy and fraudulent NIST report that purposefully curtailed its investigation so as to exclude any investigation of what happened to the WTC once the so-called 'collapses' were so-called 'initiated.'

Even an ordinary citizen who dearly wants to believe in the 911myth can reasonably be expected to recognize that the NIST report, that Dr. Wood challenged effectively, is fraudulent for avoiding any investigation of the actual destruction of the WTC. And, by virtue of avoidance of that responsibility, NIST cannot deny, let alone refute Dr. Wood's assertion that DEW destroyed the WTC because NIST did not investigate the destructive interval.

Now, as NIST cannot refute her scientific findings, separate and apart from anything else you might like to say about her work. You don't have to agree with it; and, you can agree with those who disagree with her. Fine. But, what you cannot say is that the official investigatory work contradicts her work; for, indeed, there is no official finding that does so.


Heh.

How've you been?


Very well, thank you.

[R.Mackey]

Wow.

I'm guessing, then, this is the guy that Judy dumped poor ol' Ace for?

Get help, friend.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

And, for what it's worth, I continue to support the scientific work of Dr. Judy Wood that points to the use of directed energy weaponry as a causal factor in the destruction of the WTC complex.

I also congratulate her for exposing the shoddy and fraudulent NIST report that purposefully curtailed its investigation so as to exclude any investigation of what happened to the WTC once the so-called 'collapses' were so-called 'initiated.'

Even an ordinary citizen who dearly wants to believe in the 911myth can reasonably be expected to recognize that the NIST report, that Dr. Wood challenged effectively, is fraudulent for avoiding any investigation of the actual destruction of the WTC. And, by virtue of avoidance of that responsibility, NIST cannot deny, let alone refute Dr. Wood's assertion that DEW destroyed the WTC because NIST did not investigate the destructive interval.

Now, as NIST cannot refute her scientific findings, separate and apart from anything else you might like to say about her work. You don't have to agree with it; and, you can agree with those who disagree with her. Fine. But, what you cannot say is that the official investigatory work contradicts her work; for, indeed, there is no official finding that does so.

How've you been?

That's the stupidest pile of **** that's been posted in this subforum in months.

[Thunder]

And, for what it's worth, I continue to support the scientific work of Dr. Judy Wood that points to the use of directed energy weaponry as a causal factor in the destruction of the WTC complex.


I love you.

[LashL]

I also congratulate her for exposing the shoddy and fraudulent NIST report...


Ms. Wood has exposed nothing but her own delusions.

She has made many unfounded, grand accusations against many people, based on her delusions. I would probably feel sorry for Wood if it were not for the fact that she makes baseless accusations against real people, who are then required to defend themselves from the manifestations of her delusions. Fortunately for those whom Wood accuses willy nilly of all manner of misfeasance and malfeasance, defending against her delusions is not difficult. However, it can be expensive, and frivolous lawsuits like Wood's clog up the courts. The result is that Wood's delusions cost other people money and waste valuable judicial resources, making access to justice more difficult for those with legitimate claims. She should be ashamed of herself for that.

[JohnG]

Isn't it obvious? A bunch of Jews danced. That's what made the buildings collapse.


Oh please. Guilty feet have got no rhythm.

[JohnG]

And, for what it's worth, I continue to support the scientific work of Dr. Judy Wood that points to the use of directed energy weaponry as a causal factor in the destruction of the WTC complex.


Mmmm, that's uh, fascinating stuff.

What I still can't wrap my brain around is why "they" just didn't fly planes into buildings?

[triforcharity]

Lets start with the basics. Do you agree that 4 hijacked airplanes caused all the death and destruction on 9/11?

Nope, he is a no-planer. Notice in his OP, he saays ALLEGED planes. He is a CIT guy is my guess.

[triforcharity]

And, for what it's worth, I continue to support the scientific work of Dr. Judy Wood that points to the use of directed energy weaponry as a causal factor in the destruction of the WTC complex.

