Cointelpro created the LA gangs

[Eddie Dane]

Or so it is claimed in the documentary Why We Bang about the Crips and the Bloods.

It mostly goes into gang culture, but also gives a short historical introduction in which the following is claimed:

The FBI infiltrated the Black Panthers and effectively destroyed the party from within.
Many former members set up new organizations. But these were without the political goals and discipline (gangs).
The FBI introduced crack into the black neighborhoods.
The FBI introduced automatic weapons into black neighborhoods (this is implied, not stated).


Now, I think that most of this is shifting the blame.
I actually saw a guy in one interview claim: they are bringing guns in so that we kill each other. 'It must come from outside, there are no Uzi factories in South Central'.
But look at all the stupid and immoral stuff that went on under Cointelpro. And the FBI's infiltration of Marcus Garvey's organization decades earlier.
I suspect there is a grain of truth in the claims.

My question: what is this grain of truth?

[Ysidro]

I thought it was the CIA that brought cocaine into the country and local "entrepeneurs" who turned it into crack on their own.

As to the other statements, I have no knowledge or firm opinion except that the FBI most likely did infiltrate the Black Panthers.

[dudalb]

The FBI did inflitrate the Black Panthers, and considering the violent rhetoric they were losing , they had legititmate reasons for doing so,just as they did the KKK at the same time.
But the whole The FBI created the LA Gangs theory is just crap.
U

[Sunray Breaker]

I have always been curious about this. I do recall hearing about the Bloods and Crips being an off shoot from the Black Panthers...Something about one set of Black Panthers wanting to use legit means of funding their gangs and one set willing to sell drugs, steal and murder...I could be wrong about this though, as it's just one of those rumors floating around.

As far as Co Intel Pro, they did infiltrate tons of activist groups during that time, the Black Panthers included. They also spied on Women's Lib groups, Civil Rights Groups and various anti-war activists.

[Shrike]

As far as Co Intel Pro, they did infiltrate tons of activist groups during that time,

GIves a whole new meaning to Intel inside, doesn't it?

[Eddie Dane]

The FBI did inflitrate the Black Panthers, and considering the violent rhetoric they were losing , they had legititmate reasons for doing so,just as they did the KKK at the same time.
But the whole The FBI created the LA Gangs theory is just crap.
U

"Create" is probably a stretch. But there are many instances where secret services hamper or destroy political organizations, only to lead to the creation of more radical or nihilistic offshoots.

Note how we tend to think of Fatah as a reasonably acceptable "peace partner" now that we have to deal with Hamas.

The establishment thought MLK was a radical until the got to listen to some Malcolm X speeches.

They did infiltrate peaceful anti-Vietnam demonstrations and provoke violence to discredit the movement. I don't know if they did something similar within the Black Panther Party.

I agree with you that in the case of the Black Panthers they had every reason to infiltrate. And I doubt that the Panthers needed outside influences to fall apart.

[Drudgewire]

I think it was one of my Feral House books that had the "secret documents" showing the "proof" right down to the loose-fitting gang clothing as uniforms for urban warfare.

Man I miss my gullible youth sometimes. :o

[Myron Proudfoot]

Yeah, if there was one thing Hoover's FBI wanted, it was a bunch of angry black men with guns!!!

[Eddie Dane]

Yeah, if there was one thing Hoover's FBI wanted, it was a bunch of angry black men with guns!!!

I think the assault weapons only made it on the scene after competition over crack dealing became important. So that would be, mid eighties?

By that time even Hoover was out of power and probably didn't fit his favorite dress anymore.

[JoeyDonuts]

Poverty + Segregation + Access to Narcotics = ???

I don't think the FBI needed to set up anything. Formation of violent criminal organizations can be a natural and expected offshoot of the above.

[Rogue1stclass]

No, the Uzi factories are in Israel.

Holy crap! It's the Jews!

[sleeplessdwarf]

Don't forget La Raza! Jones is very big on insisting they are run by the NWO.

[Eddie Dane]

No, the Uzi factories are in Israel.

