Mr. Lloyd Pye and the Starchild Skull

[Squid]

Hello, everyone. I'm asking for some help, if people don't mind.

I'm a member of a forum at Mania.com, which is a site dedicated to things like comic books, movies, games... mostly sci fi/fantasy/horror based. They offer regular columns, written by guest commentators.

One of their columns, "23.5 Degrees" is angled toward the usual woo. Well, Mr. Lloyd Pye, a man who owns an unusually deformed human skull, is trying to prove to the world that the skull is of an alien/human hybrid. I've been trying to debate him civilly, but I'm not getting anywhere. I'm an almost alone skeptic surrounded by woo believers.

What I'm asking for is for people, regardless of what you believe, to come over to that thread and post about it, in a civil manner. I really could use people who know more about biology, anthropology, genetics, and similar topics than I do. ( I can't refute some of his claims because I lack the proper knowledge to do so; therefore, I sound somewhat like a fool, and definitely a lone voice shouting into the wind. )

I can't post a direct link yet, so here's how to find the column for those who are interested. Go to mania.com, find the search bar, type in "Mission Starchild Part Deux" and hit enter. You can find the thread at the top of the returned searches.

Thank you!

Squid

[GT/CS]

This site seems to be what you are looking for.

http://www.theness.com/the-starchild-project/

[Alice Shortcake]

Oh, FFS. What are the chances of two species that evolved on different planets being able to interbreed? This has to be one of the silliest woo ideas out there!

[Squid]

This site seems to be what you are looking for.


Well, here's the problem. I've already linked to that site on the Mania thread. And Mr. Pye has gone through the usual motions to "debunk" their website, saying he's asked NESS to remove that page because it is "not factual."

Believe me, I have no delusions about what the skull is. The odds of the skull being an alien/human hybrid or alien are about the same of me convincing Mr. Pye that the skull is natural... in other words, zero.

I believe it's human; he believes otherwise. But he's talking about biology and genetics that are way above my head, and I lack the knowledge of those sciences to disprove the new theories he's tossing about. I can keep pointing out the fallacies in his logic, but he can keep obscuring the real issue with pseudoscience.

I guess I'm looking to make the conversation over there not so one sided... to not be the lone voice in the wind. Basic research I've got... but facts from someone who's in those fields or who is an expert on those subjects would really, really help. I'm not trying to convince Mr. Pye... that simply won't happen. I'm trying to reach out to those on that site who are on the proverbial fence inbetween skepticism and woo, like I once was. I want to plant those doubts and hope they lead someone to a more rational way of life.

Does that better explain what I'm looking for?

Squid

[AdinDraco]

This is old, debunked woo. Good luck with it though, if practice and educating yourself about woo is your goal. I haven't found the episode# yet, but Dr Steven Novella on the Skeptics' Guide to the Universe (and crew) covered this on an early episode. Being a neurologist (from memory, that's what Dr Novella is right?), he also had a pretty good idea what the true cause of the skull actually was.

Edit: oops, just noticed that the link a few posts up was a ness post and was indeed Dr Novella. Apologies - just go there.

[Starthinker]

You will never convince him. You may as well argue with a brick wall. As for other people, it takes a lot to convince a person with convictions that they are wrong and even more to get them to admit it.

[Wolfman]

To echo what others have said above...its a hopeless cause. Doesn't matter how much science or facts you throw at him. He is a 'true believer'...and like all true believers, is certain that he had 'The Truth'. Any scientific snippet that he feels supports his argument (or that can be twisted/misinterpreted to support his argument) will be accepted as gospel truth...and all others dismissed as wrong. Of course, non-scientific snippets that support his argument will likewise be held up as undeniable truth.

This isn't a case of "let's look at the evidence and see which side has more evidence to support it". It is a case of "I know the truth, and anything that contradicts it is, by definition, wrong."

[kittynh]

Please keep posting, you won't convince HIM but the other people reading will get both sides. THe point is also to keep pressing him. Often with skeptics you aren't trying to change the mind of the hard core believer. You are making sure anyone reading his BS belief isn't going to buy it.

One thing I do is to, with respect, keep pushing the hard core believer until they get into what I like to call the "Idiot Zone " or "Just Plain Silly Zone".

A hard core believer likes a LOT of evidence. So you refute his claims (as best you can) but also press him for more. Eventually most hard core believers will come up with something so silly that everyone listening in or reading this debate goes "well that's just plain dumb". Now I know, interbreeding between humans and aliens is just plain silly, but people will buy anythig with a some science words thrown in.

Push perhaps for where exactly he feels these "aliens" have come from. Ask if the mother reported anything like an alien raping her. Heck, ask "why would all these scientists lie? and what is your educational background?" (get his real name so you can google his credentials). I dunno, but usually these people end up claiming something SO over the top that everyone (or at least the average person) goes, "well now THAT is just dumb".

As a skeptic, you are doing a good job just replying and makig sure his BS does not go unchallenged. Ignoring these people means he gets to post his woo and if no one says "that is incorrect" people will believe it. You are doing a much better job than you think!

[Psiload]

It took Google exactly .13 second to pull up images which smack Lloyd Pye's "starchild" hypothesis square in the chops.

Examples of living "starchildren" aka hydrocephalus sufferers abound.

I can't even imagine the type of mental gymnastics a person like Lloyd had to perform in order to deny the reality of the blatently obvious explanation for his "starchild" skull. The level of voluntary pig ignorance necessary to continue with such a foolish delusion in the face of such easily accessible contradictory evidence is truly astonishing.

