Anyone in here have PTSD? I do.

[Cainkane1]

I was never in a war but I was in a bad car accident when I was much younger. I was basically unhurt but the person who caused the accident died and my passenger was permanently injured. A drunk hit my car on the passengers side destroying my car, injuring my friend and killing the drunk who hit me. I had only a few cuts.

Some years ago I started having flashbacks and was basically reliving my ordeal in my cubical at work. The sound of brakes, the smashing glass the overall terror of what had happened sometimes come back to me. My friend has problems walking to this day.

I sometimes have to take trazadone to sleep and busbar for my nerves. Anyone else going through something like this?

[SkeptiChick]

I suffer from PTSD as well, and have for quite some time. Mine isn't war related either. No, I'm not going to talk about what it is related to.

I was on a rather hefty dose of anti-anxiety medications for a while, but I've managed to get off them by using CBT techniques.

[Dancing David]

I have known people who had PTSD from all sorts of trauma, DV victims, rape victims, natural disasters, house fires, car accidents, robbery.

Very sad.

[casebro]

I had flashbacks one time. It happened while watching a musical make from "Little Women". Being a low budget community production, the choice of Little Women was limited, and their voices didn't harmonize well. The trio part gave me flash backs to growing up in a house with two sisters and a mother, all screaming at each other during synchronized PMS. I started laughing uncontrollably. Other patrons thought I was nuts, I guess I was for a minute or two.

[king catfish]

I do, a little. Not terribly severe. I don't really feel comfortable discussing details here, but you're not alone.

[Skeptic Ginger]

A professor of psychiatry gave a talk at our Seattle Skeptics meeting a few days ago about PTSD. It was very interesting. I wish there was a recording of it you could see.

He brought up a lot of very good points discussing whether one could just as well describe the mental health syndromes that make up PTSD using other psychiatric definitions. The question isn't, are people suffering, but is the label useful in directing treatment and identifying a unique problem? And does physical trauma or the threat of physical trauma somehow differ from other kinds of significant stressors?

[chillzero]

Me too. Not war related. Mostly under control these days.

[kellyb]

I think I have some undiscovered weirdo varient of it, where I get it fairly easily, but it fades on it's own over the course of a couple of years.
But I've had it a 3 times before, but I'm over all of them now.

[Cainkane1]

I suffer from PTSD as well, and have for quite some time. Mine isn't war related either. No, I'm not going to talk about what it is related to.

I was on a rather hefty dose of anti-anxiety medications for a while, but I've managed to get off them by using CBT techniques.
I know why and I'm sorry. Hugs.

[Dancing David]

For me personally my trauma did not lead to the classic symptoms of PTSD, but that may be because they were overwhelmed by the anxiety disorders that are part of my depression.

[Undesired Walrus]

I thought it was quite common that PTSD didn't necessarily involve flashbacks and obvious indicators that it was because of a past trauma.

[SkeptiChick]

I thought it was quite common that PTSD didn't necessarily involve flashbacks and obvious indicators that it was because of a past trauma.The DSM Criteria does actually require that there be some sort of intrusive recollection. That intrusive recollection can be as severe as a full on flashback (as in, actually thinking that you're right there re-living the trauma), or it can be as minor as simply reacting anxiously to a set of stimuli that are symbolic of a traumatic event.

More complete information here: http://ncptsd.kattare.com/ncmain/ncdocs/fact_shts/fs_dsm_iv_tr.html

In terms of how common full on flashbacks are... Just about everyone I've known with PTSD has experienced flashbacks at least once, if not more than that, myself included. The "reliving the trauma" kind of thing is pretty prevalent. A sound may trigger it, or a smell, or a small visual detail.

In terms of how common "obvious indicators that it was because of a past trauma" are... Well, how exactly does one end up with a diagnosis of PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) if there are no indicators that the source of stress is a past trauma? Unless you're speaking about a delayed response, in which case someone might not exhibit symptoms for days, weeks, months, or even years after the initial trauma?

