Am not a truther, i just have an uncanny ability to see the obvious

[se7ensnakes]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

[Marduk]

so youre some sort of self denying super truther,
:p

[Sam.I.Am]

Complicit in what way? Be as exact as you can.

[alienentity]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

Forget 9/11. With powers like that, I wanna know about the stock market, the economy and the location of Osama Bin Laden.

Can you let us know?

Anyway, how do we know you're not working for the government? I have an amazing intuition about these things, and I think you're part of it. I'm always right, too. Just like you probably are.;)

[Humanzee]

You say its clearly before peoples eyes. I don't think you can make that call. In no way was the Madoff affair an obvious event otherwise its unlikely so many would have fallen prey. It was moore like wishful thinking. Which is what you are doing when you equate your paranoia with clarity.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I value my ability to see these kinds of things.


I hypothesize that you may in fact be color blind.

For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.


Eesh... Random thoughts, or what?

ETA: If you're talking about Madoff or conspiracy theories in general, you're in the wrong forum. Therefore, I question your self-proclaimed ability to see things as they are.

[Sword_Of_Truth]

I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff.

Can I ask how much you've donated to twoofer groups or spent on twoof products like DVDs, t-shirts, et cetera?

[HannibalGroup]

so youre some sort of self denying super truther,
:p

A Nano-Truther?

[WildCat]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.
Awesome!

[AJM8125]

"Am not a truther, i just have an uncanny ability to see the obvious"

Now if you only could develop the ability to write the obvious.

[Bobert]

How original YET ANOTHER, "I am not a truther" truther.

[Doctor Evil]

"I am not a truther, but I play one on the interwebs"

:wackySLEEP:

[fourtoe]

I can see why some aTruthers wouldn't want to be called Truthers considering all the negative thoughts that come to mind when hearing/using that label.

But I'm perfectly happy just calling you a Conspiracy Theorist (CT) because I don't think that you can get rid of that label with your logic.

[Caustic Logic]

Forget 9/11. With powers like that, I wanna know about the stock market, the economy and the location of Osama Bin Laden.


No, no. he can only see the obvious. Therefore he's not particularly smart, it's just that most of the rest of us are dumb in comparison, since we can't (or won/t?) see the obvious. It's obvious.

[grandthefttoaster]

I'm so smart and awesome, I'm going to create my own thread all about beautiful me and how great I am.

[fourtoe]

No, no. he can only see the obvious. Therefore he's not particularly smart, it's just that most of the rest of us are dumb in comparison, since we can't (or won/t?) see the obvious. It's obvious.


Ehhhh, I don't see it.

[Audible Click]

People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.



http://forums.randi.org/imagehosting/266624ab4754f6ab92.jpg (http://forums.randi.org/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=17607)

[Myriad]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things.


May I ask when it first became obvious to you?

If it is so obvious, then you must have been aware of the government's complicity long before you ever saw any 9/11 conspiracy videos or books or Web sites. In fact, long before any such videos, books, or Web sites even existed. Right?

This should be easy for you to prove, then. Show us where and when you first announced your discovery of the obvious, in some communication whose date can be established, such as a letter to the editor or a message board post. I'd settle for any time before -- just to pull an arbitrary date out of the air -- April of 2005.

I'm sure it could not have taken you more than three years to realize the obvious and speak out about it. So this should be easy for you to show.

For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff.


As far as I know, the only people who ever get taken by the likes of Madoff are people who have money for the likes of Madoff to take. So I rather suspect you're quite safe in that regard.

Respectfully,
Myriad

[NutCracker]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

And when asked for proof of their conclusion they say "It's obvious." They indeed give some kind of "proof": the give the chain of thoughts that leads to their conclusion. That chain is the empty chain. Their conclusion is an axiom in their belief system.

[Brattus]

9/11? Did something happen on 9/11?
I obviously missed something.

[TruthersLie]

a run by twoofing.

how quaint. Or maybe it really was sarcasm... time will tell.

[CHF]

People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

Could that possibly be the most amazing ironic quote EVER by a truther?

[Stellafane]

Am not a truther, i just have an uncanny ability to see the obvious

Do you also see dead people?

[MysteryMammal]

I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11.

Complicit? Proof please.

Negligent may be a better word.

[BigAl]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

You are on ignore until you get your eyesight checked.

[leftysergeant]

Do you also see dead people?

I'm sure he hears them.

[16.5]

I Am not a truther, i just have an uncanny ability to see the obvious
When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was not complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that do believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

I am also Spartacus

[ElMondoHummus]

Why did this OP get so many responses? It really doesn't merit any.

[16.5]

Why did this OP get so many responses? It really doesn't merit any.

For the Lulz

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Why did this OP get so many responses? It really doesn't merit any.


Slow day at NWO Headquarters? ;)

[dafydd]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

Why is it obvious?

[dafydd]

9/11? Did something happen on 9/11?
I obviously missed something.

Yes.some terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings,killing a lot of innocent people.

[Brattus]

Yes.some terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings,killing a lot of innocent people.

Wow! That is truly horrible!
My ability to see the obvious is obviously not uncanny.

[T.A.M.]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

That's nice. Glad to here it. Have a nice life.

NEXT!!!

TAM:)

[ElMondoHummus]

Slow day at NWO Headquarters? ;)

I knew it :mglook! It's time to start monitoring web traffic at Neocon aka "George W. Memorial" pavillion! I mean, we do it to the public anyway, might as well do it to the staff too, right? :eek::D;)

[doobiedoright]

Yes.some terrorists hijacked planes and flew them into buildings,killing a lot of innocent people.

Bingo!!!!!!!!

[The Platypus]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

No you weren't taken by the likes of Madoff, but it is obvious that you have been taken by the likes of people like Alex Jones, Richard Gage, David Griffin and/or Dylan Avery.

It's also obvious that you have it completely backwards, for the obvious reason of attempting to fool people. People that believe in conspiracy theories are obviously more easily taken and are more likely to fall for other delusions and scams. After all, if you fell for one already, so your likely to fall for others.

So much for your "uncanny ability to see the obvious", your post proves otherwise...

[ElMondoHummus]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

When the purile get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they start looking at all sorts of conspiracy peddling sites, then after gullibly marinating their brain in all sorts of logical fallacies, inane arguments, and vaguely interconnected and factually unsupported agitprop, begin formulating vague, nonsensical screeds devoid of evidence with much assertion but little logic and post them in the JREF forums. This is an act of sheer and utter mental oblivion. I dont see myself as a "debunker" or "JREF'er" (or "Goverment Shill" :D), it is just obvious that airplanes and terrorists were involved in the events of 9/11. It's obvious because that's where all the evidence lays; you know, things like airplane parts, dead bodies, zero signs of demolitions use, stuff like that. I value my ability to see these kinds of things (otherwise known as "The Obvious") because it proves to me that I'm not blind or deaf, and that I'm able to discern mundane things like, oh, REALITY! For that reason I am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Alex or Steven Jones, DRG, Avery, Rowe, and Bermas, Kevin Ryan, etc. People that believe in conspiracies are easily taken by those folks.

[leftysergeant]

Why did this OP get so many responses? It really doesn't merit any.

For the same reason I punch holes in paper with my Mosin-Nagant.

I'm not in any danger at the moment. but if some dirt bagger faction gets froggy and tries to start a rebellion, they will be light a few when the police or Army arrive to clean their clocks.

[twinstead]

I have an uncanny ability to spot ridiculous, seagull dropping started threads

[Beanbag]

Seagull Poster: flies in, makes a lot of noise and flapping, craps all over everything, then flies off, never to be seen again.

Beanbag

[MIKILLINI]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.


Translation: I just wanted to see a thread started by me.

The End

[The Lone Bolt]

Well it's pretty obvious he's a loon and he can't see that.:rolleyes:

[thought_fugitive]

a run by twoofing.

how quaint. Or maybe it really was sarcasm... time will tell.

I wish there was a forum feature to flag posters who could plausibly be related to Yrreg.

Oh also se7ensnakes, why did you write on the visitor wall (http://forums.randi.org/member.php?u=13429) in your own forum profile? With the same sentence as the title in your OP? I always thought the various functions of the forum software were pretty obvious.


19th September 2009 12:20 AM
se7ensnakes
I am not a truther, I just have the uncanny ability to see the obvious.


:wackycute:

[se7ensnakes]

Most of you have been on this road before, you have been presented with the evidence. You have read reports by NIST and the opposition, you have seem videos of the collapses, you have read about flight 77 and the inability of any jet fighters intercept it. You have seen time and time again the collapse of the towers. The problem is not in the evidence, the problem is with you. Either you refuse to see the obvious and think for yourself, or you take your wayward patriotic fantasies and protect the very people that allowed this to happen. Remember, the problem is with you, it lies nowhere else.

[16.5]

An open letter to Truthers:

Most of you have been on this road before, you have been presented with the evidence. You have read reports by NIST and the opposition, you have seem videos of the collapses, you have read about flight 77 and the inability of any jet fighters intercept it. You have seen time and time again the collapse of the towers. The problem is not in the evidence, the problem is with you. Either you refuse to see the obvious and think for yourself, or you take your wayward fantasies and protect the very people that allowed this to happen. Remember, the problem is with you, it lies nowhere else.

/obviously!

[R.Mackey]

Most of you have been on this road before, you have been presented with the evidence. You have read reports by NIST and the opposition, you have seem videos of the collapses, you have read about flight 77 and the inability of any jet fighters intercept it. You have seen time and time again the collapse of the towers. The problem is not in the evidence, the problem is with you. Either you refuse to see the obvious and think for yourself, or you take your wayward patriotic fantasies and protect the very people that allowed this to happen. Remember, the problem is with you, it lies nowhere else.

This is exactly how we feel about you.

Except for the obvious difference in quality -- our side has hundreds of published papers, scientific conferences, Pulitzer Prize winning journalism and histories. Your side has Charlie Sheen, Alex Jones, junk science in vanity journals, and about a million incoherent YouTube videos. Gosh, who to choose.

[TruthersLie]

Most of you have been on this road before, you have been presented with the evidence. You have read reports by NIST and the opposition,


I have only read 2,000 of the 10,000 pages.. but I have read enough.. how about twoofie? Have you even managed to read the NIST FAQ? I seriously doubt it.


you have seem videos of the collapses, you have read about flight 77 and the inability of any jet fighters intercept it.

are you really trying to bring up the 10 minute jet intercepts crap? ROFLMAO. Oh that is too funny.
You really should do some real research twoof.


