9/11 Conspiracy Theory more "Mainstream" outside USA?

[mike3]

Hi.

I heard this claim in the comments on this video:
watch?v=syzKBBB_THE

that apparently the 9/11 Bomb "theories" are more "mainstream" outside USA, in this case in Europe, with "respected" scientific journals publishing papers on it. Is this really true or not, and do the papers actually have any good evidence in them (I'd tend to doubt it -- haven't seen anything good yet, but still...)? Now if it does not, does that mean those journals are actually really poor, then, or what?

[R.Mackey]

I've never heard of a "good" journal, foreign or domestic, that printed Truth Movement trash. The closest you're going to get would be something like Ahmadinejad and his Holocaust Denial forums, they might have a breakout session where everything gets blamed on Israel, that kind of thing.

Lots of foreign books, however. Thierry Meyssan's "The Big Lie" is perhaps the archetype of politically motivated conspiracy insanity. Not that it means anything at all from a scientific standpoint.

[fourtoe]

Welcome to the forum!

There isn't a single legit peer-reviewed article put out there by the TM. Not in the states and not in the rest of the world.

[UNLoVedRebel]

Hi.

I heard this claim in the comments on this video:
watch?v=syzKBBB_THE

that apparently the 9/11 Bomb "theories" are more "mainstream" outside USA, in this case in Europe, with "respected" scientific journals publishing papers on it. Is this really true or not, and do the papers actually have any good evidence in them (I'd tend to doubt it -- haven't seen anything good yet, but still...)? Now if it does not, does that mean those journals are actually really poor, then, or what?

I have yet to see a truther paper get published in a peer-reviewed scientific publication and I've done a lot of searching (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4355078&postcount=165). But I tend to notice truther "theories" get more attention in foreign media (i.e Australia, Germany)

[Scott Sommers]

Mike, I am also a relatively new member of JREFF. Theories of WTC controlled demolition get absolutely no coverage in East Asia. No one I know is even aware they exist. My wife's response to their existance was, "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard." Other Taiwanese, including scientists and engineers, I have spoken to about 911Truth have laughed at the idea. I have found no one locally who has one bit of sympathy for it.

As others have pointed out, there are no respectable scientific journals that have published 911 Truth crap, - not in the USA or anywhere else in the world. You can be sure that if one found its way into the British Journal of Engineering or the European Journal of Science Education, an army of 911 keyboard commandos would fill the Internet with news about it.

[Orphia Nay]

I have yet to see a truther paper get published in a peer-reviewed scientific publication and I've done a lot of searching (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=4355078&postcount=165). But I tend to notice truther "theories" get more attention in foreign media (i.e Australia, Germany)

I'm Australian, and I've only seen one (fairly critical) mention of truther threories in the print/online media here, and one screening of a film (In Plane Site) in the 4 years I've been aware of Da Twoof.

ETA: Oh, and the BBC WTC7 debunking film.

[UNLoVedRebel]

I'm Australian, and I've only seen one (fairly critical) mention of truther threories in the print/online media here, and one screening of a film (In Plane Site) in the 4 years I've been aware of Da Twoof.

ETA: Oh, and the BBC WTC7 debunking film.

Didn't The History Channel run Loose Change: An American Incoherent Internet Video?

[Orphia Nay]

Didn't The History Channel run Loose Change: An American Incoherent Internet Video?

Oh, yeah. Either that, or LC:FC. But that's on cable, so it doesn't count. :p ;)

[mike3]

Thank you for the responses. The thing that I was wondering about was this particular comment:

"Several peer-reviewed papers have been published - eg, "Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials" in a journal by the highly respected science publisher Springer Verlag, and "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe" by an international group of scientists in Bentham's chemical physics journal. The latter has been quite extensively and constructive discussed in European mainstream and science journals."

Do any of you know what's up with the "papers" mentioned there and that claim about that one having "been quite extensively and constructive discussed in European mainstream and science journals", which smells a little dubious?

[R.Mackey]

The Truthers have "published" three papers. Two of them are in Bentham which is about as notorious a pay-to-publish scheme as exists. The first of these makes no real claim other than to badmouth NIST, and contains no hypothesis and no data, no real substance at all. The second does contain data, but unfortunately that data shows exactly the opposite of what they claim, viz. that some dust samples that may or may not have come from the World Trade Center are a poor match to nanothermite and can only be explained as an ordinary combustible, probably paint.

The third is in the first ever issue of a magazine-style Journal called The Environmentalist, whose editors are a pollination expert and a Creationist Scientist respectively, and makes the rather foolish argument that the presence of high levels of 1,3-diphenylpropane and benzene can only be explained by "nanothermite," albiet a totally different form of nanothermite than they propose in the latter Bentham paper. Oh, and did I mention, these levels peaked in February, long after the collapse was over...

Several threads about them here: Try here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=110489), here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=120293), and here (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=139293) for a start. Many others.

And yes, this is the absolute best they can do.

[lionking]

I'm Australian, and I've only seen one (fairly critical) mention of truther threories in the print/online media here, and one screening of a film (In Plane Site) in the 4 years I've been aware of Da Twoof.

ETA: Oh, and the BBC WTC7 debunking film.

You beat me to it. Not a blip on the radar here, and I should add that many Australians died in 9/11, and it shook the entire nation to it's core, so it has nothing to do with apathy.

[grandthefttoaster]

Aren't the 9/11 conspiracies pretty big in Europe?

[Orphia Nay]

You beat me to it. Not a blip on the radar here, and I should add that many Australians died in 9/11, and it shook the entire nation to it's core, so it has nothing to do with apathy.

Well said.

Coincidentally, though, we could add Peter Bowditch's hilarious blog article about twoofers (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5145599&postcount=9) you just brought to my attention, but it's rather off the mainstream, isn't it?

[mike3]

The Truthers have "published" three papers. Two of them are in Bentham which is about as notorious a pay-to-publish scheme as exists. The first of these makes no real claim other than to badmouth NIST, and contains no hypothesis and no data, no real substance at all. The second does contain data, but unfortunately that data shows exactly the opposite of what they claim, viz. that some dust samples that may or may not have come from the World Trade Center are a poor match to nanothermite and can only be explained as an ordinary combustible, probably paint.

The third is in the first ever issue of a magazine-style Journal called The Environmentalist, whose editors are a pollination expert and a Creationist Scientist respectively, and makes the rather foolish argument that the presence of high levels of 1,3-diphenylpropane and benzene can only be explained by "nanothermite," albiet a totally different form of nanothermite than they propose in the latter Bentham paper. Oh, and did I mention, these levels peaked in February, long after the collapse was over...

Several threads about them here: Try <snip urls due to no url limit> for a start. Many others.

And yes, this is the absolute best they can do.

So then what's this stuff about that paper being published by the "highly respected science publisher"? Where are they getting that bit from?

Ooh, I just saw Steven Jones mentioned on one of these "papers". And he's been debunked...

[Architect]

Aren't the 9/11 conspiracies pretty big in Europe?

Speaking as a European, no.

[Wolrab]

So then what's this stuff about that paper being published by the "highly respected science publisher"? Where are they getting that bit from?

They are lying through their teeth, making it up, and pulling it out of their nether regions.

[bill smith]

So then what's this stuff about that paper being published by the "highly respected science publisher"? Where are they getting that bit from?

Ooh, I just saw Steven Jones mentioned on one of these "papers". And he's been debunked...

If you look around you may find that 9/11 information is just cascading now. These guys are sticking their fingers in the dam just as fast as they can but I am pleased to say that they are wasting their time. It's no longer a question of 'if'- it's just a question of 'when' and 'how'. Check these couple of links.
http://www.metroactive.com/metro/09.09.09/cover-0936.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aaf6NuKRHE&feature=player_embedded

[dafydd]

Aren't the 9/11 conspiracies pretty big in Europe?

