Mindflex game?

[Thitical Crinker]

http://mindflexgames.com/

This looks really cool, but it sets off the woo alarm in me. Do we have the technology for this to work as claimed? If so, I want one.

[VespaGuy]

I just saw a commercial for a game called MindFlex (http://mindflexgames.com/). For some reason, this commercial seemed to set off my sketpical alarm. The object of the game is to move a ball through an obstacle course "with your mind". According to the website, this is how it works:

Whenever you concentrate, you generate brainwave activity. Mindflex uses a variation of EEG technology to "read" the intensity of these brainwaves via sensors positioned on your forehead and ears. These sensors do not generate or interfere with brainwaves, they only read what is already there.
Once the Mindflex headset recognizes your brainwaves, it transmits a signal to a fan within the console. This fan controls ball levitation. Your brainwaves, in turn, control the power of the fan. The more effectively you concentrate, the stronger the fan blows and the higher the ball floats. Relaxing your mind relaxes the fan's airflow, which lowers the ball.

After looking at the website, it appears that the only thing that you are mentally "controlling" is the intensity of the fan which controls the up/down movement; direction of the ball through the maze is all done manually.

So, my question is, is this possible? It all sounds a bit woo-ish to me. Is it possible that this works the way that they claim? Is it more likely that the machine is reading something else (such as heartrate?)?

[Professor Yaffle]

Is it an alpha wave thing?

http://mmspl.epfl.ch/webdav/site/mmspl/shared/BCI/publications/rapport_lucastschuor.pdf

They do a game controlled like this on a kids tv show my son watches http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain-Jitsu (black belt game).

[Cayvmann]

next gen Wii controllers???

[Professor Yaffle]

There's another thread on this in the science forum. Want me to merge them?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154896

[INRM]

High Density EEG's apparently can actually be used to gather a lot of information. I remember hearing about DARPA and the NSA using them for a variety of purposes.

I have no idea how reliable this system is, however.

[Thitical Crinker]

Sorry, didn't see the thread there. Merge at will.

Better yet, just dump this one.

[alfaniner]

As a matter of fact, just yesterday I got the Star Wars Jedi Trainer (at less than half price, on eBay). Pretty cool, and it works on the same principle, but only in one cylinder. It kind of reminds me of the Krell training device from Forbidden Planet. It wasn't just the game I got it for, but I wanted to examine how it worked because I want to experiment with the technology.

Now this is available at Wal-Mart? Geez, everyone will have them...

[dlorde]

So, my question is, is this possible? It all sounds a bit woo-ish to me. Is it possible that this works the way that they claim?
Yes, it's possible in a very simple way. A close-fitting headset and/or a number of electrodes on the scalp can pick up the gross sum of brain activity as electrical signals. There are a number of games controllers coming to market based on the principle, and there have been various relaxation training devices that use it as bio-feedback to encourage alpha wave states and so-on. It's necessarily a crude measure, and whether any of these systems are actually effective, I don't know, but I presume these devices are being introduced because the electronics to filter a useful signal out of the noise have become cheap enough to be commercially viable.

[blutoski]

Yes, it's possible in a very simple way. A close-fitting headset and/or a number of electrodes on the scalp can pick up the gross sum of brain activity as electrical signals. There are a number of games controllers coming to market based on the principle, and there have been various relaxation training devices that use it as bio-feedback to encourage alpha wave states and so-on. It's necessarily a crude measure, and whether any of these systems are actually effective, I don't know, but I presume these devices are being introduced because the electronics to filter a useful signal out of the noise have become cheap enough to be commercially viable.

I think this is the bottom line: the principle is legitemate, but the equipment may not work as advertised.

There's a hands-on demo at Vancouver's Science World where two people don electrode caps and 'duel' to move a pingpong ball across the table with their brain wave amplitude.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Sounds like Mindball that I posted (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=48046) about that back in 2005.

[INRM]

The one thing I don't like about this is that it might make technology that can ultimately be used to "read minds" (fMRI, IR/Near-IR helmet) more palatable to the public.

Most people when told about such technology like fMRI and such being used to determine a person's thoughts, usually are repulsed or horrified or at least express worries about it's misuse. And this is not just fear out of ignorance; it's a justified fear.

I don't think this is a good idea.

[jakesteele]

It is the real deal. I saw a vid of this and they showed how it is now being used to help quadriplegics able to control a computer with their minds to conversate by mentally writing on the screen. They also hooked up the reporter and he was able to do it, too.

Woo alarms are sometimes not all they're cracked up to be.

[bokonon]

Now this is available at Wal-Mart? Geez, everyone will have them...
I wonder if it will have applications for quadriplegics, or whether it will be more cumbersome than the eye focus / air flow methods being employed now.

ETA: Guess I should have read the whole thread before posting...

[Z]

A similar device was in use a few years ago to help severe ADHD kids learn to concentrate better. The idea was a simple video game that was totally hands-off, and the kids had to focus and concentrate to make the game play properly.

Of course, the technology is just going to get better and cheaper as time goes on. I'm looking forward to playing Spider Solitaire with thought-waves... :D

[INRM]

Jake Steele,

It is the real deal. I saw a vid of this and they showed how it is now being used to help quadriplegics able to control a computer with their minds to conversate by mentally writing on the screen. They also hooked up the reporter and he was able to do it, too.

From a practical standpoint, wouldn't it be better to develop means to be able to regenerate the neural pathways that allowed the individual to move? Isn't that one of the things stem-cell research was to look into?