[Vortigern99]

This site seems to be what you are looking for.

http://www.theness.com/the-starchild-project/

From the link:

We will likely never know the whole story of the Starchild, but what is clear is that aliens need not be invoked. The child very likely suffered from untreated hydrocephalus, a mundane and simple explanation for the anomalies seen in the skull. DNA testing confirms, unsurprisingly, the child’s human ancestry. Still, the true-believers are likely to cling tenaciously to their preferred hypotheses, and will continue to spin tales of an alien-human breeding program. Science progresses forward, while pseudoscience remains fixed in predetermined desired beliefs.

[shandyjan]

The holder of the skull wants his 15 minutes of fame and attention, and science or any other study is not going to take that away from him. You don't need to be an expert as he rejects any expertise. You cannot argue with him, only dismiss him and dismiss everything he says.

[makaya325]

Pye Cherry Picks his evidence by suggesting the Gaps in the Fossil record mean that there are aliens. Hominoid? Give me a break! :rolleyes: That is not even Scientific terminology!

[Marduk]

The terms "hominoid", "hominid", and "hominin" are not interchangeable, but their classification criteria are variously in a state of flux. In general, the hominoids are a primate superfamily; the hominid family is currently considered to comprise both the great ape lineages and human lineages within the hominoid superfamily; the "homininae" comprise both the human lineages and the African ape lineages within the hominids, and the "hominini" comprising only the human lineages.
http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Hominoids.html

[makaya325]

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/Hominoids.html

It just Seems like he is misusing Scientific Terminology to make himself sound Sophisticated, when, in reality, he is sounding more Pseudo scientific.

[Toke]

Oh, FFS. What are the chances of two species that evolved on different planets being able to interbreed? This has to be one of the silliest woo ideas out there!

Actually it is quite well documented in some categories of comic books that the ability to interbreed is the norm among humanoid races. :duck:

[Marduk]

"humans are more likely to interbreed with a petunia" than an alien species
true that
;)

[Gord_in_Toronto]

true that
;)

I once knew a girl named Petunia. ;)

[Marduk]

It just Seems like he is misusing Scientific Terminology to make himself sound Sophisticated, when, in reality, he is sounding more Pseudo scientific.

no complaint from me on that one, hes a total douchebag, funnily enough the only people I know who support him are also all douchebags and incredibly none of them knows the first thing about evolution

When he started claiming that the reason we only use 10% of our brains is because the other 90% is redundant in humans but not in the aliens we descend from I realised that things were about to go downhill, I think that was in the first 30 seconds of the first docu he ever appeared in.
:rolleyes:

[makaya325]

no complaint from me on that one, hes a total douchebag, funnily enough the only people I know who support him are also all douchebags and incredibly none of them knows the first thing about evolution

When he started claiming that the reason we only use 10% of our brains is because the other 90% is redundant in humans but not in the aliens we descend from I realised that things were about to go downhill, I think that was in the first 30 seconds of the first docu he ever appeared in.
:rolleyes:

Talk about Pye logic: Scientific terminology misuse + accepting debunked "10 percent" theory + guillible audience= Recipe for woo-woo :)

[Femke]

Squid,

You are just suffering from SIWOTI Syndrome, and you'll find you are not the only one here. Please keep up the good work, as kittynh already pointed out. You will not sway him, but others might start thinking, and that is a good thing.

Oh, :welcome2, by the way, you are in the right place.

Femke

[Squid]

I'm suffering from Saywhattohooie? I can't spell it, much less describe it! :D

Seriously, what is SIWOTI Syndrome? I've got no idea. And thanks for the welcome... it's nice to be here!

Squid

[shuttlt]

I'm suffering from Saywhattohooie? I can't spell it, much less describe it! :D

Seriously, what is SIWOTI Syndrome? I've got no idea. And thanks for the welcome... it's nice to be here!

Squid
someone is wrong on the internet

I'm a sufferer myself.

[Safe-Keeper]

someone is wrong on the internet

:D

Cue comic.

But yes, it's a better bet to convert fence-sitters than the ones who have already decided to believe.

[Dr Adequate]

I'm suffering from Saywhattohooie? I can't spell it, much less describe it! :D

Seriously, what is SIWOTI Syndrome? I've got no idea. And thanks for the welcome... it's nice to be here!

Squid It's a catch-phrase from the xkcd webcomic:

http://media1.break.com/dnet/media/2008/3/472126_d0f3fbd2-ec7b-4ea5-a766-97e6ea3b4ca1_prod.jpg

[teedot]

Bumping this thread because Lloyd Pye is apparently claiming that he's finally got DNA evidence that shows the "Starchild" is part alien. Is there a smiley for an eye roll? At the end of the post, Pye asks for money, quelle surprise.

Anyway, the claims were posted on one of the sillier conspiracy sites, Godlike Productions, but I think the original claims went out on a mass email or something. I'm just going to copy/past a few parts of the post.

"We finally have a recovery of nuclear DNA from the Starchild!"

"This past weekend I met with the geneticist working on the Starchild's DNA. He explained how he can now prove the Starchild is not entirely human, which has been our position for years. Now it is no longer a question of "if," but of "when" and "how" we spread this astounding new reality beyond the mailing list. First, though, let me bring the list's newcomers up to speed."

The next two screen shots are taken from the national genetic database at the National Institute of Health, NIH. That public-access database is a centralized repository of all genetic information generated by geneticists all over the world, and now covers essentially all living organisms on Earth, from various kinds of viruses and bacteria, to various kinds of crustaceans and fish, to all kinds of animals and plants, including great apes and humans.