You have seen time and time again the collapse of the towers. The problem is not in the evidence


you are soo right. The evidence shows NO inside job. It shows No CD charges. It shows paint chips being passed off as Nanothermite (snicker) to the ignorant. It shows a gravity driven collapse, and it shows that 4 jets crashed into 3 buildings and one field.

Either you refuse to see the obvious and think for yourself, or you take your wayward patriotic fantasies and protect the very people that allowed this to happen.

with your community college experience feel free to point out the obvious. Facts, figures and evidence. it should be easy for you to find.

Remember, the problem is with you, it lies nowhere else.
remember, the burden of proof is on da twoof.

[ElMondoHummus]

Most of you have been on this road before, you have been presented with the evidence. You have read reports by NIST and the opposition, you have seem videos of the collapses, you have read about flight 77 and the inability of any jet fighters intercept it. You have seen time and time again the collapse of the towers. The problem is not in the evidence, the problem is with you. Either you refuse to see the obvious and think for yourself, or you take your wayward patriotic fantasies and protect the very people that allowed this to happen. Remember, the problem is with you, it lies nowhere else.


We do see the obvious. Among the "obvious" there is:

The fact that none of the recovered structural components of the Towers or building 7 showed any signs of explosives or incendiaries having been used on them
The fact that thousands of people from dozens of state and federal agencies - including but not limited to the FBI, the NJ/NY Port Authority, the NYPD Crime Scene Units, the FDNY, the Customs Agency, etc. - combed the debris and never reported anything consistent with being the remains of explosives or incendiaries, and never reported seeing any debris that appeared to have been affected by such.
The fact that the NORAD tapes clearly demonstrate how the system allowed the flights to reach their destination without interception.
The fact that engineering firms and academic organizations around the world, from Europe to China, have also studied the event and not only find no reason to doubt the facts as they've so far been established, but have conducted their own research that compliments and confirms the construction elements that were identified as having rendered the Twin Towers susceptible to fire and damage induced global collapse.
And the fact that the "evidence" for a plot forwarded by conspiracy peddlers have been repeatedly shown to be lacking or outright distortions. Every argument forwarded for 9/11 being an "inside job" has fallen completely flat, from the old, ridiculous claims of "squibs" sightings, to the truther inability to discern metaphor from literal description when citing witness accounts of "explosions", from the flat inability to properly understand the unique elements of the Twin Towers when making "collapse will arrest" arguments, to the utter refusal to acknowledge the outright distortions and handwaves in research like the Jones Bentham papers. Both the negative and positive information that exists point well away from conspiracy proposals, and instead at the narrative as we understand it today.
Posts empty of supporting arguments and instead aimed at questioning everyone's motives in this forum fail for the simple reason that you don't know anyone here. You can retail your own mistaken perception of how we are to your heart's content, but until you can make any real arguments, complete with supporting facts, you fail to achieve anything.

It doesn't matter what our motives or behavior are; what matters is what the facts are. And those very same facts obliterate the notion that 9/11 was some sort of conspiracy by the US government.

[Hokulele]

Heh, you should see what he/she is saying about Buddhism over in R&P. :cool:

[Lensman]

<snip>to the truther inability to discern metaphor from literal description when citing witness accounts of "explosions",

Exactly, I watched a documentary about 9/11 last week where one survivor described the collapse of the first tower as sounding like a freight train, does that mean that an actual freight train was bearing down on him?

[Redtail]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.

Heh, it's funny because there's an obvious flaw in your logic here yet you can't see it.

[johnny karate]

An uncanny ability to see the obvious?

Is that like being exceptional at sitting?

Or a gifted breather?

Someone needs to stop playing grown-up on the Internet and study a little harder for their remedial English Composition class.

[HyJinX]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.


You saw them do it? What did you see?

[CHF]

Most of you have been on this road before, you have been presented with the evidence. You have read reports by NIST and the opposition, you have seem videos of the collapses, you have read about flight 77 and the inability of any jet fighters intercept it. You have seen time and time again the collapse of the towers. The problem is not in the evidence, the problem is with you. Either you refuse to see the obvious and think for yourself, or you take your wayward patriotic fantasies and protect the very people that allowed this to happen. Remember, the problem is with you, it lies nowhere else.

What's really amazing is that to you the evidence of an inside job is sooooo overwheling that you think it should be self-evident to anyone who so much as looks at it.

And yet despite this certainty you folks can't put it all together into a semi-coherent narrative to save your life.

[CHF]

Exactly, I watched a documentary about 9/11 last week where one survivor described the collapse of the first tower as sounding like a freight train, does that mean that an actual freight train was bearing down on him?

Well obviously :rolleyes:

loosetrains911.blogspot.com/

EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS OF TRAINS IN THE WTC
They Heard Those Trains A' Comin'

Nicholas Borrillo -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) on 23rd floor of North Tower:
Then we heard a rumble. We heard it and we felt the whole building shake. It was like being on a train, being in an earthquake. A train is more like it, because with the train you hear the rumbling, and it kind of like moved you around in the hall.

Paul Curran -- Fire Patrolman (F.D.N.Y.) North Tower:
I went back and stood right in front of Eight World Trade Center right by the customs house, and the north tower was set right next to it. Not that much time went by, and all of a sudden the ground just started shaking. It felt like a train was running under my feet.

Joseph Fortis -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) T]he ground started shaking like a train was coming. You looked up, and I guess -- I don't know, it was one that came down first or two? Which one?

Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47] At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118] You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.

The last guy says he actually SAW the train coming down. What could be more straighforward?

[ElMondoHummus]

An uncanny ability to see the obvious?

Is that like being exceptional at sitting?

Or a gifted breather?

Someone needs to stop playing grown-up on the Internet and study a little harder for their remedial English Composition class.

Hey! I'm a gifted breather! I even have many phone recordings and a police report to pro...

... uhhh, someone remind me why I started this post? :boggled::eek::o

;)

[ElMondoHummus]

Well obviously :rolleyes:

loosetrains911.blogspot.com/

EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS OF TRAINS IN THE WTC
They Heard Those Trains A' Comin'

Nicholas Borrillo -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) on 23rd floor of North Tower:
Then we heard a rumble. We heard it and we felt the whole building shake. It was like being on a train, being in an earthquake. A train is more like it, because with the train you hear the rumbling, and it kind of like moved you around in the hall.

Paul Curran -- Fire Patrolman (F.D.N.Y.) North Tower:
I went back and stood right in front of Eight World Trade Center right by the customs house, and the north tower was set right next to it. Not that much time went by, and all of a sudden the ground just started shaking. It felt like a train was running under my feet.

Joseph Fortis -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) T]he ground started shaking like a train was coming. You looked up, and I guess -- I don't know, it was one that came down first or two? Which one?

Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47] At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118] You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.

The last guy says he actually SAW the train coming down. What could be more straighforward?

:dl:

That's awesome! :D

[twinstead]

I never did trust trains

[beachnut]

When people get frustrated in dealing with what is clearly before their eyes, they begin formulating different methods of attack, such as labeling people. This is an act of frustration. I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11. I value my ability to see these kinds of things. For that reason i am certain that i would have never been taken by the likes of Madoff. People that dont believe in conspiracies are easily taken.
You are taken by the idiots of 911 truth but when it comes to money you would not be taken by Madoff. Let me guess; you have no money, but you have tons of common sense and it all comes back to physics. lol

I love the part where you are making claims but can't support them due to your vastly superior common sense and your insistence that what you think is what is true. But the sad part you have to present evidence and you have no evidence so your thoughts on 911 are delusions because you fail to back up your ideas with evidence. This is simple, your hearsay, lies and failed opinions are not evidence so your ideas are solid delusions.

8 years and it is still true you need evidence if you want your failed ideas to be more than delusions and lies. Are you one of those against Obama's message to study harder? What kind of people celebrate the anti-intellectual 911 truth movement which you have boiled down to you being a person who can "see these kinds of things". (wowzer!) Great we have a failed psychic who believes in lies and delusions.

Got evidence? No you have the vastly superior common sense that enables you to see these kinds of things. You state lies by not having evidence.

"Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." ... Einstein The physics

[portlandatheist]

I never did trust trains

Always follow the money. Who stood to benefit when people were afraid to fly? Coincidence?

[EventHorizon]

You keep on using this word, 'obvious'. And well...

G2y8Sx4B2Sk

I don't think a lot of words mean what you think they mean.

[MIKILLINI]

Most of you have been on this road before, you have been presented with the evidence. You have read reports by NIST and the opposition, you have seem videos of the collapses, you have read about flight 77 and the inability of any jet fighters intercept it. You have seen time and time again the collapse of the towers. The problem is not in the evidence, the problem is with you..

Well, the problem isn't the evidence; The problem is with those who refuse to accept the available evidence and test it for themselves by gaining knowledge of each subject and how it applies.

Either you refuse to see the obvious and think for yourself, or you take your wayward patriotic fantasies and protect the very people that allowed this to happen. Remember, the problem is with you, it lies nowhere else

What compelling evidence do you have to arrive at this conclusion?

[Elizabeth I]

Exactly, I watched a documentary about 9/11 last week where one survivor described the collapse of the first tower as sounding like a freight train, does that mean that an actual freight train was bearing down on him?

I've heard that people often describe tornados as sounding "like a freight train passing overhead."

Judging by truther logic, there are an awful lot of freight trains that have jumped the track and are somehow flying around the country over people's houses.

[portlandatheist]

se7ensnakes ,
What differentiates you from a truther?

[TruthersLie]

absolutely nothing.

[Brattus]

OK I'm confused now. Earlier in this thread I was told that planes were flown into the towers now it turns out to be trains?
Is that what they used to freight in all that super thermite?

[Checkmite]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c159/jk_mellifera/clippytruth.jpg

[Stellafane]

Personally, I'm a no-trainer.

As to the OPer, what I'm about to say applies to both your argument, and to you. I know one of the overarching guidelines of this forum is "attack the argument, not the arguer," but I don't consider this an attack. Instead, I offer this as an observation and piece of advice, one that I hope doesn't come across as dismissive or condenscending:

In a way, I can sort of see how someone can construct a convoluted 9/11 conspiracy theory contrary to the vast mountain of evidence that we, for want of a better term, collectively call the Official Story. To do so you have to ignore and/or explain away all the facts and evidence that the majority of us consider self-evident, and construct incredibly complex and seemingly implausible theories of what really occured behind the scenes. I don't think it's a good way to go about finding the truth, but given enough time (and driven by political or ideological motives) I can imagine how someone might do it.

But to look at the facts as they are and conclude that a government conspiracy is "obvious" requires a mindset and outlook that, to be frank, simply is not healthy. And taking that one step further by going online and actually promoting that view goes beyond unhealthy; to me it indicates an issue that is not going to be addressed by arguing with people without actually listening to what they're trying to tell you.