I also congratulate her for exposing the shoddy and fraudulent NIST report that purposefully curtailed its investigation so as to exclude any investigation of what happened to the WTC once the so-called 'collapses' were so-called 'initiated.'

Even an ordinary citizen who dearly wants to believe in the 911myth can reasonably be expected to recognize that the NIST report, that Dr. Wood challenged effectively, is fraudulent for avoiding any investigation of the actual destruction of the WTC. And, by virtue of avoidance of that responsibility, NIST cannot deny, let alone refute Dr. Wood's assertion that DEW destroyed the WTC because NIST did not investigate the destructive interval.

Now, as NIST cannot refute her scientific findings, separate and apart from anything else you might like to say about her work. You don't have to agree with it; and, you can agree with those who disagree with her. Fine. But, what you cannot say is that the official investigatory work contradicts her work; for, indeed, there is no official finding that does so.

How've you been?

Wow, how do you debunk something as idiotic a space beams?? How?? I can tell you how. Just type these special words.

SPACE BEAMS BLEW UP THE TOWERS.

Done.

I understand that you hate America, but must you make it so obvious??

PS, why do you seem to support the terrorists?? And why do you hate America so much??

[MikeW]

I here repeat: The information that implicates the 5 dancing Israelis as having foreknowledge of the WTC attack is the best evidence against any individual or group of individuals of involvement in that attack that exists, bar none.
Then I repeat, as you weren't listening before: the Urban Moving five were claimed to have been seen "celebrating" the events before they reached Maria's parking lot and got on top of the van to take photos. Here's "What Really Happened", for instance:

Witnesses saw them jumping for joy in Liberty State Park after the initial impact (5). Later on, other witnesses saw them celebrating on a roof in Weehawken, and still more witnesses later saw them celebrating with high fives in a Jersey City parking lot. (6)
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html

According to that truther source at least, the Israelis unambiguously arrived at the parking lot some time after 8:45, so if they'd set up cameras to film the attacks before anything had happened then we'd need to get that information from the Liberty State Park witnesses. Perhaps you might more productively spend your time trying to get those, get some real evidence, rather than the insubstantial garbage you have right now?

[Pardalis]

However, if you search in Russian or Arabic, you'll find that 9/11 truth is more highly regarded and respected.

You have no clue how an internet search engine works do you? I'll clue you in on something, the number of results have nothing to do with respectability or truth, just type in "sex" and you'll see.

andgoodnessknowswhatallelsehideouskinky/weapons used by the US armada

So Muslims are not killing other Muslims in those countries?

[Eyeron]

You know if all Jews had the power to bring down buildings like WTC just by dancing, they wouldn't need to develop nukes or have a nation of their own. They would simply overtly and openly rule the world.

Think of it. Millions of people could destroy entire regions with that kind of power. Why would they need to be subversive about ruling the world?

[jammonius]

Then I repeat, as you weren't listening before: the Urban Moving five were claimed to have been seen "celebrating" the events before they reached Maria's parking lot and got on top of the van to take photos. Here's "What Really Happened", for instance:



According to that truther source at least, the Israelis unambiguously arrived at the parking lot some time after 8:45, so if they'd set up cameras to film the attacks before anything had happened then we'd need to get that information from the Liberty State Park witnesses. Perhaps you might more productively spend your time trying to get those, get some real evidence, rather than the insubstantial garbage you have right now?

The above is mere interpretation. Not only that, it is interpretation of only the most benign type where any and all assumptions that can be used that are favorable to the Urban Movers, as you call them, is given. Not only that, there is even a hint or suggestion that "how dare" one even think the Urban Movers might possibly be involved in the 911attacks.

In sharp contrast to that kind of assumption and presumtion, and, in terms of prosecution, generally, the reverse process is true where the interpretation that is consistent with guilt is the one that is emphasized by the prosecution. It is then up to the defense to assert otherwise.

