Unburned passports at ground zero

[Eddie Dane]

I understand passports and other documents were recovered from the rubble.

Truthers often trod out the claim that anything on the plane should have burned on impact.

I was wondering about this, but couldn't immediately find the resource for debunking it.

Can anyone point me to it?

[Bad_Doggie]

I understand passports and other documents were recovered from the rubble.

Truthers often trod out the claim that anything on the plane should have burned on impact.

I was wondering about this, but couldn't immediately find the resource for debunking it.

Can anyone point me to it?

Try this

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/15/iran.plane.crash/

In their world this can't happen.

Woof!

[TruthersLie]

It is complete and utter bunk.

wtc7lies has some great images of these "unburned passports." Scroll down to find the personal affects
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/aircraftpartsnyc911

911myths
http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

And if you look up psa 1771 you will see a similar crash to flight 93 which had tons of debris including the person who hijacked the jets suicide note.
QrT6joi4gco

[nicepants]

I guess truthers must believe that the shuttle columbia crash was an inside job too, because there were plenty of pieces of paper which survived that, including a journal belonging to one of the astronauts.

[BigAl]

Try this

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/07/15/iran.plane.crash/

In their world this can't happen.

Woof!

And somewhere on JREF there is a page that shows all the other debris from 11 and 175 and where it landed. It's not like the passport was the only item found. If somebody claims the passport was snuck in there, they have to explain how big pieces of aircraft were, too.

[AJM8125]

Classic truther logic. It's impossible to recover evidence from a crash site but it is possible to wire up 3 high rise buildings with explosives with nobody being the wiser. :)

[MervinFerd]

If somebody claims the passport was snuck in there, they have to explain how big pieces of aircraft were, too.

You would also need to explain why-on-earth the wily conspirators would bother to plant fake passports among piles of debris, when the hijackers' identities were amply demonstrated already.

[TexasJack]

Ask them how these tiny worms survived the shuttle crash.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2003/may7/worm.html

[Mangoose]

The passport belonged to a (hijacker) passenger of AA11 which approached from the north and crashed into the north face of WTC1. The passport was found before the collapses on Vesey street, which ran north of WTC1 (see here (http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/deceptions/docs/fig_1_4.jpg)). That is the same side of the building where AA11 made its initial impact, as seen in the Naudet video. This means that the passport did not travel through the building and was not ejected with the fireball. It was among the debris that became airborne when the aircraft struck the exterior columns of building (if the passport was on the body of the hijacker, it may have even been in the cockpit, the first part of the plane to make contact with WTC1). The street was littered with debris from the impact.

[Brainster]

I understand passports and other documents were recovered from the rubble.

Actually it was one passport (Satam al-Suqtami's, although most Troofers get this wrong and say it was Mohamed Atta's) and it was recovered a few blocks from the WTC before the towers collapsed.

[waypastvne]

When discussing the "miracle" passport, what most people fail to take into account is the air in the aircraft's cabin. A Boeing 767 contains 19,500 cubic feet of air. Air has weight: at sea level it weighs approx. .075 pounds per cubic foot. This means that the air in the cabin weighed a little under 1, 500 pounds or three quarters of a ton. The air was traveling at 800 feet per second. It didn't simply stop, bounce off or evaporate when the plane struck the building. It rammed its way through the core, the elevator shafts and out the windows on the other side. Like a wind ten times the force of a hurricane, the cylinder of air carried with it light debris from the cabin such as magazines, life vests, headrest covers, and at least one passport that we know of.

I have a video post on YouTube that goes into more detail. My username is waypastvne if you want to look at it. The video is titled "Miracle Passport". Sorry I don't have enough time on the forum yet to post a link.

