Kirk Cameron: subverting Darwin...

[headscratcher4]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/22/kirk-camerons-origin-of-s_n_294349.html

A novel approach....provide copies of Darwin edited to emphasize the superiority of creationsim and the evil of Darwin ...

[HarryKeogh]

Apparently, lying is okay as long as it's for Jesus.

[Marduk]

I loved it when she said "the various hoaxes of christianity"
she so hot
:D

[fuelair]

This is the same Kirk Cameron who finds bananas to be perfectly designed by dog to fit right up his.........

[ponderingturtle]

And the Crocoduck proves evolution is wrong.

[Pure Argent]

Well, they're going to be distributed at the "top 50" institutions of higher learning - so hopefully the students there will have had a basic logic course and realize that the new introduction is what it is - a huge pile of logical fallacies, particularly ad hominem attacks.

[Wolrab]

She IS freakin' hot. The accent does funny things to me.

I wish I could get a copy. It will probably be a collectors item as many will be defaced or thrown out.
I love the idea of publishing a Bible with a preface by Richard Dawkins.

[Sun Countess]

I'm a hetero woman and even *I* thought that chick was hot.

How can Kirk Cameron or any religious person talk about Darwin's "disdain for women" when they've got a book filled with crap about us, beginning with the idea that menstruation is a sin? And why does he think the rise of atheism is a bad thing? Shouldn't he at least pretend to believe in the idea of freedom to choose one's own religious beliefs, instead of ramming his backwoods breed of Christianity down everyone's throats at taxpayer expense? Sheesh.

I third the notion that Dawkins should write a 50-page intro to the bible and hand them out for free.

[Simon39759]

Wow; ZOMGitscriss is really getting her 15 minutes of fame... Well deserved, it's a very good answer.

The whole project is retarded, of course. But then, Comfort and Cameron, what would you expect?

[MG1962]

I wonder what the copyright ramifications of rewriting Darwins book might be. Does anyone know if it is now public domain, or does someone still hold the rights

[Beerina]

I loved it when she said "the various hoaxes of christianity"
she so hot
:D

She IS freakin' hot. The accent does funny things to me.


For those who don't click the link, they're talking about YouTuber ZOMGitsCriss, not Ariana.

Buried deep in some backwater of Eastern Europe, this young genius has made a name for herself thanks to modern communications. Her channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/ZOMGitsCriss) is right next to Pat Condell's (http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell) in my favs list.

[ponderingturtle]

I wonder what the copyright ramifications of rewriting Darwins book might be. Does anyone know if it is now public domain, or does someone still hold the rights

I can't immagine that it is still in copyright. It is a 140 years old.

[Mojo]

I wonder what the copyright ramifications of rewriting Darwins book might be. Does anyone know if it is now public domain, or does someone still hold the rights


The author has been dead for over 70 years, so it is presumably public domain.

[Sun Countess]

Kirk Cameron says that Ray Comfort found out it (Origin of Species) was in the public domain. I imagine he only had to hear that once before he accepted the truth of that statement.......

[seayakin]

Definitely in the public domain. Cornell has a very good chart for determining this (for US copyright in any case)

http://www.copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm

[Pardalis]

"Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"

my ass.

[bokonon]

The Origin of Species is clearly public domain, in any of its original editions. Most publishers who print public domain books add an introduction which is copyrightable, so Comfort's book itself will not be public domain.

The King James version of the Bible is public domain, and anyone who wanted to print a copy with an introduction they wrote themselves would be free to do so. Many new translations and paraphrased versions of the Bible are not public domain, but that one would be safe.

I've just read Comfort's introduction to Origin of the Species, and it's the usual laughable quote mining and repetition of arguments which have been bankrupt for years. He lists several evolutionary hoaxes, as though the science which discovered that they were hoaxes is inadequate for doing anything else. He repeats the "eye is an example of irreducible complexity" argument. He follows one quote from Darwin with a dozen quotes from Mein Kampf, seemingly oblivious to the fact that the Darwin quote is incompatible with the Hitler quotes. He stupidly cites Dawkins' speculation about a possible extraterrestrial ORIGIN OF LIFE ON EARTH as an example of Dawkins' theory on the ORIGIN OF THE UNIVERSE. He repeats the canard that no transitional species exist in the fossil record, without mentioning Tiktaalik.