You, therefore, have done nothing more than come to the defense of the people involved in the dancing atop the van episode. That is fine. Defense against accusations of guilt are appropriate. However, in connection with the 911attacks, it is highly unusual for the authorities to have taken the defense side so early on and it is virtually unprecedented for media not to have super-sensationalized the event and to have super-sensationalized their release as was done, say, for al Megrahi, just recently.

And, by way of further example, the evidence against al Megrahi was not nearly as strong as that against the 5 dancing Israelis. Indeed, it was always curious that al Megrahi was convicted while his co-defendant was acquitted. The only difference was that a single witness, a clothing store owner identified a photo of al Megrahi as being the person who bought an article of clothing traced to the bombing, years prior to the event. And, prior to seeing the photo, that witness knew that al Megrahi was accused and knew what he looked like. In addition, the physical description that witness gave of the person buying the clothes was very different in key respects, like height for example, from al Megrahi. Not only that, keep in mind that a clothing store owner, who daily fits and sizes people for clothing can be expected to have a more than normal capacity to accurately state the height and other dimensions of people. In that case, he was completely wrong about Megrahi, yet he was convicted.

Here, the dancing Israelis should have been put on trial and should have been required to take their chances before military tribunals and other kangaroo courts just like all other 911 suspects have been and are being required to do.

Generally, those who had, were thought possibly to have had and/or had any involvement in any thing that might have been a feasible shred, shard, hint, jot or iota of suspicious activity was generally nailed, literally. And, if they were Islamic and/or Arabic, they are probably still in jail.

[Thunder]

Here, the dancing Israelis should have been put on trial and should have been required to take their chances before military tribunals and other kangaroo courts just like all other 911 suspects have been and are being required to do.


well, they weren't. the israelis were set free and are now sittin on the beach sipping tequila. hahahahaha!!

what ya gonna do about it?

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Are you a genuine deity having some basis in the supernatural to make pronouncements of what is or is not a lie? If so, pray tell, who are you?


Detecting lies does not require supernatural powers.

Unless, of course, you are implying that you are "a genuine deity having some basis in the supernatural to make pronouncements of what is or is not a lie" regarding the generally accepted account of 9/11. (ETA: Or that Judy Wood or other prominent truthers are "genuine deities". Good lord...)

[MikeW]

The above is mere interpretation. Not only that, it is interpretation of only the most benign type where any and all assumptions that can be used that are favorable to the Urban Movers, as you call them, is given. Not only that, there is even a hint or suggestion that "how dare" one even think the Urban Movers might possibly be involved in the 911attacks.
"Mere interpretation"? The Liberty State report is what produced the BOLO that caused the Urban Movers to be arrested in the first place.

As for how "favourable" it is, as I said, that came straight from What Really Happened, probably the most commonly-quoted source for people who want to make the case against the Israelis.

Still, go for it. Give us your interpretation (and the evidence). You say this is a really compelling incident, so you must have some evidence - right?

[jammonius]

"Mere interpretation"? The Liberty State report is what produced the BOLO that caused the Urban Movers to be arrested in the first place.

As for how "favourable" it is, as I said, that came straight from What Really Happened, probably the most commonly-quoted source for people who want to make the case against the Israelis.

Still, go for it. Give us your interpretation (and the evidence). You say this is a really compelling incident, so you must have some evidence - right?

You do nothing more and nothing less than continue the defense of the 5 Israelis who were arrested for being seen celebrating the destruction of the Twin Towers. Evidence already quoted in this thread; namely, the Maria quotation, can be interpreted as being consistent with the Israelis having set up their camera prior to the attack, thus confirming foreknowledge. Foreknowledge by them of the attack on the WTC is evidenced on at least a preliminary basis as a result of Maria's quoted comments.

