Doc says swine flu vaccine is deadly

[AmandaM]

Ah, it won't let me post the link because I'm too new to the forums, but go to Youtube and search for this video:
Doctor Admits Vaccine Is More Deadly Than Swine Flu Itself & Will Not Give It To His Kids

the last part after the youtube dot com slash is
watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw

Edited to add your YouTube link

E1z7KSEnyxw


I googled Dr. Kent Holtorf and he doesn't seem to come off as a crackpot. Since it's Fox, I'm inclined to disregard all of it, but is what he saying a real concern for the majority of the population?

And is it really "proven" that thimerosal causes autism in kids with mitochondrial disfunction? I thought there were suggestions, but no direct links.

I love the way the reporter breaks in when he's describing the adjuncts. You can just picture his editor yelling in the earpiece, "BE SURE AND GET HIM TO MENTION THIMEROSAL!!!"

[Terry]

E1z7KSEnyxw

just for convenience.

[themusicteacher]

Ah, it won't let me post the link because I'm too new to the forums, but go to Youtube and search for this video:
Doctor Admits Vaccine Is More Deadly Than Swine Flu Itself & Will Not Give It To His Kids

the last part after the youtube dot com slash is
watch?v=E1z7KSEnyxw

E1z7KSEnyxw


I googled Dr. Kent Holtorf and he doesn't seem to come off as a crackpot. Since it's Fox, I'm inclined to disregard all of it, but is what he saying a real concern for the majority of the population?

And is it really "proven" that thimerosal causes autism in kids with mitochondrial disfunction? I thought there were suggestions, but no direct links.

I love the way the reporter breaks in when he's describing the adjuncts. You can just picture his editor yelling in the earpiece, "BE SURE AND GET HIM TO MENTION THIMEROSAL!!!"

Any links to thimerosal and autism have yet to be proven, even coincidentally. And believe me, they've tried. Guy sounds like a crackpot but putting "Dr." in front of his name makes some people sit up and take notice.

[JJM]

... I googled Dr. Kent Holtorf and he doesn't seem to come off as a crackpot. Since it's Fox, I'm inclined to disregard all of it, but is what he saying a real concern for the majority of the population? ...When I googled the guy, the first hit concerned bioidentical hormones- class crackpottery. He also specializes in treating people with chronic fatigue syndrome and fibromyalgia. Since those are not medically treatable, opportunities for quackery abound. Fibromyalgia: http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154802

You should look at www.quackwatch.org to familiarize yourself the signs of quackery, and specific quack claims. Then you can better evaluate what you encounter. In this case, Holtorf is definitely no a reliable source of health information.

[AmandaM]

Ah thank you -- when I saw the articles on hormones I assumed he was writing about hormone replacement or menopause.

Bioidentical hormones is quackery I'm not familiar with. I'll check it out. Thank you!

It's crazy here at work. Everyone is so paranoid about getting the swine flu that if you clear your throat people step back and give you a dirty look.


thanks for the edit, btw :)

[JJM]

Search these blogs for reasons to get the flu vaccine

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

[Captain.Sassy]

Search these blogs for reasons to get the flu vaccine

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/

Thanks for these links!

[pgwenthold]

Ugh

The only difference between the swine flu vaccine and the regular flu vaccine is that they started the process about 3 months later with the swine flu vaccine. If it had become evident 3 months earlier, it would have just been included with the seasonal flu vaccine.

[Eos of the Eons]

He's talking about the hanna poling (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=174) case (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=393), where diseases cause the same problems as vaccines in people with mitochondrial disorder. They were damned if they did and damned if they didn't. There was no way to prevent what happened to Hannah unless you stuck her in a bubble and made sure she never ever got a single disease in her life. It really didn't matter if she got vaccinated or not.

http://antiantivax.flurf.net/


It is like the folks who get GBS. The flu and other triggers of the disorder triggers GBS in 1 out of 100,000 people. The flu vaccine will trigger one out of million cases of GBS. There is no way to prevent all cases of GBS.


