The Sheeple Look Up

[Horatius]

From reason.com's Hit & Run blog: (http://www.reason.com/blog/show/136058.html)

What Do Politicians, Used Car Salesmen, and Journalists All Have in Common?

The public hates them. Howard Kurtz summarizes in the Wash Post:

Public respect for the media has plunged to a new low, with just 29 percent of Americans saying that news organizations generally get their facts straight.


I wonder how the CTists who constantly claim that the vast majority of people in our society are "sheeple" or "zombies" who need to "wake up" and "stop believing everything they see in the MSM" will react to a study which shows that about 70% of Americans don't trust the media to get their facts straight.

[Praktik]

Indeed. I've trotted that out before to little reaction. Seems they can't process it.

The Truth Movement will die for partly the same reason the hippies did. The hippies had their "hip vs square" analysis that attracted enough people wanting to be hip much like the TM attracted people that wanted to be "in on it" and see "behind the veil".

But when you treat 80% of the population like a bunch of useful idiots perpetuating EVIL through their sheeple-ness, you essentially cut yourself off from the only thing that has really changed anything: galvanizing mass society.

People don't usually like being condescended to.

So, like the self-isolating hippies, the TM will also self-isolate themselves and bleed members until there's only remnants left.

[ihaunter]

From reason.com's Hit & Run blog: (http://www.reason.com/blog/show/136058.html)




I wonder how the CTists who constantly claim that the vast majority of people in our society are "sheeple" or "zombies" who need to "wake up" and "stop believing everything they see in the MSM" will react to a study which shows that about 70% of Americans don't trust the media to get their facts straight.

They will probably completely miss that conclusion and just use this as proof that people shouldn't trust the media. That or they will use it to show that they are winning. Both of which require a complete misinterpretation of what is actually said, and so, are the most likely.

[Tippit]

I wonder how the CTists who constantly claim that the vast majority of people in our society are "sheeple" or "zombies" who need to "wake up" and "stop believing everything they see in the MSM" will react to a study which shows that about 70% of Americans don't trust the media to get their facts straight.

You're avoiding the dilemma of whether 70% of Americans are stupid enough to distrust the media, or whether the media is full of lies. Unless this is a false dilemma, it would seem to be a serious problem in either case. In your case as a 9/11 "debunker", the latter must not be true, because that would introduce doubt as to the veracity of your "evidence". Best to believe that most people are stupid. It seems to be popular too.

[Sporanox]

You're avoiding the dilemma of whether 70% of Americans are stupid enough to distrust the media, or whether the media is full of lies. Unless this is a false dilemma, it would seem to be a serious problem in either case. In your case as a 9/11 "debunker", the latter must not be true, because that would introduce doubt as to the veracity of your "evidence". Best to believe that most people are stupid. It seems to be popular too.

False choice. Nobody intimated that the media always lies, nor that media bias always shows up in the form of lying.

[Horatius]

You're avoiding the dilemma of whether 70% of Americans are stupid enough to distrust the media, or whether the media is full of lies. Unless this is a false dilemma, it would seem to be a serious problem in either case. In your case as a 9/11 "debunker", the latter must not be true, because that would introduce doubt as to the veracity of your "evidence". Best to believe that most people are stupid. It seems to be popular too.


"Unless this is a false dilemma", nice self-debunking.

Not trusting the media to get all their facts straight is not necessarily the same as believing they are "full of lies". The lack of trust could manifest itself as making an effort to check the facts, to confirm or refute their accuracy; it would likely go either way on occasion. Which of course simply reinforces my point, "Sheeple" would have simply accepted the alleged facts without question, which real people (mostly) don't do. Even if their initial doubt as to the accuracy of any given fact is ultimately proven erroneous, they have still shown that the CT "sheeple" concept is inherently flawed.

But then, you knew that already, hence the suggestion of "false dilemma".

[brodski]

Sheeple can't look up! Or is that dogs?

[Horatius]

Sheeple can't look up! Or is that dogs?



I *********** knew it!

[NoZed Avenger]

I *********** knew it!

I was told it by the media, and see no reason to doubt it. Ever.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

You're avoiding the dilemma of whether 70% of Americans are stupid enough to distrust the media, or whether the media is full of lies. Unless this is a false dilemma, it would seem to be a serious problem in either case.


Good news. It is a false dilemma. Honestly, I'm a bit shocked you would even propose it. For someone who seems relatively intelligent, it's extremely disappointing to see you fail to consider one of the common complaints about the media today: they're more concerned with breaking the news first than getting the facts right.

I pointed out an example of this a year-and-a-half ago, although for slightly different reasons: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=108147

[jhunter1163]

It must be sheeple that can't look up. My desktop background is a picture of my dog, and she is most undeniably looking up.

[Tippit]

Not trusting the media to get all their facts straight is not necessarily the same as believing they are "full of lies". The lack of trust could manifest itself as making an effort to check the facts, to confirm or refute their accuracy; it would likely go either way on occasion. Which of course simply reinforces my point, "Sheeple" would have simply accepted the alleged facts without question, which real people (mostly) don't do. Even if their initial doubt as to the accuracy of any given fact is ultimately proven erroneous, they have still shown that the CT "sheeple" concept is inherently flawed.

But then, you knew that already, hence the suggestion of "false dilemma".

So you admit to using a false dilemma in a citation, for the purposes of attempting to demonstrate that people aren't really that stupid after all. Excellent! I happen to agree, it is a false dilemma. What I don't agree with, is your attempt to spin this apparent crisis of confidence in the media as the result of mere incompetence, as opposed to outright lies. But I guess this would be the point where you quote Hanlon's Razor to me and explain how people are beneficent yet often incompetent creatures.