That is all that it takes to result in, say, waterboarding, where, of course, the 5 Israelis would have undoubtedly admitted that they did indeed have foreknowledge and they would have undoubtedly spilled the beans. That is, they would have done so had they been subjected to the same process as Semitic 911 suspects were submitted to.

The fact that they were not speaks volumes and it is not necessary to be either shrill or insistent about it.

The 5 dancing Israelis were caught in the act of celebrating the attack and were said to have set up shop prior to the attack. That incident is the single best piece of evidence against any person(s) apprehended for the 911 attack.

One reason why it is the best evidence is that it was reported by ordinary American citizens and was not obtained on the basis of coercion, torture and/or the deeply ingrained prediliction to blame Arabs and Muslims.

Look, I am not here seeking any confessions from supporters of the official 911myth. It doesn't work that way, anyway. The official 911myth is too important to the collective American psyche to surrender it no matter what the evidence of its falsity might be.

I'm simply saying that the 5 dancing Israelis were treated far, far differently, and orders of magnitude more favorably than would an Arab caught doing what the Israelis were caught doing.

More than that, there really is a strong case that those dudes knew what was coming.

That is stunning; and that is an understatement.

I shall bow out of this thread at this time. This process has been interesting.

all the best

[MarkyX]

You do nothing more and nothing less than continue the defense of the 5 Israelis who were arrested


Yes they were arrested and weren't charged with being involved with 9/11.

Explain to me why you still continue to say they are guilty of a crime they didn't commit when you just admitted that they were arrested?

[twinstead]

oy vey

[MikeW]

Evidence already quoted in this thread; namely, the Maria quotation, can be interpreted as being consistent with the Israelis having set up their camera prior to the attack, thus confirming foreknowledge.
Here's what Maria said:

(VO) On the morning of September 11th, Maria--who asked us not to use her last name--was home preparing for her day, when she got a call from a friend who lived upstairs in the same New Jersey high-rise.

MARIA: She was sitting when she heard a noise, at the same time she felt like it--it shook--like the building shook, she said. She called me immediately. She said, 'You know, there's--there's something wrong, look at your window by the twin towers.' So I grab my binoculars and I could see the towers from my window. And this is where I, you know, I'm looking. I saw the smoke from the top, just from the top of the towers.

MILLER: (VO) After watching for a little while, something caught Maria's at-tention in the parking lot below her window.

MARIA: Like a few minutes must have gone on, and all of a sudden down there I see this van park. And I see three guys on top of the van, and I'm trying, you know, to look at the building but what caught my attention, they seemed to be taking a movie.

MILLER: (VO) Maria says the three young men were kneeling on the roof of a white van. It was parked right here. They were taking pictures of each other with the World Trade Center burning in the background.
http://911myths.com/index.php/Dancing_Israelis

So: we don't know for sure which impact this is. We don't know first hand the time that elapsed between the impact and the call from the neighbour to Maria. It's not clear how much time elapsed between looking at the buildings and seeing "the van park".

What is clear is that she didn't see the van until some time after the attack had begun, and therefore there's no way Maria can confirm that the Israelis "set up their camera prior to the attack".

What's also clear is that the truther's own case as expressed at What Really Happened says they can't have been filming from Maria's parking lot prior to the attack, because they were reported "celebrating" the attacks earlier, elsewhere.

Still, thanks for validating my initial beliefs about this case. It really is true: you've got nothing.

[Wolrab]

The Israelis knew that the US was going to use death beams death beams to destroy the Towers and set up cameras to film it? Were the planes a heroic last ditch effort by the hijackers to deflect the beams?
Just asking questions.

[Pardalis]

Still, go for it. Give us your interpretation (and the evidence). You say this is a really compelling incident, so you must have some evidence - right?

I guess jammonius' last post was his way of saying 'no', with the use of alot of superfluous words.

