What do you make of Mao

[Elf Grinder 3000]

In school we learned basically nothing of Chinese history. And the only information I have is literally from reading wikipedia. But I was wondering what is your opinion on Mao Zedong?

I work with a lot of Chinese people (straight from China) and when the topic of Mao came up I was surprised that they were pretty positive towards him. They said he was viewed as a God to a lot of people.

From what I understand and the little I have read, his leadership led to massive starvation in the "Giant leap forward" where they used unproven agricultural techniques and diverted labor to other production. This caused millions of deaths from starvation ~30million?

I also read about how the communists had "struggle sessions" where people against the state were terrorized into suicide. And there were other purges in the Cultural Revolution.

But basically my question is how does history view Mao. I guess I am looking at things from my own perspective. We could look at america and slavery for example. But the crimes of Mao seem pretty extreme and it is surprising that all the Chinese still seem to like him.

But dont a lot of russians idolize Stalin. It seems a little screwey to me.

[gnome]

The ones that view him as a God or are even generally positively disposed probably were not accurately informed of history.

I'm not sure anything he's done could redeem the tens of millions of murders or, phrased as nicely as possible, sensibly preventable deaths.

[arthwollipot]

It's what my cat says when she wants to be fed.

[Tsukasa Buddha]

I think he came up with the idea that the communist revolution would rely on the chronically unemployed in the capitalist system.

But yeah, other than that he seems God awful in every respect.

[Aitch]

It's what my cat says when she wants to be fed.

IIRC Mao is the Chinese for 'cat'. Either that or the QI researchers got it wrong (again!).

[fuelair]

Mao Foo Yung

Hot and Sour Mao Soup

Mao Fried Rice

Sweet Rice and Mao Balls

[wollery]

IIRC Mao is the Chinese for 'cat'. Either that or the QI researchers got it wrong (again!).Nope, they got it right.

Wo men you liang zhe mao. ;)

[coalesce]

I can make a hat, I can make a brooch, I can make a pterodactyl...

Michael

[fuelair]

Mao Goo Gai Pan

Mao Shu Pork

[Safe-Keeper]

He was a beast who murdered 70 million people. Once you know that, you know pretty much all you need to know.

[headscratcher4]

30 million is way low. Look at the Black Book of Communism and Hungry Ghosts: Mao's Secret Famine. Too depressing.

[Piscivore]

I can make a hat, I can make a brooch, I can make a pterodactyl...

Michael

Damn you! That's the first thing that popped into my head too. :D

[Simon39759]

I don't know all that much about Mao, all things considered.

But, he benefited from a lot of positive propaganda so, it is hardly surprising for some people to buy it. Also, there is some screening for people leaving the country, so, if you meet a Chinese person outside of China, there is a slightly higher than average chance for this person to be a 'good party member'. Finally, despite all the horrors he is responsible for, Mao and his regime did do a few good things. The government they replace was pretty evil and corrupt itself and, after decades of meandering under the communist dogma, the Chinese economy is now much more pragmatic and successful. Some people might attribute that to Mao's successors and so, indirectly, to Mao itself. It's a stretch, of course, especially considering how bad the cultural revolution really was, but, after decades of propaganda, people might be confused.

[headscratcher4]

While not really quibbling that the Nationalist regime was corrupt...not sure correcting that corruption was worth 60-100 million lives, but hey, that just me.

[dudalb]

Chaing Kai Shek was no saint, but he never murdered millions of people, and Taiwan has evolved into a fairly stable democracy...something you can't say about China.

[Aitch]

Wo men you liang zhe mao. ;)

That's easy for you to say! :confused:

I don't know all that much about Mao, all things considered.


Me either, but I remember that just about everybody in the Sixth Form when I was at school had a copy of his Little Red Book. Apparently, a letter to the Chinese Embassy was all you needed to get one. These days it costs about £10, via Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Quotations-Chairman-Mao-Tse-Tung-Tung/dp/083512388X/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1253906147&sr=1-2). Some of the comments are, err, interesting?

11 of 24 people found the following review helpful:
5.0 out of 5 stars This is a GOOD book., 19 Jan 1999
By A Customer
This book, along with The Communist Manifesto and The state and revolution one of the most important books for Marxism-Leninism-Maoism, and a most for EVERY worker. Read it, that's our tip.

