Holocaust how many non jewish victims

[NWO Sentryman]

This is not to denigrate the memory of the millions of jews who were murdered, but apart from the 7 million Jews, how many were murdered in the holocaust, under Generalplan ost and the non-newish victims in the Death camps?

[McHrozni]

This is not to denigrate the memory of the millions of jews who were murdered, but apart from the 7 million Jews, how many were murdered in the holocaust, under Generalplan ost and the non-newish victims in the Death camps?

In all, about the same number as Jews. True number may never be known.

McHrozni

[Simon39759]

While the exact numbers will never be known, and while there is some debate about who to include, it is estimated that the total number of victims is somewhere between 11 and 17 millions, with the number of Jewish victims around 6 millions.

I generally go for 12 millions total victims of the deportation policy with roughly half, or 6 millions, of them being Jewish.
It is as good an estimate as any.

[Skeptic]

This is not to denigrate the memory of the millions of jews who were murdered, but apart from the 7 million Jews, how many were murdered in the holocaust, under Generalplan ost and the non-newish victims in the Death camps?

www.nizkor.org has the best estimate we have -- it is dedicated to the "12 million" victims (6 million Jews, 6 million non-Jews).

[Dancing David]

While the exact numbers will never be known, and while there is some debate about who to include, it is estimated that the total number of victims is somewhere between 11 and 17 millions, with the number of Jewish victims around 6 millions.

I generally go for 12 millions total victims of the deportation policy with roughly half, or 6 millions, of them being Jewish.
It is as good an estimate as any.

13 million is a common figure, but as well 15-20% of the residents of Poland were killed as well.

[Praktik]

I've been pimping this article on the board but it is essential reading for those who may have missed my earlier links to it:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22875

[Dancing David]

http://www.holocaustforgotten.com/

But what about "the others"? There were five million of them. Who were they? Whose children, whose mothers and fathers were they? How could five million human beings have been killed and forgotten?

After studying carefully-documented books, and interviewing non-Jewish survivors, I found more information about the five million forgotten than I had ever imagined -- information that most people are not aware of. Polish citizens suffered enormously during the Holocaust -- Jews and non-Jews.

Eleven million precious lives were lost during the Holocaust of World War II. Six million of these were Polish citizens. Half of these Polish citizens were non-Jews



Casualties of civilians WWII
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Poland 16.1% to 16.7%: 8,620,000
Soviet Union 14.18% :~25,000,000
Lituania 13.71% : 500,000
Latvia 11.38% :~300,000
Greece 11.17% :880,000
Germany 7.8% to 9.4 % :~6,500,000

Then we go to the other side of eurasia

China 1.93% to 3.86% : 10,000,000-20,000,000
Japan 3.78% :2,700,000
Korea 1.6% to 2.3 % :378,000 to 533,000
Portuguese
Timor 8.00% to 14.00%:40,000 to 70,000
Singapore 6.87% :50,000
Phillipines 3.48% to 6.6% :557,000 to 1,057,000


And the rest are there as well, frightening and in no particular order

Totals 3.17% to 4.00% :62,294,200 to 78,439,200

[Simon39759]

But that the numbers for the entire period of the war, not for the cold-blooded, calculated, gratuitous murders of the Holocaust. Pretty different context.

[MG1962]

But that the numbers for the entire period of the war, not for the cold-blooded, calculated, gratuitous murders of the Holocaust. Pretty different context.

In some instances no. The Slavs, Gypsys and Catholics were rounded up in similar circumstances to the Jews. The figure of 6 million non Jews does not take in to account those killed as part of military action

I believe it is important to remember the non Jew deaths, because it puts the Jewish deaths into context. A holocaust denier can argue the Jews fabricated the whole thing, but go strangely quiet when they discover many non Jews enjoyed the same level of Nazi hospitality

[Dancing David]

But that the numbers for the entire period of the war, not for the cold-blooded, calculated, gratuitous murders of the Holocaust. Pretty different context.

Yes, I was just making a point about the impact in general on the war. The Poles really got it.

The chart lists things like 'german holocuast' numbers, but given summary execution of villages, those numbers are hard to come by. When you shoot a bunch of people for partisan activity, it is not really a casualty of war.

[Dancing David]

In some instances no. The Slavs, Gypsys and Catholics were rounded up in similar circumstances to the Jews. The figure of 6 million non Jews does not take in to account those killed as part of military action

I believe it is important to remember the non Jew deaths, because it puts the Jewish deaths into context. A holocaust denier can argue the Jews fabricated the whole thing, but go strangely quiet when they discover many non Jews enjoyed the same level of Nazi hospitality

Or the number of slave workers who thought they were going to have a real job. Like French people who volunteered to work and then became slaves.

The Nacht und Nebel campaign was there as well. The willingness of Stalin to throw people under the bus can never be underestimated.

[MG1962]

Or the number of slave workers who thought they were going to have a real job. Like French people who volunteered to work and then became slaves.

The Nacht und Nebel campaign was there as well. The willingness of Stalin to throw people under the bus can never be underestimated.