[Dave Rogers]

First of all, in 9/11-world, defiance of the laws of physics is readily accepted. Claims that kerosene (which is what jet fuel essentially is) can attain high enough temperatures to cause significant deformation of the structural steel beams that were used to construct the world's tallest skyscrapers (which the Twin Towers were when built), even though the jet fuel in the alleged jetliners that allegedly hit them had <10,000 gals. of such fuel (and that estimate is generous).

In 9/11-world, it does not matter that the amount of jet fuel that jetliners can store is approximately enough to fill an average size backyard swimming pool. The world's tallest (when built) buildings are no match for that amount of kerosene, in part, because in 9/11-world there is always room for an addition to the equation that makes sure the end result is consistent with the official explanation.

This is a classic example of the dishonesty of the truth movement. Debunkers have been trying for years to pound the idea through abnormally thickened skulls that the jet fuel acted as an accelerant, and was not the primary fuel source for the fires which caused the collapses. And yet truthers still feel it necessary to lie about the nature of the well-known and scientifically sound explanation for the collapses in order to give the false impression that it is in some sense implausible. Why should anyone bother answering the loaded questions of habitual liars?

In connection with the 5 dancing Israelis, the tactic of debunking seems to be particularly weak. But that does not matter. The reason why 9/11-debunking is a special genre is that such debunking is self-fulfilling and self congratulatory.

Let me point out that debunking and refutation are not the same thing. Refutation of an argument is the analysis of that argument to find flaws within it, and the demonstration that those flaws render the argument invalid. Debunking tends to represent an earlier stage in debate, in which the main aim is to eliminate the lines of argument that are based on blatant lies, deliberate misinterpretations and misrepresentations of the evidence available. Once we have eliminated these lines of argument, the debate is not over; rather, it's possible for a debate to commence. Unfortunately, once the lie-based arguments of the truth movement are eliminated, it turns out there is nothing left to debate.

The 911myths.com website is simplistic to the point of being simple-minded. It puts Fox News to shame.

I don't watch Fox News, but do they habitually make comments like:


It’s a reasonable literal interpretation, but that doesn’t necessarily make it true:
these may be reports of the allegations they are investigating
Of course it’s difficult to form meaningful conclusions by simply analysing one or two words.
By all means read the Killtown article (http://killtown.blogspot.com/2005/11/dancing-israelis-on-911.html), WhatReallyHappened page (http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html) and anything else you can find for more on these, but be sure you check sources carefully.
Question everything you read, then (even here).

These are the words used by careful analysis with attention to nuance, not blatant propaganda. I would say that you're probably lying, and can tell that there's nothing simplistic about 911 Myths.

In debunking the 5 dancing Israelis, it says the NYTimes was inaccurate and then relies, for purposes of debunking, upon the statement of the person who saw and reported what they thought was suspicious activity.

This is what historians would refer to as reliance on primary sources rather than seconsdary sources. Would you like to expound your theory on why secondary sources should be considered more reliable than the primary sources they themselves draw upon?

My assertion is that had they been Semitic in ethnicity, they would have remained in jail longer, likely at Quantanamo and would have been tortured, as that is consistent with the deep desire to further the official 9/11 myth.

Please list the qualifications that would give this assertion any weight whatsoever. At the moment you're appealing to your own authority, without establishing any authority to appeal to.

Dave

[dudalb]

Isn't it obvious? A bunch of Jews danced. That's what made the buildings collapse.

How the heck did this neo-Nazi escape my Ignore filter? And yours?

Because he has only recently come out of the closet as a Jew Baiter. Until recently he was just another garden variety 9/11 Truth kook.

[oldhat]

You do nothing more and nothing less than continue the defense of the 5 Israelis who were arrested for being seen celebrating the destruction of the Twin Towers.

Dancing Jews? You sure it wasn't the Chabad Telethon?

[zorro99]

What Role Did The U.S.-Israeli Relationship Play In 9-11?

By Jeff Gates

September 13, 2009 "Information Clearing House" --- On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good. Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)."

