Tapes Show Abuse of 9/11 Detainees

[subgenius]

We are the good guys. Right?

Hundreds of videotapes that federal prison officials had claimed were destroyed show that foreign nationals held at a New York detention facility after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks were victims of physical and verbal abuse by guards, the Justice Department's inspector general said yesterday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13497-2003Dec18.html

How many were ever charged with a crime, much less convicted of something? Will we ever know? Will we repeat history? Will we be so much like the ones we hate?
Things are not black and white. We are not all good, and "they" are not all evil.

[subgenius]

One focus of the report was an American flag T-shirt that hung from a wall at the MDC with the slogan, "These colors don't run." Four corrections employees told investigators that the shirt, which hung in a prisoner receiving area for months, was covered with bloodstains, including some that appeared to have come from detainees being slammed into the wall.
...

A federal dragnet after the Sept. 11 attacks resulted in the detention of more than 1,200 foreign nationals, including 762 people who were the focus of Fine's original probe. Most were of Arab or South Asian descent and were held on immigration violations under a directive from Attorney General John D. Ashcroft while authorities attempted to determine whether they were connected to the attack or to terrorist groups. None was ever charged with terrorism-related crimes, however.

...
MDC Warden Michael Zenk and other officials repeatedly told Fine's investigators that the videotapes had been destroyed as part of a recycling policy, the report said.
....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13497-2003Dec18.html

"These colors don't run." No, blood is very hard to get out.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by subgenius
We are the good guys. Right?

Hundreds of videotapes that federal prison officials had claimed were destroyed show that foreign nationals held at a New York detention facility after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks were victims of physical and verbal abuse by guards, the Justice Department's inspector general said yesterday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13497-2003Dec18.html

How many were ever charged with a crime, much less convicted of something? Will we ever know? Will we repeat history? Will we be so much like the ones we hate?
Things are not black and white. We are not all good, and "they" are not all evil.

Truth can be stranger than fiction:

I recall a movie a while back called The Seige (1998?)

not a great movie in and of itself, most parallels won't hold up, but post 9/11, possibly good for some education and reflection.

[BTox]

Originally posted by subgenius

How many were ever charged with a crime, much less convicted of something? Will we ever know? Will we repeat history? Will we be so much like the ones we hate?
Things are not black and white. We are not all good, and "they" are not all evil.

:v: Gee, do you think it might have had something to do with the fact that we were essentially in a state of war at that time, especially around NYC? And do you think maybe some of these people lost friends and colleagues at the WTC?

[subgenius]

What a lame justification for brutality. Please think about the implications of what you're saying.
All brutality can be justified in this way.

How long after 9/11 would it not be justified to brutalize innocent people? Now? Ever?

Yes have a "smilie" of someone playing the fiddle when its you, or someone you care about (you apparently don't care about any random human being).

Anyone else care to rationalize this as being in the "heat of the moment"?
That's exactly the time to listen to our "higher angels".

[BTox]

Originally posted by subgenius
What a lame justification for brutality. Please think about the implications of what you're saying.
All brutality can be justified in this way.


Hey pal, did you know anyone killed at the WTC? I did.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by BTox


Hey pal, did you know anyone killed at the WTC? I did.
And what if he knew twice as many people killed as you did? so what? I have no doubt people feel rage and the desire for revenge. I know people who have been the victims of crime, I could not condone the bashing of those responsibe, let alone those "suspected" of responsibility....

In time, I believe Americans will look back on this sort of thing with the same attitude as the misstreatment of Japanese, or anyone who looked Japanese, after pearl harbour... Understandable, but still shamefull.

[American]

Originally posted by subgenius
What a lame justification for brutality.

Being in a war?


There are also tapes of brutality that don't show the victims, because they're all trapped inside of falling skyscrapers soaked in burning jet fuel.


Once again, a leftie cares not what really matters.