For many species, humans included, there are already nucleotide sequences covering entire genomes. Therefore, sequences from the Starchild's DNA can be directly compared against this vast database to look for any matches. In one such comparison below, you see the text below the blue line at the bottom (if you can read it, sorry it's so fuzzy) that 265 base pairs (a good length) of recovered Starchild nuclear DNA matches perfectly with a gene on human chromosome 1. This verifies beyond any degree of doubt that some of the nuclear DNA seen in the gel sheet is from a human being.

In the one below, and again at the bottom, you see the stunning report that in a string of 342 base pairs (another good length), "No significant similarity (is) found." To recover a stretch of base pairs as long as that with NO reference in the NIH database is astounding because it means there is no known earthly corollary for what has been analyzed! This incredible anomaly will put the Starchild in history books!!!

And I can't post links yet, but if you go to Godlike Productions and search for "Starchild", it's there somewhere.

[Trent Wray]

Multiple exclamation marks are ONLY used when something that is being stated is 100% fact.

[Lucian]

Multiple exclamation marks are ONLY used when something that is being stated is 100% fact.

That's true!!!!

[Marduk]

In the one below, and again at the bottom, you see the stunning report that in a string of 342 base pairs (another good length), "No significant similarity (is) found." To recover a stretch of base pairs as long as that with NO reference in the NIH database is astounding because it means there is no known earthly corollary for what has been analyzed! This incredible anomaly will put the Starchild in history books!!!
.

Just in case anyones wondering, there are 3 billion base pairs in the human genome (!!!!!!!), so finding only 342 dissimilar to anything else on record says nothing, unless its a comment once again on the fact that Lloyd Pye knows next to nothing about anything
:rolleyes:

I mean apart from anything else, hes just tested for human dna and retrieved a result thats meaningless and instead of looking at factors which would explain that
1. DNA degradation (consistant result of previous tests on this specimen)
2. Poor test protocols (Lloyd pye chose the lab)
3. The lineage is extinct (very very common, the specimen has no surviving relatives who's dna has passed on to the modern genome)
so, hes moved straight onto "Aliens".
did it occour to anyone else that if hes using a test which produced a result of 342 base pairs then that fact alone "base pairs" mean that the sample must be terrestrial, Dna is endemic to this planet and this planet alone
so effectively, hes just proven that the "starchild" is fully human, (unless the father was a petunia)
what a complete and utter tard
:p

[Trent Wray]

Just in case anyones wondering, there are 3 billion base pairs in the human genome (!!!!!!!), so finding only 342 dissimilar to anything else on record says nothing, unless its a comment once again on the fact that Lloyd Pye knows next to nothing about anything
:rolleyes:

I mean apart from anything else, hes just tested for human dna and retrieved a result thats meaningless and instead of looking at factors which would explain that
1. DNA degradation (consistant result of previous tests on this specimen)
2. Poor test protocols (Lloyd pye chose the lab)
3. The lineage is extinct (very very common, the specimen has no surviving relatives who's dna has passed on to the modern genome)
so, hes moved straight onto "Aliens".
did it occour to anyone else that if hes using a test which produced a result of 342 base pairs then that fact alone "base pairs" mean that the sample must be terrestrial, Dna is endemic to this planet and this planet alone
so effectively, hes just proven that the "starchild" is fully human, (unless the father was a petunia)
what a complete and utter tard
:p You know, thinking about the human mating with a petunia ... why hasn't all this mating with condoms produced a ProphylacticChild?

[Marduk]

You know, thinking about the human mating with a petunia ... why hasn't all this mating with condoms produced a ProphylacticChild?

Condoms don't have base pairs
:p

[Trent Wray]

Condoms don't have base pairs
:p Depending on the arrangement, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ménage_à_trois) might come (no pun intended) close ... ;)

[autumn1971]

Condoms don't have base pairs
:p
I've always noticed a pair right underneath the base of every condom I've ever worn.

[Marduk]

Depending on the arrangement, this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ménage_à_trois) might come (no pun intended) close ... ;)

You turn every conversation towards sex don't you
youre not fooling anyone you know
:p

I've always noticed a pair right underneath the base of every condom I've ever worn.
if you stop going with pros you won't need to wear one
:D

[Trent Wray]

I've always noticed a pair right underneath the base of every condom I've ever worn. touche :)

[Trent Wray]

You turn every conversation towards sex don't you
youre not fooling anyone you know
:p I try to pay sex proper homage. :)

if you stop going with pros you won't need to wear one
:D touche 2:clap:

[Marduk]

I try to pay sex proper homage. :)

ok next time, try to remember, when youre paying for sex its not an homage, its a tribute
:p

[Trent Wray]

ok next time, try to remember, when youre paying for sex its not an homage, its a tribute
:p touche homerun :cheerleader2

< even my baby is smiling at this one :)

[Marduk]

touche

Stop with the touching
Its unnerving me
:D

[Trent Wray]

Stop with the touching
Its unnerving me
:Dfair enough. Even I can't stand a touche-pad. :yahoo

* moving on ...... :) *

[Orphia Nay]

Just in case anyones wondering, there are 3 billion base pairs in the human genome (!!!!!!!), so finding only 342 dissimilar to anything else on record says nothing, unless its a comment once again on the fact that Lloyd Pye knows next to nothing about anything
:rolleyes:

I mean apart from anything else, hes just tested for human dna and retrieved a result thats meaningless and instead of looking at factors which would explain that
1. DNA degradation (consistant result of previous tests on this specimen)
2. Poor test protocols (Lloyd pye chose the lab)
3. The lineage is extinct (very very common, the specimen has no surviving relatives who's dna has passed on to the modern genome)
so, hes moved straight onto "Aliens".
did it occour to anyone else that if hes using a test which produced a result of 342 base pairs then that fact alone "base pairs" mean that the sample must be terrestrial, Dna is endemic to this planet and this planet alone
so effectively, hes just proven that the "starchild" is fully human, (unless the father was a petunia)
what a complete and utter tard
:p

I quoted you at another forum, Marduk, and someone replied,

"DNA is endemic to this planet,and this planet alone? How does he or she know this?"