Because here it is: the government's guilt in 9/11 is not obvious. That's a fact, not an opinion. I don't see it, and neither do most people. You may think you detect it in magnified pixels or ambiguous words spoken by people in extremis. Perhaps you see evidence in a connection of random dots. Maybe you've gone to the wrong sources for your information, believing things provided by the utterly incompetent or those who wish to make a buck off the gullible. Or maybe you just started with some preconceived notions, and rather than give them up you built a conspiracy with a structure so illogical and fragile that it makes a house of cards look like the Pyramids. But nothing about it is obvious, because by definition the obvious is there for all to see. And since most of us don't see what you consider "obvious" governmental guilt, then what you perceive as an "uncanny ability" may be something else entirely, something that you may want to examine closely. Because applied to the wrong set of circumstances, that "uncanny ability" may get you into situations far more dire than simply looking extremely foolish on an internet forum.

That's it -- no name calling or anything. Just an observation from someone you don't know and will almost certainly never meet. All I might ask is that you consider giving it a moment's thought.

[Drudgewire]

I'm not a mutant. I just have three arms.

[triforcharity]

Checkmite,

That, my friend, just made me spit my coffe all over my keyboard and screen. Thank you. The bill is in the mail.
:D

[paulheinze]

You say its clearly before peoples eyes. I don't think you can make that call. In no way was the Madoff affair an obvious event otherwise its unlikely so many would have fallen prey.

People tend to be blinded by their greed (or by their naive presumption about their government). So they do not see something others see clearly.

[paulheinze]

I've heard that people often describe tornados as sounding "like a freight train passing overhead."

Judging by truther logic, there are an awful lot of freight trains that have jumped the track and are somehow flying around the country over people's houses.

Or when some people hear a train it is actually coming. Hopefully you will be not on the rails when you tell your comrades "Hey its just a tornado".

[paulheinze]

Because here it is: the government's guilt in 9/11 is not obvious.

Neither is the guilt of the 19 hijackers.

I am not aware of any proof that Atta boarded Flight 11. But as you bushies know the truth you could help me out.

[BigAl]

Neither is the guilt of the 19 hijackers.

I am not aware of any proof that Atta boarded Flight 11. But as you bushies know the truth you could help me out.


Evidence for The 19 Arab Islamist Hijackers Edited 7/16/09

http://911links.webs.com/19Hijackers.htm

Table of Contents
[1] Reading list for all the evidence we have about the hijackers.
[2] The martyrdom videos made by 7 of the hijackers.
[3] Arabic spoken in cockpits of hijacked planes.
[4] Boarding manifest for Flt11 that shows hijacker's names
[5] The names of the hijackers
[6] BBC on the names and reporting of the hijackers
[7] Answers to Zeitgeist The Movie: - Flight Manifests
[8] Status of Hijacker DNA - (2009)
[9] Answer to "At Least 7 of the 9/11 Hijackers are Still Alive"
[10] bin Laden Connections to the 19 hijackers
[11] News Report on hijackers as of Nov 2, 2001
[12] Hanjour as a pilot
[13] Photo and DNA ID match of some of the hijackers.
[14] Identification of the Flt 77 hijackers
[15] Pictures of the Hanjour and another hijacker boarding the airplanes.
[16] Details of airline tickets for some of the hijackers.
[17] 166-page 9/11 Commission document contains lots of information on hijacker visa applications, with a particular focus on Mohamed Atta.
[18] This 9/11 Commission document includes an INS analysis of Abdulaziz al-Omari's passport, presumably recovered from the Flight 11 crash scene, and reports on another Abdulaziz al-Omari who had no connection at all with terrorism or the plot, but was caught up in one of the "hijacker still alive" stories.
If you want to knowwhy each person is on the list, read any or all of these books to get an idea of just how much evidence for who hijacked the planes and how they are connected directly to bin Laden and KSM and the American Embassy bombings in Africa and the attack on the USS Cole. Some of these names were known to the FBI even before 9/11/2001 for their crimes.

[1] ----- Essential reading list ---------------------------

The Looming Tower: Al Qaeda and the Road to 9/11 by Lawrence
Perfect Soldiers: The 9/11 Hijackers: Who They Were, Why They Did It by Terry Mcdermott
The Shadow Factory: The Ultra-Secret NSA from 9/11 to the Eavesdropping on America, by James Bamford.
PBS Video on Bamford http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/spyfactory/program.html
Spying Blind by Amy Zegart
Perfect Soldiers by Terry McDermott

[2] -------Hijacker videos -------------------------------------------

This video has the martyrdom videos made by some of the hijackers.
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=1619489
Hijackers video wills (Scroll down to the bottom)
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Responsibility

[3] -------Arab Audio on Voice recorders --------------

We have the audio of Arabs on the recovered cockpit voice recorders.
The CVR clearly captured the words of the hijackers, including words in Arabic from the microphone in the pilot headset up to the end of the flight. The hijackers' statements, the clarity of the recording, the position of the microphone in the pilot headset, and the corresponding manipulations of flight controls provide the evidence. The quotes are taken from our listening to the CVR, aided by an Arabic speaker.
http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/9/11_Commission_Report/Notes/Part_1

[4] -----------Boarding Manifests ---------------------------

I have the boarding manifest for Flt11 that shows the names.
http://www.911myths.com/images/8/84/Flight_11_Manifest.gif http://www.911myths.com/images/8/84/Flight_11_Manifest.gif
Discussion
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=124907
Flash app shows seating, calls , hijackers,
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/flights/P200018.html

[5] -----Hijacker names ------------------------------

AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77
1) Khalid Almihdhar - Possible Saudi national
-Possible resident of San Diego, California, and New York
-Alias: Sannan Al-Makki; Khalid Bin Muhammad; 'Addallah Al-Mihdhar;
Khalid Mohammad Al-Saqaf

2) Majed Moqed - Possible Saudi national
-Alias: Majed M.GH Moqed; Majed Moqed, Majed Mashaan Moqed

3) Nawaf Alhazmi - Possible Saudi national
-Possible resident of Fort Lee, New Jersey; Wayne, New Jersey; San Diego, California
-Alias: Nawaf Al-Hazmi; Nawaf Al Hazmi; Nawaf M.S. Al Hazmi
4) Salem Alhazmi - Possible Saudi national
-Possible resident of Fort Lee, New Jersey; Wayne, New Jersey
5) Hani Hanjour -
-Possible resident of Phoenix, Arizona, and San Diego, California
-Alias: Hani Saleh Hanjour; Hani Saleh; Hani Hanjour, Hani Saleh H. Hanjour

AMERICAN AIRLINES #11 BOEING 767
1) Satam M.A. Al Suqami- Possible Saudi national
-Dates of birth used: June 28, 1976; Last known address: United Arab Emirates
2) Waleed M. Alshehri - Possible Saudi national
-Dates of birth used: September 13, 1974; January 1, 1976; March 3,
1976; July 8, 1977; December 20, 1978; May 11, 1979; November 5, 1979
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Orlando, Florida;
Daytona Beach, Florida
-Believed to be a pilot

3) Wail M. Alshehri
-Date of birth used: September 1, 1968
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Newton, Massachusetts
-Believed to be a pilot
4) Mohamed Atta - Possible Egyptian national
-Date of birth used: September 1, 1968
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida; Coral Springs, Florida;
Hamburg, Germany
-Believed to be a pilot
-Alias: Mehan Atta; Mohammad El Amir; Muhammad Atta; Mohamed El
Sayed; Mohamed Elsayed; Muhammad Muhammad Al Amir Awag Al Sayyid
Atta; Muhammad Muhammad Al-Amir Awad Al Sayad

5) Abdulaziz Alomari - Possible Saudi national
-Dates of birth used: December 24, 1972 and May 28, 1979
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida
-Believed to be a pilot
UNITED AIRLINES #175 BOEING 767
1) Marwan Al-Shehhi
-Date of birth used: May 9, 1978
-Possible residence(s): Hollywood, Florida
-Believed to be a pilot
-Alias: Marwan Yusif Muhammad Rashid Al-Shehi; Marwan Yusif Muhammad
Rashid Lakrab Al-Shihhi; Abu Abdullah
2) Fayez Rashid Ahmed Hassan Al Qadi Banihammad
-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Fayez Ahmad; Banihammad Fayez Abu Dhabi Banihammad; Fayez
Rashid Ahmed; Banihammad Fayez; Rasid Ahmed Hassen Alqadi; Abu
Dhabi Banihammad ; Ahmed Fayez; Faez Ahmed
3) Ahmed Alghamdi
-Alias: Ahmed Salah Alghamdi
4) Hamza Alghamdi
-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Hamza Al-Ghamdi; Hamza Ghamdi; Hamzah Alghamdi; Hamza
Alghamdi Saleh
5) Mohand Alshehri
-Possible residence(s): Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Mohammed Alshehhi; Mohamd Alshehri; Mohald Alshehri
UNITED AIRLINES #93 BOEING 757
1) Saeed Alghamdi
-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Abdul Rahman Saed Alghamdi; Ali S Alghamdi; Al- Gamdi; Saad
M.S. Al Ghamdi; Sadda Al Ghamdi; Saheed Al-Ghamdi; Seed Al Ghamdi
2) Ahmed Ibrahim A. Al Haznawi - Possible Saudi national
-Date of birth used: October 11, 1980
-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Ahmed Alhaznawi
3) Ahmed Alnami
-Possible residence: Delray Beach, Florida
-Alias: Ali Ahmed Alnami; Ahmed A. Al-Nami; Ahmed Al- Nawi
4) Ziad Samir Jarrah
-Believed to be a pilot
-Alias: Zaid Jarrahi; Zaid Samr Jarrah; Ziad S. Jarrah; Ziad Jarrah
Jarrat, Ziad Samir Jarrahi

[6] -----------------------------------------

BBC on the names and reporting of the hijackers
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html

[7] ----------------------------------
Answers to Zeitgeist The Movie: - Flight Manifests
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCj8X2glIrA

[8] ------------------------------------------------

Newsweek - Remains of the Day
Nineteen hijackers died on 9/11. What should be done with what's left of them? Eve Conant
From the magazine issue dated Jan 12, 2009
...Through a combination of innovative DNA-mapping techniques, help from the FBI's crime lab and dumb luck, the scientists have now ID'd four of the 10 New York hijackers. The remains of the nine hijackers from the Pentagon and Pennsylvania crash sites have also been confirmed; six other hijackers have yet to be identified. ...
http://www.newsweek.com/id/177724/output/print

