The case of the mysteriously matured mammae

[blauregen]

The following is a case study ( aka anecdotal evidence by an academic in the field ) regarding the possibilty to influence physiological functions by hypnosis.

Since breast-enhancement is a steady offer from dubious therapists, and the case states a progress from no breast development at all to very welldeveloped breasts in a timeframe of two months, I would like your opinion on the woo-ishness of this case.


.... Our third example is that of a normal 18-year-old girl who had not shown any evidence of breast development. She was very much distressed. Her father was a physician, and when she was 12 years old he had loaded her up with every kind of hormone imaginable. No breast development of any sort occurred. This was continued for three more years but was then terminated.

At 18 she was making an extremely schizoid adjustment, withdrawing completely. She has an extremely disagreeable, unpleasant mother whom she hated thoroughly. Her doctor-father brought her to me and asked “What can you do to keep my daughter from becoming schizophrenic?”
.
.
.
What did I do to that girl? I think that I brought about a change in physiological functioning. I certainly produced tremendous changes in her. She has well-developed breasts, she is very proud of herself, her schizoid state has been corrected, and I have her father’s statement that he himself has examined those breasts and that they are perfectly good breasts. Moreover I have the word of a number of young men who said they would really like to examine the breasts.

Source: http://www.scribd.com/doc/11320502/Erickson-Collected-Papers-Vol2


Edited for breach of Rule 4.

[Cainkane1]

My ex wife didn't develope either. It didn't make her unattractive just undeveloped. I thought she looked cute until I caught her doing adultery.

[fls]

The following is a case study ( aka anecdotal evidence by an academic in the field ) regarding the possibilty to influence physiological functions by hypnosis.

Since breast-enhancement is a steady offer from dubious therapists, and the case states a progress from no breast development at all to very welldeveloped breasts in a timeframe of two months, I would like your opinion on the woo-ishness of this case.

Is there some particular reason to think that it's not made up? The last two sentences look a bit suspicious.

Linda

[Professor Yaffle]

Where did you read it anyway? Have you got a link?

[Professor Yaffle]

Aha - Erickson:

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A17kw1/EricksonCompleteWork/resources/669.htm

[blauregen]

Aha - Erickson:

http://content.yudu.com/Library/A17kw1/EricksonCompleteWork/resources/669.htm

Spoil sport. I wanted opinions that weren't slanted by the knowledge of the source

But yes, and while he is and was controversial, i didn't know that Erickson was in the habit of academic fraud. On the other hand 4 years are a more usual timeframe from Tanner I to V, which he as a M.D. and father of daughters should know very well.

I just wondered whether he might have made up cases for publication, and if yes, why he didn't chose a more realistic timeframe.

[Professor Yaffle]

Oops, sorry - want me to delete the offending post and quote, before too many others read it?

[blauregen]

Oops, sorry - want me to delete the offending post and quote, before too many others read it.

No, with the correction of my excessive citation error, it is actually better if a link exists. :) I considered the amount of text quoted within the limits of fair use, but i am not familliar with the usual rules applied on this boards.

[Giggywig]

Why is the dad pumping a 12 year old full of hormones?

[shandyjan]

That story is wrong on so many levels I think it makes a bit of sick appear in your mouth....

[Dancing David]

It does not use the term schizoid appropriately.

1952 hypnosis, woo woo woo woo woooooo

[blauregen]

Why is the dad pumping a 12 year old full of hormones?

It isn't disclosed in the source. Maybe he diagnosed a delayed puberty in his capacity as a physician and hoped to kickstart it.

That story is wrong on so many levels I think it makes a bit of sick appear in your mouth....

It sounds suspicious because of the alleged rapid development coinciding with the explained intervention, after years of standstill, to me. On what other levels do you find it to be wrong?

It does not use the term schizoid appropriately.


That's interresting. From what little is disclosed of the girl's behavior and emotional state in the source, I would have thaught that schizoid - as coined by Bleuler - could be an appropriate description. What little Erickson discloses could even match the current DSM.

Thank you for your opinions so far.

[Dancing David]

That's interresting. From what little is disclosed of the girl's behavior and emotional state in the source, I would have thaught that schizoid - as coined by Bleuler - could be an appropriate description. What little Erickson discloses could even match the current DSM.



There is nowhere near enough information for a diagnosis.

[jasonpatterson]

Sorry, this seems like a poorly written example of an adolescent fantasy.