Holy crap! It's the Jews!

I was wondering if that gangster was implying just that.
' The damn Jews made me shoot my neighbor!'

[cwalner]

Poverty + Segregation + Access to Narcotics = ???

I don't think the FBI needed to set up anything. Formation of violent criminal organizations can be a natural and expected offshoot of the above.

Exactly,

I have not heard anybody stating that the FBI created the Capone or Lansky gangs in the 20's. They arose out of the formula quoted by Joey above with the slight modification of replacing Alcohol with Narcotics. Being as alcohol was illegal at the time it was not much different from modern narcotics anyway (at least as far as the formula is concerned).

It is not a coincidince that the gangs of the 20's and 30's were comprised mostly of newly immigrated minorities (Italians, Irish and Jews), who lived in the poorer sections of urban areas and were segregated from the rest of society. Even today most active gang activity comes from the newly-imigrated groups such as Asians, Latinos and eastern Europeans.

Blacks are the exception to this part of the pattern, but a history of racism has left them in the same socio-econimic strata of society as newly immigrated groups, so it is not suprising that the same forces that entice young people from immigrant communities into gangs also entices young black people.

[Rogue1stclass]

I was wondering if that gangster was implying just that.
' The damn Jews made me shoot my neighbor!'

I'd honestly be surprised if he meant actual UZIs or knew they came from Israel. The idea that gangbangers would favor something as bulky and expensive as an UZI is pretty much fiction. From my (admittedly limited) experience, they tend to prefer small and cheap "throwaway" guns made by companies like Lorcin and Jennings.

Which, incidentally, at least until recently, were made in and around LA.

[Eddie Dane]

I'd honestly be surprised if he meant actual UZIs or knew they came from Israel. The idea that gangbangers would favor something as bulky and expensive as an UZI is pretty much fiction. From my (admittedly limited) experience, they tend to prefer small and cheap "throwaway" guns made by companies like Lorcin and Jennings.

Which, incidentally, at least until recently, were made in and around LA.

I once read that young US males can identify a great number of guns, just from the silhouette. However, Gangbangers live their lives within the radius of the territory they control and probably aren't readers.

I bet they can tell an AK from a MAC-10, though.

[Eddie Dane]

As an aside:

I read Sagan's and Dryan'sShadows Of Forgotten Ancestors (http://www.amazon.com/Shadows-Forgotten-Ancestors-Carl-Sagan/dp/0345384725/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253866668&sr=8-1-catcorr). It deals with the evolutionary roots of human behaviour. He writes extensively about primates and Chimpanzees in particular.

I came away with the idea that gangs are the most natural and basic form of humans social organisation. Sagan goes as far as saying that once humans are in a gang or in jail, they basically act like chimpanzees.


Strong hierarchy within the group, established trough violence.
Alpha males lay sexual claim to females within the group.
Females within the group grant sexual favours to alpha males for protection and status.
Constant territorial war with nearby groups.
Constant testing of nearby groups through skirmishes.


There's even a chapter called Gangland, written from the perspective of a "gang member". Only at the end do you realise she is actually a chimp.

[AWPrime]

That sounds like a very interesting book.

[Eddie Dane]

That sounds like a very interesting book.

It rocks.

[Jontg]

People calling each other racists in three...

[Rogue1stclass]

I once read that young US males can identify a great number of guns, just from the silhouette. However, Gangbangers live their lives within the radius of the territory they control and probably aren't readers.

I bet they can tell an AK from a MAC-10, though.

I meant more that he was speaking metaphorically than refering to actual UZIs, which he may not know come from Israel. That said, I couldn't help making the "It's the Jews" joke.

[zaphod2016]

By that time [mid eighties] even Hoover was out of power and probably didn't fit his favorite dress anymore.

Poor ole' Edgar died in '72.

At least, that's what they would have you believe.

Great thread. I wish I had something useful to contribute, but I don't.