If you have a mitochondrial disorder or are at risk of GBS, it's really ridiculous to think the vaccine should be blamed since you really are at higher risk if you don't get vaccinated! It's like me wanting to sue milk sellers for my milk allergy if I drink milk! I know I'm at risk of the sensitivity, so should I get to sue them because of my sensitivity? I was born this way, but if I drink milk and get hives, should I get compensated for that?

Sure, people at risk of GBS aren't aware of their risk since there is no test, but you are more likely to trigger it by getting the flu than by getting the vaccine.
And Hannah poling had a higher chance of her condition being triggered by the diseases than by the vaccines too, but she was pretty much fracced either way. Is that the vaccine makers fault she was born that way??? Antivaxxers figure so. So, by this logic I should be able to freak on anyone making milk products since if I, me, eat them I get a weird reaction. So all milk products are bad for everyone else too and should be banished! Well, that's the same as the antivax logic for their reasons to ban vaccines or get compensation from the evil big pharma for making them! Some people have mitochondrials disorders or are at risk of GBS... so don't have vaccines... It doesn't matter if they are safe for everyone else to get and it doesn't matter if they save millions of lives! This kid has a mitochondrial disorder, so too bad for the rest of you even though you don't have a mitochondrial disorder! You can now suffer the diseases instead, and those diseases will cause even worse effects than the vaccines to people with mitochondrial disorder, but we'll just ignore that fact!!

[dlorde]

From what I've picked up from the news and science reports here in the UK, there are (at least) two vaccinations available in Europe, from different suppliers, one with the thimerosal, one without. They are made exactly the same way as the seasonal flu vaccine. The thimerosal fuss seems to have arisen from a previous (apparently unwarranted) scare about its presence in an unrelated vaccine given to children, where the manfacturers, in consultation with relevant authorities, decided to remove the adjunct so as to allay fears and increase uptake of the vaccine. Naturally, this reinforced the (baseless) fears about thimerosal, and when it appeared in the Swine Flu vaccine, ructions ensued.

[Skeptic Ginger]

I wonder how this guy managed to be heard on Fox. Clearly his goal was to promote his alternative (sCAM) therapies for all the nebulous diseases that have gained names in modern medicine in the last few decades. Here is the news media once again believing their job is to air "both sides" meaning sCAM sellers and nutjobs in many cases get their 'side' heard as if it were valid. In reality, instead of good investigative reporting, we get fake controversy and ignorance inadvertently marketed by the news media.

First, the Dr stated outright falsehoods and junk medicine.

The link between Thimerosal and autism has been thoroughly investigated and no link whatsoever was found. In fact, when Thimerosal (a preservative with a safety track record 50 years or more long) was removed from childhood vaccines, the rate of autism went UP not down.

A couple who won some legal case to get compensation from the vaccine injury fund in the US claimed their child had this supposed, "mitochondrial dysfunction" and therefore the vaccine caused autism in that child. This was a neurologist who studied his own child and supposedly came up with data supporting this. Totally bogus and unethical. But because he was a neurologist, no one has challenged this claim, despite the absurdity of coming up with your own research data to back up your own lawsuit you stand to gain big bucks from. (See Eos' post)

This hypothesis has no credibility among legitimate researchers and experts in the field. There is no corroborating data. And the idea only certain kids are at risk from vaccines therefore we don't see the resulting damage in epidemiological analyses of vaccine injury data is an erroneous claim. Studies look at controls. That means any increase in injury with vaccine over baseline of those not vaccinated will show up if the sample size is large enough. It doesn't matter if those kids have some unique genetics because the same number of those affected kids would be in the control group.

Of course when MMR was shown not to be associated with autism, the anti-vaxers claimed Thimerosal was the problem. When Thimerosal was shown to be safe the anti-vaxers have now turned to these mysterious adjuncts and OM FSM, they have aluminum and formaldehyde in them, :eek: . Never mind your own body produces its own formaldehyde in larger amounts.

Adjuvants (http://www.scripps.edu/newsandviews/e_20031124/beutler.html) (the Dr called then adjuncts) are the fear du jour for vaccine fearmongers. Thimerosal is an additive, but not an 'adjunct'. The Dr's ignorance showed there though Hannity essentially started it.