[9] -----------------------------------------------

At Least 7 of the 9/11 Hijackers are Still Alive
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/hijackers.html
BBC Response
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html
[10] ----------------------------------------------------


bib Laden Connections to the 19 hijackers

[11] -------------------------------------------------------

News report as of Nov 2, 2001
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/11/02/attack/main316806.shtml

[12] --------------------------------------------

New York Newsday article from 9/23/01. "Despite Hanjour's poor reviews, he did have some ability as a pilot, said Bernard of Freeway Airport. "There's no doubt in my mind that once that [hijacked jet] got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it," he said." Most of the complaints that I've seen were that he couldn't land well. Considering what he was planning on doing, I wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't exactly the top of his "skills to hone" list.
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/disinfo/deceptions/nynewsday_sep23.html
Woman taught 9/11 hijacker how to fly
http://www.capeargus.co.za/index.php?fSectionId=55&fArticleId=3171841

[13] -------------------------

Photo and DNA ID match of some of the pilots.
This 9/11 Commission document explains how the FBI attempted to verify the hijackers identities (includes an apparent DNA match with Jarrah).
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13950034/T5-B62-T-Eldridge-Files-Aliases-and-IDs-Fdr-Doc-Req-54-and-43-FBI-ID-of-Hijackers-by-Family-Members-PENTTBOM
http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:Team5_Box62_AliasesAndIDs-FBIIDsHijackers-1.pdf

[14] ---- Identification of the Flt 77 hijackers ---------

This 9/11 Commission document includes details of a forensic examination of hijacker ID cards recovered from the Pentagon, and a list of identification documents belonging to the hijackers (passports, visas, driving licences, more).
http://911myths.com/images/b/ba/Team5_Box46_Chronology_US_Identifications.pdf

[15] --------------------------------

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x34702

[16] ---------------------------------

Details in hijacker tickets.
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=4722224#post4722224
[17] ------------------------------



http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:Team5_Box51_Hijacker-Primary-Docs_AA11-ChronologySaudiVisaApps.pdf
[18] ------------------------------



http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:Team5_Box51_Hijacker-Primary-Docs_AA11-AbdulAzizAlomari-Passport.pdf

[16.5]

Neither is the guilt of the 19 hijackers.

I am not aware of any proof that Atta boarded Flight 11. But as you bushies know the truth you could help me out.

Bushies?

Jesus lad, what is this 2005?

Seriously, start reading and kindly join us here in 2009.

Bushies, how pathetic

[paulheinze]

Evidence for The 19 Arab Islamist Hijackers Edited 7/16/09
What evidence is there that Atta boarded flight 11?

I looked through 911myths. As I see we have only the flight manifests. Did the FBI question people at the airport who might have remembered him boarding the plane. It would be surprising if noone would remember having seen him.

[paulheinze]

Bushies?

Jesus lad, what is this 2005?

Seriously, start reading and kindly join us here in 2009.

Bushies, how pathetic

I do not defend him against accusations, you do.
Anyway, labels like this are below my level. At least this label is less pathetic than childish labels like "Truther". Maybe we should use the semantic opposite of "Truther" as label for the supporters of the official theory. Now you are welcome as "Liar" movement.

[triforcharity]

Paul,

Did you LOOK at any of the links?? Did you even SEE anything that he presented??

Oh, and guess what.

Most of us here, HATE Bush, myself included. Bush bobbled the 9/11 thing due to arrogance.

[Drudgewire]

I do not defend him against accusations, you do.


GW and Laura regularly grilled and ate children on the White House lawn. Any of you rubes who demand evidence of it are Bush apologists. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/fist4su.gif

[paulheinze]

Paul,

Did you LOOK at any of the links?? Did you even SEE anything that he presented??

Oh, and guess what.

Most of us here, HATE Bush, myself included. Bush bobbled the 9/11 thing due to arrogance.

There are many book which i have not available here. I stated my question more precisely. Is there any evidence besides the flight manifests that proves Atta and his comrades boarding the plane? I would be very surprised if the FBI would not have questioned personnel at the airport or people who were present at this time. I am sure someone could tell me where to look for this information.

[triforcharity]

Wooooah there sparkplug, can you please tell me what you mean by this.

First, you called us "Bushies"
But as you bushies know the truth you could help me out.

Then, NOT 20 MINUTES LATER, on the SAME THREAD, you say,
Anyway, labels like this are below my level. At least this label is less pathetic than childish labels like "Truther". Maybe we should use the semantic opposite of "Truther" as label for the supporters of the official theory.

WHATA?????? First, you call us "bushies" then you say names like this are below you.

You are a liar, or you don't understand some of the words that you have typed.

Most of us do NOT support Bush. We support our government's assertation that 9/11 was comitted by 19 assjacks from ME countries. THIS is what we support. We have evidence, MOUNDS AND MOUNDS of evidence.

You Twoofies have...... CArdboard boxes and paint.

[BigAl]

There are many book which i have not available here. I stated my question more precisely. Is there any evidence besides the flight manifests that proves Atta and his comrades boarding the plane? I would be very surprised if the FBI would not have questioned personnel at the airport or people who were present at this time. I am sure someone could tell me where to look for this information.

See item 17, below

Evidence for The 19 Arab Islamist Hijackers Edited 7/16/09

http://911links.webs.com/19Hijackers.htm

Table of Contents
[1] Reading list for all the evidence we have about the hijackers.
[2] The martyrdom videos made by 7 of the hijackers.
[3] Arabic spoken in cockpits of hijacked planes.
[4] Boarding manifest for Flt11 that shows hijacker's names
[5] The names of the hijackers
[6] BBC on the names and reporting of the hijackers
[7] Answers to Zeitgeist The Movie: - Flight Manifests
[8] Status of Hijacker DNA - (2009)
[9] Answer to "At Least 7 of the 9/11 Hijackers are Still Alive"
[10] bin Laden Connections to the 19 hijackers
[11] News Report on hijackers as of Nov 2, 2001
[12] Hanjour as a pilot
[13] Photo and DNA ID match of some of the hijackers.
[14] Identification of the Flt 77 hijackers
[15] Pictures of the Hanjour and another hijacker boarding the airplanes.
[16] Details of airline tickets for some of the hijackers.
[17] 166-page 9/11 Commission document contains lots of information on hijacker visa applications, with a particular focus on Mohamed Atta.

[Dave Rogers]

Maybe we should use the semantic opposite of "Truther" as label for the supporters of the official theory. Now you are welcome as "Liar" movement.

Sometimes I do think of us as the Liar movement; after all, we spend so much time arguing with them.

Dave

[triforcharity]

There are many book which i have not available here. I stated my question more precisely. Is there any evidence besides the flight manifests that proves Atta and his comrades boarding the plane? I would be very surprised if the FBI would not have questioned personnel at the airport or people who were present at this time. I am sure someone could tell me where to look for this information.


Given the fact that this is still an open prosecution, most likely what you are looking for is still sealed as to not compromise any conviction. But, hey, I could be wrong.

Didn't someone find Atta's passport and ID at the crash site??

Didn't the video security caatch him going to the terminal, but never comming back out?? Neither did any of his friends???

You're stretching at it and grasping at straws.
Not to mention handwaving away evidence. Do you know WHERE they get that manifest?? From the BOARDING AGENT. If you DON'T board a plane, your name does NOT go on the list.

[Dave Rogers]

What evidence is there that Atta boarded flight 11?

Enormous amounts. There's so much that there are several conspiracist webpages dedicated to nitpicking in order to discredit it. I found several in a few minutes by googling "Mohammed Atta gate agent".

Did the FBI question people at the airport who might have remembered him boarding the plane. It would be surprising if noone would remember having seen him.

Yes, they questioned them. Yes, they remembered him, but their recollections seem to be somewhat confused - not really surprising in the circumstances. And again, Michael Tuohey's testimony isn't hard to find. Yet you're not even aware of its existence.

So, paulheinze, you've come here claiming some knowledge of 9/11 that the rest of us don't possess, yet you're unaware of the existence of a large body of evidence that can be found with a couple of minutes searching on Google. Has it occurred to you that, just maybe, it's your shockingly poor research skills and resulting ignorance that leads you to a series of false conclusions about 9/11, and that those of us who could be bothered to get off our arses and actually learn something might be the ones who have it right?

And if not, why not?

Dave

[paulheinze]

Given the fact that this is still an open prosecution, most likely what you are looking for is still sealed as to not compromise any conviction. But, hey, I could be wrong.

Didn't someone find Atta's passport and ID at the crash site??

Didn't the video security caatch him going to the terminal, but never comming back out?? Neither did any of his friends???

You're stretching at it and grasping at straws.
Not to mention handwaving away evidence. Do you know WHERE they get that manifest?? From the BOARDING AGENT. If you DON'T board a plane, your name does NOT go on the list.

The only video stills I found show him in Portland.
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/100401picts.htm

Taking into account that Al Qaida is able to create false documents as stated by a HLS representant at the Commission, the mere manifest does not show that Atta himself boarded the plane. On the contrary if you take into account that virtually everybody saw his face on TV little time after the attacks, it would be very plausible that there must be some eyewittnesses. It should have been no problem finding some. The Commission report does not cite any evidence besides the manifest.

This would not prove gov complicity. It is just a point that makes me suspicious.

[paulheinze]

Enormous amounts. There's so much that there are several conspiracist webpages dedicated to nitpicking in order to discredit it. I found several in a few minutes by googling "Mohammed Atta gate agent".


Thanks, I found it.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24596

[MikeW]

Is there any evidence besides the flight manifests that proves Atta and his comrades boarding the plane?
There's purchase information that ties them to buying the tickets; some IDs from airline staff who checked them in on 9/11; videos of some of them at the airports (including some that haven't yet been made public); boarding cards containing their names; the flight manifests; reports of hijackers originating in or close to their seats (Sweeney was a row out with Atta and al-Omari, if I remember, but no-one was in those seats); remains recovered from the crash sites that match DNA profiles built up for the hijackers; remains that share DNA characteristics with the hijackers (two of those on flight 77 were brothers); remains that match a DNA profile from abroad (Jarrah's remains match a profile created in Germany from Senguen's apartment); remains matching a latent fingerprint from one of the hijackers visa applications; various hijackers personal effects recovered from the crash scenes; and a British teacher who lived with Jarrah when he was learning to fly appears to say he recognised Jarrah's voice giving the "bomb on board" warning from the flight 93 cockpit.

[TruthersLie]

People tend to be blinded by their greed (or by their naive presumption about their government). So they do not see something others see clearly.

Great.

If is it soooo obvious please lay out the case.

Provide a comprehensive theory of what happened on 9/11. Include any relevant documents to support thies "obvious" and easily seen facts.