Intelligence wars rely on mathematical models to anticipate the response of "the mark" to staged provocations. Reactions thereby become foreseeable-within an acceptable range of probabilities. When Israeli mathematician Robert J. Aumann received the 2005 Nobel Prize in economic science, he conceded that "the entire school of thought that we have developed here in Israel" has turned "Israel into the leading authority in this field."

With a well-planned provocation, the anticipated response can even become a weapon in the arsenal of the agent provocateur. In response to 9-11, how difficult would it be to foresee that the U.S. would deploy its military to avenge that attack? With fixed intelligence, how difficult would it be to redirect that response to wage a long-planned war in Iraq - not for U.S. interests but to advance the agenda for Greater Israel?

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article23488.htm

The article continues with lots and lots of words but the author never answers his own question.

[Liszt]

The askehnazi jews (I'm assuming those are the ones you are referring to) are of middle eastern descent too.

I seem to remember that you believe in The Golden Plates (read from a hat), and the idea that Jesus went to America.

[Liszt]

Disregard that last post. I suck cut phalluses.

Becasue I just found a photo, taken in 1893, of Jobus Smith getting his plates from none other than Moroni, the made up angel (I didn't make up the name though. Moroni. Ha Ha.)

Proof

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Joseph_Smith_receiving_golden_plates.jpg

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I also believe that Debbie Gibson was/is superior to Tiffany. But I don't see what that has to do with the heridity of jewish subgroups.

[Liszt]

I also believe that Debbie Gibson was/is superior to Tiffany. But I don't see what that has to do with the heridity of jewish subgroups.

Pyschosis. That is the connection.

White people don't come from the middle east. Not my opinion (well, it is, obviously), but that of Shlomo Sand, Tel Aviv prof. of European history.

You are correct about Debbie Gibson though. Tiffany really is alone now.

[Doctor Evil]

Pyschosis. That is the connection.

White people don't come from the middle east. Not my opinion (well, it is, obviously), but that of Shlomo Sand, Tel Aviv prof. of European history.

You are correct about Debbie Gibson though. Tiffany really is alone now.

Sigh. Shlomo Sand is promoting an anti historical theory because of his political opinions. As it happens, there are more than enough reasons to believe that his theory is wrong. One which is relevant here has to do with the use of genetics to find out the ancestry of European Jews. The research so far finds that the closest group to European Jews is Non-European Jews. Other close groups are Palestinians and Kurds. That does not exclude some mixing of populations, but not as the dominant effect.

If you are curious, you can look at these other threads where this was discussed:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=127732
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=137057
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=3869276


By the way, Sand's expertise is French History, which is not exactly the relevant field. So we should not be surprised that researchers in the field found his work less than convincing (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/999386.html):
Zionist historiography, he claims, concealed the possibility that the millions of Yiddish-speaking Jews were actually descendants of the Khazars and that even today Israeli historians deny the existence of an early Jewish nucleus that was augmented by immigrants who moved from Ashkenaz (present-day northern France and western Germany) to Eastern Europe.

These claims are baseless. Sand, for example, does not mention the fact that, from 2000 onwards, a team of scholars from the Hebrew University of Jerusalem labored on a monumental task: the production of a three-volume study on the history of the Jews of Russia.

In the first volume, which will shortly be published in Hebrew by the Zalman Shazar Center for Jewish History (another "Zionist" institution), considerable attention is devoted to the question of the origin of the East European Jews and to their link with the history of the Khazar kingdom. Also here (http://www.isracampus.org.il/Extra%20Files/Anita%20Shapira%20-%20Shlomo%20Sand%20book%20review.pdf). (PDF file)

Oh, and by the way, did you just claimed that Sword_Of_Truth suffers from psychosis because he agrees with the accepted academic theory and rejected an alternative baseless theory? My Irony meter just broke.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

White people don't come from the middle east.