[SkeptiChick]

I know why and I'm sorry. Hugs. :hug5

[Zeuzzz]

MDMA is what the army having been using in private trials to cure troops of what they see in battle; it works absolute wonders. The happy empathic mood MDMA can induce is a very unique state, and it is currently at phase 2 clinical trials and soon probably to be the treatment offered for all PTSD. It would have to be taken in conjunction with a therapist and they talk over all of the issues, They used to use it in psychiatric wards before it was made illegal.

Ecstasy is the key to treating PTSD (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article3850302.ece)

An Ecstasy tablet. That’s what it took to make Donna Kilgore feel alive again – that and the doctor who prescribed it. As the pill began to take effect, she giggled for the first time in ages. She felt warm and fuzzy, as if she was floating. The anxiety melted away. Gradually, it all became clear: the guilt, the anger, the shame.

Before, she’d been frozen, unable to feel anything but fear for 10 years. Touching her own arms was, she says, “like touching a corpse”. She was terrified, unable to respond to her loving husband or rock her baby to sleep. She couldn’t drive over bridges for fear of dying, was by turns uncontrollably angry and paralysed with numbness. When she spoke, she heard her voice as if it were miles away; her head felt detached from her body. “It was like living in a movie but watching myself through the camera lens,” she says. “I wasn’t real.”

Unknowingly, Donna, now 39, had post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). And she would become the first subject in a pioneering American research programme to test the effects of MDMA – otherwise known as the dancefloor drug Ecstasy – on PTSD sufferers.

[Dancing David]

file 404

[Roma]

I have some kind of "complex PTSD with a passive reaction", and is almost impossible to treat.

The weird part is that it was caused by several years of atrocious recovered memory therapy by a raving lunatic of a psychiatrist. Now I am morbidly afraid of any medication that could help and am suspicious of all people in the mental health care industry.

My teenaged daughter needed that kind of help a few years ago and when I was told that she would be seen at the psych hospital that I had been "treated" in I convinced myself that I could handle taking her there, after all I was a grown-up and she did need help.

Unfortunately taking her there and seeing my old nurse assigned to her just threw me right off the deep end. I told the pediatric psychiatrist who was a specialist in PTSD that bringing my daughter there was giving me PTSD but he didn't listen. I almost had a complete nervous breakdown after bringing her to just two of her appointments.
He then cancelled her therapy and said that I could never come back to that hospital.

Soooooo, as long as I stay away from therapists I will be fine I guess.

[Cainkane1]

I have some kind of "complex PTSD with a passive reaction", and is almost impossible to treat.

The weird part is that it was caused by several years of atrocious recovered memory therapy by a raving lunatic of a psychiatrist. Now I am morbidly afraid of any medication that could help and am suspicious of all people in the mental health care industry.

My teenaged daughter needed that kind of help a few years ago and when I was told that she would be seen at the psych hospital that I had been "treated" in I convinced myself that I could handle taking her there, after all I was a grown-up and she did need help.

Unfortunately taking her there and seeing my old nurse assigned to her just threw me right off the deep end. I told the pediatric psychiatrist who was a specialist in PTSD that bringing my daughter there was giving me PTSD but he didn't listen. I almost had a complete nervous breakdown after bringing her to just two of her appointments.
He then cancelled her therapy and said that I could never come back to that hospital.

Soooooo, as long as I stay away from therapists I will be fine I guess.
I sure hate to hear this. I had a bad experience with a few Psychiatrists in my day too. back in the 70's the Headshrinkers were too fond of Phenothyazides to suit me.. Your life just isn't worth living when your doing the Thorazine shuffle.

[Dancing David]

I have some kind of "complex PTSD with a passive reaction", and is almost impossible to treat.

The weird part is that it was caused by several years of atrocious recovered memory therapy by a raving lunatic of a psychiatrist. Now I am morbidly afraid of any medication that could help and am suspicious of all people in the mental health care industry.

My teenaged daughter needed that kind of help a few years ago and when I was told that she would be seen at the psych hospital that I had been "treated" in I convinced myself that I could handle taking her there, after all I was a grown-up and she did need help.