Still waiting for those citation.

[TruthersLie]

What evidence is there that Atta boarded flight 11?

I looked through 911myths. As I see we have only the flight manifests. Did the FBI question people at the airport who might have remembered him boarding the plane. It would be surprising if noone would remember having seen him.

You are really going to try to pass off the "hijackers" still alive cannard?

PMSLMAO.

oh paully... That is too funny.

we have the video of him going through security, we have the flight manifests, we have his father stating he is not alive, we have his maytar (sp) video, and even his will..

but of course that means he wasn't there. really.

ready? Here this is simple. It will win you the Pultizer prize. go to Saudi, interview his father, and track him down. Get video of him alive and walking around. Very simple. Very easy. Go for it.

[TruthersLie]

My opinion of bush
http://www.laughparty.com/funny-pictures/President-Bush-Eats-Kitten-1259.jpg

try again twoofie.

[Dave Rogers]

Thanks, I found it.

So, any response to the proven fact that you know very little about the events you claim to have a better understanding of than the rest of us?

Dave

[twinstead]

Oh GOD. Not AGAIN.

Yea, Paulheinz. We're all just loyal Bushies doing our master's bidding. There's no evidence at all to support the commonly-held narrative of that day, we were just told what to think by Bush, and like all good unthinking automatons we just believed every word.

Jesus Christ. Never heard THAT one before.

[SpitfireIX]

Neither is the guilt of the 19 hijackers.

I am not aware of any proof that Atta boarded Flight 11. But as you bushies know the truth you could help me out.



Republican here, proud to have continuously supported John McCain for President ever since he first announced his candidacy in 1998 (though I did vote for Bill Clinton in 1992). As Matt Taibbi put it (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11818067/the_low_post_the_hopeless_stupidity_of_911_conspir acies), "I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change [Rule 10]wads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes." So by all means, keep opening your mouth, and encourage your fellow truthers to do the same. :footinmou

[BigAl]

The only video stills I found show him in Portland.
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/100401picts.htm

Taking into account that Al Qaida is able to create false documents as stated by a HLS representant at the Commission, the mere manifest does not show that Atta himself boarded the plane. On the contrary if you take into account that virtually everybody saw his face on TV little time after the attacks, it would be very plausible that there must be some eyewittnesses. It should have been no problem finding some. The Commission report does not cite any evidence besides the manifest.


A search of the commission report for "atta" shows much much more information that you describe.

For the third time;

http://911myths.com/index.php/Image:Team5_Box51_Hijacker-Primary-Docs_AA11-ChronologySaudiVisaApps.pdf

This is from the 9/11 commission.

[16.5]

I do not defend him against accusations, you do.
Anyway, labels like this are below my level. At least this label is less pathetic than childish labels like "Truther". Maybe we should use the semantic opposite of "Truther" as label for the supporters of the official theory. Now you are welcome as "Liar" movement.

"But as you bushies know the truth you could help me out."

"Anyway, labels like this are below my level."

"At least this label is less pathetic than childish labels like "Truther"

Freaking Truthers, always going completely off the rails and contradicting yourself twice in three sentences. That is gotta be some kind of a freaking record.

Bushies, seriously, WTF? Are you really that dim, son?

[BigAl]

Republican here, proud to have continuously supported John McCain for President ever since he first announced his candidacy in 1998 (though I did vote for Bill Clinton in 1992). As Matt Taibbi put it (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11818067/the_low_post_the_hopeless_stupidity_of_911_conspir acies), "I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change [Rule 10]wads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes." So by all means, keep opening your mouth, and encourage your fellow truthers to do the same. :footinmou

I'm a hardcore liberal for the sake of this discussion and I agree with the above. (I've always been a fan of McCain even if I wouldn't vote for him because of his opponent or his running mate.)

Here's my favorite relevant quote.




"Why do I bother with these morons? [the Truth Movement] Because they are destroying the movements which some of us have spent a long time trying to build. Those of us who believe that the crucial global issues - climate change, the Iraq war, nuclear proliferation, inequality - are insufficiently debated in parliament or congress; that corporate power stands too heavily on democracy; that war criminals, cheats and liars are not being held to account, have invested our efforts in movements outside the mainstream political process. These, we are now discovering, are peculiarly susceptible to this epidemic of gibberish.

The obvious corollorary to the belief that the Bush administration is all-powerful is that the rest of us are completely powerless. In fact it seems to me that the purpose of the "9/11 truth movement" is to be powerless. The omnipotence of the Bush regime is the coward's fantasy, an excuse for inaction used by those who don't have the stomach to engage in real political fights."

- George Monbiot http://www.monbiot.com/

[Checkmite]

Checkmite,

That, my friend, just made me spit my coffe all over my keyboard and screen. Thank you. The bill is in the mail.
:D

Just let me know if you need any other electronics ruined. :biggrin:

[Matthew Cline]

My opinion of bush
http://www.laughparty.com/funny-pictures/President-Bush-Eats-Kitten-1259.jpg

try again twoofie.

Mmmmmmmm, kittens. They go great with puppy sauce.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Or when some people hear a train it is actually coming. Hopefully you will be not on the rails when you tell your comrades "Hey its just a tornado".


Are you arguing that there's a chance that trains were involved in 9/11... or involved in tornadoes? :confused:

Or are you making a really lame attempt to defend your belief that similes may be literal truth by placing statements where a simile is used into a context where it no longer becomes a simile?

Wow, dude...

[twinstead]

Wow, dude...

Wow indeed.

[dudalb]

Seagull Poster: flies in, makes a lot of noise and flapping, craps all over everything, then flies off, never to be seen again.

Beanbag


We get a LOT of those here.....

[MIKILLINI]

GW and Laura regularly grilled and ate children on the White House lawn. Any of you rubes who demand evidence of it are Bush apologists. http://www.lethalwrestling.com/upload/fist4su.gif

At least they didn't eat their own..NWO rules are specific.

[Sabrina]

Or when some people hear a train it is actually coming. Hopefully you will be not on the rails when you tell your comrades "Hey its just a tornado".

*starts singing Dethklok's "Murdertrain A-Comin'* ;)

[Elizabeth I]

Or when some people hear a train it is actually coming. Hopefully you will be not on the rails when you tell your comrades "Hey its just a tornado".

ROFL. There's no such thing as "just a tornado". Have you ever been in one? Close to one? Or are tornadoes really nonexistent, and any time someone says a tornado happened, it's just another government lie?

[MIKILLINI]

*starts singing Dethklok's "Murdertrain A-Comin'* ;)

It got me thinking of going off the rails on this "Crazy Train" :)

[triforcharity]

Just let me know if you need any other electronics ruined. :biggrin:


I could use a new cell phone!! :D:D

[Mr.D]

People tend to be blinded by their greed (or by their naive presumption about their government). So they do not see something others see clearly.

So applying this principle to yourself, what are you blinded by?

[NutCracker]

Are you arguing that there's a chance that trains were involved in 9/11... or involved in tornadoes? :confused:

Or are you making a really lame attempt to defend your belief that similes may be literal truth by placing statements where a simile is used into a context where it no longer becomes a simile?

Wow, dude...

Yep. He's pounding the table. "When witnesses say 'like a bomb'" it IS a bomb. IS IS IS (fingers in ears).

[Sabrina]

It got me thinking of going off the rails on this "Crazy Train" :)

Not violent enough of a song; sorry. :D

For example, first two lines of my song:

Here comes the soul-collecting train of murder coming
It's going to take your rotted blackened soul away from you

See? In the context of this thread, my song works better. :D

[paulheinze]

You are really going to try to pass off the "hijackers" still alive cannard?

PMSLMAO.

oh paully... That is too funny.

we have the video of him going through security, we have the flight manifests, we have his father stating he is not alive, we have his maytar (sp) video, and even his will..
.
The video is showing him boarding in Portland, not in Boston. You should check your sources.

His father stated shortly after 9/11 that he received a call from his son. Anyway this does not have anything to do with question if there are witnesses at the airport.

The flight manifest (supposed not manipulated) show that people with the stated names were on the planes. Taking into account that al qaida is able to create false documents, the flight manifests do not imply that the hijackers were the same persons as the ones presented. They might have used their names. A positive identification would require witnesses that saw them at the check-in or shortly before boarding.

The 9/11 Commission report states that no flight personnel remembered the hijackers boarding the planes.
But there is the article I linked to above, where the person who made the checkin remembers Atta sweating and coming very late to Flight 11. What I do not understand is, that al omari was with Atta the time before, taking the same plane from Portland. Why did he not show up at the same time as Atta? If she remembered one sweating Arab she certainly would have remembered his comrade.

[Brattus]

Edited for civility.

[T.A.M.]

I know you didn't just try to push the "hijackers still alive" theory?

OMG!

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/The_Hijackers
http://wtc7lies.googlepages.com/

Welcome to ignore truther circa 2006.

TAM

[TruthersLie]

The video is showing him boarding in Portland, not in Boston. You should check your sources.


It is rather amazing that you are trying to fly the "terrorists are still alive" Bs. Absolutely astounding.


His father stated shortly after 9/11 that he received a call from his son. Anyway this does not have anything to do with question if there are witnesses at the airport.

And his father is now saying his son was one of the great soldiers who attacke the great satan. It is amazing how that works isn't it? datamine the quotes and miss the rest. Why is it you only do 5 minutes of investigoogling? His own father admits he is dead. So does his country. Absolutely amazing.


The flight manifest (supposed not manipulated) show that people with the stated names were on the planes. Taking into account that al qaida is able to create false documents, the flight manifests do not imply that the hijackers were the same persons as the ones presented.


Yes.. we have the ability to fake the documents. Yup. And their video wills mean NOTHING.. they have been faked.

Flight manifests, matching purchased tickets, matching the rough location of the reported hijackers on the jets.. yup... there is NOTHING there. It is all a set up.


They might have used their names. A positive identification would require witnesses that saw them at the check-in or shortly before boarding.


why do you feel it is necessary? This is just as BS as your "air marshals" on the flights line of thinking. How many people do the airlines counter folks see EVERY DAY? Huh? Several hundred. Yet you want an ID based on old photos from someone. That is absolutely amazing. If they have that kind of memory i"d be very impressed.

The 9/11 Commission report states that no flight personnel remembered the hijackers boarding the planes.


Of course there wouldn't be any that remembered them. IT wasn't like the 19 hijackers were running around yelling "Allah is wonderful, DIE ZIONIST PIGS!!!" They might remember that. But remembering someone who boarded a first class/business ticket? riiiiiigggghhhhttttt!!!!


