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DialecticMaterialist
20th December 2003, 05:48 PM
This has to be one of my favorite fundamentalist speeches from the Great Awekening, and it can be found here:

http://www.jonathanedwards.com/sermons/Warnings/sinners.htm

It is from one of the world's most renoun preachers of the time Jonathan Edwards.



Some of my favoirte excerpts are:

The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much as one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect over the fire, abhors you, and is dreadfully provoked: his wrath towards you burns like fire; he looks upon you as worthy of nothing else, but to be cast into the fire; he is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in his sight; you are ten thousand times more abominable in his eyes, than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours. You have offended him infinitely more than ever a stubborn rebel did his prince; and yet it is nothing but his hand that holds you from falling into the fire every moment.



That God will execute the fierceness of his anger, implies, that he will inflict wrath without any pity. When God beholds the ineffable extremity of your case, and sees your torment to be so vastly disproportioned to your strength, and sees how your poor soul is crushed, and sinks down, as it were, into an infinite gloom; he will have no compassion upon you, he will not forbear the executions of his wrath, or in the least lighten his hand; there shall be no moderation or mercy, nor will God then at all stay his rough wind; he will have no regard to your welfare

......

God will have no other use to put you to, but to suffer misery; you shall be continued in being to no other end; for you will be a vessel of wrath fitted to destruction; and there will be no other use of this vessel, but to be filled full of wrath. God will be so far from pitying you when you cry to him, that it is said he will only "laugh and mock," Prov. 1:25, 26, &c.





"There is nothing that keeps wicked men at any one moment out of hell, but the mere pleasure of God." By the mere pleasure of God, I mean his sovereign pleasure, his arbitrary will, restrained by no obligation, hindered by no manner of difficulty, any more than if nothing else but God's mere will had in the least degree, or in any respect whatsoever, any hand in the preservation of wicked men one moment.







and:

The bow of God's wrath is bent, and the arrow made ready on the string, and justice bends the arrow at your heart, and strains the bow, and it is nothing but the mere pleasure of God, and that of an angry God, without any promise or obligation at all, that keeps the arrow one moment from being made drunk with your blood.




IMO, with a God like that, there is no need for Satan.

Yahweh
20th December 2003, 06:10 PM
Sounds like someone really needs to stand up to a bully like that...

Zero
20th December 2003, 06:15 PM
Sounds like the inspiration for some bad 80s hair metal...:D

sparklecat
20th December 2003, 06:27 PM
Oh goodness, I can't stand it when people believe or attempt to spread this junk...

c4ts
20th December 2003, 09:35 PM
I wrote this in middle school for a speech making fun of that blithering rant.

In this verse is threatened the vengeance of God on the wicked unbelieving sixth period English class. The expression I have chosen for my text “Aaaaahchoo!” seems to imply the following things, relating to the punishment and destruction to which these wicked Juniors will soon be exposed.

1. They did not all say “God bless you” when I sneezed, and I, being a man of the clergy, deserve such praise.
2. Those who did not bless me are condemned to Hell.
3. Some did say “God bless you” when I sneezed, in which case they are using God’s name in vain, in which they break one of the ten commandments, thus bringing themselves to eternal damnation.
4. Either way, their feet shall slide in due time!

There is no escape from horrible immolation in the pits of hell but the mere pleasure of God. The truth of this observation lies within these poorly thought out and unproven considerations.

1. You all deserve to be cast into hell, where you will writhe beneath mountains of brimstone in lakes of fire. Divine justice shall never stand in the way, for it will not hold against God’s whim to smite you!
2. You are already under a sentence of condominiums from hell, and not even the mightiest house-hunter can withstand the fury of a parade of homes.
3. The Wrath of God shall not be upon you until the next time I sneeze. When He comes, He shall bury all creatures beneath his almighty foot!
4. The devil stands ready to fart upon you, or sneeze you out his nose, at what moment God shall permit him. You belong to him; he has the souls of your physicians, and under his dominion.
5. Uncle Vern n’ Tim walk over the pit of hell in rotting coveralls.

the_ignored
21st December 2003, 02:09 AM
And, wouldn't you know, it: Rapture Ready (http://www.raptureready.com/resource/edwards/Jonathan_edwards.html) has a link (http://www.raptureready.com/resource/edwards/justice.html) to that guy.