[beachnut]

When discussing the "miracle" passport, what most people fail to take into account is the air in the aircraft's cabin. A Boeing 767 contains 19,500 cubic feet of air. Air has weight: at sea level it weighs approx. .075 pounds per cubic foot. This means that the air in the cabin weighed a little under 1, 500 pounds or three quarters of a ton. The air was traveling at 800 feet per second. It didn't simply stop, bounce off or evaporate when the plane struck the building. It rammed its way through the core, the elevator shafts and out the windows on the other side. Like a wind ten times the force of a hurricane, the cylinder of air carried with it light debris from the cabin such as magazines, life vests, headrest covers, and at least one passport that we know of.

I have a video post on YouTube that goes into more detail. My username is waypastvne if you want to look at it. The video is titled "Miracle Passport". Sorry I don't have enough time on the forum yet to post a link. Gg_QcBiGi-k
The surviving passport is consistent with reality. In aircraft accidents some object survive the impact and fires. I have worked aircraft accidents and some objects are ejected in a crash in good condition. I never had to think about why, or prove it can happen, since I have observed firsthand objects surviving impacts. And paper objects, low mass objects, would have the best chance in a high speed accident.

[Lupie]

Many years ago I assisted in the recovery of wreckage from a Stearman Biplane that crashed in a fairly remote area. The pilot died on impact, and the resulting fire from nearly full fuel tanks really did a number on almost everything. So I was quite surprised when I came across a nearly new, unburned 20 dollar bill, and a bunch of paperwork that had been in a pouch in the cockpit. Some items were really heavily burned, others only slightly, and some not at all. The 20 came from the pilots wallet which, for comfort, he kept in the breast pocket of his jacket. Paperwork/passports and such can easily survive even a violent crash and intense fire.

L.

[willhaven]

I always like to show them the landing gear in the street. It wasn't on fire either. It simply flew through the building and landed on the street, just like that passport did.

It is pretty wild that the passport was found, but it's not impossible by any means.

[Retrograde]

When I watched "102 Minutes" this past Friday (a collection of videos shot by various people in Manhattan from just after the first crash to the collapse of the north tower) what struck me was how much paper was flying around the streets. There was a lot of paper in those two office buildings, and some of it, probably a small fraction, survived. But a small fraction of 2 big buildings' worth is still a lot.

The Twoofer claims about the passport illustrate 2 of their tendancies: flat outright making things up (i.e., it wasn't Atta's) and leaving out parts of the story to make it seem spookier (i.e., a guy handed a passport to a police detective and left before being identified -ooooooo! They leave out the next line, about the debris falling from the tower: who'd stick around to talk when flaming debris is falling all around you?)

[Eddie Dane]

Thanks for all the feedback.

It is a freak occurrence.
But such a big and unusual event will cause quite a few freak occurrences, I suppose.

[twinstead]

I'm just curious as to how the "no planers" we have on the forum can read a thread like this and still insist that no planes hit the WTC. That's a lot of stuff to plant.

[A W Smith]

Thanks for all the feedback.

It is a freak occurrence.
But such a big and unusual event will cause quite a few freak occurrences, I suppose.


it is not really a freak occurrence. it is to be expected.
http://911stories.googlepages.com/insidethesouthtower:eyewitnessaccounts
Later that evening, there was a wind blowing from the direction of Manhattan. Looking out the living room window, I saw a sheet of 81⁄2 by 11 sheet of paper blowing around in the parking lot. Remembering the paper flying through the air right after the North Tower was hit, I couldn’t resist the urge to find out if one of those sheets of paper was in our parking lot. I went outside. I picked it up. Sure enough, it was a sheet of letterhead from a company that had been in the World Trade Center. I held it in my fingers. I smelled smoke and kerosene in its fiber. I read the address. This had been on someone’s desk or in some photocopy room. In another life, this piece of paper represented business as usual.

[waypastvne]

It is not a freak occurrence. Here are 2 IDs from the Caspian Airlines crash in Iran. The plane left a hole in the ground just like the one in Shanksville, but still left a lot of undamaged personal items down range of the crash site.