But there is the article I linked to above, where the person who made the checkin remembers Atta sweating and coming very late to Flight 11. What I do not understand is, that al omari was with Atta the time before, taking the same plane from Portland. Why did he not show up at the same time as Atta? If she remembered one sweating Arab she certainly would have remembered his comrade.

actually try to read it. take out your wonderful political bias, and think about what you are saying and claiming.

19 hijackers use the policies in place to kill the pilots and fly into buildings.
OR
some super dupr conspiracy which has thousands of folks involved, with super duper high tech nanotech, prewiring the buildings and then blowing them up... yet no one has ever talked.

[paulheinze]

It is rather amazing that you are trying to fly the "terrorists are still alive" Bs. Absolutely astounding.


And his father is now saying his son was one of the great soldiers who attacke the great satan. It is amazing how that works isn't it? datamine the quotes and miss the rest. Why is it you only do 5 minutes of investigoogling? His own father admits he is dead. So does his country. Absolutely amazing.



Yes.. we have the ability to fake the documents. Yup. And their video wills mean NOTHING.. they have been faked.

Flight manifests, matching purchased tickets, matching the rough location of the reported hijackers on the jets.. yup... there is NOTHING there. It is all a set up.



why do you feel it is necessary? This is just as BS as your "air marshals" on the flights line of thinking. How many people do the airlines counter folks see EVERY DAY? Huh? Several hundred. Yet you want an ID based on old photos from someone. That is absolutely amazing. If they have that kind of memory i"d be very impressed.



Of course there wouldn't be any that remembered them. IT wasn't like the 19 hijackers were running around yelling "Allah is wonderful, DIE ZIONIST PIGS!!!" They might remember that. But remembering someone who boarded a first class/business ticket? riiiiiigggghhhhttttt!!!!



actually try to read it. take out your wonderful political bias, and think about what you are saying and claiming.

19 hijackers use the policies in place to kill the pilots and fly into buildings.
OR
some super dupr conspiracy which has thousands of folks involved, with super duper high tech nanotech, prewiring the buildings and then blowing them up... yet no one has ever talked.

A remarkable document of your reasoning abilities. Not one point addressed. Just throwing with mud.

It is too complex for you to recognize that my question has nothing to do with government complicity.

[TruthersLie]

A remarkable document of your reasoning abilities. Not one point addressed. Just throwing with mud.

again you show your lack of reading comprehension. I answered EACH of your statements.

try again sparky.. this time pay attention and actually try to read the answers.

[Dave Rogers]

His father stated shortly after 9/11 that he received a call from his son.

Not quite. He stated on September 18th that he could not believe his son was guilty, and was sure he was still alive. He also said he might have been murdered and his documents stolen. On September 19th he was quoted as saying that he hadn't heard from his son since the attack. It wasn't until September 2002 that he made the claim that he'd received the call from his son after the attacks. Strange that he couldn't remember it a week later, but a year later he'd managed to remember it, no?

http://www.maebrussell.com/Articles%20and%20Notes/Eqyptian%20man%20denies%20son's%20involvement%20in %20hijackings.html

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=9482&d=19&m=9&y=2001

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/sep/02/september11.usa

And then, after the 7/7 bombings, he spoke of his son as a fighter in a fifty-year religious war. A strange claim to make about someone who he knew hadn't done anything, don't you think?

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/07/19/atta.father.terror/index.html

Links from http://www.911myths.com/html/mohammed_atta_alive.html - thanks, Mike, as usual.

The 9/11 Commission report states that no flight personnel remembered the hijackers boarding the planes.
But there is the article I linked to above, where the person who made the checkin remembers Atta sweating and coming very late to Flight 11. What I do not understand is, that al omari was with Atta the time before, taking the same plane from Portland. Why did he not show up at the same time as Atta? If she remembered one sweating Arab she certainly would have remembered his comrade.

And this is where you're showing that you're using the tools of pseudoscience, not the tools of science. Your starting hypothesis is, presumably, that the people named as the hijackers were not aboard the planes. When presented with evidence to the contrary, your response is not to attempt to modify your hypothesis to fit the evidence, but to modify the evidence to fit your hypothesis. That's not the action of the honest investigator, it's the propaganda technique of the idealogue.

Dave

[TruthersLie]

A remarkable document of your reasoning abilities. Not one point addressed. Just throwing with mud.

It is too complex for you to recognize that my question has nothing to do with government complicity.

Oh sparky.

Feel free. Lay it all out for us. I mean it is soooo obvious that you, with your community college experience can see it.

I'm still waiting for you to lay it out there. Explain it...

Kinda like how the US invaded iraq to give the oil to... china and russia. NWO baby.

[paulheinze]

again you show your lack of reading comprehension. I answered EACH of your statements.

try again sparky.. this time pay attention and actually try to read the answers.


Make me smarter. Explain your wonderful piece of work to me. I think I will ignore you again.

[paulheinze]

And this is where you're showing that you're using the tools of pseudoscience, not the tools of science. Your starting hypothesis is, presumably, that the people named as the hijackers were not aboard the planes. When presented with evidence to the contrary, your response is not to attempt to modify your hypothesis to fit the evidence, but to modify the evidence to fit your hypothesis. That's not the action of the honest investigator, it's the propaganda technique of the idealogue.

Dave

I hoped you would address my question. So you do not have an answer to it. OK.

[Dave Rogers]

Make me smarter. Explain your wonderful piece of work to me.

And when you've explained your explanation, explain your explanation of that explanation, damnit! Only when you have explained that will 9/11 no longer be an inside job.

I think I will ignore you again.

Oh dear. Looks like he'll never get smarter now.

Dave

[paulheinze]

And when you've explained your explanation, explain your explanation of that explanation, damnit! Only when you have explained that will 9/11 no longer be an inside job.



Oh dear. Looks like he'll never get smarter now.

Dave
Seems so

I want to be sure about the facts and the evidence. I would say we share this aim.
. As I see there is no eyewitness except the one girl who checked atta in but did not remember al omari.

[Dave Rogers]

I hoped you would address my question. So you do not have an answer to it. OK.

The answer is that two people who are accompanying each other at the beginning of a journey, of which they both know the destination, and who are known to be together at the end of the journey, don't need to stay together throughout. This should be obvious to anyone with a two-digit or better IQ. Perhaps Atta went to the toilet, took a little longer than he expected, and had to run to get on the plane, whereas al Omari had had the omelette instead of the curry and as a result wasn't sweating so much. It's trivial to come up with a hundred other possible explanations. The point is that, rather than incorporating new evidence into your hypothesis, your knee-jerk response is to try to find excuses to ignore any evidence that disagrees with the conclusion you want to draw. Pointing at meaningless features of the story to try and manufacture implausibility where none exists is the classic technique of the faith-driven denialist.

Dave

[twinstead]

Paul if you're going to deny any answers to your questions, and cavalierly hand wave away any evidence that contradicts you as "could have been faked" you might possibly have a chance of winning the Irrational Ideologue of the Month Award. That's good, because Investigator of the Year is totally out.

[ElMondoHummus]

His father stated shortly after 9/11 that he received a call from his son. Anyway this does not have anything to do with question if there are witnesses at the airport.


His father also has a history of creating stories to excuse his son, including one about how the Israelis framed him. What you should do is read books like The Looming Tower, Ghost Wars, and the like that traces his path to radicalism, so you understand the background of the individual. Then, understand that he has been identified (more on this below), something you're attempting to deny, but which did indeed happen.


The flight manifest (supposed not manipulated) show that people with the stated names were on the planes. Taking into account that al qaida is able to create false documents the flight manifests do not imply that the hijackers were the same persons as the ones presented.


The identification at Portland does place him on the plane at Logan in Boston. To propose otherwise means that someone else assumed his tickets and identification somewhere in between. And you have zero evidence that this is in fact what happened.

Video in Portland does place him on the Boston flight. How you fail to recognize that is beyond me.


They might have used their names. A positive identification would require witnesses that saw them at the check-in or shortly before boarding.


Again, irrelevant. Positive identification was already made at Portland, and the papertrail is unbroken between there and Boston. Once again, it is up to you to prove that the man boarding in Portland was different from the man boarding in Boston. Without that, you have no case.


The 9/11 Commission report states that no flight personnel remembered the hijackers boarding the planes.


Irrelevant. That simply means they have no recollection of individual passengers. And given the video evidence, plus the paper trail, plus his broadcast over ATC radio instead of the in-plane PA, you have positive identification.


But there is the article I linked to above, where the person who made the checkin remembers Atta sweating and coming very late to Flight 11. What I do not understand is, that al omari was with Atta the time before, taking the same plane from Portland. Why did he not show up at the same time as Atta? If she remembered one sweating Arab she certainly would have remembered his comrade.

How does this matter? Maybe he was in the bathroom and showed up separately. Who cares. This does not bring into question the video evidence linking Atta to the Portland flight and the paper trail linking the Portland and Boston flights, nor the ATM withdrawl documented in Boston, nor any of the other evidence that has been gathered identifying Atta.

It does not matter whether you understand that or not. It is not pertinent to the positive identification that has already happened. That's not even worth calling an anamoly.

[Dave Rogers]

Seems so

I want to be sure about the facts and the evidence. I would say we share this aim.
. As I see there is no eyewitness except the one girl who checked atta in but did not remember al omari.

And didn't remember three other men of Arabic appearance on the same flight. So, in a job where, quite literally, hundreds of people of all races, creeds and colours pass before her eyes in the course of an average day, you're trying to discredit her testimony on the basis that she had no clear recollection of one of them?

OK, here's a test. Without scrolling back up the thread, list the usernames of everyone whose posts you personally have replied to. If you fail to get all of them, then I can accuse you of sharing your account with someone else who actually responded to those posts, because your failure to recollect everything perfectly indicates that your entire testimony is a lie.

Are you starting to see the problem with insisting that all eyewitness statements are either perfect or irrelevant?

Dave

[paulheinze]

There are no eyewitnesses (at least as to 4 of the hijackers), no security camera (like in portland) at Boston (for all 5). One eyewitness explicitly saw Atta alone.
The only proof is the flight manifests.

So there is no positive ID on 4 of the hijackers.

[BigAl]

There are no eyewitnesses (at least as to 4 of the hijackers), no security camera (like in portland) at Boston (for all 5). One eyewitness explicitly saw Atta alone.
The only proof is the flight manifests.

So there is no positive ID on 4 of the hijackers.

Read Perfect Soldiers by McDermott

[TruthersLie]

Seems so

I want to be sure about the facts and the evidence. I would say we share this aim.
. As I see there is no eyewitness except the one girl who checked atta in but did not remember al omari.

OH poor sparky.