Honestly developing technology that can "read" a person's mind strikes me as such a serious threat to privacy that part of me things that even if it would help quadraplegics, should it be developed? I mean this could be potentially used to eradicate the privacy of everybody to help a comparatively small number of unfortunate individuals.

I don't want to sound horribly insensitive here, and I don't believe this to be the case always, but perhaps sometimes the needs of the many have to outweigh the needs of the few (Yes it's a cheesy quote from Star Trek II, but it illustrates the point).


INRM

[jakesteele]

Jake Steele,



From a practical standpoint, wouldn't it be better to develop means to be able to regenerate the neural pathways that allowed the individual to move? Isn't that one of the things stem-cell research was to look into?

Honestly developing technology that can "read" a person's mind strikes me as such a serious threat to privacy that part of me things that even if it would help quadraplegics, should it be developed? I mean this could be potentially used to eradicate the privacy of everybody to help a comparatively small number of unfortunate individuals.

I don't want to sound horribly insensitive here, and I don't believe this to be the case always, but perhaps sometimes the needs of the many have to outweigh the needs of the few (Yes it's a cheesy quote from Star Trek II, but it illustrates the point).


INRM

I don't disagree with the first part of you post about neurological stimulation, but that sort of thing depends on which science gets their first.

I think you might be reading too much into the part about privacy. They are just giving commands to a computer like you and I are doing right now. His potential for invasion of privacy is the same as ours. This technology is an incredible tool for these unfortunate people. I hope Stephen Hawkins does this.

[Dorian Gray]

There's another thread on this in the science forum. Want me to merge them?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154896
There's probably a thread in the Media forum as well.

[alfaniner]

This device has as much ability to "read your mind" as a blood pressure cuff. It's just measuring changes in a certain brain wave (up or down, or more or less). That's it.

[bokonon]

Hell, if you're worried about somebody reading your mind, just make sure you're thinking about Victoria's Secret models jumping rope and having pillow fights. Everybody wins.

[INRM]

Jake Steele,

I think you might be reading too much into the part about privacy. They are just giving commands to a computer like you and I are doing right now.

Yes, but being thought controlled it has to be able to interpret what the user is thinking. This same technology could be used as an interrogation tool. Much in the way an FMRI can be used for that purpose.


INRM

[Big Les]

Any chance that it's actually working on the Galvanic Skin Response principle? If so, where the electrodes are attached would make little difference. I remember an interactive exhibit at a US museum that advanced you through a maze based upon this effect - you had to relax to make progress.

It's how the Scientology E-Meter "works".

[Jeff Corey]

Any chance that it's actually workinartfactg on the Galvanic Skin Response principle? If so, where the electrodes are attached would make little difference. I remember an interactive exhibit at a US museum that advanced you through a maze based upon this effect - you had to relax to make progress.

It's how the Scientology E-Meter "works".
It's more likely to be operant conditioning of skeletal muscle movements. Some of the early alpha wave conditioning studies were contaminated by that artifact.

[Ladewig]

Most people when told about such technology like fMRI and such being used to determine a person's thoughts, usually are repulsed or horrified or at least express worries about it's misuse.

Do you have a citation for this claim?

[Jeff Corey]

http://mindflexgames.com/

This looks really cool, but it sets off the woo alarm in me. Do we have the technology for this to work as claimed? If so, I want one.
I can't find details about what they actually monitor anywhere on the web. But for the simple functions that they can control, I would not need to monitor the EEG at all. Just simple muscle twitches at the loci of the sensors.

[INRM]

Ladewig,

Do you have a citation for this claim?

Well, most people I've talked to generally react that way.

[Jeff Corey]

Ladewig,



Well, most people I've talked to generally react that way.

Pick another group of people to talk to. Paranoia may be contagious.

[INRM]

Jeff Corey,

The groups of people I pick vary wildly. In location, background, religion, race and gender

[Mashuna]

Jeff Corey,

The groups of people I pick vary wildly. In location, background, religion, race and gender

That's just what they want you to think.

[Andrew Wiggin]

If I see this anywhere for a decent/clearance price I'll probably get a few, not because I think it would be interesting to play, but for the hacking potential. As far as the game it's self, it looked like a total snooze fest, but an EEG coupled to a motor controller has plenty of possibilities. Evil mad scientist possibilities.

A

[INRM]

Mashuna,

That's just what they want you to think.

Well, there were undoubtedly differences in race and gender. Most were white, there were a few hispanics, and blacks however, most were male but about 25 percent I'd guess (1 in 4) were female. These are the people who I have talked to in person.

I'm fairly outspoken about privacy and civil rights (most of this started in 2002 to 2004 largely in reaction to the increasingly horrifying actions of the Bush Administration such as the placing of activists on no-fly lists, the proposed Patriot II act which was being considered, to the torture of detainees at Abu Ghraib to the torture at Gitmo coming out) and I've brought up all kinds of stuff with people who I've talked to when politics entered the conversation both in person and online.

I'm not counting online though, as while I do sometimes engage in debates with people who have opposing views, I often generally talk to people with like-minded views.


INRM

[AvalonXQ]

They had a demonstration Mindflex unit at a convention I was at back in August. You have to wear the headband up against your forehead, and also a clip attached to an earlobe that is connected by a wire to the headband.
The force of the air against the ball definitely seemed to be controlled by whether or not we were focusing on it. I found "zoning out" enough to reduce the air pressure on the ball to be very difficult.