What kind of doctor would have loaded up his daughter with 'every hormone imaginable,' especially at 12 years old? It wouldn't be unusual at all for a girl to have not begun puberty by 12, just look at a group of 7th grade girls. If, for some reason, there was a good reason to start treatment, why would he have then stopped treatment 3 years later and done nothing (at least, nothing that was mentioned in the article) for an additional 3 years? If you read on in the paper a bit, it claims that the girl had been menstruating since age 13, so clearly she at least began puberty.

If you search the paper you can find two more cases of breast enhancement via hypnosis (page 220 of the linked source, page 203 of the text.) He claims to have caused breasts to grown breasts in less than a year with one and after a single session with another. In both cases there is excessively dramatic silliness that goes along with the story, and the second one includes a punchline, much like this one, and one of the others includes a claim that the girl had undergone "much experimental endocrinological therapy." Apparently lots of people are dumping huge amounts of untested hormones into girls to make their breasts grow...

It goes from hard to believe to pretty clearly false as you read it.

[Giggywig]

It isn't disclosed in the source. Maybe he diagnosed a delayed puberty in his capacity as a physician and hoped to kickstart it.
In my capacity as someone who can Google and find Wikipedia, I've discovered that the average age for the onset of puberty in girls is from 10 to 14 years old. The extreme measures seem... extreme.

[Professor Yaffle]

In girls, delayed puberty is defined as absence of breast development by age 13, a time lapse of more than 5 years from the beginning of breast growth to the first menstrual period, or failure to menstruate by age 16.

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec23/ch271/ch271b.html

[LissaLysikan]

Also reference Turner's Syndrome. The age can go much higher, and in many cases, without hormone therapy, never.

[blauregen]

Sorry, this seems like a poorly written example of an adolescent fantasy.

What kind of doctor would have loaded up his daughter with 'every hormone imaginable,' especially at 12 years old? It wouldn't be unusual at all for a girl to have not begun puberty by 12, just look at a group of 7th grade girls. If, for some reason, there was a good reason to start treatment, why would he have then stopped treatment 3 years later and done nothing (at least, nothing that was mentioned in the article) for an additional 3 years? If you read on in the paper a bit, it claims that the girl had been menstruating since age 13, so clearly she at least began puberty.

If you search the paper you can find two more cases of breast enhancement via hypnosis (page 220 of the linked source, page 203 of the text.) He claims to have caused breasts to grown breasts in less than a year with one and after a single session with another. In both cases there is excessively dramatic silliness that goes along with the story, and the second one includes a punchline, much like this one, and one of the others includes a claim that the girl had undergone "much experimental endocrinological therapy." Apparently lots of people are dumping huge amounts of untested hormones into girls to make their breasts grow...

It goes from hard to believe to pretty clearly false as you read it.

I didn't mind the punchlines. One of the reasons that Erickson was controverisal, i think, is that he used to tell his patience stories to give them ideas, and put them in scary or apparently silly situations to provoke different reactions to the problematic ones, which was a rather unconventional approach to psychiatry then. I simply assumed it had carried over into his presentation style.

As for experimental endocrinology. As far as i know hormone treatments were a relatively young development around 1950 to 1960 with for example pure testosterone having been isolated only around 20 years before. From this I think it seems possible that much of endocrinological therapy was still viewed as experimental.

I agree that starting hormone treatment on a 12 year old girl for lack of breast growth from the sources available now seems extreme. I just mentioned delayed puberty as a possible reason why something like this could have happened. The source doesn't state the reasons, and i sadly lack the ability to read the minds of concerned fathers from several decades ago, so I can't give a definite answer. :)

As for the rest, I agree. I get the impression that the initially discussed case is at least exaggerated to better illustrate the point he wished to make, although to be fair, in one of the latter cases you mentioned he is pretty explicit that no clear causal connection between the therapy and the physiological effect can be drawn and in another that no actual breast development can be asserted.

[JJM]

Sorry, this seems like a poorly written example of an adolescent fantasy. ...As fls noted, it seems contrived. I don't see any point in discussing a random story.

[blauregen]

As fls noted, it seems contrived. I don't see any point in discussing a random story.

That's ok. I came to a conclusion. Thank you all again for your input.

[Beerina]

Sorry, this seems like a poorly written example of an adolescent fantasy.

What kind of doctor would have loaded up his daughter with 'every hormone imaginable,' especially at 12 years old?


And more to the point, why didn't it work, since it was kept up for 3 years?