[BTox]

Originally posted by The Fool

And what if he knew twice as many people killed as you did? so what? I have no doubt people feel rage and the desire for revenge. I know people who have been the victims of crime, I could not condone the bashing of those responsibe, let alone those "suspected" of responsibility....


I notice no response from subgenius... I'm guessing he knows no one. This wasn't just an ordinary crime, it was an attack against civilians. Extraordinary circumstances...

[The Fool]

Originally posted by American


Being in a war?


There are also tapes of brutality that don't show the victims, because they're all trapped inside of falling skyscrapers soaked in burning jet fuel.


Once again, a leftie cares not what really matters.

So let me get this quite clear American, you believe an appropriate response to 9/11 Is the bashing of random Arabs?

[Some Friggin Guy]

I can't spe4ak for Subgenious, but as someone who was in New York that day and scheduled to be in Tower One that afternoon, as well as someone who's father was scheduled to be there, who's sister and wife were in the air from New York and Bostyon respectively, and who lost two friends in the towers:

The random brutality of people who were only SUSPECTED of being involved is a part of the rpoblem, not the solution. Even if we knew for a fact they were involved, stooping to the level that our enemies believe us to be at only gives them ammunition.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by BTox


I notice no response from subgenius... I'm guessing he knows no one. This wasn't just an ordinary crime, it was an attack against civilians. Extraordinary circumstances...


And a persons opinions should be valued differently depending on thier personal relationships with the victims? How can thier be any response to bashing detainees other than its unacceptable. What happened to your proud tradition of the pursuit of truth and justice? Where to summary bashings fit into that picture? If you find it acceptable then why do you bother with a judiciary or a rule of law?

If these people feel thay have a right to bash detainees then why not joe sixpack on the street? Why can't he bash someone he feels may be linked to the murderers responsible for 9/11?

[Zero]

Originally posted by American


Being in a war?


There are also tapes of brutality that don't show the victims, because they're all trapped inside of falling skyscrapers soaked in burning jet fuel.


Once again, a leftie cares not what really matters. And the people who did it died with the victims...beating up on innocent people who happen to be Arab is not a sensible or appropriate response.

[Zero]

Originally posted by BTox


I notice no response from subgenius... I'm guessing he knows no one. This wasn't just an ordinary crime, it was an attack against civilians. Extraordinary circumstances... So what? I don't see a connection between 9-11 and abusing prisoners. If a cop can't leave his emotions at home, he needs to stay home. 'Extraordinary circumstances' don't make wrong actions right...understandable perhaps, but not acceptable.

[BTox]

Originally posted by The Fool
What happened to your proud tradition of the pursuit of truth and justice? Where to summary bashings fit into that picture? If you find it acceptable then why do you bother with a judiciary or a rule of law?

If these people feel thay have a right to bash detainees then why not joe sixpack on the street? Why can't he bash someone he feels may be linked to the murderers responsible for 9/11?

I find it acceptable during a time of war. And let's be real here - pushing prisoners into walls? "verbal" abuse? Doesn't sound much different than what many police do when they arrest people, in any country.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Zero
So what? I don't see a connection between 9-11 and abusing prisoners. If a cop can't leave his emotions at home, he needs to stay home. 'Extraordinary circumstances' don't make wrong actions right...understandable perhaps, but not acceptable.

That's your opinion. I disagree.

[Zero]

Originally posted by BTox


That's your opinion. I disagree. You would.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by BTox


I find it acceptable during a time of war. And let's be real here - pushing prisoners into walls? "verbal" abuse? Doesn't sound much different than what many police do when they arrest people, in any country.
cool, Just acceptable for those that america detains....would you support the bashing of Americans by Taliban police? If not why not...summary bashing of suspects is acceptable isn't it?

[subgenius]

So Mr. Tox feels that brutalizing of innocent folks that had nothing to do with the attack (not just verbal abuse, not just Arab Americans) is justified.

This is unbearably sad.