In Belgium and Holland,no.I did a straw poll of friends and family and none of them were even interested.

[dtugg]

lol@bs

You twoofers have only got 79 days. You think that you'll prove anything by then? Yeah. Right.

[dafydd]

If you look around you may find that 9/11 information is just cascading now. These guys are sticking their fingers in the dam as fast as they can but I am pleased to say that they are wasting their time. It's no longer a question of 'if'- it's just a question of 'when' and 'how'. Check these couple of links.
http://www.metroactive.com/metro/09.09.09/cover-0936.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aaf6NuKRHE&feature=player_embedded

Look in a dictionary for the definition of cascading,Bill.

[ingoa]

I would say that most European people never heard about 9/11 CTs. Here it is neither "main" nor "stream".

[bill smith]

Look in a dictionary for the definition of cascading,Bill.

Cascade,v.....def...[Rush down in big quantities, like a cascade]

[bill smith]

lol@bs

You twoofers have only got 79 days. You think that you'll prove anything by then? Yeah. Right.
Just to be clear dtugg. What is going to happen in 79 days ?

[dtugg]

Just to be clear dtugg. What is going to happen in 79 days ?

I've told you already.

[bill smith]

I've told you already.

I can't remember.

[dtugg]

You're a liar.

[bill smith]

I would say that most European people never heard about 9/11 CTs. Here it is neither "main" nor "stream".

Rubbish. I was watching a kid the other day playing one of those online games. Nowadays they can talk to each other live. He was speaking with three teenagers...one in Germany. one in Switzerland and one in Norway. All four of them thought that 9/11 was an inside ejob. Not that they could give a toss really. the conversation only came up by chance.....But they knew...that much was clear.

[lionking]

Rubbish. I was watching a kid the other day playing one of those online games. Nowadays they can talk to each other live. He was speaking with three teenagers...one in Germany. one in Switzerland and one in Norway. All four of them thought that 9/11 was an inside ejob. Not that they could give a toss really. the conversation only came up by chance.....But they knew...that much was clear.
Wow, I'm convinced. Three kids playing online.

Oh and why don't you admit that you were playing and not "watching a kid". It's not shameful.

[Architect]

Rubbish. I was watching a kid the other day playing one of those online games. Nowadays they can talk to each other live. He was speaking with three teenagers...one in Germany. one in Switzerland and one in Norway. All four of them thought that 9/11 was an inside ejob. Not that they could give a toss really. the conversation only came up by chance.....But they knew...that much was clear.

Sorry, annecdotes aren't evidence. If you want to claim it's mainstream, you better come up with something verifiable. You know, like, facts and stuff?

[bill smith]

Sorry, annecdotes aren't evidence. If you want to claim it's mainstream, you better come up with something verifiable. You know, like, facts and stuff?

I am pretty unconcerned by whether you think Europeans are aware of the 9/11 inside job or not. They are or they are not. My oersuading you aither way does not make a blind bit of difference.

[Architect]

Bill

I'm sorry, but you were called for evidence rather than annecdote. Dressing it up in a soundbite won't help you. Now, do you have anything solid or is it just the usual bluster?

[bill smith]

Bill

I'm sorry, but you were called for evidence rather than annecdote. Dressing it up in a soundbite won't help you. Now, do you have anything solid or is it just the usual bluster?

As I said, it is not an area I concern myself with. I agree that it was an anecdote and did not indicate otherwise. You can take it in that vein or not as you please.

[Architect]

Bluster then. Fair enough. But next time, just be clear that you've nothing substantive to add, and save us the time, eh?

[Fjolle]

Well. The danish truth movement has been pretty active the last year. They have been around the country with Harrits presentation and demonstrating in the 2 largest cities (or whatever 3 people standing with a banner and distributing eric hufschmid material is called...). And actually they managed to get around 20 people to show up in Copenhagen on 9/11..

Now their membership count is 354, which equals a whopping 0.007% of the population... Also there is only like 20 active members in the movement.

[Architect]

Damned facts getting in the way of yet another 911 claim......

[bill smith]

[Sigh]...You idiots seem to think that the purpose of the Movement for Truth is to cause revolution in the streets. You could not be more wrong. Our function is to make certain that every living soul on the planet Earth knows that America carried out 9/11 itself. That's all that really counts. We will lead the people to the water and many and many of them will drink and be enlightened, but we cannot make them act on the knowledge.

We are already far advanced in that goal. Read any poll. 9/11 is completely on the map. More so than ever before.

That is not to assume that we will not be aiming for full accountability- we will... as you are already well aware. We will never stop.

Let's keep it civil please.

[Orphia Nay]

We are already far advanced in that goal. Read any poll. 9/11 is completely on the map. More so than ever before.

How about this poll?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154745

[bill smith]

How about this poll?

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=154745

Even though it's a rubbish poll I am satisfied. Those numbers will only go one way.

[dtugg]

We will never stop.

Sure you will. In 78 days.

[bill smith]

Sure you will. In 78 days.

i have no idea what you are talking about dtugg.

[dtugg]

Sure....

[beachnut]

Well. The danish truth movement has been pretty active the last year. They have been around the country with Harrits presentation and demonstrating in the 2 largest cities (or whatever 3 people standing with a banner and distributing eric hufschmid material is called...). And actually they managed to get around 20 people to show up in Copenhagen on 9/11..

Now their membership count is 354, which equals a whopping 0.007% of the population... Also there is only like 20 active members in the movement.

Massive nano-numbers if you are one of the few, the fringe 911 conspiracy theorists with delusions.

[TruthersLie]

So then what's this stuff about that paper being published by the "highly respected science publisher"? Where are they getting that bit from?

Ooh, I just saw Steven Jones mentioned on one of these "papers". And he's been debunked...

Hello Mike3.
Welcome to the forum.

Bentham publishers has a whole list of publications (like 80+), but they have a horrible reputation.

http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2009/06/hoax-exposes-incompetence-or-worse-at.html

http://www.earlham.edu/~peters/fos/2009/09/criticism-of-oa-publisher-bentham.html

My favorite part from the last one

Bentham Open’s emergence into scholarly publishing in 2007 has served mainly as a venue to publish research of questionable quality. The site has exploited the Open Access model for its own financial motives and flooded scholarly communication with a flurry of low quality and questionable research. By linking to sites such as Bentham Open, libraries are diluting scholarly research and making it more difficult for scholars to sort through the abundance of journal articles available

The claim by twoofs that it is a respected journal are completely bogus and way out of line. It is their attempt to come back with a "peer reviewed" journal article that isn't Journal of 9/11 Stundies.

Complete and utter crapola

[JAStewart]

Over in Britain, the BBC have destroyed the conspiracy quite a few times.

[Scott Sommers]

Thank you for the responses. The thing that I was wondering about was this particular comment:

"Several peer-reviewed papers have been published - eg, "Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials" in a journal by the highly respected science publisher Springer Verlag, and "Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe" by an international group of scientists in Bentham's chemical physics journal. The latter has been quite extensively and constructive discussed in European mainstream and science journals."

Do any of you know what's up with the "papers" mentioned there and that claim about that one having "been quite extensively and constructive discussed in European mainstream and science journals", which smells a little dubious?

Mike, to return to your original point about scientific publication. Publishing scientific papers is much like publishing other kinds of work. Some publisher are very selective and only release the highest quality work. Others will publish anything that's sent to them, as long as someone pays for it to be printed.

Steven Jones has published his work in journals that publish legitimate scientific work. However, these journals have no standard and, in the case of Open Chemical Physics Journal, appear to not even read submissions before they are published.