The 2009H1N1 vaccine in the US is all going to be Thimerosal free, BTW. The whole discussion showed ignorance on the Dr's part. He doesn't even know what is in the 2009H1N1 vaccine.

His stats on the mercury were also false.


Next post: the Dr's practice sCAM.

[Skeptic Ginger]

One look at Dr Holtdorf's site and the bad medicine smell is hard to wash off it is so pervasive. This guy is scamming the sick, probably out of big bucks.

New Standard for the Treatment of Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia (http://www.hormoneandlongevitycenter.com/cfidsfibromyalgia/#8aa)....Component Two:
Mitochondrial Enhancement This component is actually integrated throughout the treatment program and tapered as the patient returns to normal functioning. The mitochondria are the energy producers of the cells and are critical for normal functioning. But they are shown to be poisoned in these conditions, leaving the cells starving for energy. Many things can poison the mitochondria including hormonal deficiencies, toxins and infections. Mitochondria dysfunction may be the common denominator and underlying mechanism that explains the symptoms of CFIDS/FM. In addition to the treatments above to rid the body of the offending agents, specific nutrients can be given to jump start the mitochondria and get the body functioning again. These can also be administered orally or via an intravenous route. ...

Component Four:
Treat the lnfectious Component There are multiple infections that either may be the cause of CFIDS/FM or contribute to the dysfunction. Because of the immune dysfunctions, there is often more than one infection that must be addressed. Potential pathogens include a variety of viruses such as Epstein Barr (EBV), Cytomegalovirus( CMV), Human Herpes Virus 6 (HHV6), Enteroviruses, such as Coxsackie, Echo, and Stealth virus. Bacterial infections include intracellular organisms such as mycoplasma, Chlamydia pneumonia, Borrelia burgdorferi (Lyme disease) and ehrlichia. A number of yeasts such as Candida and parasites must also be evaluated. Infections with many of the above organisms will also further suppress the immunity, often resulting in further infections with other organisms....

Component Six:
Maintenance Here is where the patient is weaned to just a few core medications and supplements to remain symptom free and maintain their health. Significant recovery or complete resolution of symptoms is the rule rather than the exception when a multifaceted treatment plan is instituted.There isn't a smiley with big enough eye roll to do this crap justice.

There is no credible research backing up any of this crap. Notice he doesn't say how he treats the supposed infections. And component 6 reveals they get people to buy maintenance doses of their snake oil.

These claims all have threads of popular unfounded claims such as the mitochondrial dysfunction. Such junk medicine has made the news in the past and despite having no legitimate science whatsoever behind the claims, the Dr is preying on people who don't know that and likely believe this research is being hidden from them by Big Pharma and government conspiracies. Yet they cannot see the real conspiracy to get their money is Dr Holtdorf's.

[Marc39]

Wash your hands frequently, you'll be fine.

The swine flu vaccine is filled with impurities that provoke inflammation, doing more harm than good.

[Eos of the Eons]

The swine flu vaccine is filled with impurities that provoke inflammation, doing more harm than good.
Is not. See my links in the previous post. It provokes an immune response with the antigen, the same antigen as the microbe that provokes an immune response... NOT impurities.

WTF is an "impurity" btw?

[Dymanic]

The 2009 H1N1 vaccine in the US is all going to be Thimerosal free, BTW.In fact, ALL of the 3.4 million doses in the intial round of vaccination will be live attenuated vaccine, which does not contain even trace amounts of thimerosal, so it's a complete non-issue there. As of the latest CDC press briefing (http://www.cdc.gov/media/transcripts/2009/t090918.htm) on September 18, they were still waiting to hear from the manufacturers on how many injectible doses would be available later on, but one gets the distinct sense that it might be a while before anything but live attenuated will be widely available. That's good news for those worried about thimerosal (or bad news, depending on how you look at it, because they'll have to come up with other explanations for opting out of the vax), but it's definitely bad news for the many people who are not good candidates for live vaccine (which, unfortunately, includes those most vulnerable to the disease).