Makes those who did it quite like the terrorists they were "retaliating" against, no?
None of these people were terrorists. They were rounded up in a dragnet, and detained on unrelated charges.


Happy Holidays.

[Hypocolius]

Originally posted by BTox


I notice no response from subgenius... I'm guessing he knows no one. ...

Maybe so, but I did, and I agree with subgenius.

[fishbob]

Hey pal, did you know anyone killed at the WTC? I did. The simplified form of the BTox position: [Somebody that looks like Ahmed hit my friend and I'm mad but I can't get back at Ahmed so I'm going to beat up Jose and anybody that looks like Jose. And I don't understand why anybody should be upset about this.]

Things were a bit more complicated in real life, but the logic is the same, and it ain't logical.

[shuize]

Oh, wait. You mean to say prison guards are pushing detainees up against walls and directing bad laguage toward them?

Man, I'm never going to get to sleep now....

[Ian Osborne]

So in other words, the 'good' guys are entitled to behave exactly like the 'bad' guys, as long as they've got an excuse, right? So you'd have no problem with Saddam abusing American prisoners? You wouldn't object to 9/11 if the hijackers had been Vietnamese or Nicaraguans who had lost friends and family to American-purchased bullets?

It amazes me how America has thrown away the support offered by the entire world after the WTC attacks. We always expected a few jingoistic hotheads to react like Btox or American, but no one thought such a large section of the States would react like that. Maybe I was naive, but I really thought the American public would decry human rights abuses such as Camp X-Ray, not turn a blind eye to it and shrug their shoulders.

There were memorials all over the world in the wake of the disaster - my home town (and many others across the UK) held a service in the town square, and there was an impeccably-kept two-minute silence, and has been on 11th September every year since. If we hold one next year, I'm going to whistle The Sun has got His Hat On through it. I still feel for the poor wretches trapped in the burining buildings, but their lives are no more valuable than the Iraqi and Afghani citizens killed since.

And if Camp X-Ray is a fitting place for war criminals, why aren't William Calley and Oliver North there? Oh, that's right - they're Americans, and so can do whatever they like...

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by Ian Osborne:
So in other words, the 'good' guys are entitled to behave exactly like the 'bad' guys, as long as they've got an excuse, right?

Get real. There's no equivalence between verbal abuse, pushing people against walls and excessive restraints, and the excesses and horror of Saddam's regime. How many investigations did the Baathist's hold into abuses in their own justice and prison system?

[shemp]

Gee, I now feel justified. I think I'll go out and beat the snot of some A-rab today. Maybe kick the crap out of a couple Japs for Pearl Harbor too! And whack a few Brits for the War of 1812!

I still don't see how two wrongs make a right. I always thought that in this country, one was innocent until proven guilty. I also thought that punishment for the guilty was to be decided by the courts of law, not by individuals or mobs with a grudge. If we're going to throw these two rights out the window, then we aren't much better than our enemies, and we aren't left with much reason to defend this country other than pure survival.

And for those of you who will say "But these people aren't U.S. citizens, they're enemy combatants," I say that the two rights above, while only guaranteed by our Constitution to U.S. citizens, are basic human rights that should apply worldwide, and should apply to any non-citizen arrestee who is not classified as an enemy combatant. As for enemy combatants, the Geneva Convention should apply, and I don't recall that the Geneva Convention allows beatings and torture.

While in some cases it may be understandable on a visceral level, the people who committed these beatings committed crimes, and should be brought before the law for trial.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

Originally posted by shemp
....while only guaranteed by our Constitution to U.S. citizens, are basic human rights that should apply worldwide, and should apply to any non-citizen arrestee who is not classified as an enemy combatant.

well them lets redefine the term human then, so that basic human rights don't apply to so many people...

which gender do we include in this exclusive club?

Do people who were born in far off, hard to pronounce countries and towns, with harder to pronounce names make it into the exlusive human club?

