Have Any JREF Non-Preachers Changed Your Mind About Christianity?

[Hokulele]

This post is a spin-off from Ryan O'Dine's poll regarding the more evangelical posters on this forum. This poll is to see how the more moderate or liberal Christians who post here have influenced your opinions.

For the purposes of this poll, I am defining "Christian" as being any person who calls themself a Christian. This thread is not about who is or isn't Christian, as there are plenty of those that can be resurrected.

If you are a moderate or liberal Christian, feel free to share your views about how you feel you and your posts have been received and whether it even matters to you if your posts have influence on how others view your religion.

[paximperium]

It hasn't changed my opinion. I still believe that most Christians are reasonable and good people. However it depresses me more since it continues to show that no matter how reasonable, rational or "liberal" you are, religion continues to be a huge defect in the thinking process.

[Darth Rotor]

This post is a spin-off from Ryan O'Dine's poll regarding the more evangelical posters on this forum. This poll is to see how the more moderate or liberal Christians who post here have influenced your opinions.

For the purposes of this poll, I am defining "Christian" as being any person who calls themself a Christian. This thread is not about who is or isn't Christian, as there are plenty of those that can be resurrected.

If you are a moderate or liberal Christian, feel free to share your views about how you feel you and your posts have been received and whether it even matters to you if your posts have influence on how others view your religion.
Simple. As I stated a while back, while Huntster was still around, I am a Christian. If you aren't, fine, may whatever you "are" in that sense bring you joy.

While I can now and again be witty or insightful, I have a problem with the rampant stereotyping and bigotry I encounter on this sub forum. All too frequently I get annoyed and post in a way that is other than friendly and or lively.

I therefore cannot expect that my contribution to the various discussions and poo flinging episodes here could get much of anyone in the non religious, or anti religious, sector of the community to feel drawn to where I am coming from.

As I stated ages ago, I am not here to proselytize. However, I will admit that not setting a better example is a mark against me insofar as my faith goes, and I know better. I simply don't put forth the energy often enough to do as I should.

Oh, why I don't proselytize here?

It's the *********** internet. :cool:

DR

[Simon39759]

Not much; that kinda was my personal opinion to begin with. Also, while moderate Christians are around, fanatical dishonest ones are always more vocals or more noticeable...

[Darth Rotor]

Not much; that kinda was my personal opinion to begin with. Also, while moderate Christians are around, fanatical dishonest ones are always more vocals or more noticeable...
And probably more amusing to play with. :cool:

They are also a nice crutch one can use to prop up a stereotype, as I've noticed on these discussion boards.

DR

[Hokulele]

As I stated ages ago, I am not here to proselytize.


I guess that leads to another question (for another thread). Why are you here? By that I mean, why do people post in R&P? Is it simply because it is a safe place to let your atheist freak flag fly? Is it a chance to play with the Fundevangelist balls of string? It is simply to "put out information on historical and scientific facts they don't teach you in the Godless American schools"?

Hmm, maybe I'll start that one some other day.

[Safe-Keeper]

I already have high opinions of Christians, so nothing's changed for me.

[Darth Rotor]

I guess that leads to another question (for another thread). Why are you here?
To learn, and to interact.

I do both here, when I am not annoyed.

Also, some of the statements here are great set ups for my attempts at jokes, so I can't resist.

I am so weak when it comes to the temptation to crack a joke ...

DR

[Pure Argent]

I am so weak when it comes to the temptation to crack a joke ...

DR

I feel your pain. But it helps that, even when I break, my jokes are so bad that they go unnoticed.

[Darth Rotor]

I feel your pain. But it helps that, even when I break, my jokes are so bad that they go unnoticed.
Let all of your rain drops fall, for one will kiss the petal of a rose. ;)

[Niggle]

Okay, I voted that they slightly improved my view of Christianity. It's nice to see some who are still willing to live and let live. Seems like we mostly hear from the rabid fundies nowadays, which gets pretty scary around election times.

I, personally, don't care what anyone chooses to worship (or not), as long as it doesn't violate any laws (US viewpoint, which leaves a lot of latitude). It's when they try to impose their worship or their narrow rulebook on me that I object. And when they barge into discussions with off-topic rants about how we're all hopeless sinners who deserve to suffer in hell, it annoys me (hear that, KK?).

The moderate Christians I know of on this site mostly seem like nice people, overall. There are a few sourpusses, but they generally don't preach the hellfire/damnation routine, so I try to ignore them (not always successfully, I'm afraid).