[UnrepentantSinner]

Wash your hands frequently, you'll be fine.

Agreed, but there is some research showing H1N1 is spread more via aerosol (coughs, sneezing) and inhalation than tactile contact.

The swine flu vaccine is filled with impurities that provoke inflammation, doing more harm than good.

You mean like our colons are full of toxins? Like Eos, I'd like a definition of "impurities" please.

[Skeptic Ginger]

In fact, ALL of the 3.4 million doses in the intial round of vaccination will be live attenuated vaccine, which does not contain even trace amounts of thimerosal, so it's a complete non-issue there. As of the latest CDC press briefing (http://www.cdc.gov/media/transcripts/2009/t090918.htm) on September 18, they were still waiting to hear from the manufacturers on how many injectible doses would be available later on, but one gets the distinct sense that it might be a while before anything but live attenuated will be widely available. That's good news for those worried about thimerosal (or bad news, depending on how you look at it, because they'll have to come up with other explanations for opting out of the vax), but it's definitely bad news for the many people who are not good candidates for live vaccine (which, unfortunately, includes those most vulnerable to the disease).That's just because the live vaccine is ahead of the killed vaccine in production. In the long run the vast majority of vaccine will be the killed vaccine.

But it also appears the US versions won't have any adjuvants either. No Thimerosal, no adjuvants. The CDC is just caving in to the hysteria of a minority of anti-vaxers. It's a shame. We all have to pay more for the vaccine because of this unscientific nonsense and our wimpy politicians.

[Mojo]

WTF is an "impurity" btw?


I think they were what Jack D. Ripper was worried about. Have you ever seen a Commie drink a glass of water?

[Dymanic]

Correcting my earlier error, the most recent CDC update was on September 25:
http://www.cdc.gov/media/transcripts/2009/t090925.htm

"We know that although we'll have on the order of 40 plus million doses of various types of vaccine by mid October or late October, in the first couple of weeks of October, we're going to have much less than that. So there will be times when there are people who want to get vaccinated and can't be."

That may turn out to be a bit of an understatement. On the other hand, there may also be times when there are people we'd really like to see vaccinated, and who won't want to. Like health care workers, half of whom routinely take a pass on flu vaccination, and respond to the idea of mandatory vaccination with familiar references to guinea pigs and slippery slopes. Nothing like catching the flu from the person who gave you the shot (well, ok, choking to death on a vitamin pill, being trapped by a seatbelt in a burning car...)

While I'm at it, here's the W.H.O. press briefing on September 24 (we haven't seen one of those in quite a while):
http://www.who.int/mediacentre/pandemic_h1n1_presstranscript_2009_09_24.pdf

[Estellea]

That's just because the live vaccine is ahead of the killed vaccine in production. In the long run the vast majority of vaccine will be the killed vaccine.

But it also appears the US versions won't have any adjuvants either. No Thimerosal, no adjuvants. The CDC is just caving in to the hysteria of a minority of anti-vaxers. It's a shame. We all have to pay more for the vaccine because of this unscientific nonsense and our wimpy politicians.Something rather unusual would have to happen for the U.S. vaccines to be adjuvanted; they are being purchased as they can be added to the vaccine upon administration, but doubtful they will be needed. There will be some multidose vials with 25 mcg (the full dose) of mercury from CSL, Novartis, Sanofi Pasteur and maybe GSK (but that would probably be 5 mcg of mercury).

[Skeptic Ginger]

Something rather unusual would have to happen for the U.S. vaccines to be adjuvanted; they are being purchased as they can be added to the vaccine upon administration, but doubtful they will be needed. There will be some multidose vials with 25 mcg (the full dose) of mercury from CSL, Novartis, Sanofi Pasteur and maybe GSK (but that would probably be 5 mcg of mercury).Do you have any sources that say the vaccine producers are making multidose vials of the 2009H1N1 vaccine for the US market? My understanding is they are not.