What shades of colour of skin colour do we include?
Blood types?
What hair textures do we include?
What languages are acceptable as human languages?
People that use sign language rather than speach, are they human?

DO we use the amount of property or wealth people possess to determine if they are permitted to be human?

I suspsect that people who are our familiy and friends (our tribe, clan) and immediate neighbours will easily make it into this exclusive club of people worthy of being called human, and deserving of universal human rights (if history is any indication of how culture helps us relate to our fellow beings on the planet). THose that are like us, are easier to humanise. Those that are not like us are easier to dehumanise.

[subgenius]

I notice that some want to characterize the brutality as just being pushed against a wall (want to be pushed against a wall until you bleed?).
Another pathetic way of attempting to justify what everyone else involved in the investigation now says is unacceptable for any reason.
Hard to comprehend how anyone finds no problem with this.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


Get real. There's no equivalence between verbal abuse, pushing people against walls and excessive restraints, and the excesses and horror of Saddam's regime. How many investigations did the Baathist's hold into abuses in their own justice and prison system?
Not following how Saddam or the Baathists got into this.
They were supposedly outraged by 9/11.
Does that mean then that they would be justified in crashing a plane into a building full of innocent people?

[crackmonkey]

This is unacceptable behavior by some prison guards. This is neither symptomatic of nor approved by the administration.

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


Get real. There's no equivalence between verbal abuse, pushing people against walls and excessive restraints, and the excesses and horror of Saddam's regime.


True. But the latter being a crime does not make anything less horrible okay.

By your logic you should agree with the following: "Okay, murder is a crime, but a single murder is less horrible than mass murder, so a single murder is okay (as long as it is an American murdering a foreigner)."


How many investigations did the Baathist's hold into abuses in their own justice and prison system?

Do you want to guess how many serious investigations (not just cover-up) into the allegations of violence against 9/11 detainees there will be? Do you want to guess how many of those guilty of that violence are going to be punished for that?

My guess is "zero" on both counts.

[subgenius]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
This is unacceptable behavior by some prison guards. This is neither symptomatic of nor approved by the administration.
Absolutely. One of the points being how it destroys the reputation of all those doing a good job.
Another reason why its unacceptable in a civilized society.

[Tmy]

Originally posted by BTox


:v: Gee, do you think it might have had something to do with the fact that we were essentially in a state of war at that time, especially around NYC? And do you think maybe some of these people lost friends and colleagues at the WTC?


This is the type of justification that the terrorists use.

My country/relatives/people have been hurt by the americans/isrealies/government/ so its ok for me to blow up/kill/injure inncocent people.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Shane Costello


Get real. There's no equivalence between verbal abuse, pushing people against walls and excessive restraints, and the excesses and horror of Saddam's regime. How many investigations did the Baathist's hold into abuses in their own justice and prison system?

Ok, so what you are saying is, we can do what ever we want, so long as it is less bad than someone else's crimes? What kind of ************ moral relativism are you promoting here?

[crackmonkey]

Look - if these charges are true, the guards broke the law and should be held accountable. End of story.

[Zero]

Originally posted by crackmonkey
Look - if these charges are true, the guards broke the law and should be held accountable. End of story. That would be the simple answer, wouldn't it?:D

[Jessica Blue]

Originally posted by BTox
Gee, do you think it might have had something to do with the fact that we were essentially in a state of war at that time, especially around NYC? And do you think maybe some of these people lost friends and colleagues at the WTC?It is lame BTox. Here we have the *vigilante pose*...the US is now Dirty Harry writ large. This is why the 'man of action' persona plays well for George Bush in the political arena. "I will break any law, violate any treaty, dismiss any agreement, and while I will get it wrong sometimes I will summarily imprison large numbers of foreigners and even some US citizens to pre-empt attacks to protect the American people. I'll do whatever it takes".

It sounds appealing as long as you believe you won't be targeted by such tactics yourself.

[Shane Costello]

Originally posted by subgenius:
Not following how Saddam or the Baathists got into this.