It's interesting for me to watch the way in which 911 Truth groups have been able to hijack the terminology and procedures of scientific discovery. Historically, this has been arcane and access limited to small groups of scientists working in isolation to produce work that most people would never see. 911 Truth groups have been successful in harnessing the fringe of this world as part of a marketing campaign for an idea with no scientific merit at all.

[Stellafane]

Hi.

I heard this claim in the comments on this video:
watch?v=syzKBBB_THE

that apparently the 9/11 Bomb "theories" are more "mainstream" outside USA, in this case in Europe, with "respected" scientific journals publishing papers on it. Is this really true or not, and do the papers actually have any good evidence in them (I'd tend to doubt it -- haven't seen anything good yet, but still...)? Now if it does not, does that mean those journals are actually really poor, then, or what?

Hi Mike. Welcome to the forum! I see your OP has been answered (thoroughly and on occasion, hilariously) so I don't need to add anything. But just for a bit of perspective: I have personally had more papers published in a respected, peer-reviewed journal that the entire collective Truther Movement has. And I know nothing about anything.

[catsmate1]

In Ireland I've met exactly one truther in person. And he was an Australian ex-hippie type, he bought into every other loony idea as well. He actually said David Icke was right about "many things".
He used to hang out in a shop I frequent and eventually became so irritating I decided to confront him. After I shredded his beliefs with reason he stormed out and hasn't been back.
And I got a discount off my purchases there.........

[Hans]

It might be worthwhile to check out the level of 911 material in Arabic, Farsi and Urdu. I suspect it might be higher than in NA and Europe.

[CHF]

9/11 truth is a non-issue here in Canada.

Toronto's TM group has 200+ members of which only 10-15 are active.

Their big 9/11 rally this year drew 25 people.

[TruthersLie]

It might be worthwhile to check out the level of 911 material in Arabic, Farsi and Urdu. I suspect it might be higher than in NA and Europe.

I hate to tell you, but there is NONE that are even remotely peer reviewed scientific papers....

oh there are lots of arabic "tabloids" which say 9/11 was done by the jews, of course some of these also say the jews are sending in bubble gum designed to make arabic women sluts and whores (look it up). So many of them are the caliber of the National Enquirer... but not one respected arabic publication has tried to refute any of the findings of NIST.

In fact, it is taught that 19 hijackers murdered 3,000 Americans and that UBL was the leader of Al Q.

I have personally met 2 of the families whose sons became hijackers from the UAE. The fathers and older brothers were extremely embarassed about his involvement and very apologetic. The younger cousins were generally pricks, and I even had one tell me his brother was a HERO because he killed 3,000 people.

[twinstead]

[Sigh]...You idiots seem to think that the purpose of the Movement for Truth is to cause revolution in the streets. You could not be more wrong. Our function is to make certain that every living soul on the planet Earth knows that America carried out 9/11 itself. That's all that really counts. We will lead the people to the water and many and many of them will drink and be enlightened, but we cannot make them act on the knowledge.

We are already far advanced in that goal. Read any poll. 9/11 is completely on the map. More so than ever before.

That is not to assume that we will not be aiming for full accountability- we will... as you are already well aware. We will never stop.

The fact that you are totally, embarrassingly wrong is what is keeping you from causing revolution in the streets. You keep inflating your importance and expressing your bluster and bravado--that's cool if that's what it takes for you to feel like you are a part of something, but we know the truth. You're a member of a cult you think is right that the rest of the world considers a lunatic fringe. Everything you say is totally expected from a cult member in a situation like that.

[Klimax]

Aren't the 9/11 conspiracies pretty big in Europe?

Czech Republic: At most tens... (unless just trolls)

[Horatius]

"Several peer-reviewed papers have been published - eg, "Environmental anomalies at the World Trade Center: evidence for energetic materials" in a journal by the highly respected science publisher Springer Verlag,

So then what's this stuff about that paper being published by the "highly respected science publisher"? Where are they getting that bit from?



Their definition of "highly respected" is a bit off. Springer Verlag publishes a huge number of journals; however, as can be seen in this thread:

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=120293

the one in question is one of the less-highly respected ones. They're basically trying to co-opt the reputation of other SV publications that have higher standards of quality.

And as others have noted, they can only do this with a paper that is largely irrelevant to the vast majority of truther claims, and which actually contradicts some of their other claims.

[Pardalis]

I'm sure 9/11 CTs are considered "established facts" in countries like Iran.

[bill smith]

In Ireland I've met exactly one truther in person. And he was an Australian ex-hippie type, he bought into every other loony idea as well. He actually said David Icke was right about "many things".
He used to hang out in a shop I frequent and eventually became so irritating I decided to confront him. After I shredded his beliefs with reason he stormed out and hasn't been back.
And I got a discount off my purchases there.........

I don't think Ive ever seen anyone who 'hangs out' in a shop. What ?.....like a cigarette shop or something ?

[triforcharity]

Cigar shop, coffee shop, internet cafe. etc etc etc.

[bill smith]

Cigar shop, coffee shop, internet cafe. etc etc etc.

A bit like when Lucky Larry implicated the 9/11 firemen in the conspiracy with his 'pull it ' remark you mean.

That's a bit like the Irish guy's Truther who 'hangs out in a cigar shop'

[triforcharity]

Not at all.

I mearly posed a few different places where people might hang out in a shop.

Oh, and Silverstein's quote is refering to the firefighters near WTC 7. But, of course, you dolts in the TM don't understand basic english.

[bill smith]

The fact that you are totally, embarrassingly wrong is what is keeping you from causing revolution in the streets. You keep inflating your importance and expressing your bluster and bravado--that's cool if that's what it takes for you to feel like you are a part of something, but we know the truth. You're a member of a cult you think is right that the rest of the world considers a lunatic fringe. Everything you say is totally expected from a cult member in a situation like that.

Hold onto that thought twinstead.

[bill smith]

Not at all.

I mearly posed a few different places where people might hang out in a shop.

Oh, and Silverstein's quote is refering to the firefighters near WTC 7. But, of course, you dolts in the TM don't understand basic english.

Ah...but we do understand English very well. That's your problem. Do I detect that the firefighters were not actually in the building now Tri ? Is that official ?. lol

[CompusMentus]

A bit like when Lucky Larry implicated the 9/11 firemen in the conspiracy with his 'pull it ' remark you mean.

That's a bit like the Irish guy's Truther who 'hangs out in a cigar shop'



That's a lot like you trying to get a rise (again)

Don't you ever consider actually contributing something worthwhile to the discussion here instead of the stream of inane trollisms?

Compus

[bill smith]

That's a lot like you trying to get a rise (again)

Don't you ever consider actually contributing something worthwhile to the discussion here instead of the stream of inane trollisms?

Compus

I used it as a device to illustrate how ridiculous the Irish guys statement was. No more no less. Anytime you want to have a specific 9/11 argument with me we can step over to the General Discussion thread.

[CompusMentus]

I used it as a device to illustrate how ridiculous the Irish guys statement was. No more no less. Anytime you want to have a specific 9/11 argument with me we can step over to the General Discussion thread.



That's it with you, you never argue specifics. You deal in generalisations, speculation and bad "facts". For instance your failure to condemn the "vicsims" drivel. It just adds to your troll CV.

Show me a post you've made, where you stated some thing specific about 9/11 events. We'll use the General Discussion thread as you request. Don't want to derail this thread any further.

Please, try and find something that hasn't been thoroughly debunked here already. That is, I really don't want to waste my time on nonsense like "pull it" "freefall" "thermite, thermate, super nanothermite" "DEW" etc etc.

Please bring something new to the table, something we can all have a good honest debate about.




Compus

[bill smith]

That's it with you, you never argue specifics. You deal in generalisations, speculation and bad "facts". For instance your failure to condemn the "vicsims" drivel. It just adds to your troll CV.

