Head of U.S. Team Searching for Iraq Arms May Leave

[Upchurch]

Head of U.S. Team Searching for Iraq Arms May Leave (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=584&e=5&u=/nm/20031218/pl_nm/iraq_usa_wmd_dc)
Though Kay cited family obligations, officials described the former U.N. nuclear weapons inspector as frustrated -- no banned weapons have been found despite months of searching and some of Kay's staff have been diverted to helping combat Iraqi insurgents.

Kay and his team were sent to Iraq to locate the weapons that were cited by President Bush and his top advisers as the main justification for invading.It kind of feels like looking for God, doesn't it? In either situation, I can hear someone saying, "Prove to me that there is no God/WMD!"

Edited to add:
My appoloigies if this topic has already been started in another thread. I have a bad track record starting original threads in PCE&H

[Furious]

I'm actualy quite baffled at the lack of WMD.

As I rememer it, the main quibbles before the war was not whether there was WMD, but the amount of them and the timing and process of disarming them and whether or not a regime change was necessary to bring that about. Not too many people/countries actually thought there were virtually none.

My current theories are that either intelligence was really bad (or possibly the interpretation of it), which several administrations and other countries are guilty of believing or that Hussein was playing a very dangerous and ultimately a losing poker game trying to save face as a defiant symbol against the West in the wake of getting kicked around in Gulf War I.

I don't really have evidence for either of those theories though.

[patnray]

The intelligence was really bad. What we thought was there wasn't. I have read several reports from Army officers in Iraq who are astounded at the huge stockpiles of conventional arms which have been found. So we didn't have a clue about what was there, either.

Furthermore, Hans Blix complained, before the war, about the poor quality of intellegence supplied to the UN by the US. He said that the inspectors wasted several weeks following leads that turned out to be useless.

The poor quality of intelligence is, I think, a serious problem. It surprises me that the Demos aren't making a bigger issue of it.

It seems clear that the first Gulf War, and subsequent sanctions, caused far more damage to Iraq's weapons programs than we realized. That bombing campaign was longer and directed at a larger array of targets than the one at the start of this war. Any government would naturally try to hide the true extent of damage when attacked, and Iraq appears to have been quite successful at it...

[Furious]

Furthermore, Hans Blix complained, before the war, about the poor quality of intellegence supplied to the UN by the US. He said that the inspectors wasted several weeks following leads that turned out to be useless.

Can you provide a link to this? I believe you, but I'd like to further edumucate myself.


More Hans Blix (http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_820150.html)

This interview is after the war, so I think it may be a bit of sour grapes on his part, but Hans Blix thinks the weapons were destroyed, but that Iraq tried to hide that fact to avoid invasion.

So maybe its both of my theories. :p

[dsm]

And, so, when the search quietly dies out, the post-war shift by the Bush Administration from WMDs to "humanitarian causes" as justification for the war will be complete... :(

:con2:

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

The lack of evidence of WMDs is a cause for concern, and Dubya (http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32427) Bush's response's to Diane Sawyer's questions were disturbing...

he believes he is right
he believes his reason for invading Iraq was right
he believes the intelligence was enough to act on

Faith

the unmovable faith,

he says there is "No doubt..."

Christian Fundamentalist Certainty, oblivious to facts







PRESIDENT BUSH: The intelligence I operated one was good sound intelligence, the same intelligence that my predecessor operated on. The — there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein was a threat....


DIANE SAWYER: But let me try to ask — this could be a long question. ... ... When you take a look back, Vice President Cheney said there is no doubt, Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction, not programs, not intent. There is no doubt he has weapons of mass destruction. Secretary Powell said 100 to 500 tons of chemical weapons and now the inspectors say that there's no evidence of these weapons existing right now. The yellow cake in Niger, in Niger. George Tenet has said that shouldn't have been in your speech. Secretary Powell talked about mobile labs. Again, the intelligence — the inspectors have said they can't confirm this, they can't corroborate.

PRESIDENT BUSH: Yet.

DIANE SAWYER: — an active —

PRESIDENT BUSH: Yet.

...


DIANE SAWYER: But stated as a hard fact, that there were weapons of mass destruction as opposed to the possibility that he could move to acquire those weapons still —

PRESIDENT BUSH: So what's the difference?



http://abcnews.go.com/sections/primetime/US/bush_sawyer_excerpts_1_031216.html

remember "No doubt" , according to Bush, and I don't think he is refering to the OC garage band.

[Crossbow]

I cannot blame that guy for quitting, after all there has got to be a better job than panning for gold in swimming pools.

The White House admitted months ago that they never had any actual evidence to support their position that Iraq currently had WMDs. Then they went on to admit that since Iraq had WMDs in the past (such as the chemical weapons they used on the Kurds and the Iranians), and that Iraq tried to further develop their stocks of WMDs, the White House simply assumed that once Iraq was occupied, then WMDs would be found.

Go figure!

[The Don]

According to Tony Blair there's "massive evidence of a huge system of secret laboratories in Iraq. "

[sound of politician backpedaling]Which is absolutely not saying that there's WMD or even WMD programmes [/sound of politician backpedaling]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3325539.stm

[pgwenthold]

Originally posted by The Don
According to Tony Blair there's "massive evidence of a huge system of secret laboratories in Iraq. "



Of course there is. Just follow the logic:

1) We know there are massive stockpiles of chemical weapons and a massive chemical weapons program in Iraq
2) Despite searching every nook and cranny, they aren't any place we can find them.
3) Hence, they must be in secret locations

If you start with the assumption that there is a weapons program, then you'd come to the conclusion that it must be secret. If it wasn't secret, we'd have found it by now.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by pgwenthold


Of course there is. Just follow the logic:

1) We know there are massive stockpiles of chemical weapons and a massive chemical weapons program in Iraq
2) Despite searching every nook and cranny, they aren't any place we can find them.
3) Hence, they must be in secret locations

If you start with the assumption that there is a weapons program, then you'd come to the conclusion that it must be secret. If it wasn't secret, we'd have found it by now.


If they are secret, how did US / UK intelligence find out about them, and if they did find out about them, why can't we find them now? If they were found then that would be actionable intelligence. They should have marked these secret locations with big Xs. If the secret locations were found then they would be no longer secret to the coalition of the willing, except intelligence should not let on that they found them, so the Iraqi's and Saddam still think that their secrets are safe.


Is this what Rumsfeld was talking about when he rambled on about knowable knowns, unknowable knowns, knowable unknowns, and unknowable unknowns? or is this something completely different? like an episode of Monty Python? or am I totally of base?

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by PygmyPlaidGiraffe



....


Is this what Rumsfeld was talking about when he rambled on about knowable knowns, unknowable knowns, knowable unknowns, and unknowable unknowns? or is this something completely different? like an episode of Monty Python? or am I totally of base?


Apparantly Crocodile Deathrole has Rummy's wisdom in his sig if you want to get an idea of what it was he babbled.