It wouldn't be difficult to provide a 50-page introduction to the Bible which would "refute" it a lot more soundly than this hack job will "refute" Darwin.

[Mojo]

"Do not bear false witness against your neighbor"

my ass.


What about your neighbour's ass (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2020:17&version=KJV)?

[Marduk]

The author has been dead for over 70 years, so it is presumably public domain.

hes even been dead for over 120 years too
:p

[Marduk]

He repeats the canard that no transitional species exist in the fossil record, without mentioning Tiktaalik.



or indeed without pointing out that all fossils except those of animals that immediately became extinct after they were fossilised are transitional fossils
:p

[headscratcher4]

Kirk Cameron: now there's a transitional fossil.

[HeyLeroy]

Dear God, can You please rapture Kirk Cameron sometime in the very near future?

kthnxbye!

[qayak]

Kirk Cameron: now there's a transitional fossil.

What are you trying to say? Kirk Cameron is the missing link between bad actor and mentally challenged, religous crackpot?

Actually, that makes complete sense and is supported by an overwhelming body of evidence! :cool:

[qayak]

Dear God, can You please rapture rupture Kirk Cameron sometime in the very near future?

kthnxbye!

Fixed that for ya!

[jimtron]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmHN3JtyUXg

I'm on the next train to Romania.

[quarky]

That chick was hot. I could barely pay attention. I think I love her.

[paximperium]

When you can't argue against facts, make up your own.

[six7s]

When you can't argue against facts, make up your own.And when you can't make up your own 'facts', plagiarise myths and legends from other cults.

[godless dave]

Apparently, lying is okay as long as it's for Jesus.

Martin Luther said something to that effect, but I can't seem to find the quote online.

[Derwoods]

Someone needs to get a copy and prepare an easy to print out a Dummies Guide to debunking all the silliness so that skeptic groups can hand them out at the same schools.

[patchbunny]

Ok, I"m just gonna pop in and see what all the fuss is about.

*homminahomminahommina*

:eye-poppi:jaw-dropp:blush:

Why... yes. I do agree that she is attractive.

[patchbunny]

I'm not clear on what's going on with the book. Are they just including the asinine introduction, or are they editing the text as well?

[whatnot]

I really want a copy of this book. I'll keep it with my hard cover edition of OJ's "I Want to Tell You." And I notice that Amazon now sells Kim Jong Il's "On the Art of Cinema." (hint hint...)

[Jonnyclueless]

I wonder if the 50 page intro mentions how the human hand is so perfectly shaped to fit the penis. Irreducible complexity.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Dang, I want one of those books. :D

I really liked the video (http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/09/kirk_vs_cristina.php). Totally excellent.

[Kahalachan]

I'm a hetero woman and even *I* thought that chick was hot.



This is making me click that link. I'll edit this with more on the subject.

Edit:

No I don't have anything to add. Cameron is a retard and we all know this. It was just fun seeing a hot Romanian blonde girl reiterate this for us.

[KarlG]

Kirk Cameron: now there's a transitional fossil.


Nah, he's more like a coprolite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coprolite) :)

[headscratcher4]

Martin Luther said something to that effect, but I can't seem to find the quote online.


The NeoCon Irving Kristol embraced ID back in the 90s, and...like Luther...was not above a "noble" lie to keep the masses in line:

"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work." -- Irving Kristol

What is amusing here, to me, is these bafoons trying to impose the lie on the highly educated...

[qayak]

What is amusing here, to me, is these bafoons trying to impose the lie on the highly educated...