Unfortunately taking her there and seeing my old nurse assigned to her just threw me right off the deep end. I told the pediatric psychiatrist who was a specialist in PTSD that bringing my daughter there was giving me PTSD but he didn't listen. I almost had a complete nervous breakdown after bringing her to just two of her appointments.
He then cancelled her therapy and said that I could never come back to that hospital.

Soooooo, as long as I stay away from therapists I will be fine I guess.

:(

[Zeuzzz]

file 404


:confused: elaborate...

[Dancing David]

:confused: elaborate...

I can't open the article 404 file error.

Been down this path with you, you have small anecdotal and un blined studies that show the possibility of something.

Try showing a real research article rather than some press release. Yeah so some guy does something and it might have helped one person, maybe but without sample prorocols you can't really say.

[Zeuzzz]

I can't open the article 404 file error.

Been down this path with you, you have small anecdotal and un blined studies that show the possibility of something.

Try showing a real research article rather than some press release. Yeah so some guy does something and it might have helped one person, maybe but without sample prorocols you can't really say.


What do you want links to? The studies as they stand? Or general information on MDMA?

I guess that the kind of thing you dont want is a youtube vid :D

mNVGRBcDB0Q

Anyway before I rummage around for the current studies this should do for now:

http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/21/2/220
Is there a case for MDMA-assisted psychotherapy in the UK?
Ben Sessa

Psychopharmacology Unit, Dorothy Hodgkin Building, Bristol, UK

Much has been written in scientific and popular literature in recent years about the dangers surrounding the recreational use of the drug MDMA/ecstasy.

What is little known and understood however is the history of the apparently safe and effective use of MDMA as a therapeutic tool for psychotherapy. In this paper the author explores this history and describes the recent re-emergence of scientific interest in MDMA and other psychedelic drugs. There are currently several new double-blind randomised controlled trials underway re-visiting the subject. By acknowledging the limitations of this new research and emphasising the importance of exercising appropriate but realistic caution, the author asks that the medical profession consider a dispassionate and open-minded debate to examine whether MDMA might have a legitimate place as an adjunct to psychotherapy in modern psychiatric practice.


Also a small preliminary study that popped up: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19004414

[Zeuzzz]

For the most up to date research into this I suggest the MAPS association that are funding the studies, backed by the FDA. Look at this page under the "MAPS-Sponsored Clinical Trials: MDMA in the Treatment of PTSD" section for each countries trials. http://www.maps.org/mdma/

And this document outlines everything you will need to know about MDMA, its potential theraputic effects, and various other information very well:

A Clinical Plan for MDMA (Ecstasy)
in the Treatment of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD):
Partnering with the FDA (http://www.maps.org/research/mdmaplan.html)

by Rick Doblin, Ph.D.

Abstract: The FDA and the Spanish Ministry of Health have concluded that the risk/benefit ratio is favorable under certain circumstances for clinical studies investigating MDMA-assisted psychotherapy. Both agencies have approved pilot studies in chronic posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD) patients who have failed to obtain relief from at least one course of conventional treatment. These studies, the only ones in the world into the therapeutic use of MDMA, are being funded by a non-profit research and educational organization, the Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS, www.maps.org). A rationale is offered explaining why MAPS chose to focus its limited resources on MDMA, and also on PTSD patients. A Clinical Plan is elaborated for the conduct of the "adequate and well-controlled" trials necessary to evaluate the safety and efficacy of MDMA-assisted psychotherapy for PTSD, with the studies estimated to cost about $5 million dollars and to take about 5 years. The Clinical Plan has been developed, in part, through analysis of the studies conducted by Pfizer in its successful effort to have Zoloft approved by the FDA for use with PTSD patients, and through review of transcripts of the FDA's Psychopharmacologic Drugs Advisory Committee meeting that recommended approval of Zoloft for PTSD. [................]


On an anecdotal note; it works wonders :) My friend who has never got on well with or spoken properly to his dad all his life suddenly tried to speak properly to him when using MDMA at his house, and within an hour they were hugging and crying and they have so much happier ever since. Its like a much milder version of the woman in the above youtube video I posted who was raped and was suffering from severe PTSD, and was able to come to terms with what had happened and remember things that her mind had been blocking by surrounding the memories with an empathogenic glow.