Ian suggested that the attitude of some here was that the "good guys" could behave in a similar fashion to the "bad guys" as long as they had a good excuse, and whether they'd mind Saddam abusing American prisoners. My point was that they "good guys" were such since they didn't nad couldn't behave in the same way as the "bad guys". That's not to say that illegal behaviour is ever excusable, put a sense of proportion should be maintained.


Originally posted by Chaos:
True. But the latter being a crime does not make anything less horrible okay.

Again I'm not defending any illegal actions on behalf of the guards.


By your logic you should agree with the following: "Okay, murder is a crime, but a single murder is less horrible than mass murder, so a single murder is okay (as long as it is an American murdering a foreigner)."

That's not my logic. I should have made it clearer in my initial post but I wasn't trying to defend illegality, any more than I'd defend murder by anyone on any scale.

Do you want to guess how many serious investigations (not just cover-up) into the allegations of violence against 9/11 detainees there will be?

Well the investigation that into these abuses seems to have been an earnest one. The report recommended disciplinary action for 10 employees and concluded that while failure to provide videotapes hindered the investigation, this was probably not indicative of a cover-up.

Originally posted by Zero:
Ok, so what you are saying is, we can do what ever we want, so long as it is less bad than someone else's crimes? What kind of ************ moral relativism are you promoting here?

Strawman.

[shuize]

Anyone who thinks prison guards didn't push prisoners against walls and use bad language toward them before 9/11 is living in a fantasy world.

As are all the international posters who think such things don't happen in their own prisons.

What's that you say? You weren't making such a claim? I see. You just wanted to throw another stone from your glass house at the United States....

[BTox]

Originally posted by shuize
Anyone who thinks prison guards didn't push prisoners against walls and use bad language toward them before 9/11 is living in a fantasy world.

As are all the international posters who think such things don't happen in their own prisons.

What's that you say? You weren't making such a claim? I see. You just wanted to throw another stone from your glass house at the United States....

Exactly. And then you hear from the same people comparisons of this to the treatment of Japanese Americans in WWII. Much ado about nothing.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by BTox


Exactly. And then you hear from the same people comparisons of this to the treatment of Japanese Americans in WWII. Much ado about nothing.

Much ado about nothing? I wonder if you would have thought the same if you had have been one of the people detained and beaten? But they are just a few arabs, not even Americans....who cares.

[Zero]

Originally posted by The Fool


Much ado about nothing? I wonder if you would have thought the same if you had have been one of the people detained and beaten? But they are just a few arabs, not even Americans....who cares. The real point is that some people will anything to defend cruelty and mistreatment by figures in authority.

[T'ai Chi]

Originally posted by BTox

I find it acceptable during a time of war. And let's be real here - pushing prisoners into walls? "verbal" abuse? Doesn't sound much different than what many police do when they arrest people, in any country.

Would you find it acceptable if hypothetically you were on the receiving end?

[BTox]

Originally posted by The Fool


Much ado about nothing? I wonder if you would have thought the same if you had have been one of the people detained and beaten? But they are just a few arabs, not even Americans....who cares.


Yes, I suppose I would have been crushed. You know, the verbal abuse and all. Look, all I'm saying is at the time AND place it occured AND the severity, or lack thereof reported, I don't have a problem with it. If it continued today, if Arab-Americans were being rounded up and thrown into prison camps, yes. But that's not the case.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Zero
The real point is that some people will anything to defend cruelty and mistreatment by figures in authority.

If this made any sense I'd respond...

[Zero]

Originally posted by BTox


If this made any sense I'd respond... If you could handle reality, it would make perfect sense.

[fishbob]

Beating prisoners, denial of legal counsel, setting aside the rights of citizens because of a terrorist attack. These are the actions of cowards. Ooh we're afraid - the mean old terrorists attacked us.