Ironically, they think they are the higher educated people when in fact they are somewhere, quite far really, below children.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Anyone know if there's a page about this on the TO Archive yet? (or basically anywhere that isn't a blog or youtube vid)

[Achán hiNidráne]

The NeoCon Irving Kristol embraced ID back in the 90s, and...like Luther...was not above a "noble" lie to keep the masses in line:

"There are different kinds of truths for different kinds of people. There are truths appropriate for children; truths that are appropriate for students; truths that are appropriate for educated adults; and truths that are appropriate for highly educated adults, and the notion that there should be one set of truths available to everyone is a modern democratic fallacy. It doesn't work." -- Irving Kristol

I've often heard, even from some atheists, that the "stupid" people need religion to help keep them in line-even if it's all bunkum. Personally, I find such an opinion to be horrifically cynical at best and hopelessly totalitarian at worst.

What is amusing here, to me, is these bafoons trying to impose the lie on the highly educated...

I don't think that the current strategy is to subvert academia, at least not directly. Yes, they've got their court intellectuals like Behe and Dembski, but right now Creationism/ID is a framing itself as populist movement that pits the "faith" and "common sense" of the folksy, all-American, god-fearing, church-goer against the "godless, leftist, academic elites" with their scientific jargon and "ivory towers." You'll note just that nearly all the Creationism/Evolution battles have taken place on the local level where grassroots fundy activism has a better chance of succeeding rather than in the halls of higher education where you usually have to show your work before they change the curriculum.

[six7s]

I've often heard, even from some atheists, that the "stupid" people need religion to help keep them in line-even if it's all bunkum. Personally, I find such an opinion to be horrifically cynical at best and hopelessly totalitarian at worst.I don't

Note that such a comment does NOT imply that ALL religious people are stupid...

And... its obvious that MANY stupid people DO use religion as both a whip and a crutch

[deBergerac]

Now I must say that when I first heard about this couple and saw their banana argument video on youtube, I only though of them as two crazy creationists. But now with this new project I begin to see... dare I say... Intelligent Design behind their actions.

First they show the world what must be the most stupid argument ever for creationism and thus became heroes for the deluded while every sane person became more convinced that creationists are insane.

And now this!
They are raising money from creationists to print copies of Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" next to 50 pages of creationist and conspiracy theories and they are handing them out to supposedly fairly intelligent critical thinking people to compare.

With enemies like this we need no friends!

Either they are just stupid and think that people will not be able to tell the difference between what is a scientific theory and what is fantasy or... they are undercover sceptics using the creationists own funds to fight against them.

[six7s]

With enemies like this we need no friends!Poe's Law in action!

rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe's_Law (http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Poe%27s_Law)
Poe's Law makes the clear point that it is hard to tell parodies of fundamentalism (http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Fundamentalism) from the real thing, since they both seem equally insane. Poe's law also functions in its converse: real fundamentalism can easily be mistaken for a parody of fundamentalism. For example, some conservatives consider noted homophobe Fred Phelps (http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Fred_Phelps) to be so over-the-top that they argue he's a "deep cover liberal (http://rationalwiki.com/wiki/Deep_cover_liberal)" trying to discredit more mainstream homophobes.

[vIQleS]

I'm a hetero woman and even *I* thought that chick was hot.

How can Kirk Cameron or any religious person talk about Darwin's "disdain for women" when they've got a book filled with crap about us, beginning with the idea that menstruation is a sin? And why does he think the rise of atheism is a bad thing? Shouldn't he at least pretend to believe in the idea of freedom to choose one's own religious beliefs, instead of ramming his backwoods breed of Christianity down everyone's throats at taxpayer expense? Sheesh.


Actually I think you'll find that it begins with the idea that all the pain and evil in the world is a direct result of a woman not being able to keep her head down and do what she's told... (They kind of have a point there mind you... :D)

ETA: About women not doing what they're told I mean - I don't think women are responsible for all the pain and suffering in the world. Only most of it. :p

[Pure Argent]

I heard that several chapters had been omitted. Is this true?

[shadron]

I'm not clear on what's going on with the book. Are they just including the asinine introduction, or are they editing the text as well?

I can't imagine the two of them together could possibly edit Darwin's book. It would involve as lot of "Ign ore what was in the preceding paragraph - you don't really believe all that about Finches, do you?"