15168

[jhunter1163]

Wasn't Cory Lidle's passport found after his accident?

[~enigma~]

I guess truthers must believe that the shuttle columbia crash was an inside job too, because there were plenty of pieces of paper which survived that, including a journal belonging to one of the astronauts.
Yes but where was the astronaut from?

[WildCat]

So I was quite surprised when I came across a nearly new, unburned 20 dollar bill, and a bunch of paperwork that had been in a pouch in the cockpit.
Cha-ching!

[ElMondoHummus]

Thanks for all the feedback.

It is a freak occurrence.
But such a big and unusual event will cause quite a few freak occurrences, I suppose.

Now, don't take this as a criticism; rather, it's my contribution to the thread. But I don't think if the unburnt passports even qualify as a "freak occurance". There have been other fires and plane crashes where items survive relatively unscathed. It's not something you can count on occuring every time, but at the same time it's not something that's unheard of either. Think of the famous "worm experiment" that survived the breakup of the space shuttle Columbia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2992123.stm); I'd consider that to be way more unlikely than a document surviving even a high speed jetliner crash like the 9/11 ones - I'd even go so far as to call that a freak occurance over the hijacker's passport surviving - yet it happened, and under conditions more extreme than what the Flight 11 or 175 contents would've experienced.

My opinion is that this complaint is less about finding the truth and more about the conspiracy fantasists' need to find anomalies they can use to inject doubt about the established history of the event. That allows them to conduct their normal and obviously preferred process of proselytisation rather than work towards actually resolving what the history of that day truly was. If their agitation was honestly about finding the truth, then they would've let the process of examination, analysis, debate, and information discovery inform them rather than present the stale old questions over and over again. And believe me, damn near every truther has heard of the answer to this question before; it doesn't stop them from using it to peddle their misinformation to people and venues previously uninformed on 9/11 conspiracy myths.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

Yes but where was the astronaut from?

It was the journal of astronaut Colonel Ilan Ramon, a veteran combat pilot of the Israeli Air Force. He flew on the famous raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor facility at Osirak.

Colonel Ramons diary is on display in a museum in Jerusalem (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1026223.html).

[~enigma~]

It was the journal of astronaut Colonel Ilan Ramon, a veteran combat pilot of the Israeli Air Force. He flew on the famous raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor facility at Osirak.

Colonel Ramons diary is on display in a museum in Jerusalem (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1026223.html).
Yes and you know exactly what the resident idiot representatives of the retarded TM are going to claim about an Israeli diary.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Many years ago I assisted in the recovery of wreckage from a Stearman Biplane that crashed in a fairly remote area. The pilot died on impact, and the resulting fire from nearly full fuel tanks really did a number on almost everything. So I was quite surprised when I came across a nearly new, unburned 20 dollar bill, and a bunch of paperwork that had been in a pouch in the cockpit. Some items were really heavily burned, others only slightly, and some not at all. The 20 came from the pilots wallet which, for comfort, he kept in the breast pocket of his jacket. Paperwork/passports and such can easily survive even a violent crash and intense fire.


[CT'ist]Then why didn't they just build the towers out of $20 bills?![/CT'ist]

[Lupie]

It was the journal of astronaut Colonel Ilan Ramon, a veteran combat pilot of the Israeli Air Force. He flew on the famous raid on the Iraqi nuclear reactor facility at Osirak.

Colonel Ramons diary is on display in a museum in Jerusalem (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1026223.html).

This is a bit off topic, but,

I just read that IAF Capt. Assaf Ramon, son of the late Col. Ilan Ramon, was killed when his F-16 crashed during a training flight yesterday. Very sad news.

L.