[Foolmewunz]

My opinion of Christians - No Change. Pretty much the mix I'd expect, e.g. a few Sunday Christians, a few moderate and even-tempered, a few who get a little heated, a few who get tempestuous and irrational, and a couple of fruitcakes. Life, in other words.


Slight Derail Follows:

My opinion of "my people", Atheists - Lowered Somewhat. Again, the same mix of reasonable and unreasonable sorts, but maybe because of Randi's professed non-belief, there seem to be more aggressively atheistic members here than I meet in TRW.

Doesn't really phase me - I'm not going to become a bible-thumping theist because (as someone disingenuously suggested in a UHC discussion) one side is shriller than the other.

Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans.... believe what you want. And if you can simply not try to make me or mine adhere to your beliefs and not try to take ANYTHING away from someone/anyone who doesn't do so, either, we'll be just fine.

[Flo]

Haven't changed my opinion at all. The basic doctrine is still absolutely unbelievable, especially since even the non-preaching, nice, tolerant, christians (or muslims, buddhists, whatever) cannot agree on what it really is. I've known that long before the advent of the internet ...

[wollery]

I voted exactly the same way on this poll as I did on the other poll. Individuals do not colour my opinions of beliefs, critical analysis of the beliefs does that. There are good people and bad people, and they will use whatever belief system they most identify with to justify whatever they do.

[Ryan O'Dine]

I voted “No change,” which is different from my vote in the original poll: “Somewhat lowered.”

I've met preachers, missionaries, friends, even (believe it or not) atheist JREFers whose apologetics have improved my opinion of Christianity, so I know it can be done.

And the JREF would certainly not suffer if it had more Christians capable of doing it.

[Piscivore]

As I said in the other poll, The religion is what the Christians make it. As far as I can tell, there are only slightly fewer flavours of "Christianity" than there are Christians. If this were not the case, if "Christianity" were some homogenous, monolithic entity unto itself, then where would the multiplicity of schisms we see come from?

Given this, I cannot reasonably assess "Christianity", only the particular Christian.

[Fnord]

"Somewhat lowered my opinion of Christianity."

I am a Theist in general, and a Christian by declaration.

My time spend reading the posts on JREF has soured me on religion, but not on faith. My current thoughts and feelings on religion, if known publicly, would likely get me excommunicated from the Catholic church, ignored by Baptists in the liquor store, and beheaded by fatwa in most Islamic countries.

I believe that Jesus Himself was a great teacher and prophet, and that He performed a great many miracles, but that His teachings have been perverted from the moment He uttered them in order to benefit the established religious authority and subsequent evangelical movements.

I believe that Jesus was/is a divine being, and the only begotten Son of the only living God. I also believe that Guinness is the only real beer, that Shakey's serves the best pizza, that Toyota makes the best cars, and that while the Chicago Cubs may never win the pennant, they are still fun to watch.

Just don't ask me to prove any of this, because I can't. These are my beliefs, and yours may vary or even be at odds with them. So whatever you do or don't believe is up to you, just as whatever I do or don't believe is up to me.

[Darth Rotor]

I believe that Jesus was/is a divine being, and the only begotten Son of the only living God. I also believe that Guinness is the only real beer, that Shakey's serves the best pizza, that Toyota makes the best cars, and that while the Chicago Cubs may never win the pennant, they are still fun to watch.
Splitter!

DR

[ProbeX]

I've learned that I continue to be agnostic and that there are good eggs and rotten eggs in every group. I'm interested in people who are fun and challenging to talk with. And people who are basically good at heart.

Some of the smartest people I've met are atheists, Christians, Jews, agnostics, etc. And some of the most judgmental, close-minded people I've encountered are atheists, Christians, Jews, agnostics, etc.

[Blackadder]

I wasn't really sure what 'non-preacher' meant in this context but I voted 'Greatly lowered my opinion of Christianity' because frankly:

Everybody lowers my opinion of Christianity:

-neutral people, because their opinions and deeds show me there is no difference between believers and non-believers in daily life, moral and ethics (except that non-believers are usually better in critical thinking) Why does that lower my opinion? Well, it shows me Christianity makes no difference, so has no worth, except for the individual believer maybe, but not for me, so it lowers my opinion.

-firebrand preachers, because their thought are always illogical

-public atheists, because they unmask all of the flaws in the christian doctrine.