I think that person is appealing to the unknown, but I'd like to hear Marduk's answer.

[Marduk]

DNA IS composed of nucleotides. A nucleotide consists of a phosphate group, a five-carbon sugar and a nitrogenous base bonded together. The combination that goes to make up DNA therefore represents chemical that are endemic to this planet in proportions that are normal to this planet. You may have heard that because of our close relation to chimpanzees our DNA IS 99% identical to theirs and yet human chimpanzee hybrids are not viable, what percentage would you expect us to have in common with a creature that evolved on a different planet ?.

Every creature on this planet features this combination of chemicals in its DNA, this is because the DNA evolved here, in effect it represents a certificate of earthliness. This is what led Carl Sagan to comment that a human is more likely to mate with a petunia than an alien.


whoever asked you how I know this obviously doesn't have the genetic understanding to answer their own question
so perhaps you should link them to the easily understood wiki page on the starchild skull which has recently been updated to include this
DNA testing in 1999 at BOLD, a forensic DNA lab in Vancouver, British Columbia found standard X and Y chromosomes in two samples taken from the skull, "conclusive evidence that the child was not only human (and male), but both of his parents must have been human as well, for each must have contributed one of the human sex chromosomes".[1] Further DNA testing at Trace Genetics, which unlike BOLD specializes in extracting DNA from ancient samples, in 2003 recovered mitochondrial DNA from both skulls. The child belongs to haplogroup C, while the adult female belongs to haplogroup A. Both haplotypes are characteristic Native American haplogroups, but the different haplogroup for each skull indicates that the adult female was not the child's mother. Trace Genetics was not able to recover useful lengths of nuclear DNA or Y-chromosomal DNA for further testing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starchild_skull#DNA_testing

perhaps you could also link us to the forum youve been posting my comments at so I can answer the question myself
:p

[Orphia Nay]

DNA IS composed of nucleotides. A nucleotide consists of a phosphate group, a five-carbon sugar and a nitrogenous base bonded together. The combination that goes to make up DNA therefore represents chemical that are endemic to this planet in proportions that are normal to this planet. You may have heard that because of our close relation to chimpanzees our DNA IS 99% identical to theirs and yet human chimpanzee hybrids are not viable, what percentage would you expect us to have in common with a creature that evolved on a different planet ?.

Every creature on this planet features this combination of chemicals in its DNA, this is because the DNA evolved here, in effect it represents a certificate of earthliness. This is what led Carl Sagan to comment that a human is more likely to mate with a petunia than an alien.


whoever asked you how I know this obviously doesn't have the genetic understanding to answer their own question
so perhaps you should link them to the easily understood wiki page on the starchild skull which has recently been updated to include this
.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starchild_skull#DNA_testing

perhaps you could also link us to the forum youve been posting my comments at so I can answer the question myself
:p

Great answer, Marduk.

:o My apologies, I should have included a link immediately.

Forum: http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

Thread: http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83727

[Marduk]

Great answer, Marduk.

:o My apologies, I should have included a link immediately.

Forum: http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=1

Thread: http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83727

I'll pass thanks, you take care of it
:p

of course if hes really woo hes going to come back and say "aha thats why they Aliens used genetic engineering to create the Hybrid" at which point you say "how do you know that"

[Tumblehome]

Many posters here seem to think that Lloyd Pye is simply deluded and believes this nonsense himself, but I don't get that impression at all. Everything he's written at Mania.com has been a plea for money. When he was accused of shilling for his eBook (by asking that they spend $20 for it), he responded by saying he wasn't in it for the money and had even taken a "vow of poverty"--and then promptly laid out his need for half a million dollars.* He's a real piece of work.

He berates and ridicules his detractors, and praises supporters as "warriors in the battle for truth". And of course, the scientific community is a mean, closed-minded clique (you could see that one coming a mile away).


* $250,000 for DNA testing to prove that it's alien (not to find out if it's alien, but to prove it). His eBook already promises to have irrefutable proof, so I don't know why he would want money for further DNA testing. Do you? ;)

And another $250,000 for filming the tests to--get this--ensure the integrity of the testing process. Yeah, film is the standard method of ensuring honesty in science. There's no way a film could ever be shot/edited/manipulated to convey a false message.

Yep, he's a real piece of work.

[Marduk]

Many posters here seem to think that Lloyd Pye is simply deluded and believes this nonsense himself, but I don't get that impression at all. Everything he's written at Mania.com has been a plea for money. When he was accused of shilling for his eBook (by asking that they spend $20 for it), he responded by saying he wasn't in it for the money and had even taken a "vow of poverty"--and then promptly laid out his need for half a million dollars.* He's a real piece of work.

He berates and ridicules his detractors, and praises supporters as "warriors in the battle for truth". And of course, the scientific community is a mean, closed-minded clique (you could see that one coming a mile away).


* $250,000 for DNA testing to prove that it's alien (not to find out if it's alien, but to prove it). His eBook already promises to have irrefutable proof, so I don't know why he would want money for further DNA testing. Do you? ;)

And another $250,000 for filming the tests to--get this--ensure the integrity of the testing process. Yeah, film is the standard method of ensuring honesty in science. There's no way a film could ever be shot/edited/manipulated to convey a false message.