According to just about every scientific theory in existance, ALL people come from Africa. That's where modern homo sapiens first appeared and then spread throught the world. With some populations becoming paler as they exposure to sunlight declining the farther north they went.

EDIT: I'm Changing my name to Kwiesi Mombasa in defiance of "The Mans'" effort to keep my african bruthas down. ;)

[Thunder]

Pyschosis. That is the connection.

White people don't come from the middle east. .

well..thats not completely true.

at birth, many folks in Greece, Italy, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Palestine, and Algiers, do indeed have white skin.

it is very possible that Judeans, like many other Meditteranean peoples, had a large number of folks born with white skin, and after 1,700 years in Europe, they simply have not had enough sun to develop tans.

there is indeed good evidence of much conversion, intermarriage, and a Khazar influx, within the Eastern European Jewish people. but the genetics are very clear: Ashkenazi Jews, have a majority Near-Eastern genetics. And most interesting, the population that Ashkenazi Jews are most like in the entire world, are not the Arabs...but the Kurds.

:)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1202742130771&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[Liszt]

Oh, and by the way, did you just claimed that Sword_Of_Truth suffers from psychosis because he agrees with the accepted academic theory and rejected an alternative baseless theory? My Irony meter just broke.

good info, but the "psychosis" thing was more of a running poke at SoT, who seems to take it all in his stride. And please don't type "sigh", it looks so contrived.

[Liszt]

According to just about every scientific theory in existance, ALL people come from Africa. That's where modern homo sapiens first appeared and then spread throught the world. With some populations becoming paler as they exposure to sunlight declining the farther north they went.

EDIT: I'm Changing my name to Kwiesi Mombasa in defiance of "The Mans'" effort to keep my african bruthas down. ;)

Yes, Africa. Or India, according so some Indian friends. I know someone who actually thinks we came from a volcano, too. However, there is no God, hence no God's chosen people or promised land. Imagine if the Roman Catholics in south American decided that they were all going to Rome to kick out the locals, build a wall around the area and then stockpile 400 nukes. Then drop chemical weapons on the local children. People would be upset.

[Liszt]

well..thats not completely true.

at birth, many folks in Greece, Italy, Turkey, Lebanon, Syria, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Egypt, Palestine, and Algiers, do indeed have white skin.

it is very possible that Judeans, like many other Meditteranean peoples, had a large number of folks born with white skin, and after 1,700 years in Europe, they simply have not had enough sun to develop tans.

there is indeed good evidence of much conversion, intermarriage, and a Khazar influx, within the Eastern European Jewish people. but the genetics are very clear: Ashkenazi Jews, have a majority Near-Eastern genetics. And most interesting, the population that Ashkenazi Jews are most like in the entire world, are not the Arabs...but the Kurds.

:)

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1202742130771&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Also good points (as usual, Parky). And the subject is obviously more complicated than most people (including me) think.

[Doctor Evil]

good info, but the "psychosis" thing was more of a running poke at SoT, who seems to take it all in his stride. And please don't type "sigh", it looks so contrived.

That is fair enough.

As for the sigh, its just my way of saying, please do not make me look for the same references again. This subject has come up here several times recently.

[JohnG]

Yes, Africa. Or India, according so some Indian friends. I know someone who actually thinks we came from a volcano, too. However, there is no God, hence no God's chosen people or promised land. Imagine if the Roman Catholics in south American decided that they were all going to Rome to kick out the locals, build a wall around the area and then stockpile 400 nukes. Then drop chemical weapons on the local children. People would be upset.


I believe the prevailing theory is that the human race originated in Africa, but groups of people left Africa and settled in India. Later, some of these proto Indians moved out into the rest of the world. Therefore, any Europeans, Asians, Native Americans, etc. (i.e., all racial groups other than Africans) can trace their ancestry back to India.

In other words, your Indian friends are partly right (for a large portion of the world's population, at any rate), but ultimately we are all Africans.