I wonder if historians consider the slave workers as part of the holocaust figures...could be some home work for me. And yes Uncle Jo. What an outstanding humanitarian he was, unlike Hitler's 12 years he had a generation to develope his hospitality skills

[Dancing David]

He was quite the nut case... along with Cousin Adolph

[dudalb]

Most Historians consider the term "The Holocaust" to refer specifically to the Nazi attempt to exterminate the Jews. Other Nazi crimes were just as horrendous, but historians do not consider them as part of the Holocaust.

[nota]

Most Historians consider the term "The Holocaust" to refer specifically to the Nazi attempt to exterminate the Jews. Other Nazi crimes were just as horrendous, but historians do not consider them as part of the Holocaust.

if you die because the german army took all your food
or they shoot you in your place
your still just as dead as the people drug off to a camp and killed

I would think a big % of the jews were shot in place vs the numbers
drug off to a pit in the woods vs those who were transported to a camp
and I bet every last one was counted in the 6 million number

gays reds gypsies russians and poles along with other political and some religious groups
also suffered their own holocaust
sorry the jews have no exclusive claim to the term holocaust

[Simon39759]

Most Historians consider the term "The Holocaust" to refer specifically to the Nazi attempt to exterminate the Jews. Other Nazi crimes were just as horrendous, but historians do not consider them as part of the Holocaust.

Well, it depends who you ask, in fact.
I went with the broader definition because it is the one used in the title of the thread.

Similarly, went I objected to the numbers given, it was because I differentiate between people loosing their life as a consequence of being bombed during a military operation and being specifically targeted by the Nazis for being Jews, Rom, homosexual or any minority that the murderers just happen not to like...

[Dancing David]

Yeah, i agree i just gave those numbers as a side bar.

They include the ones listed under jewish holocaust.

[lightfire22000]

It's actually somewhat complicated. Roughly 12 million people were killed in the concentration camps I think. Also, roughly 6 million were killed because the Nazis considered them Jewish. However, that doesn't mean that the people themselves considered themselves Jewish. Considerable numbers of so called "Jews" were atheists, Christians, or of other religions.

[Simon39759]

Minor nit-pick but I don't think that the '12 millions were killed in concentration camps' is accurate.
A large number were actually murdered outside of the camp structure -and often before the concentration camps were open- such as at Babi Yar or during the liquidation of the Ghettos or during the death March.
Doesn't change the gist of your point though, but the Holocaust was not limited to the actual concentration/extermination camps.

[ddt]

Also, roughly 6 million were killed because the Nazis considered them Jewish. However, that doesn't mean that the people themselves considered themselves Jewish. Considerable numbers of so called "Jews" were atheists, Christians, or of other religions.

Jewishness is not identical to being of Judaic faith. According to Jewish law, everyone with a Jewish mother is considered to be a Jew him/herself. Whether they have converted, or become atheist, or their ancestors already had abandoned the Judaic faith is not relevant in that.

[woolfe99]

This is not to denigrate the memory of the millions of jews who were murdered, but apart from the 7 million Jews, how many were murdered in the holocaust, under Generalplan ost and the non-newish victims in the Death camps?

Beware the oft-repeated 11 million number. The 5 million non-Jewish victims part of that was basically invented by Simon Wiesenthal to universalize the Holocaust. The truth is that Mr. Wiesenthal had no idea how many non-Jewish victims there were. 5 million is too high for direct, intentional killings but too low for total deaths.

There is a definitional problem with determining victim numbers. Are we referring to those intentionally and directly slaughtered, or would victims of Nazi criminal neglect do? In other words, if people starve to death or die of disease because of privations imposed by oppressive Nazi policies, that is a large category of non-Jews who might or might not be included.

Here, IMO, is your best source online:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/04/5-million-non-jewish-victims.html

Link to part 2 for Mr. Muehlenkamp's bottom line, which I'll cut and paste for you here:

Soviet Union 5,030,000 to 5,800,000
Poland 1,000,000
Czechoslovakia 33,000
Yugoslavia 260,000
Romania 51,000
Hungary 28,000
Greece 150,000
Italy 76,000
France 147,000
Belgium 17,000
Netherlands 75,000
Norway 2,000
Denmark 1,000
Austria 16,000
Germany 245,000
Total 7,131,000 to 7,901,000

Bear in mind that he is considering deaths due to "criminal neglect" in these totals, his rationale being that the numbers for Jewish dead include deaths due to ghettoization and general privations in the Nazi camp system, not just deaths due to gassing and shooting, so he is trying to use a consistent methodology between the two.

- Dave

[Simon39759]

Jewishness is not identical to being of Judaic faith. According to Jewish law, everyone with a Jewish mother is considered to be a Jew him/herself. Whether they have converted, or become atheist, or their ancestors already had abandoned the Judaic faith is not relevant in that.

And the Nazis had their own definition(s - the definition they applied in France was a bit narrower, and included the practice of the Judaic Religion, at least in theory)

[Damien Evans]

This is not to denigrate the memory of the millions of jews who were murdered, but apart from the 7 million Jews, how many were murdered in the holocaust, under Generalplan ost and the non-newish victims in the Death camps?

About the same again.