[Juniversal]

As an aside:

I read Sagan's and Dryan'sShadows Of Forgotten Ancestors (http://www.amazon.com/Shadows-Forgotten-Ancestors-Carl-Sagan/dp/0345384725/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253866668&sr=8-1-catcorr). It deals with the evolutionary roots of human behaviour. He writes extensively about primates and Chimpanzees in particular.

I came away with the idea that gangs are the most natural and basic form of humans social organisation. Sagan goes as far as saying that once humans are in a gang or in jail, they basically act like chimpanzees.


Strong hierarchy within the group, established trough violence.
Alpha males lay sexual claim to females within the group.
Females within the group grant sexual favours to alpha males for protection and status.
Constant territorial war with nearby groups.
Constant testing of nearby groups through skirmishes.


There's even a chapter called Gangland, written from the perspective of a "gang member". Only at the end do you realise she is actually a chimp.Sounds like an intersting read (although the last two sentences are spoilers ;)). I always felt myself that gangs really exposed our primitive (violent, territorial) nature. Human beings are tribal/social by nature and gangs are just an unfortunate consequence of our nature.

[JHawke]

As an aside:

I read Sagan's and Dryan'sShadows Of Forgotten Ancestors (http://www.amazon.com/Shadows-Forgotten-Ancestors-Carl-Sagan/dp/0345384725/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253866668&sr=8-1-catcorr). It deals with the evolutionary roots of human behaviour. He writes extensively about primates and Chimpanzees in particular.

I came away with the idea that gangs are the most natural and basic form of humans social organisation. Sagan goes as far as saying that once humans are in a gang or in jail, they basically act like chimpanzees.


Strong hierarchy within the group, established trough violence.
Alpha males lay sexual claim to females within the group.
Females within the group grant sexual favours to alpha males for protection and status.
Constant territorial war with nearby groups.
Constant testing of nearby groups through skirmishes.


There's even a chapter called Gangland, written from the perspective of a "gang member". Only at the end do you realise she is actually a chimp.

I have no real expertise in this area, though I know a little bit about gangs.
But it sure does sound like the book is spot on with the comparison..
No matter what, you really can't deny this is how gangs act. (White, black, yellow or red gangs - it doesn't matter)
And again, I'm no expert, but chimps act pretty much exactly like that too as far as I know.

Very interesting (off)topic! I should buy this book

[MaGZ]

Or so it is claimed in the documentary Why We Bang about the Crips and the Bloods.


It mostly goes into gang culture, but also gives a short historical introduction in which the following is claimed:

The FBI infiltrated the Black Panthers and effectively destroyed the party from within.
Many former members set up new organizations. But these were without the political goals and discipline (gangs).
The FBI introduced crack into the black neighborhoods.
The FBI introduced automatic weapons into black neighborhoods (this is implied, not stated).

Now, I think that most of this is shifting the blame.
I actually saw a guy in one interview claim: they are bringing guns in so that we kill each other. 'It must come from outside, there are no Uzi factories in South Central'.
But look at all the stupid and immoral stuff that went on under Cointelpro. And the FBI's infiltration of Marcus Garvey's organization decades earlier.
I suspect there is a grain of truth in the claims.

My question: what is this grain of truth?

The grain of truth is the FBI waged war on the Black Panthers by assassinating their leaders.

[MaGZ]

Yeah, if there was one thing Hoover's FBI wanted, it was a bunch of angry black men with guns!!!

I always suspected there was a Black Hand in the FBI/CIA national security establishment.

They got MLK, Malcolm X, George Lincoln Rockwell and George Wallace (attempted).

[drkitten]

The grain of truth is the FBI waged war on the Black Panthers by assassinating their leaders.

Really? Which leaders were these?

Bobby Seale is still alive.
Huey Newton was killed in 1989 by a drug dealer.
Melvin Newton is still alive.
Stokely Carmichael died in 1998 of cancer.
Eldridge Cleaver died in hospital of 1998 (cause not revealed).

If they were assassinating BPP leaders, they did a lousy job of it.