The Eastern Maoist Society

and

One powerful revelation after another!, 29 Dec 1998
By A Customer
Reading this book clearly illustrates why Chairman Mao is adored to this day by people who believe in real freedom and justice and oppose expoitation and oppression. It radically transformed my world outlook and changed my life. Long Live Chairman Mao!!!


Assuming that they are serious, of course. :cool:

[Simon39759]

While not really quibbling that the Nationalist regime was corrupt...not sure correcting that corruption was worth 60-100 million lives, but hey, that just me.

Probably not. But that still means that there are thousand of people out there, commoners not party apparatchik, that objectively benefited from the change in regime.
There are certainly not the majority, but there certainly exist, and this particular person mentioned in the OP might be one of them, or the descendant of one of them.

[headscratcher4]

Common people suffered the most, IMO ...when you have government-caused mass starvation, the government feeds itself first. Most of the burden of Maoism fell on common people. Yes, there were party purges, etc., but the day to day lives, the starvation deaths and the dehumnization that so charachterize Maoism fell mostly on the peasants...supposedly the ones being liberated.

[Elf Grinder 3000]

Also, there is some screening for people leaving the country, so, if you meet a Chinese person outside of China, there is a slightly higher than average chance for this person to be a 'good party member'. Finally, despite all the horrors he is responsible for, Mao and his regime did do a few good things. The government they replace was pretty evil and corrupt itself and, after decades of meandering under the communist dogma, the Chinese economy is now much more pragmatic and successful. Some people might attribute that to Mao's successors and so, indirectly, to Mao itself. It's a stretch, of course, especially considering how bad the cultural revolution really was, but, after decades of propaganda, people might be confused.

Interesting people leaving the country are screened. It is scary that anyone has a positively view towards him.

[Simon39759]

Not really.
Any revolution is followed with a shift in powers. Some people rise to the top, and some people drop but, more modestly, some people just gain a modest opportunity to improve their status, and some people loose in status.
Even when an event is overwhelming negative, almost always, especially in something as big as the cultural Revolution, you will find a few people that saw their lot improved.

So, the fact that some people, a tiny minority, found their lot improved is not actually all that surprising, all things considered...

[gnome]

Interesting people leaving the country are screened. It is scary that anyone has a positively view towards him.

On the other hand, is it so surprising that people WITHIN the country express a positive view when surveyed?

[wollery]

Well, actually, people leaving the country aren't screened per se. It's next to impossible to get a passport if you are active in some anti-government organisation (e.g. Falun Gong), but other than that, provided you have the money to pay for it, getting a passport is fairly easy. What's difficult is getting a visa for another country. They're the ones who do the screening. Just ask Wolfman about his friend who wanted to go to TAM.

The general view in China is that Mao was not directly responsible for the Cultural Revolution, but due to old age and infirmity was duped by the Gang of Four, who used him as a means to power. Most people see Mao as a great man with unfortunate character flaws. He's revered as a great leader, a great orator and a great military strategist, who had a vision for the country, and went after it ruthlessly, until he fell foul of his largest character flaw - his ego.

I doubt anyone thinks of him as a god, and the vast majority who still revere him recognize that he wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. They're aware of his part in the Cultural Revolution. But they still see him as the Father of the country, the man who freed the peasants and removed the oppressors from power. In that light it's easy to see how people could forgive him for things that they can explain away as "not directly his fault".

[gtc]

Well, actually, people leaving the country aren't screened per se.

It's next to impossible to get a passport if you are active in some anti-government organisation (e.g. Falun Gong),


I find it hard to reconcile these two sentences.

If you are a dissident then you don't get out of China, right?

[a_unique_person]

He was a murderous tyrant who was indifferent to the people who died as a a result of his failed policies, who in the end just became a recluse who indulged himself. He was also the instigator of the great change in China that took it into the 20th Century. That doesn't make him a great man, in the good sense. No doubt someone else could have done the job much more humanely, but he was there, he was it.

[wollery]

I find it hard to reconcile these two sentences.

If you are a dissident then you don't get out of China, right?If you're already on a list then you don't get a passport, but if you aren't on a list then they don't look too hard, or grill you to find out your political leanings.

No party membership required.