On a less anecdotal note,

MDMA-Assisted Psychotherapy in the Treatment of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD)
Principal Investigator: Michael Mithoefer, MD, with co-therapist Ann Mithoefer, BSN
Location: Charleston, SC (USA)

MAPS’ flagship Phase 2 pilot study is the first-ever protocol evaluating MDMA’s therapeutic applications in clinical trials conducted under an FDA IND. Like all of MAPS’ psychedelic-assisted psychotherapy studies, the protocol is randomized, double-blind and placebo-controlled. All twenty-one subjects with treatment-resistant PTSD, as a result of sexual abuse, crime, or war, have completed the experimental treatment. The study was completed in September 2008 with remarkably promising results.

[Zeuzzz]

And I found the above abstract I quoted as a full 15 page VERY comprehensive evaluation of their studies and others. If your gonna read any, read this one.

MDMA-assisted psychotherapy using low doses in a small sample of women with chronic posttraumatic stress disorder (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6831/is_3_40/ai_n31466129/?tag=content;col1)
Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, Sept, 2008 by Jose Carlos Bouso, Rick Doblin, Magi Farre, Miguel Angel Alcazar, Gregorio Gomez-Jarabo

[Deranged]

I do, on and off. Imagine this scenario: Romeo and Juliet are madly in love, they cannot live without each other. Nothing matters much to Juliet other than Romeo who she takes for granted adores her . At the End, she swallows poison and, while passing into nothingness, she turns to look at her love and is devastated to find he is laughing at her as he walks away with someone half his age, kicking dirt in her face.
This is similar to my experience decades ago. Probably happens a lot now that I look back on it. Boys will be boys...

[Zeuzzz]

David, spoke to one of the scientists currently working on the MDMA for PTSD studies on a forum I frequent, and he had this to say:

I will do my best to determine what material can be publicly shared, however the majority of the testing with MDMA-PTSD treatments are still largely confidential, and cannot be shared with the greater public. I understand your position, and sympathize, as there is nothing more frustrating than being called out on a point that you know is correct, only to later find that it is very difficult to support your point with significant literature. Give me a few days and Ill see what I can dig up. In the meantime, check out the MAPS website for some immediate resources.

[Dancing David]

For the most up to date research into this I suggest the MAPS association that are funding the studies, backed by the FDA. Look at this page under the "MAPS-Sponsored Clinical Trials: MDMA in the Treatment of PTSD" section for each countries trials. http://www.maps.org/mdma/

And this document outlines everything you will need to know about MDMA, its potential theraputic effects, and various other information very well:

A Clinical Plan for MDMA (Ecstasy)
in the Treatment of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD):
Partnering with the FDA (http://www.maps.org/research/mdmaplan.html)


A study from 202 with six subjects.

There are other medications as well.

this is better than the last one you presented. But it seems to be mailnly a PR piece for the testing of MDA, which i am not opposed to.

It is your touting of this wonder drug that i object to. With little research absis.



On an anecdotal note; it works wonders :) My friend who has never got on well with or spoken properly to his dad all his life suddenly tried to speak properly to him when using MDMA at his house, and within an hour they were hugging and crying and they have so much happier ever since. Its like a much milder version of the woman in the above youtube video I posted who was raped and was suffering from severe PTSD, and was able to come to terms with what had happened and remember things that her mind had been blocking by surrounding the memories with an empathogenic glow.

Ah, yes, two anecdotes make a case, and the use of magic words without definition.


On a less anecdotal note,

And where is the paper?

[Dancing David]

And I found the above abstract I quoted as a full 15 page VERY comprehensive evaluation of their studies and others. If your gonna read any, read this one.

MDMA-assisted psychotherapy using low doses in a small sample of women with chronic posttraumatic stress disorder (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6831/is_3_40/ai_n31466129/?tag=content;col1)
Journal of Psychoactive Drugs, Sept, 2008 by Jose Carlos Bouso, Rick Doblin, Magi Farre, Miguel Angel Alcazar, Gregorio Gomez-Jarabo

Interesting ,yes. I do not object to people wanting to test Mda or Mdma but hardly a conclusive study.