Yep, he's a real piece of work.

The list of pseudo-scientific liars is long and undistinguished
:D

btw I have never though Lloyd deluded, retarded yes, deluded no

[Orphia Nay]

I'll pass thanks, you take care of it
:p

of course if hes really woo hes going to come back and say "aha thats why they Aliens used genetic engineering to create the Hybrid" at which point you say "how do you know that"

Cheers, Marduk. I posted him a link to your reply.

Many posters here seem to think that Lloyd Pye is simply deluded and believes this nonsense himself, but I don't get that impression at all. Everything he's written at Mania.com has been a plea for money. When he was accused of shilling for his eBook (by asking that they spend $20 for it), he responded by saying he wasn't in it for the money and had even taken a "vow of poverty"--and then promptly laid out his need for half a million dollars.* He's a real piece of work.

He berates and ridicules his detractors, and praises supporters as "warriors in the battle for truth". And of course, the scientific community is a mean, closed-minded clique (you could see that one coming a mile away).


* $250,000 for DNA testing to prove that it's alien (not to find out if it's alien, but to prove it). His eBook already promises to have irrefutable proof, so I don't know why he would want money for further DNA testing. Do you? ;)

And another $250,000 for filming the tests to--get this--ensure the integrity of the testing process. Yeah, film is the standard method of ensuring honesty in science. There's no way a film could ever be shot/edited/manipulated to convey a false message.

Yep, he's a real piece of work.

Yep, I'd say he's pretty stupid to believe what he believes, and he's very stupid to try and rip people off.

[quarky]

If I was ripping off chumps, because I could, I'd like to believe that it was somehow good for the economy. And that the chump change would keep my sailboat afloat.

And, in so doing, would enable me and my "technicians: a life relatively free of menial labor, and thus free to discover ways to improve our overall human condition.


Too bad I couldn't stop there.
Too bad i also had to get her pregnant.


Oh well.


It's what makes us all equals in the eyes of the lord.
It really comes down to abortion or not.

I sacrificed my soul for the mistake of aborting Betty-Sue's baby.

Still,

I wish I'd had the where-with-all to turn down her charms at the onset.



(sure...easy to judge me. You weren't there. She was so cute, and insistent.)



Anyway, I've got a soft spot in my moral fiber for the Starchild Skull.


That could have been my baby.

[Orphia Nay]

Links:

Lloyd Pye asking readers for $20 for his ebook:
http://www.mania.com/235-degrees-mission-starchild_article_117463.html

Lloyd Pye saying he needs $250,000 for the DNA testing, and $250,000 for a film about the "Starchild":
http://www.mania.com/235-degrees-mission-starchild-part-deux_article_117560.html

[Marduk]

Lloyd Pye saying he needs $250,000 for the DNA testing, and $250,000 for a film about the "Starchild":
http://www.mania.com/235-degrees-mission-starchild-part-deux_article_117560.html

ha, regular paternity testing costs around $100, how does he justify that amount ?:confused:

[Tumblehome]

Links:

Lloyd Pye asking readers for $20 for his ebook:
http://www.mania.com/235-degrees-mission-starchild_article_117463.html

Lloyd Pye saying he needs $250,000 for the DNA testing, and $250,000 for a film about the "Starchild":
http://www.mania.com/235-degrees-mission-starchild-part-deux_article_117560.html

Thanks for posting those links. I guess I could have done it.:o

And just to clarify, the film is supposedly only to record the testing process to "ensure its integrity" (I feel dirty just writing that), but I have no doubt that the end result would be a full-blown production available to the highest bidder.

[Tumblehome]

ha, regular paternity testing costs around $100, how does he justify that amount ?:confused:

This is what Pye says about it in the second link. Is there anything that makes sense in it?

Another thing to make clear about money is how much we need to make the final test happen. The 454 Life Science DNA recovery and evaluation of the data will be $250,000 US (150,000 pounds or 170,000 euros). However, that very high cost will produce most of the Starchild's genome, about 3 billion base pairs collected over 3-4 months. Then comes comparing it point-by-point with humans, chimps, gorillas, and soon Neanderthals. That comparison will show beyond any possible doubt, beyond any scientific weeping or wailing or gnashing of teeth, that the Starchild is not of this earth. This is an absolute lead-pipe cinch because there is not a single physical corollary between the Starchild skull and a normal human skull--not one! So there is no way its base pairs can be any closer to a human than a chimp or a gorilla.

In 2003 a primer-based DNA test showed the Starchild was a human-alien hybrid. Definite. So now it is inevitable that someone with "Deep Pockets" will grasp this reality and the test will get underway.

[Toke]

Oh yes, it makes perfect sense that an alien-human hybrid would have more in common with a chimp or gorilla than with a human. :rolleyes:

Or in other words, his woo lacks internal consistency.

[shandyjan]

This is I think a mistake in woo thinking...
snip>"Then comes comparing it point-by-point with humans, chimps, gorillas, and soon Neanderthals. That comparison will show beyond any possible doubt, beyond any scientific weeping or wailing or gnashing of teeth, that the Starchild is not of this earth."

If it was found to be not of this eart why would science be gnashing teeth..it would be highly exciting and change so much knowledge and ideas. I dont think they think of science as something going forward but something staying set in the past, which is usually the stance of woo!

[quarky]

If I was ripping off chumps, because I could, I'd like to believe that it was somehow good for the economy. And that the chump change would keep my sailboat afloat.