I am an American citizen, and I am proud of so much that this country has done, but I am ashamed of these cowardly acts. I want it stopped. So all you US citizens, stop cringing in fear and start acting with a bit of pride.

End of Rant.

[Zero]

Originally posted by fishbob
Beating prisoners, denial of legal counsel, setting aside the rights of citizens because of a terrorist attack. These are the actions of cowards. Ooh we're afraid - the mean old terrorists attacked us.

I am an American citizen, and I am proud of so much that this country has done, but I am ashamed of these cowardly acts. I want it stopped. So all you US citizens, stop cringing in fear and start acting with a bit of pride.

End of Rant. Uh huh...just what I have said all along: stop lashing out, because of fear. Start acting like mature adults, and face the truth and reality head-on.

[peptoabysmal]

Originally posted by subgenius
We are the good guys. Right?

Hundreds of videotapes that federal prison officials had claimed were destroyed show that foreign nationals held at a New York detention facility after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks were victims of physical and verbal abuse by guards, the Justice Department's inspector general said yesterday.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13497-2003Dec18.html

How many were ever charged with a crime, much less convicted of something? Will we ever know? Will we repeat history? Will we be so much like the ones we hate?
Things are not black and white. We are not all good, and "they" are not all evil.

Inexcuseable abuse of authority.

The guards and/or their superiors who participated in or allowed such treatment of the detainees to go unchecked should be disciplined or removed from their jobs and perhaps even criminal charges brought. What does that have to do with us being or not being the good guys? What's your point?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by BTox



Yes, I suppose I would have been crushed. You know, the verbal abuse and all. Look, all I'm saying is at the time AND place it occured AND the severity, or lack thereof reported, I don't have a problem with it. If it continued today, if Arab-Americans were being rounded up and thrown into prison camps, yes. But that's not the case.
How long after future terrorist attacks would your "whack an arab" amnesty period last...would 2 days be enough? a week maybe??

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool

How long after future terrorist attacks would your "whack an arab" amnesty period last...would 2 days be enough? a week maybe??
future attacks? That's the best you got?

How long after I killed your little sister out of anger would you hold a grudge against me? would you just wanyt me to spend the rest of my life in jail and let it go, I mean really let it go?

Are you that unattached to your little sister?

Yes they screwed up and deserve punishment. But in the US it's expected that if you kill a cop, you don't get their sympathy and they will react just like any other human would.

I condemn their actions, probably more so than you do and for far better reasons as I am talking about honor while you merely whine about an innapropriate action.

People kill people and mistreat people every day. Last time I was in Australia I saw cops beating aborigines simply because they tried to get into the Mango in Perth and were refused by the white australians. That to me is much more severe than overreacting to the death of friends. Now can you defend the cops and bouncers in your homeland or will you make a long and exasperated speech on their evil as well?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll

How long after I killed your little sister out of anger would you hold a grudge against me? would you just wanyt me to spend the rest of my life in jail and let it go, I mean really let it go?

Are you that unattached to your little sister?


Ok lets make the little sister law then, is that what you want? Justice for all, except killers of little sisters? To use your expression "Is that the best you got"?? The little sister rationalisation? come on troll, you can do better. I would have expected At least a blind grandmother in a wheelchair...I suppose this means that you don't care about blind grandmothers in wheelchairs? Have you no honor? Don't you have grandparents??

Yes they screwed up and deserve punishment. But in the US it's expected that if you kill a cop, you don't get their sympathy and they will react just like any other human would.

and what gives you the Idea that I don't understand how they felt.. So we both condemn thier actions and believe they deserve punnishment...so whats the problem??


I condemn their actions, probably more so than you do and for far better reasons as I am talking about honor while you merely whine about an innapropriate action.

is that your Idea of honorable behavior?....sad.



People kill people and mistreat people every day. Last time I was in Australia I saw cops beating aborigines simply because they tried to get into the Mango in Perth and were refused by the white australians. That to me is much more severe than overreacting to the death of friends. Now can you defend the cops and bouncers in your homeland or will you make a long and exasperated speech on their evil as well?