[A W Smith]

Now, don't take this as a criticism; rather, it's my contribution to the thread. But I don't think if the unburnt passports even qualify as a "freak occurance". There have been other fires and plane crashes where items survive relatively unscathed. It's not something you can count on occuring every time, but at the same time it's not something that's unheard of either. Think of the famous "worm experiment" that survived the breakup of the space shuttle Columbia (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2992123.stm); I'd consider that to be way more unlikely than a document surviving even a high speed jetliner crash like the 9/11 ones - I'd even go so far as to call that a freak occurance over the hijacker's passport surviving - yet it happened, and under conditions more extreme than what the Flight 11 or 175 contents would've experienced.

My opinion is that this complaint is less about finding the truth and more about the conspiracy fantasists' need to find anomalies they can use to inject doubt about the established history of the event. That allows them to conduct their normal and obviously preferred process of proselytisation rather than work towards actually resolving what the history of that day truly was. If their agitation was honestly about finding the truth, then they would've let the process of examination, analysis, debate, and information discovery inform them rather than present the stale old questions over and over again. And believe me, damn near every truther has heard of the answer to this question before; it doesn't stop them from using it to peddle their misinformation to people and venues previously uninformed on 9/11 conspiracy myths.

They also found an intact and playable personal video tape alongside a road in Texas. This tape not only survived the break up but a fiery re-entry.
http://www.redorbit.com/news/space/3604/nasa_recovers_columbia_cockpit_videotape/

[Lupie]

My opinion is that this complaint is less about finding the truth and more about the conspiracy fantasists' need to find anomalies they can use to inject doubt about the established history of the event. That allows them to conduct their normal and obviously preferred process of proselytisation rather than work towards actually resolving what the history of that day truly was. If their agitation was honestly about finding the truth, then they would've let the process of examination, analysis, debate, and information discovery inform them rather than present the stale old questions over and over again. And believe me, damn near every truther has heard of the answer to this question before; it doesn't stop them from using it to peddle their misinformation to people and venues previously uninformed on 9/11 conspiracy myths.

A very accurate analysis. I've always believed that for the "truthers", the hunt was everything, and the prize was only secondary. In many cases, that could be understandable, but in their case the hunt is a total fabrication, and the prize non-existent.

L.

[willhaven]

Well, once they invest so much time in believing the conspiracy, it's hard for them to give it up.

[triforcharity]

This is not suprising.

Two reasons.

I found and saw thousands of papers on the ground and still falling from the sky when I got to the towers that morning. It actually takes a substantial amount of heat to set a piece of paper on fire. You can take a piece of paper, and slide it through a flame all day, and it most likely not burn. But, keep that flame in the same spot, and it takes little time at all to catch on fire.

Secondly, I have seen a house completly burn to the ground, and have found file folders that were in a box in the closet almost in perfect condition.

[Dave Rogers]

Actually it was one passport (Satam al-Suqtami's, although most Troofers get this wrong and say it was Mohamed Atta's)

To be fair to truthers, some of the newspapers get this wrong too.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/mar/19/september11.iraq

Dave

[240-185]

I have better than a passport: http://reunion.orange.fr/IMG/jpg/photo_1246508872056-1-0.jpg

This girl in that bed is called "Bahia Bakari". She's the only survivor of a plane crash. She was a passenger of a flight between Yemen and Comorian Islands.

[waypastvne]

Another sole survivor:


Date of Crash: January 26, 1972
Aircraft type: McDonnell-Douglas DC-9
Operator: Jugoslovenski Aero transport
Cause of Crash: Bombing
Crash Site: Hinterhermsdorf , East Germany
Passengers & Crew :28
Fatalities: 27

Vesna Vulović was a flight attendant onboard when a bomb went off at the altitude of 33,000 ft. (10,050 meters). The terrorist act was attributed to Croatian Ustashe terrorists. The explosion tore the jet into several pieces in mid-air. The wreckage fell through the sky for three minutes before striking a frozen mountainside. A German man upon arriving at the crash found Vesna lying half outside of the plane, with another crew member’s body on top of her, and a serving cart pinned against her body. The man was a medic in the second world war, and did what he could for her until further help arrived. Vesna’s injuries included a fractured skull, two broken legs and three broken vertebrae, which left her temporarily paralyzed from the waist down. She regained the use of her legs after surgery and continued working for JAT at a desk job. It was discovered later her schedule had been mixed up with that of another flight attendant named Vesna, and she was subsequently placed on the wrong flight.