[Moss]

Shifting the blame is one important aspect of this whole myth, I think another important thing is the reinforcement of the group spirit. It allows the gangs to lay claim to being among the successors of the Black Panthers as origin story, it enforces the "us against them" feeling both inside the gangs and inside the whole gang subculture (being done tremendous wrongs, fighting against The Man) and offers a simple black and white worldview on who is good and who is evil. (Pun not intended)
What makes this really interesting is the fact that if this interpretation were to be right, the gangs are following the plan set by the CIA to the letter despite the negative results for themselves.

[gnome]

I think gangs start in urban poor areas for simple and clear reasons:

1. Seeking family and fellowship that is not offered in the home.
2. Seeking mutual prosperity in the face of poverty conditions.
3. Granting a feeling of power that is otherwise unavailable.

Unfortunately gangs generally do so by methods that are harmful, criminal, and violent. But they seem a natural result of the conditions.

[JoeyDonuts]

The problem is, that explanation - while following Occam's Razor - doesn't slake the thirst of those who just KNOW that COINTELPRO must have done this, since they did other things, man.

[carmenjonze]

I came away with the idea that gangs are the most natural and basic form of humans social organisation. Sagan goes as far as saying that once humans are in a gang or in jail, they basically act like chimpanzees.


Strong hierarchy within the group, established trough violence.
Alpha males lay sexual claim to females within the group.
Females within the group grant sexual favours to alpha males for protection and status.
Constant territorial war with nearby groups.
Constant testing of nearby groups through skirmishes.


There's even a chapter called Gangland, written from the perspective of a "gang member". Only at the end do you realise she is actually a chimp.

Sounds more like the history of the Mormons.

Or colonial Europe.

[Foolmewunz]

Sounds more like the history of the Mormons.

Or colonial Europe.

<snork>

[MaGZ]

Really? Which leaders were these?

Bobby Seale is still alive.
Huey Newton was killed in 1989 by a drug dealer.
Melvin Newton is still alive.
Stokely Carmichael died in 1998 of cancer.
Eldridge Cleaver died in hospital of 1998 (cause not revealed).

If they were assassinating BPP leaders, they did a lousy job of it.

Here
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/4/the_assassination_of_fred_hampton_how

[gnome]

I don't think anyone is arguing that the FBI wouldn't do wrong, but I don't feel it's established that they did in the case of LA gangs. It did not require outside agitation.

Now, though, while we're studying motives of law enforcement, while I'm not thinking of them as virtuous, I tend to think they believed they were serving the cause of law and order by stopping potential revolutionaries, and just didn't mind committing crimes or murder to do so. On the other hand I'm expected to believe that the police somehow WANTED gang violence to occur. To believe that you'd have to see them as cartoonishly seeking it just because it was evil, and not because it did anything beneficial for them.

[drkitten]

Here
http://www.democracynow.org/2009/12/4/the_assassination_of_fred_hampton_how

I see. So now Fred Hampton is "Black Panther Leaders"?

Has he always been plural, or only since their deaths?

[JHawke]

I see. So now Fred Hampton is "Black Panther Leaders"?

Has he always been plural, or only since their deaths?

You should at least watch the link / read the transcript before commenting. I count two:


On December 4th, 1969, Chicago police raided Fred Hampton’s apartment and shot and killed him in his bed. He was just twenty-one years old. Black Panther leader Mark Clark was also killed in the raid.

[drkitten]

You should at least watch the link / read the transcript before commenting. I count two:

Still waiting for any evidence of a policy of "assassination" instead of a single botched raid.

[JHawke]

Still waiting for any evidence of a policy of "assassination" instead of a single botched raid.

Sure, me too.. But your post seemed like you didn't even watch/read the link and just made a quick "this is woo" response.
(It is probably woo, I don't know anything about BPP, but still..)

[gnome]

Still waiting for any evidence of a policy of "assassination" instead of a single botched raid.

I think "botched" is probably something of a distortion. This case might be one of the true ugly ones. I've read up a little and could not find much of a defense for the police/FBI in that case.