[Simon39759]

Well, actually, people leaving the country aren't screened per se. It's next to impossible to get a passport if you are active in some anti-government organisation (e.g. Falun Gong), but other than that, provided you have the money to pay for it, getting a passport is fairly easy. What's difficult is getting a visa for another country. They're the ones who do the screening. Just ask Wolfman about his friend who wanted to go to TAM.

The general view in China is that Mao was not directly responsible for the Cultural Revolution, but due to old age and infirmity was duped by the Gang of Four, who used him as a means to power. Most people see Mao as a great man with unfortunate character flaws. He's revered as a great leader, a great orator and a great military strategist, who had a vision for the country, and went after it ruthlessly, until he fell foul of his largest character flaw - his ego.

I doubt anyone thinks of him as a god, and the vast majority who still revere him recognize that he wasn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination. They're aware of his part in the Cultural Revolution. But they still see him as the Father of the country, the man who freed the peasants and removed the oppressors from power. In that light it's easy to see how people could forgive him for things that they can explain away as "not directly his fault".

Thanks. very interesting and makes some sense. 'He was a bastard, but he was OUR bastard' is a fairly common attitude after the facts.

[ParrotPirate]

I make zombie Mao!

[FreshHat]

Back in the day, when Beijing was Peking, he was known as Mao Tse Tung.

I believe Mao Zedong is his porn star name.

[imjohn]

Chairman Mao?

'e's dead! That mao has ceased to exist!

[-Axiom-]

How many people died building the United States of America?
The records aren't really clear on that...

It took a lot of slaves and undocumented workers to build this country.

[Doubt]

On a business trip to China I was once asked how I thought Mao compared to George Washington. A bit of a loaded question if ever there was one.

My answer was that Mao was a better general but a much worse political leader. In retrospect, it still seems like the right answer.

Washington was not a great military leader. Competent, but not brilliant. Mao was ruthless but more talented. As political leadership goes, Washington set up traditions that were good enough to later be made permanent through laws, such as cabinet potions. Mao as a political leader? Do I really need to say anything?

ETA: Also my answer appeared to be okay with the people that asked me. So the Chinese were not thinking of Mao as any sort of god.

[Riayn]

For those of you interested in a personal account about living in China during The Cultural Revolution read Wild Swans by Jung Chang. The book contains the stories of the grandmother, mother and the author herself from feudal China through to the Cultural Revolution and beyond. The cruelties this family had to endured under Mao are heart breaking.
Yes, it is a personal account and thus very subjective, but still a compelling read.

[gnome]

How many people died building the United States of America?
The records aren't really clear on that...

It took a lot of slaves and undocumented workers to build this country.

As much of a blemish that may be on our own national history, I'd hesitate to hold it similar to the Great Leap Forward...

[Thunder]

what do I make of Mao?

Mao Lo-mein.

:)

[foco]

I work with several Chinese immigrants and all of them like him except for my boss who says that he dislikes him. I've asked him why, and he absolutely refuses to answer. Any ideas why?

[Algebra34]

‘But if you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, You ain’t going to make it with anyone anyhow’

Good enough for me.

[NWO Sentryman]

The Monster who killed 80 million people?

I would consider him the msot evil man on the planet after Pol Pot and Hitler.

[Paradox74]

I work with several Chinese immigrants and all of them like him except for my boss who says that he dislikes him. I've asked him why, and he absolutely refuses to answer. Any ideas why?

*facepalm*

Uhhh...80 million people killed? Hello?

[Arcade22]

*facepalm*

Uhhh...80 million people killed? Hello?

A small price to pay for utopia!

[Darth Rotor]

What do you make of Mao?

Mao tais
15395
DR

[Careyp74]

I can make a hat, I can make a brooch, I can make a pterodactyl...

Michael

I clicked on this thread just to see how far I needed to go in order to see this reference :)

[coalesce]

I clicked on this thread just to see how far I needed to go in order to see this reference :)

Well, just look at my signature. How could I NOT think of that line?

Michael

[Careyp74]

Well, just look at my signature. How could I NOT think of that line?

Michael

Surely it is just a coincidence.

[coalesce]

Surely it is just a coincidence.

It is a coincidence, and stop calling me....ahhhh, this is just too easy.

Michael

[Eddie Dane]

Mao was a man with great leadership qualities, especially military.
But I feel that he may have benefited from a few weekend seminars on economics and agriculture.

I also suspect he may have been a sociopath.