To do a job that undermines all of Darwin's proof would require superhuman lying/writing skills, or a really didactic approach: I observed... No, he didn't. That shows that... No, the Bible says...". That would have taken time, which they didn't have. I imagine that the 50 page Appendix was added. It's not beyond possibility that they may have removed parts that they couldn't remotely confuddle. If they did harm to anything of Darwin directly, then I'm sure they will get a pasting in the next couple of months that will make the banana episode seem solemn.

[shadron]

Well, anyway, I've got a good razor blade if anyone wants a copy of Darwin and needs the TP.

[Pure Argent]

Well, I said it on YouTube, I'll say it here.

Anyone, if you see these books being handed out, save them. Don't destroy them. Consider them a collector's item; one of the pinnacles of creationist idiocy and underhanded evil. Keep them as a reminder of what you are fighting against.

[HeyLeroy]

Dear God, can You please rapture rupture Kirk Cameron sometime in the very near future?

kthnxbye!Fixed that for ya!

:D Thnx!

Someone needs to get a copy and prepare an easy to print out a Dummies Guide to debunking all the silliness so that skeptic groups can hand them out at the same schools.

It appears that Bananaman has taken down the link to his introduction; http://assets.livingwaters.com/pdf/OriginofSpecies.pdf comes back as 404.

With my vastly superior Google-fu I've found it archived: http://c0122981.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/090917BananaManIntro.pdf

[Derwoods]

:D Thnx!



It appears that Bananaman has taken down the link to his introduction; http://assets.livingwaters.com/pdf/OriginofSpecies.pdf comes back as 404.

With my vastly superior Google-fu I've found it archived: http://c0122981.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/090917BananaManIntro.pdf

good work.. it is good to have it available but what a freakin painful read. I suppose copyright law would prevent taking the file and adding annotations and redistributing it. This could be a really nice neat way to debunk all the creationist nonsense in one go using their own publicity machine against them.

[Olowkow]

Originally Posted by HeyLeroy http://forums.randi.org/helloworld2/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?p=5131398#post5131398)
Dear God, can You please rapture rupture Kirk Cameron sometime in the very near future?

kthnxbye!

Trussed in god!!!!

[HeyLeroy]

Trussed in god!!!!

:D

I just realized I should msg the young lady who made the response video and let her know about the updated link.

And ask her to marry me.

ETA: Again.

[bokonon]

I wonder which 50 "top universities" they're targeting?

According to U.S. News and World Report, Cal Tech and M.I.T. are solidly in the top ten. Are they really going to distribute 2000 books to random students on these two campuses expecting to find people who can be convinced that creationism is credible?

Frankly, I suspect that this is more a plea for fundie funding than a real project going to real campuses with real books.

ETA: Bananaman's Link (http://assets.livingwaters.com/pdf/OriginofSpecies.pdf) still works for me. The 404 may have been a temporary problem; I can't see any difference in the version I downloaded earlier and the version available now. Both files are the same size.

[normdoering]

... Her channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/ZOMGitsCriss) is right next to Pat Condell's (http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell) in my favs list.

You mean subscribed to list I think. I'm subscribed to both Zom and Pat also.

My channel is here (http://www.youtube.com/user/zarkoff45), do you have anything interesting on yours?

[VespaGuy]

Comfort and Cameron are two of the biggest "liars for religion" that exist today. And that's saying a lot!

I just took a quick peek at the introduction. On page 9, Comfort includes an excerpt that compares DNA to a book. He then goes on to call this a "gross understatement". However if you take a look at the footnote, the description is taken from something called "Kids Genetics"! That's right! Comfort attacks a description written for children and calls it a gross understatement! How more dishonest can a person get?

[HeyLeroy]

ETA: Bananaman's Link (http://assets.livingwaters.com/pdf/OriginofSpecies.pdf) still works for me. The 404 may have been a temporary problem; I can't see any difference in the version I downloaded earlier and the version available now. Both files are the same size.

Hmm, they must've put it back up. After I facebooked it, several people mentioned to me that the link had gone dead.