Show me a post you've made, where you stated some thing specific about 9/11 events. We'll use the General Discussion thread as you request. Don't want to derail this thread any further.

Please, try and find something that hasn't been thoroughly debunked here already. That is, I really don't want to waste my time on nonsense like "pull it" "freefall" "thermite, thermate, super nanothermite" "DEW" etc etc.

Please bring something new to the table, something we can all have a good honest debate about.




Compus

See you on the General Discussion thread shortly. I will be watching carefully for when you begin to obfuscate.

[The Platypus]

Our function is to make certain that every living soul on the planet Earth knows that America carried out 9/11 itself. That's all that really counts. We will lead the people to the water and many and many of them will drink and be enlightened, but we cannot make them act on the knowledge.

... We will never stop.

Common tactics of a cult, most cults use this exact same brainwashing on their members.

Christians main priority is to "spread the word" to the world, to get as many as they can to accept it and be "saved". Likewise, Muslims priority is to convince the world to follow them. The same with Jehovah's Witness', Mormons, Rev Moon, Scientology, Raelians, David Icke, 2012/end of the world cults, political cults such as the Tea Partiers, Ron Paulers, other conspiracy cults, etc, etc.

This is the common main priority of most cults. They must tell everyone, so that they can be "enlightened" by the "truth" that only they know. Only then can we all be saved from some imaginary evil force, group or entity, recruit! recruit! recruit!

Meanwhile, in every case, their "enlightenment" and their "boogiemen" are nothing but delusions...

[bill smith]

Common tactics of a cult, most cults use this exact same brainwashing on their members.

Christians main priority is to "spread the word" to the world, to get as many as they can to accept it and be "saved". Likewise, Muslims priority is to convince the world to follow them. The same with Jehovah's Witness', Mormons, Rev Moon, Scientology, Raelians, David Icke, 2012/end of the world cults, political cults such as the Tea Partiers, Ron Paulers, other conspiracy cults, etc, etc.

This is the common main priority of most cults. They must tell everyone, so that they can be "enlightened" by the "truth" that only they know. Only then can we all be saved from some imaginary evil force, group or entity, recruit! recruit! recruit!

Meanwhile, in every case, their "enlightenment" and their "boogiemen" are nothing but delusions...

Sounds pretty much like the Republican Party to me. lol

[beachnut]

[Sigh]...You idiots ...

We will never stop. A failed rant about apologizing for terrorists, and a promise to post lies forever. Everyone should set goals, and I am not surprised you set your goals to remain in and spread ignorance on 911.

A promise to remain in ignorance. Easier than learning physics or earning a degree in engineering. At least you found a goal you can achieve by doing nothing.

[funk de fino]

Last time I was in saudi, even the Saudi students were laghing at the 911 TM claims. I never came across it in any of the other muslim countries I have travelled to or even in Russia where they say it is mainstream. Most russians I meet are far to intelligent to fall for that guff.

As for europe. Only ever met one truther in real life and three on internet outiside 911 CT boards. If I ever speak about it to anyone, then the vast majority have never even heard of the 911TM. During one debate on a music website recently most of the other posters thought we were using a strange language and they did not understand any of it. They had a right old laugh when I brought up the Charlie Sheen fake interview though.

[HeyLeroy]

9/11 truth is a non-issue here in Canada.

Toronto's TM group has 200+ members of which only 10-15 are active.

Their big 9/11 rally this year drew 25 people.

Same down here in Windsor. I encounter the odd truther, but AFAIK they're not organizized in any way.

[Childlike Empress]

Just overheard a conversation on the train - between a fresh immigrant from Africa, a german 40-something business man and a german 60-something manager type. They discussed geopolitics with focus on Africa and LIHOP was a given. Just anectodal too, of course.

[dafydd]

Rubbish. I was watching a kid the other day playing one of those online games. Nowadays they can talk to each other live. He was speaking with three teenagers...one in Germany. one in Switzerland and one in Norway. All four of them thought that 9/11 was an inside ejob. Not that they could give a toss really. the conversation only came up by chance.....But they knew...that much was clear.

Teenagers.

[Zorglub]

Speaking for my sole observations in Sweden, maybe fifty to a hundred or so. And that is judging by the activity on different forums (so the numbers are not to be trusted at all).
We have these anarcho-syndicalist groups mostly made up by angry teenagers and old left-over revolutionaries from thes sixties. They usually protest against the meat industry, fur trade a s o. Never ever have I seen a truther openly amongst them. Wich would be supposed I think as they share the dislike of anything connected to the USA. They do smoke Marlboro though.
But I belive these leftist groups are not particulary fond of our truthers as the truthers can´t spell for **** and probably cannot read particulary good.
(That would explain why they like youtubevideos so much, few letters and loads of colourful pictures.)

The syndicalists are usually made up of university students who can read, write and do logical thinking to some extent. Therefore they tend to laugh at the "inside job" theories. Not even amongst groups with whom they share the same political belief are they welcome.

In real life? Never saw one.

[A W Smith]

Just overheard a conversation on the train - between a fresh immigrant from Africa, a german 40-something business man and a german 60-something manager type. They discussed geopolitics with focus on Africa and LIHOP was a given. Just anectodal too, of course.


No doubt they were on the way to a bank to deposit the check (http://home.rica.net/alphae/419coal/) they got from the African

[Longfellow]

Mike3, bill smith et alia like to make noise on internet forums such as this one about how many people believe their version of 'truth'. But what they can't seem to explain is the fact that the handful of followers of '9/11 truth' who have been banned here that still see the need to create multiple sock-puppets in order to continue posting their 'truth' here. If bill's version of reality were the correct one, surely genuine '9/11 truth movement' members would be flooding forums such as this demanding. . .well. . .something. Instead, we here at JREF are instead flooded by multiple sock-puppets of already banned 'truthers'. That's quite an insight to their thought processes, huh?

I would be very much surprised if the situation were not the same overseas.

[Childlike Empress]

Overseas, JREF is even more fringe than in the US.

[beachnut]

Overseas, JREF is even more fringe than in the US. Are you overseas? Or are you saying being skeptical about things is fringe and you would rather be in lock step with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? Do you have to fight against knowledge and skeptical thinking or you will be denied Internet rights by not holding up the banner of anti-intellectualism? We will not tell anyone you are JREF.

[mike3]

lol@bs

You twoofers have only got 79 days. You think that you'll prove anything by then? Yeah. Right.

I'm curious about this one too. What *is* supposed to happen after 79 days from the time of your post?

[McHrozni]

European here. I tried asking a about five people here and there in the past few years about 9/11, and almost everyone bought MIHOP of the LC 2nd Edition hook, line and stinker.
It's not exactly a large sample or a scientific study, but I do find it significant that I haven't asked anyone who knew about it and didn't believe it yet. It's fairly depressing, really, especially since everyone was either a university student or someone who's just finished his degree.

The most funny part was a guy with a degree in defence studies arguing in favor of a missile hitting the Pentagon. I asked him to explain how come the building didn't get turned inside out by the explosion, and he predicably fell silent. The debate ended at that point.
His final thesis was, in part, on light anti-tank and bunker-busting weapons during WW2. Sad, really.
His best friend is a structural engineer and he wouldn't discuss it in more than a few words. I think he supported the official version, though, and he stayed out of discussion almost entirely. Not many twoofers would.

I have a feeling that much of this support for da twoof is due to people not analysing the claims at all, perfering to just believe the US is evil and leave it at that. None of them would even think of going on a march in support of da twoof.