I'd like to know where he got this from: (see the bolded part)...the only case where I'd agree with that is if maybe the victim was "helpless" Even so, I'd say that the punishment should fit the crime...a baby killer AND an adult killer should both face the same penalty. (I'd suggest the death penalty for BOTH, but you can never be sure you've got the right guy...a topic for another thread!)

So that sin against God, being a violation of infinite obligations, must be a crime infinitely heinous, and so deserving of infinite punishment.- Nothing is more agreeable to the common sense of mankind, than that sins committed against any one, must be proportionably heinous to the dignity of the being offended and abused; as it is also agreeable to the word of God, I Samuel 2:25. "If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him;" (i.e. shall judge him, and inflict a finite punishment, such as finite judges can inflict; ) "but if a man sin against the Lord, who shall entreat for him?" This was the aggravation of sin that made Joseph afraid of it. Genesis 39:9. "How shall I commit this great wickedness, and sin against God?" This was the aggravation of David's sin, in comparison of which he esteemed all others as nothing, because they were infinitely exceeded by it. Psalm 51:4. "Against thee, thee only have I sinned."-The eternity of the punishment of ungodly men renders it infinite: and it renders it no more than infinite; and therefore renders no more than proportionable to the heinousness of what they are guilty of.

If there be any evil or faultiness in sin against God, there is certainly infinite evil: for if it be any fault at all, it has an infinite aggravation, viz. that it is against an infinite object. If it be ever so small upon other accounts, yet if it be any thing, it has one infinite dimension; and so is an infinite evil. Which may be illustrated by this: if we suppose a thing to have infinite length, but no breadth and thickness, (a mere mathematical line,) it is nothing: but if it have any breadth and thickness, though never so small, and infinite length, the quantity of it is infinite; it exceeds the quantity of any thing, however broad, thick, and long, wherein these dimensions are all finite.

Gee, I always thought that the justice system worked by WHAT the crime was, NOT who it was perpetrated against....This is what happens when you start from a false premise, done in order to justify something nuts!

Obviously to justify their faith, these guys have it twisted around...Using this "reasoning" then, if one guy just "takes god's name in vain" once in his life, and that's it, is JUST AS BAD as a serial killer/rapist!

WTBF????


Yet god himself killed babies, etc, and pregnant women in the OT and presumably "allows" miscarriages now, and he's supposed to be "honorable"?

Bottom line, it's this weird schizo-morality that helped drive me away from this belief.

sparklecat
21st December 2003, 02:37 PM
I never got all that "you have committed an infinite crime" junk. How exactly is it supposed to be infinite? I would think that it being committed against an infinite (merciful) God would make our case better in a sense... since he cannot lose anything, then he is free to show mercy and not need retribution. Or if its not God that we owe- who is it?

The annihilation thing I could deal with... don't put people into heaven that aren't going to want to be there anyway, sure. But this whole eternal punishing thing is just illogical, really. One of those tenants that I was always uneasy defending, in case the person chose to dig past the surface answers I had to it.

Sorry if that was confusing, thoughts area bit scattered today...

Martin
21st December 2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by sparklecat
don't put people into heaven that aren't going to want to be there anywayLike who?

El Greco
21st December 2003, 03:02 PM
I found a nice illustration for that Edwards' article:

sparklecat
21st December 2003, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Like who?

Anyone who is anti-Christian? I don't think they'd want to spend eternity worshipping a God they don't care for...

I won't speak for those who are more neutral though...

c4ts
21st December 2003, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by El Greco
I found a nice illustration for that Edwards' article:

Mmmmmm... god children. Glaaaaallll...

Yahweh
21st December 2003, 11:22 PM
Originally posted by El Greco
I found a nice illustration for that Edwards' article:
For whatever reason, I'm feeling compulsed to laugh very loudly right now :D...

(Personality disorder, dont mind me none...)