Vesna still holds the Guinness World Record for the highest fall survived without a parachute, at 33,330 feet. She is considered a national heroine throughout the former Yugoslavia.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

This is a bit off topic, but,

I just read that IAF Capt. Assaf Ramon, son of the late Col. Ilan Ramon, was killed when his F-16 crashed during a training flight yesterday. Very sad news.

L.

I am certain that most of us who post here have the deepest sympathies for the Ramon family and thier loss.

[msp67]

To be fair to truthers, some of the newspapers get this wrong too.


Look at the date please: March, 19, 2002

And now:
Monday, March 11, 2002: launching of book The Big Lie.
w w w.effroyable-imposture.net/revue-en.php

The french original:
w w w.scribd.com/doc/4673074/Thierry-Meyssan-Leffroyable-Imposture-NonOcr-11-Septembre-Attentat-Bidon-Pentagone-Imperialisme-Usa,
(p. 57)

Voila, Monsieur Hoax again.

I dont know any reference before this.
So I have an idea, where the desinfo came from again :rolleyes:....

[s_pepys]

Another sole survivor:


Date of Crash: January 26, 1972
Aircraft type: McDonnell-Douglas DC-9
Operator: Jugoslovenski Aero transport
Cause of Crash: Bombing
Crash Site: Hinterhermsdorf , East Germany
Passengers & Crew :28
Fatalities: 27

Vesna Vulović was a flight attendant onboard when a bomb went off at the altitude of 33,000 ft. (10,050 meters). The terrorist act was attributed to Croatian Ustashe terrorists. The explosion tore the jet into several pieces in mid-air. The wreckage fell through the sky for three minutes before striking a frozen mountainside. A German man upon arriving at the crash found Vesna lying half outside of the plane, with another crew member’s body on top of her, and a serving cart pinned against her body. The man was a medic in the second world war, and did what he could for her until further help arrived. Vesna’s injuries included a fractured skull, two broken legs and three broken vertebrae, which left her temporarily paralyzed from the waist down. She regained the use of her legs after surgery and continued working for JAT at a desk job. It was discovered later her schedule had been mixed up with that of another flight attendant named Vesna, and she was subsequently placed on the wrong flight.

Vesna still holds the Guinness World Record for the highest fall survived without a parachute, at 33,330 feet. She is considered a national heroine throughout the former Yugoslavia.


In January 2009 German ARD radio correspondent Peter Hornung-Andersen together with German journalist Tim van Beveren and Czech journalist Pavel Theiner published a report based on newly found documents, mainly from the Czech Civil Aviation Authority and the Czech Republic's National Archive, concluding that it was "extremely probable" that the plane had been shot down by mistake by the Czechoslovak Air Force.[6] They claim that the plane broke up only a few hundred meters above the ground, not the 10,000 metres claimed by the official investigation.[7] This claim was backed by evidence, e.g. secret reports in which several eye witnesses said that they saw Vesna's plane flying below the clouds before it crashed and maps drawn by Czechoslovak investigators showing that the largest parts of the plane were found in an area rather small which would not have been the case if the plane broke apart in 10,000 metres altitude. This is shown on a disaster area map which was published by Czech Republic's National Archive : No. 1 and 2 show fuselage and cabin being less than 1 kilometre apart. The Czech Civil Aviation Authority nevertheless issued a statement denying the claim without addressing the evidence.[citation needed] The original statement has given rise to more recent reports.[7] Vulović, despite having no memory of the crash or the flight after boarding,[6] has challenged these new theories, denying the claim that the plane descended to a much lower altitude while attempting a forced landing.[citation needed] A representative of Guinness World Records stated that "it seems that at the time Guinness was duped by this swindle just like the rest of the media."[6

from wikipedia.

lxxx

[NoahFence]

Classic truther logic. It's impossible to recover evidence from a crash site but it is possible to wire up 3 high rise buildings with explosives with nobody being the wiser. :)

.......two that were 3x the size of the world record and another almost 2x....