McHrozni

[Scott Sommers]

European here. I tried asking a about five people here and there in the past few years about 9/11, and almost everyone bought MIHOP of the LC 2nd Edition hook, line and stinker.
It's not exactly a large sample or a scientific study, but I do find it significant that I haven't asked anyone who knew about it and didn't believe it yet. It's fairly depressing, really, especially since everyone was either a university student or someone who's just finished his degree.

The most funny part was a guy with a degree in defence studies arguing in favor of a missile hitting the Pentagon. I asked him to explain how come the building didn't get turned inside out by the explosion, and he predicably fell silent. The debate ended at that point.
His final thesis was, in part, on light anti-tank and bunker-busting weapons during WW2. Sad, really.
His best friend is a structural engineer and he wouldn't discuss it in more than a few words. I think he supported the official version, though, and he stayed out of discussion almost entirely. Not many twoofers would.

I have a feeling that much of this support for da twoof is due to people not analysing the claims at all, perfering to just believe the US is evil and leave it at that. None of them would even think of going on a march in support of da twoof.

McHrozni

I have no idea what 'Europeans' you're talking about. I live overseas and almost all my friends are Europeans. In fact, at this moment, I'm talking with a friend who is Belgian and when I asked him about this, his reply was, "Who is he? The Pakistani from the local store?" I played rugby for many years with French players and while I never spoke with them directly about this, I never heard about this from any of them.

While I would never question your experience, I doubt it is in anyway representative.

[BigAl]

This blog seems to report non-US demonstrations, mostly which I assume is because as thin the International support is, the domestic support is even less.

http://truthaction.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5823&start=0

[McHrozni]

I have no idea what 'Europeans' you're talking about. I live overseas and almost all my friends are Europeans. In fact, at this moment, I'm talking with a friend who is Belgian and when I asked him about this, his reply was, "Who is he? The Pakistani from the local store?" I played rugby for many years with French players and while I never spoke with them directly about this, I never heard about this from any of them.

While I would never question your experience, I doubt it is in anyway representative.

The sample certainly is small, I agree, and evidence anecdotal. I do hope it is not representative :)
Notoriusly unreliable internet polls show something like 70% believe in the conspiracy theory around here, I'll see if I can find something scientific.

McHrozni

[funk de fino]

Overseas, JREF is even more fringe than in the US.

Have you studied the break down of NON US personnel in the member list for JREF?

Of course you haven't

[mike3]

European here. I tried asking a about five people here and there in the past few years about 9/11, and almost everyone bought MIHOP of the LC 2nd Edition hook, line and stinker.
It's not exactly a large sample or a scientific study, but I do find it significant that I haven't asked anyone who knew about it and didn't believe it yet. It's fairly depressing, really, especially since everyone was either a university student or someone who's just finished his degree.

The most funny part was a guy with a degree in defence studies arguing in favor of a missile hitting the Pentagon. I asked him to explain how come the building didn't get turned inside out by the explosion, and he predicably fell silent. The debate ended at that point.
His final thesis was, in part, on light anti-tank and bunker-busting weapons during WW2. Sad, really.
His best friend is a structural engineer and he wouldn't discuss it in more than a few words. I think he supported the official version, though, and he stayed out of discussion almost entirely. Not many twoofers would.

I have a feeling that much of this support for da twoof is due to people not analysing the claims at all, perfering to just believe the US is evil and leave it at that. None of them would even think of going on a march in support of da twoof.

McHrozni

So then perhaps the person who posted the posts I mentioned in my opener here had a similar experience and that just "confirmed" it for him. Which ones again goes to show that "appeals to majority" or even "appeals to large numbers", heck, "appeals" to "numbers" (of people) in general, are not good, logical arguments are are no substitute for good logical arguments. That that debator fell silent upon getting his missile theory critiqued buttresses the idea that their case really is quite weak. Rather the "numbers" would just be indicative of the overall anti-US sentiment around the globe, rather than being indicative of 9/11 Bomb theories having any firm basis in good scientific and logical principles and evidence.

[apathoid]

Just to be clear dtugg. What is going to happen in 79 days ?

Duhhh, that's when the first FEMA camp is being commisioned. Better get moving, truther.

[McHrozni]

Rather the "numbers" would just be indicative of the overall anti-US sentiment around the globe, rather than being indicative of 9/11 Bomb theories having any firm basis in good scientific and logical principles and evidence.

That would be my understanding, yes. Some people believe anything because it agrees with their preconceived notions of how the world looks like, accept anything that agrees with it and dismiss anything that doesn't. Confirmation bias at it's best, I'd say.

McHrozni

[dafydd]

Overseas, JREF is even more fringe than in the US.

True.Here in Belgium there are some websites run by nutters,but to most people I speak to it's old news,nobody is interested.I know one guy who believes the inside job theory,and he bases his belief on the fact that it happened on 9/11 and that is the emergency phone number in the USA,so he tells me.Maybe he should get together with Bill and explore that angle.

[Thunder]

I have no doubt that 9-11 conspiracy theories are very popular with America-haters all around the globe.

And yet, there is little talk among the former Soviet states and satellites about how Putin staged numerous false-flag apartment bombings around Moscow, leading to his election and the start of the second Chechen War.

[RedIbis]

For what it's worth I was in Portugal this summer, staying in a hotel on the beach just south of Lisbon. The hostess of the hotel was an extremely friendly woman who got by on broken English. She explained in no uncertain terms that she would not be speaking Spanish with me.

One morning I went down to the lobby where they had a few computers set up for guests to check email. It was right in front of the check in desk. I was looking at the pics of Obama at the All-Star game. She said, "are you happy with the new president?"
"Oh yes" I responded. "A big improvement over the last one."
"Oh, we agree. We were very happy Obama won. We did not like Bush. My husband is Italian and we have many friends in the US from Portugal. Everyone was always talking about Bush. Something funny is going on with him. There are too many questions about 9/11."

I turned away from the computer and asked her to repeat what she said. I wasn't sure if I was understanding her correctly.
"Too many questions. Those buildings came down too fast."
"I agree. There are many questions about the attacks."

Not much more was said on the subject. This was by far not the first time I've heard unsolicited comments about the attacks and possible US gov't involvement. You don't have to believe this, but I usually say very little. I'm always curious how much people know without thinking that they're talking to someone who has studied the attacks as much as I have.

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

[stateofgrace]

For what it's worth I was in Portugal this summer, staying in a hotel on the beach just south of Lisbon. The hostess of the hotel was an extremely friendly woman who got by on broken English. She explained in no uncertain terms that she would not be speaking Spanish with me.

One morning I went down to the lobby where they had a few computers set up for guests to check email. It was right in front of the check in desk. I was looking at the pics of Obama at the All-Star game. She said, "are you happy with the new president?"
"Oh yes" I responded. "A big improvement over the last one."
"Oh, we agree. We were very happy Obama won. We did not like Bush. My husband is Italian and we have many friends in the US from Portugal. Everyone was always talking about Bush. Something funny is going on with him. There are too many questions about 9/11."

I turned away from the computer and asked her to repeat what she said. I wasn't sure if I was understanding her correctly.
"Too many questions. Those buildings came down too fast."
"I agree. There are many questions about the attacks."

Not much more was said on the subject. This was by far not the first time I've heard unsolicited comments about the attacks and possible US gov't involvement. You don't have to believe this, but I usually say very little. I'm always curious how much people know without thinking that they're talking to someone who has studied the attacks as much as I have.

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

Well that's a rather nice story Red, thank you for sharing it with us; I hope you enjoyed your holiday. You had a chat with a hotel receptionist and this proves there is massive interest in 911 conspiracies across the planet. :rolleyes:

See how I did that Red? I didn’t ask any probing questions, I didn't call it a complete fabrication, and I didn't demand evidence or photographs to back up your story. I simply accepted it.

Any lessons to be learnt here, Red?