This is of course the reason why I always lock my car doors, because I don't want any incompetent drivers accidentally stealing my car.

[Tippit]

Good news. It is a false dilemma. Honestly, I'm a bit shocked you would even propose it. For someone who seems relatively intelligent, it's extremely disappointing to see you fail to consider one of the common complaints about the media today: they're more concerned with breaking the news first than getting the facts right.



I didn't propose it, Horatius did when he made the citation. Implicit in the claim that the public are not sheeple because 70% of them are critical of the media, is the idea that people who are critical of the media must be intelligent, and that the media is often wrong. Neither are people necessarily critical enough of media just because they may distrust it, nor is the media's being incorrect always the result of just incompetence.

[Horatius]

So you admit to using a false dilemma in a citation, for the purposes of attempting to demonstrate that people aren't really that stupid after all. Excellent! I happen to agree, it is a false dilemma. What I don't agree with, is your attempt to spin this apparent crisis of confidence in the media as the result of mere incompetence, as opposed to outright lies. But I guess this would be the point where you quote Hanlon's Razor to me and explain how people are beneficent yet often incompetent creatures.

This is of course the reason why I always lock my car doors, because I don't want any incompetent drivers accidentally stealing my car.


Uh-huh. Except, I wasn't the one who framed it as a false dilemma, I merely reported a study that put the lie to a common Truther belief. You're the one who chose to cast it as some sort of iron-clad either/or extreme.

But hey, we all know you have no difficulty accepting counter-factual beliefs into your worldview, so by all means, please continue trying to convince others that I'm the one who posted your false dilemma.



I didn't propose it, Horatius did when he made the citation. Implicit in the claim that the public are not sheeple because 70% of them are critical of the media, is the idea that people who are critical of the media must be intelligent, and that the media is often wrong.



Uh-huh. Except, neither of those are actually implicit in my argument. Being critical of the media is not implicitly a sign of intelligence, as amply demonstrated by the large numbers of Truthers who choose to disbelieve everything the media say. Nor is the implication that "The media is often wrong" necessary to support my argument that the Truther "sheeple" claims are incorrect. Media could be 99% accurate in every case, and it would still be a good thing to check them on occasion, to see if any particular case were one of the 1%. "Sheeple" would never do this according to Truthers, but as seen by the above study, actual real people do this quite a lot.

But again, enjoy your counter-factual beliefs; you have so many of them, they must give you great comfort.

[Björn Toulouse]

.....The Truth Movement will die for partly the same reason the hippies did.....


Hey - we still got Wavy Gravy (http://www.wavygravy.net/). Maybe Alex will be so venerated by the remnant when he achieves geezerhood.

[Nosi]

From reason.com's Hit & Run blog: (http://www.reason.com/blog/show/136058.html)

I wonder how the CTists who constantly claim that the vast majority of people in our society are "sheeple" or "zombies" who need to "wake up" and "stop believing everything they see in the MSM" will react to a study which shows that about 70% of Americans don't trust the media to get their facts straight.

YOU just farted in the CT Church! You bad bad boy! Or girl...

:dl:

[Brian-M]

Wait... so a news organization reports the fact that only 29% of people trust news organizations to get their facts straight... and you trust that news organization to get its facts straight about how many people trust news organizations to get their facts straight?

:p

[NoZed Avenger]

Wait... so a news organization reports the fact that only 29% of people trust news organizations to get their facts straight... and you trust that news organization to get its facts straight about how many people trust news organizations to get their facts straight?


It's turtles newspapers, all the way down.

[Horatius]

Wait... so a news organization reports the fact that only 29% of people trust news organizations to get their facts straight... and you trust that news organization to get its facts straight about how many people trust news organizations to get their facts straight?

:p



Well, it works either way!

[Par]

Sheeple can't look up! Or is that dogs?


Big Al says.

[fuelair]

The Sheeple Look Up



Yay, John Brunner!!!(adapted)

[Especially]

I once heard a wise man from Kentucky say that televisions should be answered with a double barrelled shotgun.

He was right !

[mythstifieD]

From reason.com's Hit & Run blog: (http://www.reason.com/blog/show/136058.html)




I wonder how the CTists who constantly claim that the vast majority of people in our society are "sheeple" or "zombies" who need to "wake up" and "stop believing everything they see in the MSM" will react to a study which shows that about 70% of Americans don't trust the media to get their facts straight.

Wait a sec... wasn't this written by the Media??!?!

COINTELPRO!!!

[mythstifieD]

Alex Jones #1 source is the media, so this makes a lot of sense that they don't get their facts straight...

Small Fact + Speculation + Paranoid Spin = Alex Jones

I will always find it ironic that he tells us that the Media is bought and paid for, yet uses it as his primary fuel for information so that he appears legitimate.

[Nosi]

It don't help matters that very often media sources disagree... BBC, Daily Mail, National Inquirer, Fox News, CBS, on, and on, and on.:bwall

[Bob from NJ]

Y'know, conspiracy people brand the masses as "sheeple" because that's the sorta people they see on TV all the time...

[Dave Rogers]

Y'know, conspiracy people brand the masses as "sheeple" because that's the sorta people they see on TV all the time...

It's so easy to mistake the mirror for a TV.

Dave

[Bob from NJ]

Yes, they believe what they see on TV, while thinking they don't trust the media....