This was the design purpose

As our main objective in this study was to assess the safety of a single psychotherapy session using one of five ascending doses of MDMA in patients with chronic PTSD

But little can be drawn from it.

And this and maps are hardly um, great sources. When they get published in PubMed , I will be more interested.

Especially with good double binding.

[Dancing David]

David, spoke to one of the scientists currently working on the MDMA for PTSD studies on a forum I frequent, and he had this to say:

Again I do not think they should not research it, however the should be some caution in stating things that are just vague possibilities and not really substantiated.

There are plenty of other treatments for PTSD as well.

[Zeuzzz]

There are plenty of other treatments for PTSD as well.


Okay.

Waiting. :)

[Zeuzzz]

You dont happen to be refering to beta blockers like propranolol would you?

[Roma]

I wish something could have helped my cousin's PTSD.
His years of service in the Canadian military intelligence in Afghanistan left him with terminal cancer and PTSD that is so severe that after two years of treatment for it in the U.S. he returned to Canada, sold everything he had, bought a van and became a travelling Pentecostal missionary.
He won't talk about anything, he just lives in his van and goes from town to town preaching.
He does say that he is happy though, so I guess that's good. His dad and brother also served over there and both died of cancer after coming back, maybe it's PTSD and grief.

[Zeuzzz]

He won't talk about anything


The memories are probably too painful or disturbing for him to bring them back up. Sometimes the mind actually physically blocks you from recalling really traumatic events as the emotions attatched to them are too strong.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record now, a couple of MDMA therapy sessions would likely work absolute wonders with a case like this. As the MDMA state induced enables the blocked memories to be remembered fully, abd the negative connections to them vanish on MDMA and you see the whole event from a happy, clear, truthfull perspective; rather than one clouded with interfering emotions and fear. Doing this, even if only once, can be amazingly benficial for the condition.

This puts it rather better than me: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_6831/is_3_40/ai_n31466129/?tag=content;col1
The therapeutic potential of MDMA consists in temporarily reducing or eliminating anxiety and fear, thus helping subjects gain access to their emotions and internal conflicts without the overwhelming fear normally associated with these emotions and memories. This ameliorative effect simultaneously helps subjects access these traumatic emotions and communicate them to a therapist, thus enhancing both the therapeutic alliance and the psychotherapeutic process (Greer & Tolbert 1998; Grinspoon & Bakalar 1986; Greer 1985). Since it enhances both introspection and the strength of the therapeutic alliance--the most important variables predicting therapeutic outcome (Alexander & Luborsky 1986)--MDMA seems an ideal tool for use in the psychotherapeutic process, especially for the treatment of PTSD (Bouso 2001).


... but since MDMA is currently illegal you wouldn't want to break the law of course (despite it being a safer drug than tobacco :rolleyes: ), so other less studied legal alternatives that produce the same effects like MDAI, AMT, Methylone, 5-MeO-DALT, etc are always options. MDAI is probably the best suited of the lot.

[Zeuzzz]

The abstract you asked where it was from is from http://www.maps.org/mdma/ under the US study section. The numerous other studies there are either complete, in process or waitining funding.


http://jop.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/23/4/389
How could MDMA (ecstasy) help anxiety disorders? A neurobiological rationale
PØ Johansen

Department of Psychology, Faculty of Social Sciences and Technology Management, Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU), Trondheim, Norway

TS Krebs

Department of Neuroscience, Faculty of Medicine, Norwegian University of Science and Technology (NTNU), Trondheim, Norway, krebs@ntnu.no

Abstract

Exposure therapy is known to be an effective treatment for anxiety disorders. Nevertheless, exposure is not used as much as it should be, and instead patients are often given supportive medications such as serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) and benzodiazepines, which may even interfere with the extinction learning that is the aim of treatment. Given that randomized controlled trials are now investigating a few doses of ±3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA, ‘ecstasy’) in combination with psychotherapy for treatment-resistant anxiety disorders, we would like to suggest the following three mechanisms for this potentially important new approach: 1) MDMA increases oxytocin levels, which may strengthen the therapeutic alliance; 2) MDMA increases ventromedial prefrontal activity and decreases amygdala activity, which may improve emotional regulation and decrease avoidance and 3) MDMA increases norepinephrine release and circulating cortisol levels, which may facilitate emotional engagement and enhance extinction of learned fear associations. Thus, MDMA has a combination of pharmacological effects that, in a therapeutic setting, could provide a balance of activating emotions while feeling safe and in control, as described in case reports of MDMA-augmented psychotherapy. Further clinical and preclinical studies of the therapeutic value of MDMA are indicated.