[Dymanic]

Do you have any sources that say the vaccine producers are making multidose vials of the 2009H1N1 vaccine for the US market? My understanding is they are not.Science Mom is all over it:
http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2009/09/20092010-h1n1-vaccines-for-us.html

Looks to me like all four of the (so far) FDA approved manufacturers will be providing multidose vials (and GSK is saying "maybe").

[Dymanic]

Looks to me like all four of the (so far) FDA approved manufacturers will be providing multidose vials (and GSK is saying "maybe").My rested and re-caffeinated brain informs me: All four, except for Medimmune's FluMist, of course, which makes three of the four.

[JJM]

Here is another thoughtful post: http://scienceblogs.com/whitecoatunderground/2009/09/prevention_you_keep_using_that.php

[Skeptic Ginger]

Science Mom is all over it:
http://justthevax.blogspot.com/2009/09/20092010-h1n1-vaccines-for-us.html

Looks to me like all four of the (so far) FDA approved manufacturers will be providing multidose vials (and GSK is saying "maybe").This is good news. It was bugging me the CDC was giving in to the political pressure of the woos.

[Eos of the Eons]

I'm still bugging about Canada being left out of all this. Most provinces are only going to have regular flu vaccine for people over 65. I'll get my pandemic shot hopefully though. I doubt it will be any of this newfangled adjuvanted multidosed stuff though. Sighs. We is stuck in the old ages here, and have stupid non-peer reviewed bs about vaccines making the pandemic flu worse. Gak!

[Kuko 4000]

Wtf, a friend of mine who's a legitimate doctor just posted this video on Facebook. What the hell is going on. The mis-information available in internet is showing its teeth. I'm speechless. Why did he call squalene an adjunct? Is it another word for adjuvant or is Kent Holtorf really that clueless?

[Eos of the Eons]

Makes we wonder why doctors don't use legitimate sources of information. They don't get lab duty the way I had to in College, so perhaps they should to get a grasp of the scientific method. Hypothesis, testing with controls, and then examining the information!

They have been using squalene safely in Europe for a long time now, but even doctors here don't even know that, and the media plays up mercola's stupidity since a lot of people get that newsletter, and it doesn't stop there. Media releases get sent to the media, and they blindly publish it. Then the alties send out THEIR versions of the same crap misinformation. This garbage gets out before anyone asks actual legitimate sources for information on squalene, which is made by YOUR OWN LIVER!!! It's in your skin, in your sebum even. The facts are lost in the mountains of misinformation the alties put out. If only better people would catch on to that game and get real information out first, instead of having to try to get a word in edgewise after.

[HeyLeroy]

Wtf, a friend of mine who's a legitimate doctor just posted this video on Facebook. What the hell is going on. The mis-information available in internet is showing its teeth. I'm speechless. Why did he call squalene an adjunct? Is it another word for adjuvant or is Kent Holtorf really that clueless?

He's not clueless, he's working his angles.

Fear and ignorance.

He's a member of the American_Academy_of_Anti-Aging_Medicine, so he know a thing or two about soaking money.

[Eos of the Eons]

He's not clueless, he's working his angles.

Fear and ignorance.

He's a member of the American_Academy_of_Anti-Aging_Medicine, so he know a thing or two about soaking money.
Well, if he is selling something along with the BS, then for sure. Does he have a book or something?

[HeyLeroy]

He's big into the Bioidentical_hormone_replacement_therapy treatments.

[Skeptic Ginger]

...
The 2009H1N1 vaccine in the US is all going to be Thimerosal free, BTW. The whole discussion showed ignorance on the Dr's part. He doesn't even know what is in the 2009H1N1 vaccine. ....Updating this information, which did not turn out to be the case: All our vaccine is adjuvant free, but most of the injectable ended up as multi-dose vials with Thimerosal. In Sept, when I wrote that post, that was the prediction of the CDC. They were wrong.

[Eos of the Eons]

He's big into the Bioidentical_hormone_replacement_therapy treatments.
Oh, there you go. Flaky doctors making some money on the side. Gotta scare patients into "trusting" you over legitimate doctors. Fraccer.