And, in so doing, would enable me and my "technicians: a life relatively free of menial labor, and thus free to discover ways to improve our overall human condition.


Too bad I couldn't stop there.
Too bad i also had to get her pregnant.


Oh well.


It's what makes us all equals in the eyes of the lord.
It really comes down to abortion or not.

I sacrificed my soul for the mistake of aborting Betty-Sue's baby.

Still,

I wish I'd had the where-with-all to turn down her charms at the onset.



(sure...easy to judge me. You weren't there. She was so cute, and insistent.)



Anyway, I've got a soft spot in my moral fiber for the Starchild Skull.


That could have been my baby.



Holy cow.

Even I have no idea what quarky was getting at here.

Jazz?

[Marduk]

Holy cow.

Even I have no idea what quarky was getting at here.

Jazz?

Don't forget to take your meds
:p

This is how well Lloyd understands human evolutionary theory

The truth is that some lengthy fossil timelines are missing, but many more are well accounted for. Those have been thoroughly examined in the past 140-plus years, to no avail. In any other occupation, a 140-year-long trek up a blind alley would indicate a wrong approach has been taken. But not to scientists. They blithely continue forward, convinced of the absolute rightness of their mission and confident their fabled missing link could be found beneath the next overturned rock. Sooner or later, they believe, one of their members will uncover it, so they all work in harmonious concert toward that common goal. Individually, though, it’s every man or woman for themselves.
and laughably in more detail
Anthropologists are now left with only Homo Erectus as a possible direct ancestor for humans, and Erectus supposedly went extinct 300,000 years ago—100,000 before we appeared. Obviously, something had to give here, and—as in war—truth has been the first casualty. Recently anthropologists started reevaluating Homo Erectus fossils from Indonesia and guess what? They are now finding possible dates as early as 30,000 years ago, well beneath the 120,000 years ago Cro-Magnons first appeared in the fossil record. Such a surprise! However, scientists still have to account for our “sudden” appearance and our wide array of new traits never before seen among primates.

[I Am He]

He berates and ridicules his detractors, and praises supporters as "warriors in the battle for truth". And of course, the scientific community is a mean, closed-minded clique (you could see that one coming a mile away). Don't they ever change their tunes?


I Am He

[Frying Dutchmen]

This is I think a mistake in woo thinking...
snip>"Then comes comparing it point-by-point with humans, chimps, gorillas, and soon Neanderthals. That comparison will show beyond any possible doubt, beyond any scientific weeping or wailing or gnashing of teeth, that the Starchild is not of this earth."

If it was found to be not of this eart why would science be gnashing teeth..it would be highly exciting and change so much knowledge and ideas. I dont think they think of science as something going forward but something staying set in the past, which is usually the stance of woo!

The guy is wonderfully anti science.

[Orphia Nay]

Lloyd Pye's site has a new video up, purporting to describe the results of a new DNA test done earlier this year.

Site: http://www.starchildproject.com/

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moEYqLdupIA

It doesn't seem to show where the test was done, or who did it. Proof by Youtube!!! Indubitable!!! :oldroll:

[Burning Beard]

Woo-hoo, look what showed up in my Facebook news feed

http://current.com/1g15n4c

Please understand that this result has now been verified several times, and a few more different fragments have been identified that cannot be matched in this database to anything known. Despite that fact, mainstream skeptics will be obligated by their positions to try to say it's some kind of gibberish or some kind of mistake because in their world view it simply can't be true.

:mad:

[Marduk]

Woo-hoo, look what showed up in my Facebook news feed

http://current.com/1g15n4c



:mad:

Oh I am surpised, the greatest news since the dawn of civilisation and its not in the national press, just on facebook.

well thats me totally convinced
:p
Next week we'll be looking at the various depths of life forms on planet earth to see which has sunk lower, Riftia pachyptila or Lloyd Pye
:D:D

[Cainkane1]

Hello, everyone. I'm asking for some help, if people don't mind.

I'm a member of a forum at Mania.com, which is a site dedicated to things like comic books, movies, games... mostly sci fi/fantasy/horror based. They offer regular columns, written by guest commentators.

One of their columns, "23.5 Degrees" is angled toward the usual woo. Well, Mr. Lloyd Pye, a man who owns an unusually deformed human skull, is trying to prove to the world that the skull is of an alien/human hybrid. I've been trying to debate him civilly, but I'm not getting anywhere. I'm an almost alone skeptic surrounded by woo believers.

What I'm asking for is for people, regardless of what you believe, to come over to that thread and post about it, in a civil manner. I really could use people who know more about biology, anthropology, genetics, and similar topics than I do. ( I can't refute some of his claims because I lack the proper knowledge to do so; therefore, I sound somewhat like a fool, and definitely a lone voice shouting into the wind. )

I can't post a direct link yet, so here's how to find the column for those who are interested. Go to mania.com, find the search bar, type in "Mission Starchild Part Deux" and hit enter. You can find the thread at the top of the returned searches.

Thank you!

Squid
He gets brownie with the paranormal crowd. He'll never debate you. If he had the skull tested it would be found to be comepletely human and he knows it.

[Orphia Nay]

The believers claim that Pye's test finding, "No significant similarity found" indicates alien origin of the 900 year old skull.

They fail to see that, IF that is true, then there are NO other aliens or alien/humans recorded as ever existing. "No significant similarity found".

The aliens have left the building. :)

[SusanB-M1]

The star child skull is a continuing source of discussion on the GH forums and this is the latest one:
http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=290137&t=290137
Houcaid's posts are the best and I hope he has time to complete a proper research paper on it. (Name in bold as he's a mod.) (I'm Susan Doris there.)