[Zeuzzz]

^ full text of the above here, where they examine PTSD as a specific example:

J Psychopharmacol OnlineFirst, published on March 9, 2009 as doi:10.1177/0269881109102787 http://www.maps.org/mdma/mdma_ptsd_jpsychopharm3_09.pdf

[Roma]

Thank-you for all of the information Zeuzzz, my cousin seems to have found a positive way to cope that is bringing him some peace in his dying days.

The very few words that he has told me are about his experiences while serving in Africa.
He just says "The children, the children". So I guess he is perfectly aware of what is bothering him but cannot bear to talk about it because it is too painful for him.
He couldn't help them and couldn't stop what was happening, do you remember Rawada ?
Anyway, I think he was probably suffering from PTSD well before he went to Afghanistan but whatever happened there wasn't diagnosed as PTSD until he was diagnosed with cancer probably from whatever he, his dad and brother were exposed to in Africa.

You'll never meet any man anywhere who wants to stop war more than my cousin.

[Zeuzzz]

That is very sad. War is a plague on humanity. The army should care for people like that by offering them comprehensive psychological and medical support. All the worlds armies are just as bad, brainwashing people to commit the most inhumain acts possible like murder, and when the persons 'spiritual karma' is shaken to the soul by what they have been made to do or witness they just ignore them or give them a really bad service. I expect that, as is often the case, as death approaches he will find it easier to come to terms with his experience and will open up, not just about that but probably many other things. Many people seem to do this when confronted with the thought of death. Whether they believe death is the end or not. I'm curious, how old is he if you wouldn't mind?

[Zeuzzz]

I'll get ripped into for this probably, but I bet that the PTSD was the main cause of the cancer, psychosomatically. If the PTSD was cured and the memories were able to be comed to terms with I bet the cancer would show signs of improvement. Thats just my opinion.

Sorry if its too late, my heart goes out to him.

[Dancing David]

Thank-you for all of the information Zeuzzz, my cousin seems to have found a positive way to cope that is bringing him some peace in his dying days.

The very few words that he has told me are about his experiences while serving in Africa.
He just says "The children, the children". So I guess he is perfectly aware of what is bothering him but cannot bear to talk about it because it is too painful for him.
He couldn't help them and couldn't stop what was happening, do you remember Rawada ?
Anyway, I think he was probably suffering from PTSD well before he went to Afghanistan but whatever happened there wasn't diagnosed as PTSD until he was diagnosed with cancer probably from whatever he, his dad and brother were exposed to in Africa.

You'll never meet any man anywhere who wants to stop war more than my cousin.

I have had a number of buddies who were combat vets, they are very unlikely to discuss the events of horror and trauma until they feel safe doing so. Some have felt a need to talk about it sooner than others.

So often they do not ever talk about it.

[Zeuzzz]

I have had a number of buddies who were combat vets, they are very unlikely to discuss the events of horror and trauma until they feel safe doing so. Some have felt a need to talk about it sooner than others.

So often they do not ever talk about it.


Purely curious on an anecdotal level; Did they live long lives or not? I think the stress of PTSD would a have a considerable effect on life expecancy.

[Roma]

Purely curious on an anecdotal level; Did they live long lives or not? I think the stress of PTSD would a have a considerable effect on life expecancy.

No, just in their 40's, but you have to consider what kind of chemicals including depleted whatnots that soldiers are exposed to.

I'm sure that the amount of stress soldiers are subjected to has an impact on their health too. I think it would help if they had more support both health and financial when they return.