And I say (and so does the rest of the world) that the evidence is rather overwhelming.

I have already laid it out... now if you want to pick pick pick at small inconsequential stuff feel free.. but really trying to play the "hijackers still alive" is rather bs, don'tcha think?

Oh wait, I'm on ignore now.. boo hoo sparky. boo hoo.

try again.

[twinstead]

No no, I think paulheinz should start a brand new thread titled "the hijackers are still alive!", because we've never dealt with that issue and won't know how to respond...;)

[Dave Rogers]

Perhaps Atta went to the toilet, took a little longer than he expected, and had to run to get on the plane, whereas al Omari had had the omelette instead of the curry and as a result wasn't sweating so much.

Maybe he was in the bathroom and showed up separately.

Of course, the fact that we both came up with the same hypothetical explanation will be evidence to truthers that we're NWO shills reading from a common debunker script, not that this is a possible explanation that would be painfully obvious even to an utter moron.

Dave

[MikeW]

The only proof is the flight manifests.
So the boarding cards that I mentioned earlier don't count? What about the DNA matches with hijacker profiles? The matches with a profile from Jarrah's girlfriend's apartment? The fingerprint match? The personal effects? Isn't this evidence, too?

It seems to have convinced the Saudi's, anyway, who've accepted the accuracy of the 15 names for years. Are they now in on the cover-up, as well?

[MarekM]

Of course, the fact that we both came up with the same hypothetical explanation will be evidence to truthers that we're NWO shills reading from a common debunker script, not that this is a possible explanation that would be painfully obvious even to an utter moron.

Dave

I think there is a much more obvious explanation. If they go through security together and one or both appears suspicious, they would both get held up. If they go through security separately, there is a better chance that at least one gets through and still has the opportunity to complete the mission.

Simple really.

It'd be stupid to go through together. Of course, the concept of rational decisions doesn't exist in the truther world.

[MikeW]

But there is the article I linked to above, where the person who made the checkin remembers Atta sweating and coming very late to Flight 11. What I do not understand is, that al omari was with Atta the time before, taking the same plane from Portland. Why did he not show up at the same time as Atta? If she remembered one sweating Arab she certainly would have remembered his comrade.
Why do you assume that just because al-Omari was with Atta in Portland, that he would have stayed with him after that? And what is so useful about that assumption that you'll try to create a new "anomaly" out of it?

Anyway, for your information American Airlines have already said they believe Atta and al-Omari were checked in by different people (see http://911myths.com/images/7/71/Team7_Box18_AAL-QFR-Responses.pdf). Your "anomaly" means nothing at all.

ETA: And for interviews with the checkin folks and some of the screeners, see http://www.scribd.com/doc/13950309/T7-B17-Screeners-911-and-CheckIn-Fdr-FBI-302s-Screener-and-CheckIn-Interviews .

[ElMondoHummus]

Of course, the fact that we both came up with the same hypothetical explanation will be evidence to truthers that we're NWO shills reading from a common debunker script, not that this is a possible explanation that would be painfully obvious even to an utter moron.

Dave

I thought it just meant we both intuitively resort to scatalogical musings at the drop of a hat. But I like your explanation better. :D

[16.5]

There are no eyewitnesses (at least as to 4 of the hijackers), no security camera (like in portland) at Boston (for all 5). One eyewitness explicitly saw Atta alone.
The only proof is the flight manifests.

So there is no positive ID on 4 of the hijackers.

Uh, those two bolded sentences are a non sequitor.

In any event, you have committed the Fallacy of the undistributed middle.

[ElMondoHummus]

There are no eyewitnesses (at least as to 4 of the hijackers)...


This is a misleading way to put it. Staff in the airport do not recall their presence. That is not the same as saying they were not there. Poor recall does not negate their presence. Given that this information is not an outright negation of their presence, and the other evidence places them there, it is only logical to conclude that they were indeed there.

Got it? Bad memory =/= hijackers weren't present. Especially in the presence of positive evidence that they were present.


, no security camera (like in portland) at Boston (for all 5).


And once again, placing them at Portland does place them at Boston. It is up to you to prove that someone else would've intercepted their tickets and ID. And you've not even tried to provide any such proof.


One eyewitness explicitly saw Atta alone.
The only proof is the flight manifests.


First sentence was already explained. It's irrelevant. Seeing Atta board alone and not recalling someone else further in line does not negate the fact that he was there. Especially in the light of the other evidence that exists. All it means is that the staff member does not have perfect recall.

Second sentence: The manifests are very strong proof because they're tied in with the tickets, which are tied in with the ID's and the Portland airport video, which are tied in scads of other evidence, including DNA, that places them in cars found at the airports, hotels in the cities, etc.

Your objection does ot overcome the weight of the evidence. The reason the manifests are so important are not only because they're documentation that they boarded, but also because they're a link in a continuous chain of evidence.


So there is no positive ID on 4 of the hijackers.

Blatantly incorrect. There is; single pieces of evidence are not positive proof. The weight of all of it is. That is the part you fail to understand.

----

ETA: Should've read Mike W's post above:

Anyway, for your information American Airlines have already said they believe Atta and al-Omari were checked in by different people (see http://911myths.com/images/7/71/Team7_Box18_AAL-QFR-Responses.pdf (http://911myths.com/images/7/71/Team7_Box18_AAL-QFR-Responses.pdf)). Your "anomaly" means nothing at all.

ETA: And for interviews with the checkin folks and some of the screeners, see http://www.scribd.com/doc/13950309/T7-B17-Screeners-911-and-CheckIn-Fdr-FBI-302s-Screener-and-CheckIn-Interviews (http://www.scribd.com/doc/13950309/T7-B17-Screeners-911-and-CheckIn-Fdr-FBI-302s-Screener-and-CheckIn-Interviews) .

My bolding above. There's a simple explanation that's very probable and is a simple explanation for Atta supposedly "being alone". It doesn't contradict any of the other evidence, and in fact, is supported by everything else, specifically the flight manifests.

Not every detail of any given event will appear consistent upon reporting, but the important thing to remember when evaluating stories is whether the fundamental details show consistency. This does. Suggesting that Atta was alone or that he never boarded the flight does not. That's why it's ruled out as a possibility.

[twinstead]

paul seems to be one of the many truthers who think all he has to do is chip away at what he considers the 'official story', create irrelevant 'anomalies', expect a level of proof that no investigation like this could EVER have, and like magic POOF--he is able to insert any cockamamie theory he wants. Yea. All that means 911 was an inside job. LOL What's up with that anyway?

I'd like to take this, "The body of evidence to support the commonly-held narrative of that day is huge. It was the largest investigation in US history, performed by thousands people over many months. No narrative has been given that comes even close to being supported by the available evidence better" and shove it up some people's nether regions.

[jhunter1163]

Am not a truther, i just have an uncanny ability to see the obvious

No, you don't, or you wouldn't be a Truther, Truther.

[ElMondoHummus]

Twinstead is right, but to carry things a step further: The fact that there's a mountain of evidence is not as important as the fact that all the individual pieces of evidence supports the others and supports the fundamental thrust of the commonly accepted narrative. As I said above, individual details or aspects in any given story, event, recounting, testimony, etc. will always be open to question and can many times contradict, but the question is whether the pieces of evidence support the fundamental thrust of the narrative. And that's exactly the case with 9/11. The individual pieces of evidence all converge to support what we already know, and also converges in a way that excludes conspiratorial proposals. It takes a study of the evidence interconnectivity as a whole to understand this; constant harping on isolated issues will never suffice to replace our knowledge with the conspiratorial proposals.

[twinstead]

Twinstead is right, but to carry things a step further: The fact that there's a mountain of evidence is not as important as the fact that all the individual pieces of evidence supports the others and supports the fundamental thrust of the commonly accepted narrative. As I said above, individual details or aspects in any given story, event, recounting, testimony, etc. will always be open to question and can many times contradict, but the question is whether the pieces of evidence support the fundamental thrust of the narrative. And that's exactly the case with 9/11. The individual pieces of evidence all converge to support what we already know, and also converges in a way that excludes conspiratorial proposals. It takes a study of the evidence interconnectivity as a whole to understand this; constant harping on isolated issues will never suffice to replace our knowledge with the conspiratorial proposals.

Oh. Suuuure. Say it all sciency and stuff...;)

[ElMondoHummus]

Oh. Suuuure. Say it all sciency and stuff...;)

The word is "eloquent"!! :mad:


;)



:D Wha... windbag? Fussy windbag?? Who said that?!! :mad:

[Macgyver1968]

The word is "eloquent"!! :mad:


;)



:D Wha... windbag? Fussy windbag?? Who said that?!! :mad:

You shore do say stuff pretty like..that thar's that fancy city writin'.

[NutCracker]

Make me smarter. Explain your wonderful piece of work to me. I think I will ignore you again.


Oh, please, stop the comedy. You are acting beyond the pathetic.

[ElMondoHummus]

You shore do say stuff pretty like..that thar's that fancy city writin'.

http://forums.randi.org/picture.php?albumid=157&pictureid=1597

[paulheinze]

Oh, please, stop the comedy. You are acting beyond the pathetic.

I have my difficulties taking you seriously.
If you have contradicting evidence, it is ok by me.
But if you don't
your typical strategy seems to be:
1. not addressing the main point
2. presenting hypothetical explanations
3. construe statements deliberately in a way to make them look ridiculous
4. personal attacks

It happens all the time.
Additionally you try to convince each other of ones superior opinion, abilities, etc.

Definitely the behaviour of some sect.Of course this applies to people from the truth movement, too.

If you were honestly interested in the truth, you would point out inconsistencies in the official explanation yourself.

How many of you have defended the pancaking theory?

[Sabrina]

I have my difficulties taking you seriously.
If you have contradicting evidence, it is ok by me.
But if you don't
your typical strategy seems to be:
1. not addressing the main point
2. presenting hypothetical explanations
3. construe statements deliberately in a way to make them look ridiculous
4. personal attacks

She canna take any muir, Cap'n!! She's gonna blooooowwww!!!!

:id:

[DGM]

There are no eyewitnesses (at least as to 4 of the hijackers), no security camera (like in portland) at Boston (for all 5). One eyewitness explicitly saw Atta alone.
The only proof is the flight manifests.

So there is no positive ID on 4 of the hijackers.
Has it ever dawned on you that the lack of security at Logan (and frankly all US airports pre 9/11) might have been considered when making their plan? I live in Boston (just north of) and I could tell you horror stories about things I routinely got on planes with. How does this point to "inside job"?

ETA. What did the hijackers do that morning (besides the final moments) that was illegal?