Both the topic of this thread and your example are cases of Assault and should be condemned and those guilty punished....so far you have done an excellent job of supporting my views. Although I am not quite sure why you think I would defend the Actions of the Australian police you described... I'm quite familiar with that sort of behavior.....

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Troll

future attacks? That's the best you got?

How long after I killed your little sister out of anger would you hold a grudge against me? would you just wanyt me to spend the rest of my life in jail and let it go, I mean really let it go?

Are you that unattached to your little sister?


Wrong analogy.

The right analogy would be "How long after I killed your little sister would you hold a grudge against anyone who might mabye come from the same country I did?"

Does it finally get into your minds?

These people who were mistreated probably had NOTHING to do with 9/11. They were NOT to blame for the deaths.

THEY WERE INNOCENT!

Excuse the screaming, but it seams normal talk does not reach your minds any more.

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool


Both the topic of this thread and your example are cases of Assault and should be condemned and those guilty punished....so far you have done an excellent job of supporting my views. Although I am not quite sure why you think I would defend the Actions of the Australian police you described... I'm quite familiar with that sort of behavior.....

I'm merely stating that you and others likew you cannot keep posting based upon your emotions and negate the emotions of those that have a differing view than your own.

And yes, you do base your posts upon your emotions

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


I'm merely stating that you and others likew you cannot keep posting based upon your emotions and negate the emotions of those that have a differing view than your own.

And yes, you do base your posts upon your emotions
ummm My emotions? what do you mean...my emotional call for the presumption of innocence...or maybe my emotional condemnation of police bashing innocent people....Whereas your perfectly rational example of my supposed indifference to the fate my fictional little sister is ok....whatever....

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool

ummm My emotions? what do you mean...my emotional call for the presumption of innocence...or maybe my emotional condemnation of police bashing innocent people....Whereas your perfectly rational example of my supposed indifference to the fate my fictional little sister is ok....whatever....

Are you really that daft? I condemned the actions myself. But I didn't go overboard in it as you did.

Yes it was wrong. But the cops in question acted emotionally. Cops shouldn't act emotionally, but by your previous comments on this board, to do so otherwise means they shouldn't be cops. so the only one here going on double standards of emotions is you.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


Are you really that daft? I condemned the actions myself. But I didn't go overboard in it as you did.

Yes it was wrong. But the cops in question acted emotionally. Cops shouldn't act emotionally, but by your previous comments on this board, to do so otherwise means they shouldn't be cops. so the only one here going on double standards of emotions is you.
I went overboard? This is from the guy with the fictitious little sister appeal to emotion?....Lol.

[NullPointerException]

Whats your point? I'm not a prison guard or a bigot, I don't pay their salaries or elect the people that hire them. I don't have influence in the area or the ability to vote on legislation. The extent of participation I have in my government is a pos/neg test every 4 years. Do you want a democrat as president? If no, than a republican will be president.

[PygmyPlaidGiraffe]

have been under scrutiny and under criticism for a while:

Times of Crisis and Fear (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/12/scotus.terrorism.secrecy/index.html) "It is the responsibility of courts, and especially this court, to provide meaningful judicial review when the government invokes national security to justify unprecedented secrecy in exercising its awesome power to arrest and detain hundreds of people," lawyers for the organization argued in a court filing, according to The Associated Press.


Muslims allegedly detained sue (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s1100935.htm)


Some of the 760+ of Arabs and or Muslims rounded up (post 9/11 attacks) claim they were allegedly abused while in custody for several weeks. They were rounded up and detained for interogation purposes. They are naming intel agencies and Ashcroft in suits. A Justice Department investigation is ongoing. Many of these Arabs were not charged with terrorist crimes and were released.No criminal charges laid (http://edition.cnn.com/2004/LAW/05/03/911.detainees.abuse/index.html)