That suggests an issue with the quality of the article w.r.t. verifiability. I'm sure there are some females who are insensitive to female hormones, but wouldn't they be rather masculine to begin with? Most such "flat" females would, I would guess (but don't know) be that way due to a lack of that hormone's production, not insensitivity to it.

[blauregen]

And more to the point, why didn't it work, since it was kept up for 3 years?


The source doesn't give this information either. It is mentioned though that she started menstruating at age 13. Apparently she just lacked breast development.

I think the point Erickson tried to make by citing this case, is that psychological conditions can strongly influence physiological functions.

That suggests an issue with the quality of the article w.r.t. verifiability.


That is my problem with it. Erickson was widely known to play tricks on his patients in therapy and to tell them made-up stories to influence their behavorial patterns according to his understanding of unconscious processing. His work is mostly well regarded though, and he is widely recognized as one of the most influential hypnotherapists of the last century. From this I assumed that his case studies are likely a reliable source.

I always found it annoying when some of his more shady self-declared alumni used made-up stories - or as they would likely put it - therapeutic metaphor in lectures citing alleged unconscious learning as the reason.

Since nobody here considers even the possibility that the cited case could have actually happened as described, i have to allow for the possibility that Erickson wasn't completely honest in his lectures either, which miffs me a bit.

[Dancing David]

And highly regarded, by his time perhaps but not anymore, 'hypnotherapy' is on the junk heap of woo.

[blauregen]

And highly regarded, by his time perhaps but not anymore, 'hypnotherapy' is on the junk heap of woo.

You might wish to edit the following section in wikipedia according to your undoubtedly comprehensive and methodically correct research on the topic then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnotherapy#Research

[Darth Rotor]

Why is the dad pumping a 12 year old --
He's starting the Mommas and the Ppapas II?

If thinking you way into a larger cup size worked, methinks an aweful lot of 12-14 year old girls would suddenly start shopping for bigger bras next week.

DR

[JJM 777]

I have her father’s statement that he himself has examined those breasts and that they are perfectly good breasts. Moreover I have the word of a number of young men who said they would really like to examine the breasts.
:hb:

[blauregen]

If thinking you way into a larger cup size worked, methinks an aweful lot of 12-14 year old girls would suddenly start shopping for bigger bras next week.


That's a diversion from the initial question, but ok. :)

I really can't tell whether it is possible. There are a few studies from the 70's which seem supportive of this hypothesis. I don't know whether they are methodically flawed though. Why there aren't any more recent studies i don't know. I imagine that the topic could be considered frivolous in an academic clinical setting, and I doubt you would find a healtcare provider willing to pay for it, even if you could come up with a clearcut result.

The latter could prove to be difficult too, because your measurements could be influenced by the menstrual cycle, tone of the pectorals and weight-gain/weight-loss. And the hypothetical study would have to run for several months, during which your participants should avoid doing things like excessive butterflies or gaining or loosing weight, to not skew the results.

I don't see a method to reasonably blind such a test too.

What can be said is that it apparently sells. A google search with the keywords 'breast augmentation hypnosis' gives several pages of commercial offers. :)

[Dancing David]

You might wish to edit the following section in wikipedia according to your undoubtedly comprehensive and methodically correct research on the topic then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypnotherapy#Research

We can start a thread if you wish, I am not getting into the cess pool of psychobabble.

You will nore that the uses, alleged of hypno-therapy, and have very little to do with the woo style of Erickson.

Under 'Techniques' there are some questionable ones:
age regression
revivification
parts therapy
confusion
repetition
direct sugegstion
indirect suggestion
mental state
post hypnotic sugegstion
visualization as goal attainment

all of those seem to be very woo.

[JJM 777]

I understand why this thread is not in the "paranormal" section: this tongue-in-cheek report is not serious enough to qualify as "woo".

[blauregen]

We can start a thread if you wish, I am not getting into the cess pool of psychobabble.

A yes, the horrors of terminology. :D

But no. Here we would likely drift off into tangents from the start, and i am not enough into proselytizing for this. Thank you for pointing out the techniques-section though. I disagree that they aren't part of Erickson's work, if this is what you mean by 'Ericksonian woo'. The linked explanations look a little fuzzy though, so i will dig out a few citable and recent sources ( Weitzenhoffer comes to mind ) and see whether I can expand them over the next weeks.

If you want I can inform you once it is done, so you can add the part about why it is woo.

[Dancing David]

Um, unreplicated, vague defintions about vague processes, no double blinds, no metrics, just some quacks assertions.