[beachnut]

...
How many of you have defended the pancaking theory?
Please explain the pancake theory. What theory do you defend? Hope it is not the moronic explosives or thermite did it nonsense.

Do you have an uncanny ability like the author of the OP to see the obvious and not have any idea what you are talking about; IE you have no evidence?



This was funny...
There are no eyewitnesses (at least as to 4 of the hijackers), no security camera (like in portland) at Boston (for all 5). One eyewitness explicitly saw Atta alone.
The only proof is the flight manifests.

So there is no positive ID on 4 of the hijackers.
Oops! They were ID to fly. Did you ever fly? OOPS, they were ID by the crew before the crew died. OOPS, they were in the Pilot seats and I can prove it. Where have you been for 8 years; these idiots, almost as dumb as 911 truthers, were IDed the first 24 hours. Do you ignore evidence and reality so you can make up your own delusions?

How did you miss 8 years of evidence?

[MIKILLINI]

See? In the context of this thread, my song works better. :D

Now that I've seen more of yours, it does work better. (Win for Sabrina):)

Even though these few lyrics in "Crazy Train" seemed to be as if the writer was hearing twoofer BS:
"I've listened to preachers
I've listened to fools
I've watched all the dropouts
Who make their own rules".
(There's just not as many as there used to be):D

[TruthersLie]

Bump for PaulH.

does this answer your questions sparky? I mean, it only took about 10 minutes of real research to find...

Why do you assume that just because al-Omari was with Atta in Portland, that he would have stayed with him after that? And what is so useful about that assumption that you'll try to create a new "anomaly" out of it?

Anyway, for your information American Airlines have already said they believe Atta and al-Omari were checked in by different people (see http://911myths.com/images/7/71/Team7_Box18_AAL-QFR-Responses.pdf). Your "anomaly" means nothing at all.

ETA: And for interviews with the checkin folks and some of the screeners, see http://www.scribd.com/doc/13950309/T7-B17-Screeners-911-and-CheckIn-Fdr-FBI-302s-Screener-and-CheckIn-Interviews .

[TruthersLie]

blah blah blah

If you were honestly interested in the truth, you would point out inconsistencies in the official explanation yourself.


wowswer scooby. it is amazing. Where can I pick up a copy of this "official explaination." I'd love to have a copy for my bookshelf.


How many of you have defended the pancaking theory?

You really should try to read the NISTreport.. the pancaking did occur, it just wasn't what initiated the collapse. But hey, show those superior investagoogling skills by NOT doing any real research.

try again.

[Dave Rogers]

your typical strategy seems to be:
1. not addressing the main point
2. presenting hypothetical explanations
3. construe statements deliberately in a way to make them look ridiculous
4. personal attacks


Your strategy seems to be:

1. Invent a hypothesis.
2. Claim that no evidence contradicts your hypothesis.
3. When presented with evidence that contradicts your hypothesis, attempt to discredit it.
4. Conveniently ignore the fact that no evidence supports your hypothesis.

You're not investigating facts, you're trying to write unfalsifiable fiction.

Dave

[NutCracker]

I have my difficulties taking you seriously.

Oh, that really hurt.


If you have contradicting evidence, it is ok by me.
But if you don't
your typical strategy seems to be:
1. not addressing the main point
2. presenting hypothetical explanations
3. construe statements deliberately in a way to make them look ridiculous
4. personal attacks


Look, pal, Been there (1), done that. And it has become quite clear to me that the "official story" doubters have got nothing. They have got nothing for 8 years. Them insisting in recycling there nonsense, observing them argue, cough, cough, warrants the conclusion that the TM consists of individuals ranging from the delusional to the moonbat crazy.

You haven't built your case yet. You are not alone in that. Your fellow clowns haven't either. 8 years and they have nothing. C'mon, lay all the relevant evidence on the table and build your case for what you believe happened on 9/11.


It happens all the time.
Additionally you try to convince each other of ones superior opinion, abilities, etc.

Definitely the behaviour of some sect.Of course this applies to people from the truth movement, too.

If you were honestly interested in the truth, you would point out inconsistencies in the official explanation yourself.


Errr... you are "honestly interested in the truth." cough cough. Build your case then. Dig up the facts, resolve puzzels. Then present your conclusions and tell us how you arrived at them. IOW, do some REAL research. This anomaly hunting of yours is just pathetic.

No, you are not "honestly interested in the truth." Your are interested in the "official story" being wrong.

[Justin39640]

Has it ever dawned on you that the lack of security at Logan (and frankly all US airports pre 9/11) might have been considered when making their plan? I live in Boston (just north of) and I could tell you horror stories about things I routinely got on planes with. How does this point to "inside job"?

ETA. What did the hijackers do that morning (besides the final moments) that was illegal?

one time in the early 90s
my friend and i went to Laguardia to pick up his cousin

this was when you could walk up to the gate and wait for someone

we got to the gate and i realized i had gotten through security with a 4" butterfly knife in my pocket (which is illegal by itself)

i forgot i had it on me
and i have no idea how the detector didn't pick it up
but it didn't
either that or the people weren't paying any attention

security sucked pre 9/11
and we paid the price

[twinstead]

We don't have contradicting evidence? Did paulheinz actually say that? Paul, dude, we have TONS of contradicting evidence. You've been shown it over and over and over again, yet you refuse to acknowledge it.

[A W Smith]

one time in the early 90s
my friend and i went to Laguardia to pick up his cousin

this was when you could walk up to the gate and wait for someone

we got to the gate and i realized i had gotten through security with a 4" butterfly knife in my pocket (which is illegal by itself)

i forgot i had it on me
and i have no idea how the detector didn't pick it up
but it didn't
either that or the people weren't paying any attention

security sucked pre 9/11
and we paid the price
Maybe they were Letting Justin Happen On Purpose?:o

[Justin39640]

Maybe they were Letting Justin Happen On Purpose?:o

that was my parents and they paid the price lol

this was LMTWDW
Let Moron Through With Dangerous Weapon

you'd think they'd look a lil closer at a 6'2 guy with long hair in a SLAYER shirt

[Horatius]

We don't have contradicting evidence? Did paulheinz actually say that? Paul, dude, we have TONS of contradicting evidence. You've been shown it over and over and over again, yet you refuse to acknowledge it.



This is the part that annoys me the most. I can accept them disagreeing with what the evidence indicates, I can even accept some of them claiming the evidence is faked, but to claim it doesn't even exist? That's just completely nonsensical.

[tsig]

How many of you have defended the pancaking theory?

If they are thin in height compared to width then heated and subjected to the impact of two tablespoons of butter and four tablespoons of syrup they go down quite easily by peristaltic force.

[Sam.I.Am]

I'm more of a waffle man myself, they hold the syrup better.

[TruthersLie]

wrong quote. please delete

[TruthersLie]

Sorry Paully. I had the wrong quote.
Why did you run away like a little girl afraid of a spider?

Why do you assume that just because al-Omari was with Atta in Portland, that he would have stayed with him after that? And what is so useful about that assumption that you'll try to create a new "anomaly" out of it?

Anyway, for your information American Airlines have already said they believe Atta and al-Omari were checked in by different people (see http://911myths.com/images/7/71/Team7_Box18_AAL-QFR-Responses.pdf). Your "anomaly" means nothing at all.

ETA: And for interviews with the checkin folks and some of the screeners, see http://www.scribd.com/doc/13950309/T7-B17-Screeners-911-and-CheckIn-Fdr-FBI-302s-Screener-and-CheckIn-Interviews .

[Thunder]

I dont see myself as a truther, it is just obvious that the government was complicit in the events of 9/11.

:);):p:D:D:p;):)

funny guy.

[Thunder]

Either you refuse to see the obvious and think for yourself, or you take your wayward patriotic fantasies and protect the very people that allowed this to happen. Remember, the problem is with you, it lies nowhere else.

why do truthers love to use personal attacks so very much?

why do they believe that anyone who disagrees with them is unable to think for themselves and wants to protect the 9-11 perps?

why do truthers complain about personal attacks when they love to do it soo much to those who are not truthers?

[Grizzly Bear]

If they are thin in height compared to width then heated and subjected to the impact of two tablespoons of butter and four tablespoons of syrup they go down quite easily by peristaltic force.

Paulheinze still doesn't understand the difference between collapse initiation and collapse progression. It's amazing such cognitive dissonance continues to persist but I digress...

[fourtoe]

You know se7ensnakes...I think you are a Truther actually.

Call it a hunch.

[triforcharity]

I am not a debunker, I just have the uncanny ability to spot lies in twoofers' posts, and debunk themm with 5 minutes or less of investi-googling.

[KreeL]

I am not a debunker, I just have the uncanny ability to spot lies in twoofers' posts, and debunk themm with 5 minutes or less of investi-googling.

You could spend a little of your free time investi-googling the cams in the boarding lounges at the airports. They were there, so show us Atta sitting there reading a magazine. Simple enough for a super-debunker as yourself.

[twinstead]

You could spend a little of your free time investi-googling the cams in the boarding lounges at the airports. They were there, so show us Atta sitting there reading a magazine. Simple enough for a super-debunker as yourself.

Find a video of ANY of the passengers of the plane, sitting there reading a magazine.

[Hokulele]

You could spend a little of your free time investi-googling the cams in the boarding lounges at the airports. They were there, so show us Atta sitting there reading a magazine. Simple enough for a super-debunker as yourself.


Judging by the articles linked in the thread about Atta's luggage, he didn't have time to sit on the can, much less in a boarding lounge reading a magazine.

[triforcharity]

That, and I highly doubt he would have been sitting around. I bet he got the the airport, and was so nervous, he couldn't sit down for 2 seconds.

[A W Smith]

You could spend a little of your free time investi-googling the cams in the boarding lounges at the airports. They were there, so show us Atta sitting there reading a magazine. Simple enough for a super-debunker as yourself.

show us evidence or testimony claiming Atta was in any airport lounge reading or not reading any magazine.

[twinstead]

Yea, like KreeL and people like him would reconsider their positions for a microsecond even if there WERE images or video of Atta sitting reading a magazine.

[apathoid]

You could spend a little of your free time investi-googling the cams in the boarding lounges at the airports. They were there, so show us Atta sitting there reading a magazine. Simple enough for a super-debunker as yourself.


Lay off the CSI and 24. We have Atta on video the only place there are cameras; the security checkpoint at his originating airport.

[MIKILLINI]

You could spend a little of your free time investi-googling the cams in the boarding lounges at the airports. They were there, so show us Atta sitting there reading a magazine. Simple enough for a super-debunker as yourself.

How do you know Atta was reading a magazine? Got some evidence of this?

ETA; AW, I just read your similar question. You asked it first .