[DGM]

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

I'm still waiting to see or hear about "truth" in my area (Boston). Maybe everyone here is shy or "afraid" the bad guys will "get" them.;)

[Foolmewunz]

Why would a Portugese person not want to speak Spanish?

[Thunder]

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

I live in New York City. I go to bars, parties, and other places on a semi-regular basis.

I have not heard a 9-11 conspiracy theory mentioned in at least a year. And before that, 2 years.

Most New Yorkers do not care about this paranoid ********. We know who attacked us.

[Thunder]

Duhhh, that's when the first FEMA camp is being commisioned. Better get moving, truther.

Actually, New York's OEM has all the names ready and is gonna pounce on these fools in late November.

Hope the truthers enjoy their stay at Creedmore, Randal's Island, and North Brother Island.

:)

[BigAl]

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.


"Comes up" is a neutral phrase. The New Yorkers you refer to may be thinking "this foreigner is nuts." but be too polite to say so.

This quote sounds like it describes the International Truth Movement pretty well. Note that the author uses the definition of "truth" out of the dictionary, not as the "Half Truth Movement" does.

"A lie travels round the world, while Truth is putting on her boots. "
- Possibly said by Churchill, Twain or first by someone I never hraerd of.

[BigAl]

I live in New York City. I go to bars, parties, and other places on a semi-regular basis.

I have not heard a 9-11 conspiracy theory mentioned in at least a year. And before that, 2 years.

Most New Yorkers do not care about this paranoid ********. We know who attacked us.

What he said.

I live in the NYC suburbs surrounded by first responders and the families of victims of 9/11. There hasn't been a peep of "9/11" crap here. There are lots of fresh "In memory of ..." signs and bumper stickers. 20,000 people showed up in the rain the other day in memory of a specific fireman.

Interestingly, Badillo of the "New Investigation" initiative lives here, too. I wonder how much he speaks of it to his neighbors, some of which will be NYC firemen.

[TruthersLie]

For what it's worth I was in Portugal this summer, staying in a hotel on the beach just south of Lisbon. The hostess of the hotel was an extremely friendly woman who got by on broken English. She explained in no uncertain terms that she would not be speaking Spanish with me.

One morning I went down to the lobby where they had a few computers set up for guests to check email. It was right in front of the check in desk. I was looking at the pics of Obama at the All-Star game. She said, "are you happy with the new president?"
"Oh yes" I responded. "A big improvement over the last one."
"Oh, we agree. We were very happy Obama won. We did not like Bush. My husband is Italian and we have many friends in the US from Portugal. Everyone was always talking about Bush. Something funny is going on with him. There are too many questions about 9/11."

I turned away from the computer and asked her to repeat what she said. I wasn't sure if I was understanding her correctly.
"Too many questions. Those buildings came down too fast."
"I agree. There are many questions about the attacks."

Not much more was said on the subject. This was by far not the first time I've heard unsolicited comments about the attacks and possible US gov't involvement. You don't have to believe this, but I usually say very little. I'm always curious how much people know without thinking that they're talking to someone who has studied the attacks as much as I have.

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

Hey red. Should I behave like you did when reading Tri's story a couple of months back? Should I really?

Should we get into how much I disbelieve your story, how I'm sure it is BS and then "expose it for a fabrication?"

na... unlike you, I understand an anecdote is an anecdote... But I sure do believe that your story is a fabrication. (notice the difference?)

[triforcharity]

Why would a Portugese person not want to speak Spanish?



Just FYI, they speak Portugese, not spanish. Well, not technically.

[George152]

I have only come across one person here who actually 'believes' that 911 was a result of a conspiracy.
And he wasn't a New Zealander

[stateofgrace]

I have only come across one person here who actually 'believes' that 911 was a result of a conspiracy.
And he wasn't a New Zealander

He wasn't from Scotland.;)

[RedIbis]

Why would a Portugese person not want to speak Spanish?

I asked her that exact question since I found Portuguese similar to Spanish. She scrunched her face up and spit out, "We have the ocean in front of us and Spain like a beast on our neck throughout our whole history."

They seem to take pride in the fact that they don't speak Spanish. I found the Portuguese much more likely to speak English.

This was just a brief story to chime in when I've heard 9/11 Inside Job talk unsolicited. I wasn't claiming I was the victim of a felony.

[Thunder]

Interestingly, Badillo of the "New Investigation" initiative lives here, too. I wonder how much he speaks of it to his neighbors, some of which will be NYC firemen.

I know a few firefighters and a few cops. None of them have ever mentioned 9-11 theories to me.

And I think they would not react well to someone who mentioned them..so I don't ask.

[Foolmewunz]

Just FYI, they speak Portugese, not spanish. Well, not technically.

I gathered that. I was wondering, like the previous poster, if this hole in the story meant that it was a fabrication or just a slip. With Red's added tidbit for veracity, I'm now absolutely certain it's a fabrication. Why wouldn't that have been included in the original telling? It's quite interesting.

[Scott Sommers]

For what it's worth I was in Portugal this summer, staying in a hotel on the beach just south of Lisbon. The hostess of the hotel was an extremely friendly woman who got by on broken English. She explained in no uncertain terms that she would not be speaking Spanish with me.

One morning I went down to the lobby where they had a few computers set up for guests to check email. It was right in front of the check in desk. I was looking at the pics of Obama at the All-Star game. She said, "are you happy with the new president?"
"Oh yes" I responded. "A big improvement over the last one."
"Oh, we agree. We were very happy Obama won. We did not like Bush. My husband is Italian and we have many friends in the US from Portugal. Everyone was always talking about Bush. Something funny is going on with him. There are too many questions about 9/11."

I turned away from the computer and asked her to repeat what she said. I wasn't sure if I was understanding her correctly.
"Too many questions. Those buildings came down too fast."
"I agree. There are many questions about the attacks."

Not much more was said on the subject. This was by far not the first time I've heard unsolicited comments about the attacks and possible US gov't involvement. You don't have to believe this, but I usually say very little. I'm always curious how much people know without thinking that they're talking to someone who has studied the attacks as much as I have.

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

This is truely an amazing story. I can reach two conclusions from it. Conclsuion 1: Jobbers are everywhere. Millions of them, everywhere - except 911 Truth demonstrations. Conclusion 2: Crazy people gravitate to you like flies to - well you know what.

[Foolmewunz]

Speaking from China and Hong Kong and not Taiwan, I can tell you (as I've posted here long long ago), that not only do none of the locals even know what you're talking about if you bring up the 911 Conspiracy crap, neither do any of the American, Brit, Aussie, French, German or Canadian expats that I see every day. I stumbled across 911 Conspiracies just around the time I joined here - and was astonished that I'd never heard the nutsiness, so for a while, as I got sort of involved in debunking, I asked everyone I ran into what they thought of the idea - and to a person, they had never heard of it. I don't ask as much today, but when I do, I still get the same blank face in response.

I also hang out with the USN when the fleet's in for R&R. I like to keep in touch with the younger generation and most of the kids are real happy to meet up with an older American. I've run into a couple who are maybe LIHOP, but far more, "Those whackos!" The majority, though, haven't paid any attention to the CTs and don't really know the first thing about them.

Yeah, as Bill always tells us. Growing by leaps and bounds every day.... not!

[Slayhamlet]

For what it's worth I was in Portugal this summer, staying in a hotel on the beach just south of Lisbon. The hostess of the hotel was an extremely friendly woman who got by on broken English. She explained in no uncertain terms that she would not be speaking Spanish with me.

One morning I went down to the lobby where they had a few computers set up for guests to check email. It was right in front of the check in desk. I was looking at the pics of Obama at the All-Star game. She said, "are you happy with the new president?"
"Oh yes" I responded. "A big improvement over the last one."
"Oh, we agree. We were very happy Obama won. We did not like Bush. My husband is Italian and we have many friends in the US from Portugal. Everyone was always talking about Bush. Something funny is going on with him. There are too many questions about 9/11."

