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View Full Version : My argument with he educated Mormon. The ringing saga continues.


Cainkane1
14th September 2009, 01:20 PM
example ...

Him

Below Cain and Doc have expressed their understanding and belief that religious people and people who pray to God are somehow inferior and at a disadvantage to so called “informed” atheists. What a crock of horse manure.

Me

I don't feel that way. Just because I have no faith in a theology doesn't mean I feel superior to a person who does.

Him

This post of necessity cannot be exhaustive, but it will serve to portray facts, which clearly lay bare the error of Cain’s and Doc’s false, self-aggrandizing, fallacious straw man reasoning in their unsupported convictions.

Me

If it were possible to do this someone else would have done it long before now. Give me some evidence that would change my mind and my mind will change. I doubt if our reasoning is any more flawed than a theistic line of reasoning.

Him

By way of example, and only by way of example, Mormons are religious people. They believe in and pray to their God. They were driven out of their lands in the 1800’s for no other reason than their religious beliefs and the emergent properties arising out of those beliefs; a dynamic increasing spontaneous economy and government that superseded in capacity and efficiency the then American government and economy. After being driven out their lands for this sin of prosperity and increase they settled in the most undesirable of unsettled territories. In these wastelands, under the most severe cruel conditions and without the help of their government, they alone with their prayers and their God brought forth their abundance.

Me

My heart goes out to anyone persecuted for their beliefs. America was supposed to have freedom of religion and this basic freedom was obviously denied the LDS peoples. This is a stain on American history.

Me

Ok that happened to you then but much of what happened to the mormons in the 19th century is happening to atheists as I speak now in the 21st century. There have been cases of children forced out of schools because their parents were atheists. Atheists get fired because of their non theism and people have been kicked out of their homes and apartments for being non theistic. You caught hell then and we're catching it now. I completely understand what the Mormons went through. I'm going through it now.

Him

That tradition and faith exists today in Utah. Utah’s economy suffered the least of all economies in the US during this recession. Employment is at 4%. Foreclosures are at the lowest. Property values lost in some areas but rose significantly in others. What’s more, Utahans not only took care of themselves with their prayers and faith and their God, but they also proves to be the most charitable people in the nation at the same time, when other states were looking for hand outs.

Me

Well as many of my posts have revealed I admire the Mormon people and their industrious ways. Mormons are educated and hard working and very honest decent people.



Me
Atheists are also generous and have a tendency to commit less crime and be hard working and employed. With no God to forgive us for doing wrong we tend not to get into trouble. Theists say we have no reason to have morals but we do and statistics prove it. There are very few atheists in prison.

Him

posted this earlier. I’ll post it again for your edification since you believe people of faith are helpless and unable to provide and care for themselves.

Me

I don't know who said that because it sure wasn't me.

Him

“Mormons give far more of their income to charity than any other Americans. Mormons reported providing $2.9 billion to charity in, or 5 percent of their adjusted gross income. Nationally, Americans gave an average of 2.3 percent of their income that year — or less than half of what Mormons provided. The average amount they gave to charity was $7,495 (compared to a national average of $4,399).

Me

The Freedom From Religion Founndation encouraged their members to give to charity. They set up food distribution for the homeless and money was given to underpriviledged children. I personally give a sum of money to abused children. This is a charity sponsored by the state. I will not specify the amount but I will say its in line with my salary. I didn't have to donate anything at all.

Him

This was just for your information. The information was compiled from IRS records of a sampling of 1,000,000 Americans compared to Mormons living in Utah”.

Me


I knew this already. I never said Mormons were anything but good citizens.

Him

Mormons not only prayed to God and exercised faith to care for themselves, but they also cared more for others who could not provide for themselves, more so than any other group of people on the earth. The average Mormon not only got out there and earned $55,000.00 but he managed, of his own volition without tax compulsion, to give about $7K to charities. How much did your rebelling against God make for you last year and how much of that rebellion money did you give to help your fellowman in his scarcity?

Me

Well there are many wealthy atheists. We tend to be as good (or bad) as anyone else. Like I said statistics prove we are less likely to commit crimes against our fellow man. How atheism overall compares in generosity to our fellow man is unknown to me. Atheists by their very nature are not joiners. Organizations that cater to atheists are very small as a consequence.

Cainkane1
14th September 2009, 01:21 PM
Doc Strange





Sep 14th, 2009 - 8:26 AM QuoteReply Talk about Strawmen...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleuth
This post of necessity cannot be exhaustive, but it will serve to portray facts, which clearly lay bare the error of Cain’s and Doc’s false, self-aggrandizing, fallacious straw man reasoning in their unsupported convictions.


Yeah, let's discuss Strawman Arguments.

For those of you who don't know what a "Strawman Argument" is, from Answers.com:

To argue against a straw man is to interpret someone's position in an unfairly weak way, and so argue against a position that nobody holds, or is likely to hold.

Sleuth says that I made the claim that religious people are "inferior". Sleuth, care to back up that claim with evidence?

While I do believe that ANYONE (not just religious people) who base their beliefs without any evidence to back it up are misinformed, and in some cases, self-deluded, I have never said they were "inferior".

Religious people aren't inferior. They are essentially bad investigators. They make the claim that they possess a book that was written by the supernatural creator of the universe. Why do they believe this? Because it says so in the book.

Since I never said that religious people are inferior, Sleuth saying I did and dismantling an argument I never made (that Mormons give more to charity than any other Americans) is a strawman argument.

I'll say it again so it sinks in. Religious people aren't inferior. They simply believe in things without evidence that have no basis in reality. This isn't really a shocking development. In the US, about 75% of the population believe in the Jewish zombie and the talking snake in the Bible.

And around the world, a great majority believe in other stories that are just as far-fetched. Some scientists claim that it may be instinctive for humans to want to get inebriated, looking at our species history with alcohol and other such drugs.

I would argue that our species also has an instinctive need for self-delusion.

And essentially, we are both Atheists. I just believe in one less imaginary god than you. You don't believe in the Hindu gods for the same reason I don't believe in the Jewish zombie.

A complete and utter lack of evidence.

"Tell a devout Christian that frozen yogurt can make a man invisible, and he is likely to require as much evidence as anyone else, and to be persuaded only to the extent that you give it. Tell him that the book he keeps by his bed was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its every incredible claim about the universe, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever." -- Sam Harris

Gord_in_Toronto
14th September 2009, 04:59 PM
The human species does not have "an instinctive need for self-delusion". It has a built in need to understand. Understanding helps the human species survive and is selected for by natural selection. In trying to understand we have a tendency to make things up. Religion is one of these things.

Religion may have some good influences but it also causes problems. To quote Voltaire, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

IMHO. YMMV. And etc.