[VespaGuy]

I wonder which 50 "top universities" they're targeting?

According to the Living Waters website:

We want Christians around the country to do what we are doing at Berkeley on Nov. 24th--to give out 1,000 copies in each one of those top 50 universities. Imagine, 50,000 copies of these books suddenly flooding major learning institutions in one day!
When we get teams who commit to do a university, we will mark that particular one on www.OriginIntoSchools.com as being "covered," until we have all 50 covered, along with contact details of how to get involved with each group.

At the moment, the OriginIntoSchools website only redirects back to Living Waters. My guess, is that these "Top 50" schools will be more like "The first 50 schools that we can find someone to distribute books at".

[VespaGuy]

One more blurb from Living Waters:

The first print of the book arrived on Friday. In more than 30 years of ministry, we have never had so much trouble with delivery. Amazingly, five different freight companies let us down. We therefore had to delay our email Update about the arrival of the books.

When the shipment came, our fork-lift broke down as we wheeled it towards the truck (which had never happened before). When we tried to send out an Update saying the books had finally arrived, our website crashed and was down for an unprecedented 30 hours.

This is the best proof of an intelligent God that Comfort has ever produced.

[ToddH]

Dear ZOMGitsCriss,

I love you.

:p

[pnerd]

With my vastly superior Google-fu I've found it archived: http://c0122981.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/090917BananaManIntro.pdf
Thanks a lot, HeyLeroy.

And I have to say that ZOMGitsCriss has a very cute accent. :)

[Hux]

This kind of thing boils my piss.

Suppose someone could be really arsed to publish a Bible with a forward that said that anyone who believed this is a frigging moron? That you have to have only two neurons to read this (and its okay if they work independently) it's all crap and doesn't amke any sense except to an oxygen starved cretin?

Can you imagine who'd be the first to run screaming to the publishers? Of course, i take great pride in the fact that no one with an ounce of reality or sense would bother themselves to do it.

Cameron and his Ilk must be sh*tting themselves. Who else would attempt to repudiate something they clearly do not understand?

I can imagine the calibre of the Universities that will accept this crap and take comfort from those who will politely tell Cameron to put it where he keeps his bananas.

[Simon39759]

Well; it's not like the origin of species is the 'Atheist Bible', so the comparison is silly.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the general idea, book get preface all the time to put them into the historical and cultural context they were written in.
The problem, of course, is with the absolute dishonesty of the assay of course, which aims less at illuminating the work than distort it.

I am also concerned about the trimming? What did they leave out? I can imagine them actually leaving out all the evidence or the context around the most apparently racist paragraphs.
Can anyone confirm on that?

[Moochie]

A man who can wield a banana so deftly must have something going for him, in my opinion. Banana-wrangler extraordinaire!


M.

[Moochie]

Now I must say that when I first heard about this couple and saw their banana argument video on youtube, I only though of them as two crazy creationists. But now with this new project I begin to see... dare I say... Intelligent Design behind their actions.

First they show the world what must be the most stupid argument ever for creationism and thus became heroes for the deluded while every sane person became more convinced that creationists are insane.

And now this!
They are raising money from creationists to print copies of Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" next to 50 pages of creationist and conspiracy theories and they are handing them out to supposedly fairly intelligent critical thinking people to compare.

With enemies like this we need no friends!

Either they are just stupid and think that people will not be able to tell the difference between what is a scientific theory and what is fantasy or... they are undercover sceptics using the creationists own funds to fight against them.

The banana video would have been right at home on Monty Python's Flying Circus, methinks.

ETA: This should have been a response to six7s's post. Good going there, mate! :)



M.

[Moochie]

:D Thnx!



It appears that Bananaman has taken down the link to his introduction; http://assets.livingwaters.com/pdf/OriginofSpecies.pdf comes back as 404.

With my vastly superior Google-fu I've found it archived: http://c0122981.cdn.cloudfiles.rackspacecloud.com/090917BananaManIntro.pdf

Thanks for that -- this is a file to treasure for the rest of my evolving life. :)


M.