[Animal]

Another sole survivor:


Date of Crash: January 26, 1972
Aircraft type: McDonnell-Douglas DC-9
Operator: Jugoslovenski Aero transport
Cause of Crash: Bombing
Crash Site: Hinterhermsdorf , East Germany
Passengers & Crew :28
Fatalities: 27

Vesna Vulović was a flight attendant onboard when a bomb went off at the altitude of 33,000 ft. (10,050 meters). The terrorist act was attributed to Croatian Ustashe terrorists. The explosion tore the jet into several pieces in mid-air. The wreckage fell through the sky for three minutes before striking a frozen mountainside. A German man upon arriving at the crash found Vesna lying half outside of the plane, with another crew member’s body on top of her, and a serving cart pinned against her body. The man was a medic in the second world war, and did what he could for her until further help arrived. Vesna’s injuries included a fractured skull, two broken legs and three broken vertebrae, which left her temporarily paralyzed from the waist down. She regained the use of her legs after surgery and continued working for JAT at a desk job. It was discovered later her schedule had been mixed up with that of another flight attendant named Vesna, and she was subsequently placed on the wrong flight.

Vesna still holds the Guinness World Record for the highest fall survived without a parachute, at 33,330 feet. She is considered a national heroine throughout the former Yugoslavia.

Several sole survivor crashes
http://www.airsafe.com/events/survivor.htm

[MG1962]

I guess truthers must believe that the shuttle columbia crash was an inside job too, because there were plenty of pieces of paper which survived that, including a journal belonging to one of the astronauts.

As well two fully playable CDs from Deep Purple "Machine Head" and "Purpendicular" a third "Down To Earth" Although intact was damaged. All three are part of a commerative plaque at NASA, which is going to be donated to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame

Kalpana Chawla, was a mission specialist and unabashed Deep Purple, requesting the crew to be woken with the iconic "Space Truck'in" during her flight.

Steve Morse and the rest of the band where horrified to hear of her death and wrote the song "Contact Lost" as a memorial which is the last track on the "Bananna" album

[switchpoint]

I understand passports and other documents were recovered from the rubble.

Truthers often trod out the claim that anything on the plane should have burned on impact.

I was wondering about this, but couldn't immediately find the resource for debunking it.

Can anyone point me to it?

Just challenge the simplistic notion that everything on the plane should have been consumed by fire. Why? The planes crashed and exploded, they were not burnt in an inferno.

[Lenbrazil]

It is not a freak occurrence. Here are 2 IDs from the Caspian Airlines crash in Iran. The plane left a hole in the ground just like the one in Shanksville, but still left a lot of undamaged personal items down range of the crash site.


15168

PressTV is part of the evil ZOM (Zionist Occupied Media) and thus can't be trusted. I only believe stuff on Russia Today and Alex Jones

[Lenbrazil]

a third "Down To Earth" Although intact was damaged.

If it was damaged it wasn't intact and vice versa.

[MG1962]

If it was damaged it wasn't intact and vice versa.

They meant the CD was physically intact, but the information on it was no longer usable

[dropzone]

PressTV is part of the evil ZOM (Zionist Occupied Media) and thus can't be trusted. I only believe stuff on Russia Today and Alex JonesGod, I hope that's a whoosh. Al Jazzera in English is FAR more reliable than RT, though a local PBS station plays both. I appreciate how networks these days keep their logo in a corner so I can say, "That's RT? The 9/11 conspiracy network? I can ignore this, WHATEVER it's about. :eek:"