[Orphia Nay]

The star child skull is a continuing source of discussion on the GH forums and this is the latest one:
http://www.grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?f=1&i=290137&t=290137
Houcaid's posts are the best and I hope he has time to complete a proper research paper on it. (Name in bold as he's a mod.) (I'm Susan Doris there.)

Thanks for that, Susan! Yes, Houcad's posts are good!

Here's a thread from a forum I visit. Mighty Dawg's posts are well worth reading.

http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84862

[Frying Dutchmen]

Thanks for that, Susan! Yes, Houcad's posts are good!

Here's a thread from a forum I visit. Mighty Dawg's posts are well worth reading.

http://www.freedomcrowsnest.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84862

That thread was nuts... What I gather from reading that forum from a one Mister Specs and A Happy camper is that the star child is an almost religious artifact with zero evidence of it being purely human that you should shut up if you disagree with crazy man Pye and that the JREF are all arrogant *****

[Orphia Nay]

That thread was nuts... What I gather from reading that forum from a one Mister Specs and A Happy camper is that the star child is an almost religious artifact with zero evidence of it being purely human that you should shut up if you disagree with crazy man Pye and that the JREF are all arrogant *****

:newlol Spot on! ;) FSM forbid if you cast aspersions on the divine DNA test, and prepare for insults and vicious abuse if you doubt the skull is from a holy alien!

[dafydd]

The believers claim that Pye's test finding, "No significant similarity found" indicates alien origin of the 900 year old skull.

They fail to see that, IF that is true, then there are NO other aliens or alien/humans recorded as ever existing. "No significant similarity found".

The aliens have left the building. :)

The aliens don't even know that the building is here.

[Marduk]

The believers claim that Pye's test finding, "No significant similarity found" indicates alien origin of the 900 year old skull.

They fail to see that, IF that is true, then there are NO other aliens or alien/humans recorded as ever existing. "No significant similarity found".

The aliens have left the building. :)
That result only applies to 342 base pairs, presumably the other 2,999,658 base pairs that he hasn't commented on at all, are entirely human
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5731831#post5731831
Besides which, a DNA test done in 1999 in Canada found a pefectly normal human X and Y chromasone in two seperate samples, one from the mother and one from the father, and Lloyd has also decided to ignore that, so unless he's claiming that Aliens have human chromasones hes simply a con man
;)

[Orphia Nay]

The aliens don't even know that the building is here.

Yep. :)

That result only applies to 342 base pairs, presumably the other 2,999,658 base pairs that he hasn't commented on at all, are entirely human
http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=5731831#post5731831
Besides which, a DNA test done in 1999 in Canada found a pefectly normal human X and Y chromasone in two seperate samples, one from the mother and one from the father, and Lloyd has also decided to ignore that, so unless he's claiming that Aliens have human chromasones hes simply a con man
;)

Thanks, Marduk. Do you have a link to that Canadian DNA test?

[Marduk]

It was posted by the star child project at the time
http://www.starchildproject.com/SCSreport.PDF
when they realised what they had posted they took it down
but
Steven Novella who is a clinical Neurologist commented on it when it was up here
http://www.theness.com/the-starchild-project/

at the time Pye tried to blow off the results by claiming that the child was the result of a cloning experiment which included a human male a human female and an alien

now hes just not mentioning it at all
funny that
:p

[Cainkane1]

I saw this on TV a year or two ago. The skull is missing the lower part and the only thing you can see is the eye area and the top portion of the skull. Its either a deformed childs skull or the skull of some south american primate.

[Marduk]

Its either a deformed childs skull or the skull of some south american primate.

I think you might be able to narrow that down,
if youd read a single thing in this thread apart from the title
:D

[ShadowSot]

Heh, it's popped up again on some of the woo type sites I visit.
Apparently the DNA tests were not conclusive enough.

[Marduk]

Heh, it's popped up again on some of the woo type sites I visit.
Apparently the DNA tests were not conclusive enough.

so has Lloyd started appealing for tens of thousands of more dollars to fund a lab test that costs a few hundred ?
this is what the 5th DNA test that has proven to be not conclusive enough
for Lloyd,
:p

[William Parcher]

But what about Bigfoot?

Oh yes. Lloyd Pye and Bigfoot go together (http://www.lloydpye.com/hominoids.html). He has lectured at Bigfooter conferences.



Washington Sasquatch Research Team (http://www.wasrt.com/origins_of_man_10.html)

Long before I watched the twelve part youtube lecture by Lloyd Pye, I had my own opinion on what Bigfoot is and where it falls in the evolutionary tree of the hominids...

I do not pretend to agree with 100% of his findings, but it certainly opened my eyes and made me think. I know it will make you think and that's the whole point. Lloyd Pye stirs the evolutionary pot. If Lloyd Pye is correct, then it isn't a stretch to understand why the government doesn't want you to know. Bigfoot is only part of the subject matter that Lloyd Pye lectures about. But he ties everything together very neatly. Lloyd Pye only presents facts! Facts are difficult to argue with, unless you are a government official.

[Marduk]

But what about Bigfoot?

Oh yes. Lloyd Pye and Bigfoot go together (http://www.lloydpye.com/hominoids.html). He has lectured at Bigfooter conferences.