I turned away from the computer and asked her to repeat what she said. I wasn't sure if I was understanding her correctly.
"Too many questions. Those buildings came down too fast."
"I agree. There are many questions about the attacks."

Not much more was said on the subject. This was by far not the first time I've heard unsolicited comments about the attacks and possible US gov't involvement. You don't have to believe this, but I usually say very little. I'm always curious how much people know without thinking that they're talking to someone who has studied the attacks as much as I have.

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

This anecdote has been exposed as a lie.*

*going by Red Ibis's own standards.

[TruthersLie]

I asked her that exact question since I found Portuguese similar to Spanish. She scrunched her face up and spit out, "We have the ocean in front of us and Spain like a beast on our neck throughout our whole history."

They seem to take pride in the fact that they don't speak Spanish. I found the Portuguese much more likely to speak English.

This was just a brief story to chime in when I've heard 9/11 Inside Job talk unsolicited. I wasn't claiming I was the victim of a felony.

so does that mean it was "exposed as a fabrication?"

[Scott Sommers]

Speaking from China and Hong Kong and not Taiwan, I can tell you (as I've posted here long long ago), that not only do none of the locals even know what you're talking about if you bring up the 911 Conspiracy crap, neither do any of the American, Brit, Aussie, French, German or Canadian expats that I see every day. I stumbled across 911 Conspiracies just around the time I joined here - and was astonished that I'd never heard the nutsiness, so for a while, as I got sort of involved in debunking, I asked everyone I ran into what they thought of the idea - and to a person, they had never heard of it. I don't ask as much today, but when I do, I still get the same blank face in response.

I also hang out with the USN when the fleet's in for R&R. I like to keep in touch with the younger generation and most of the kids are real happy to meet up with an older American. I've run into a couple who are maybe LIHOP, but far more, "Those whackos!" The majority, though, haven't paid any attention to the CTs and don't really know the first thing about them.

Yeah, as Bill always tells us. Growing by leaps and bounds every day.... not!

We talked about this back when I joined JREF (http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=149263). I have never heard Taiwanese talk about this. My best friend is a construction engineer and he just laughs about the idea of CD. Back in 2001, he and I talked all about the WTC collapse as far as he was concerned, nothing that he could not understand had occurred. My wife, who is not an engineer, replied "That's the stupidest thing I've evr heard" when I told her some americans believe the US government blew up the WTC.

The only people here I have heard talk about 911 conspiracies are all white people and they all have other mental issues - I'm not exaggerating.

I have many friends who are EU citizens, particularly from Belgium, France and Germany. None of them have ever heard of a 911 conspiracy, and I have spoken directly about this. This has never come up in conversation unless I raised the point, although we frequently talk about immigration and race issues here and in Europe. My European friends here are probably better educated and more cosmopolitan that most, and that may explain some of this.

Almost all the only people I have heard talk about this Americans, one is American educated, and another is a follower of David Ike. As in the USA, pictures of 911 Truth demos have only a handful of participants. I have never seen one larger than 17 people. I doubt any but the raving loonies of Europe are at all interested or even care.

[apathoid]

For what it's worth I was in Portugal this summer, staying in a hotel on the beach just south of Lisbon. The hostess of the hotel was an extremely friendly woman who got by on broken English. She explained in no uncertain terms that she would not be speaking Spanish with me.

One morning I went down to the lobby where they had a few computers set up for guests to check email. It was right in front of the check in desk. I was looking at the pics of Obama at the All-Star game. She said, "are you happy with the new president?"
"Oh yes" I responded. "A big improvement over the last one."
"Oh, we agree. We were very happy Obama won. We did not like Bush. My husband is Italian and we have many friends in the US from Portugal. Everyone was always talking about Bush. Something funny is going on with him. There are too many questions about 9/11."

I turned away from the computer and asked her to repeat what she said. I wasn't sure if I was understanding her correctly.
"Too many questions. Those buildings came down too fast."
"I agree. There are many questions about the attacks."

Not much more was said on the subject. This was by far not the first time I've heard unsolicited comments about the attacks and possible US gov't involvement. You don't have to believe this, but I usually say very little. I'm always curious how much people know without thinking that they're talking to someone who has studied the attacks as much as I have.

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.


There are too many unanswered questions about this anecdote. Conversations just don't go down that way; I want a new investigation.

[apathoid]

See how I did that Red? I didn’t ask any probing questions, I didn't call it a complete fabrication, and I didn't demand evidence or photographs to back up your story. I simply accepted it.



Speak for yourself! :p

ASK QUESTIONS, DEMAND ANSWERS

[Scott Sommers]

Just today, I was speaking with my Belgian source. He asked me if I had heard back from the person who claimed 911 Truth claims were better received in Europe.

[cisco]

So, really, what happens in 73 days (or however many it would be now)?

[dtugg]

What apathoid said.

[cisco]

Huh?

[stateofgrace]

Speak for yourself! :p

ASK QUESTIONS, DEMAND ANSWERS

Never one to kick a man when he is already down, besides it's not as though Red as an history of making stuff up. :rolleyes:

[RedIbis]

Never one to kick a man when he is already down, besides it's not as though Red as an history of making stuff up. :rolleyes:

What have I made up?

[tsig]

For what it's worth I was in Portugal this summer, staying in a hotel on the beach just south of Lisbon. The hostess of the hotel was an extremely friendly woman who got by on broken English. She explained in no uncertain terms that she would not be speaking Spanish with me.

One morning I went down to the lobby where they had a few computers set up for guests to check email. It was right in front of the check in desk. I was looking at the pics of Obama at the All-Star game. She said, "are you happy with the new president?"
"Oh yes" I responded. "A big improvement over the last one."
"Oh, we agree. We were very happy Obama won. We did not like Bush. My husband is Italian and we have many friends in the US from Portugal. Everyone was always talking about Bush. Something funny is going on with him. There are too many questions about 9/11."

I turned away from the computer and asked her to repeat what she said. I wasn't sure if I was understanding her correctly.
"Too many questions. Those buildings came down too fast."
"I agree. There are many questions about the attacks."

Not much more was said on the subject. This was by far not the first time I've heard unsolicited comments about the attacks and possible US gov't involvement. You don't have to believe this, but I usually say very little. I'm always curious how much people know without thinking that they're talking to someone who has studied the attacks as much as I have.

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

Prove every detail or I will be forced to call it a complete fabrication.

[RedIbis]

Prove every detail or I will be forced to call it a complete fabrication.

It's not like I was claiming I was the victim of a felony by a Twoofie, a favorite target around here, for the purpose of rousing the rabble and recounting violence fantasies.

False analogy noted.

[stateofgrace]

What have I made up?

For a start, the story above, unless you completely verify it. So go ahead verify it, completely, show me that my trust in you is not misplaced.

We can of course move onto the other crap you make up , “like exposed as a complete fabrication”, fire-fighters hearing sounds of explosions and pretending it supports your delusions it was caused by explosives, , Gen Myers who you accused on this very forum of being involved in mass murder, oh and there is a thread about the Pentagon waiting for you that you seem to have run away from.

When you are ready, Red, start verifying some of your stuff and then guys like me won’t need to think you just make stuff up.

[dtugg]

What have I made up?

For example, you made up that Tri's story about a twoofer harassing him and getting arrested for it was, "exposed as a fabrication."

[dtugg]

Huh?

post #84

[RedIbis]

For example, you made up that Tri's story about a twoofer harassing him and getting arrested for it was, "exposed as a fabrication."

He's never been able to support it. I know that must irk you.

[dtugg]

He's never been able to support it.

So? You still made up that it was "exposed as a fabrication."

I know that must irk you.

I couldn't care less.

[cisco]

post #84

So it's a joke?

[archis]

Well in east Europe i think the biggest part of people don't believe in official theory (observed in forums). I think it is becouse there is lot's of propoganda of conspiracy theories like Zeitgeist and in the same time there is no propoganda who could stand up aginst conspiracy claims. People arent critical enough to what they see. They are so sure about the consparacy that often discribe opponents as blind morons. Well i thought the situation in this forum will be similar, but surprisinglly its vise versa. As far as I see the sceptic side is blamed and named as thruthers. Is thruther a swear word? I am personally in few things sceptic about 911.

[A W Smith]

<snipped story exposed as fabrication>

that's funny Dirty Bird. My wife is Portuguese and her brother who visited GZ back in 06 and personally argued with Steven Jones was the one who notified me there was a bunch of truth movement morons at GZ. Her entire extended family thinks they are a bunch of jackasses.

[lapman]

Well in east Europe i think the biggest part of people don't believe in official theory (observed in forums). I think it is becouse there is lot's of propoganda of conspiracy theories like Zeitgeist and in the same time there is no propoganda who could stand up aginst conspiracy claims. People arent critical enough to what they see. They are so sure about the consparacy that often discribe opponents as blind morons. Well i thought the situation in this forum will be similar, but surprisinglly its vise versa. As far as I see the sceptic side is blamed and named as thruthers. Is thruther a swear word? I am personally in few things sceptic about 911.
There is a difference between a skeptic and a truther. A skeptic will research what they believe is wrong and will modify their beliefs based on the facts they find. A truther blindly believes in the conspiracy theories no matter what. They ignore the facts and will hold on to anything that supports thier belief system. You claim to be a skeptic. What part of the "official story" do you have a problem with? Are you willing to change your opinion if you are shown to be wrong?

[RedIbis]

that's funny Dirty Bird. My wife is Portuguese and her brother who visited GZ back in 06 and personally argued with Steven Jones was the one who notified me there was a bunch of truth movement morons at GZ. Her entire extended family thinks they are a bunch of jackasses.

Namecalling is against the rules here. I've never reported anyone for anything, but I thought you might want to avoid that very unpersuasive tactic.

Also, your post is illogical, as I was never suggesting that all Portuguese believe the same thing, nor should you. I was recounting one conversation with one person, to illustrate that this subject does come up unsolicited, in very ordinary situations with ordinary people.

[RedIbis]

There is a difference between a skeptic and a truther. A skeptic will research what they believe is wrong and will modify their beliefs based on the facts they find. A truther blindly believes in the conspiracy theories no matter what. They ignore the facts and will hold on to anything that supports thier belief system. You claim to be a skeptic. What part of the "official story" do you have a problem with? Are you willing to change your opinion if you are shown to be wrong?

There's also a very big difference between a skeptic and a debunker.

[lapman]

There's also a very big difference between a skeptic and a debunker.
Not nearly as big a difference.

[TruthersLie]

Well in east Europe i think the biggest part of people don't believe in official theory (observed in forums). I think it is becouse there is lot's of propoganda of conspiracy theories like Zeitgeist and in the same time there is no propoganda who could stand up aginst conspiracy claims. People arent critical enough to what they see. They are so sure about the consparacy that often discribe opponents as blind morons. Well i thought the situation in this forum will be similar, but surprisinglly its vise versa. As far as I see the sceptic side is blamed and named as thruthers. Is thruther a swear word? I am personally in few things sceptic about 911.

YOu can be skeptical about specific things in 9/11 without being a "truther." Do the reports show EXACTLY what happened? no they don't. Are there pieces which could be further fleshed out about the narrative of 911? Sure there are.

But you see (or maybe you don't) 99% of ALL of the claims made by the Truth movement is bs, lies, datamined quotes which when read in context do not support the truth movement.

The difference between a skeptic and a truther is that skeptics
1. Do REAL research and track down sources and then read them for comprehension.
2. Can change their minds based on the evidence.

Truthers OTOH
1. datamine quotes and take things WAY out of context (see the 118 firefighters quotes about "explosives")
2. Change the evidence to fit their preconceived notions.

IF you are a skeptic and have questions, feel free to ask. But when given an answer, then go and LOOK IT UP for yourself.

[TruthersLie]

Namecalling is against the rules here. I've never reported anyone for anything, but I thought you might want to avoid that very unpersuasive tactic.

Also, your post is illogical, as I was never suggesting that all Portuguese believe the same thing, nor should you. I was recounting one conversation with one person, to illustrate that this subject does come up unsolicited, in very ordinary situations with ordinary people.

so was your story "exposed as a fabrication?" OR was it an anecdote?
Because I prefer to believe it was the latter... yet with your behavior towards others, I really want to go with the former.

[funk de fino]

For what it's worth I was in Portugal this summer, staying in a hotel on the beach just south of Lisbon. The hostess of the hotel was an extremely friendly woman who got by on broken English. She explained in no uncertain terms that she would not be speaking Spanish with me.

One morning I went down to the lobby where they had a few computers set up for guests to check email. It was right in front of the check in desk. I was looking at the pics of Obama at the All-Star game. She said, "are you happy with the new president?"
"Oh yes" I responded. "A big improvement over the last one."
"Oh, we agree. We were very happy Obama won. We did not like Bush. My husband is Italian and we have many friends in the US from Portugal. Everyone was always talking about Bush. Something funny is going on with him. There are too many questions about 9/11."

I turned away from the computer and asked her to repeat what she said. I wasn't sure if I was understanding her correctly.
"Too many questions. Those buildings came down too fast."
"I agree. There are many questions about the attacks."

Not much more was said on the subject. This was by far not the first time I've heard unsolicited comments about the attacks and possible US gov't involvement. You don't have to believe this, but I usually say very little. I'm always curious how much people know without thinking that they're talking to someone who has studied the attacks as much as I have.

And it's certainly not just outside the US. There are a lot of New Yorkers around here and the subject comes up in pizza joints, bars, more often than a lot of people would be comfortable realizing.

I have been to Portugal many many times and have not seen or heard of 911 off the internet there.

Nice story. Not a lie IMO, but irrelevant none the less.

[Captain.Sassy]

I am pretty unconcerned by whether you think Europeans are aware of the 9/11 inside job or not. They are or they are not. My oersuading you aither way does not make a blind bit of difference.

Good grief man why are you even on the internet then?

[mike3]

so was your story "exposed as a fabrication?" OR was it an anecdote?
Because I prefer to believe it was the latter... yet with your behavior towards others, I really want to go with the former.

What sort of "behavior" is this? I don't see it.

[jhunter1163]

Avery's latest opus is at #75,263 in the sales rankings in the UK. Draw your own conclusions about how "mainstream" it is there.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

I'm often in Slovenia, and I can get quite disappointed there as to how many people there who I never would suspect of believing in truthy-truth believe in truthy-truth. I'm talking science writers here, and other science professionals. And they're a bit different than U.S. truthers in that they're really not the type of people who would otherwise believe in Bigfoot or UFO abductions or astrology (running counter to the crank magnetism of domestic truthers). You'd never expect that such people would hold such beliefs. I understand that Eastern Europeans have a historical affinity for conspiracy theories (a proposition that I think will stand up to scrutiny), but there's really no excuse with the advent of the Internet.

[McHrozni]

I'm often in Slovenia, and I can get quite disappointed there as to how many people there who I never would suspect of believing in truthy-truth believe in truthy-truth. I'm talking science writers here, and other science professionals.

Do tell. Anyone in particular you have in mind?

Did we have this discussion already on SLC blog, by the way? I use my initials there ("TV" ... gotta love my parents).

McHrozni