Washington Sasquatch Research Team (http://www.wasrt.com/origins_of_man_10.html)

Lloyd Pyes understanding of Hominid evolution is at best farcical
Consider these two statements made by Lloyd which show the depth of his knowledge
The truth is that some lengthy fossil timelines are missing, but many more are well accounted for. Those have been thoroughly examined in the past 140-plus years, to no avail. In any other occupation, a 140-year-long trek up a blind alley would indicate a wrong approach has been taken. But not to scientists. They blithely continue forward, convinced of the absolute rightness of their mission and confident their fabled missing link could be found beneath the next overturned rock. Sooner or later, they believe, one of their members will uncover it, so they all work in harmonious concert toward that common goal. Individually, though, it’s every man or woman for themselves.
so apparently scientists are looking for the missing link in Hominid evolution
http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a178/belmarduk/fossil-hominid-skulls.jpg
where would that be on this continuous list going back several million years.
Anthropologists are now left with only Homo Erectus as a possible direct ancestor for humans, and Erectus supposedly went extinct 300,000 years ago—100,000 before we appeared. Obviously, something had to give here, and—as in war—truth has been the first casualty. Recently anthropologists started reevaluating Homo Erectus fossils from Indonesia and guess what? They are now finding possible dates as early as 30,000 years ago, well beneath the 120,000 years ago Cro-Magnons first appeared in the fossil record. Such a surprise! However, scientists still have to account for our “sudden” appearance and our wide array of new traits never before seen among primates.
Cro Magnons are named after the first modern humans found in Europe which are dated to 35,000 years ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cro-Magnon
What connection is there between Homo Erectus and Cro Magnons ?
none at all,
what connection is there between lloyds claims and the truth
same answer
Homo Erectus has been extinct for 1 million years, that has never changed, there are several sub species that survived until almost 50,000 years ago. But claiming they are Homo Erectus is like claming a Lamboughini is a ford model T but about a hundred thousands times larger on a scale of magnitude
these are the subspecies
Homo erectus yuanmouensis
Homo erectus lantianensis
Homo erectus wushanensis
Homo erectus nankinensis
Homo erectus pekinensis
Homo erectus palaeojavanicus
Homo erectus soloensis
Lloyd has never mentioned any of the above names in any of his claims at any time, so apparently he is not aware of their existence, the last of the list was found in Java (soloensis) and is the one that Lloyd is referring to.
hes a con man, out to fool the gullible into paying his welfare,
I have never seen anything from Lloyd that wasn't immediately shown to be wrong and in most cases deliberately wrong. Its like a God of the gaps argument where Lloyd is creating his own gaps from the complete ignorance of his followers, thers a name for that, in fact theres several, but the one that fits the best is Pseudo science, that is to say, complete unsupported crap
A couple of his earlier claims for instance
1. that Humans and Neanderthals were not related
see http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/may/06/neanderthals-dna-humans-genome
2. That humans only use 10% of their brains because the other 90% is Alien storage capacity which we aren't advanced enough to access yet
Is a complete straw man long disproved see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10%25_of_brain_myth
;)

[sophia8]

I'm waiting for a bunch of modern Mayans to turn up at Mr Pye's door and demand the return of their ancestor's skull to its rightful burial place.
If that happens, I hope they warn us in advance so that we can stock up on the popcorn. :D

[Orphia Nay]

It was posted by the star child project at the time
http://www.starchildproject.com/SCSreport.PDF
when they realised what they had posted they took it down
but
Steven Novella who is a clinical Neurologist commented on it when it was up here
http://www.theness.com/the-starchild-project/

at the time Pye tried to blow off the results by claiming that the child was the result of a cloning experiment which included a human male a human female and an alien

now hes just not mentioning it at all
funny that
:p

Thanks for that.

I also found this, which has a lot of quotes from the report (which are subsequently misinterpreted by Pye).

http://www.rense.com/ufo5/skull.htm

[Marduk]

Thanks for that.

I also found this, which has a lot of quotes from the report (which are subsequently misinterpreted by Pye).

http://www.rense.com/ufo5/skull.htm

Thats what was originally at the link I posted until Lloyd took it down

this is my favourite part
What this means is that however physically different from humans a particular alien species might be (imagine the wide array of possibilities in "Star Wars"), it must share a complimentary copy of the human timing sequence code or viable offspring (no matter how much or how little a "mix" they might be) will not progress beyond the fetal stage.
Logical fallacy - appeal to George Lucas authority
:D

[Orphia Nay]

:newlol Appeal to Fiction! Bread-and-butter for the woo diet. :)

So Lloyd Pye posted that, instead of the full test from the Canadian tester? How intellectually honest of him. :oldroll:

[Tumblehome]

Next week we'll be looking at the various depths of life forms on planet earth to see which has sunk lower, Riftia pachyptila or Lloyd Pye
:D:D

A tube worm has more ethics in its little finger than Lloyd Pye has in his whole body, and tube worms don't have fingers.

So it's Lloyd Pye, by fathoms.

[CORed]

ha, regular paternity testing costs around $100, how does he justify that amount ?:confused:

Because he's going to have to do it 2500 times before he finds someone who will say it's an alien?

[ShadowSot]

Because he's going to have to do it 2500 times before he finds someone who will say it's an alien?

At that point there'll be so little left of the skull it'll have "mysteriously disappeared."

[Marduk]

At that point there'll be so little left of the skull it'll have "mysteriously disappeared."

You mean like Lloyds knowledge of history
It'll be a sad day when the skull vanishes, Lloyd will have to grave rob another one to pay his mortgage
;)

[dropzone]

Holy cow.

Even I have no idea what quarky was getting at here.

Jazz?It was 1:15AM Central Daylight Time. Or 12:15AM Central Daylight Time. Claim you were an over-served US Midwesterner and more of us than would care to admit it at first will have your back.

Jazz has its fans, but that is a time for the Blues or early R&B.