[Fnord]

My second-favorite "religious" teacher is the Mahatma, Mohandas Gandhi (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/m/mohandas_gandhi.html) ... a Hindu ...

"A religion that takes no account of practical affairs and does not help to solve them is no religion."

"Faith... must be enforced by reason... when faith becomes blind it dies."

"A man who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act."

... and my favorite ...

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."

Christians could should learn a lot from such men.

:)

[SezMe]

While I can now and again be witty or insightful,

Evidence? :)

I have a problem with the rampant stereotyping and bigotry I encounter on this sub forum.

I do too and I am not a religious person.

All too frequently I get annoyed and post in a way that is other than friendly and or lively.
IOW, you're human. In spite of the fact that you and I disagree on some issues and in spite of the poke in the ribs above, you are precisely the kind of Christian that graces rather than disgraces these fora. We're far, far better off for your presence. I sometimes am amazed at the tolerance you display for some of the abuse thrown around here. From me and me alone, thanks for hanging in here.










PS: Is the check in the mail? :)

[hamelekim]

You can't judge Christ based on Christians. It's impossible to live up to God's expectations, which is why Christ died on the cross, so we wouldn't have to. Christians are human, and they have all the failings of humans. There are also those who don't really believe in the doctrine as laid out in the Bible, and they are also used to judge Christianity as a whole.

You have to judge the religion based on it's teachings, and Christianity is clearly not the negative philosophy that many claim it is.

[SezMe]

It is hard to imagine, hammy, how you could have posted more of a derail than that. Well, ok, maybe something about Dancing with the Stars but other than that ....

[hamelekim]

It is hard to imagine, hammy, how you could have posted more of a derail than that. Well, ok, maybe something about Dancing with the Stars but other than that ....

What... I was responding to the original post, and subsequent comments.

[paximperium]

What... I was responding to the original post, and subsequent comments.
No you weren't. You were preaching like you always do.

[Marduk]

You can't judge Christ based on Christians. It's impossible to live up to God's expectations, which is why Christ died on the cross, so we wouldn't have to. Christians are human, and they have all the failings of humans. There are also those who don't really believe in the doctrine as laid out in the Bible, and they are also used to judge Christianity as a whole.

You have to judge the religion based on it's teachings, and Christianity is clearly not the negative philosophy that many claim it is.

can you sum up the main tenet of christianity in one sentence for us non believers ?
;)

[Beth]

can you sum up the main tenet of christianity in one sentence for us non believers ?
;)

Love everybody; judge nobody.

I'm not sure hamelekim will agree, but that's how the Church I attend sums it up. Of course, it's a very liberal church that welcomes agnostics and atheists and invites them to be members without trying to change their beliefs.

[Darth Rotor]

Evidence? :)



I do too and I am not a religious person.


IOW, you're human. In spite of the fact that you and I disagree on some issues and in spite of the poke in the ribs above, you are precisely the kind of Christian that graces rather than disgraces these fora. We're far, far better off for your presence. I sometimes am amazed at the tolerance you display for some of the abuse thrown around here. From me and me alone, thanks for hanging in here.


PS: Is the check in the mail? :)
It helps that I have also found new friends here as well. :cool:




Money order OK?

DR

[headscratcher4]

Interestingly enough...when I started partcipating in the JREF boards seveal years ago, I would have described myself as agnostic. Now, I describe myself as an atheist.

[Darth Rotor]

You have to judge the religion based on it's teachings, and Christianity is clearly not the negative philosophy that many claim it is.
I disagree somewhat with you, ham. How the teachings are applied by the adherents of a religion will color how it is received and judged. That too is a human reaction. If The Church is The People of Christ (as was His intention in leaving behind The Church (we won't go into to how it split so often)) then the religion is by extension the expressed exercise, by the people of that Church, of the teachings upon which the Church founds itself.

If Christ taught us all to smoke dope, but none of us smoke dope, how would one not inside the Church feel about the teachings? When Jesus said "pick up your cross and follow me" it is my opinion that he was charging his followers, at that time and through all time, to follow in his very difficult to follow example of setting a good example.

Actions matter.

DR

[Darth Rotor]

Interestingly enough...when I started partcipating in the JREF boards seveal years ago, I would have described myself as agnostic. Now, I describe myself as an atheist.
Should we now call you Doctor Gno? :D

[headscratcher4]

Should we now call you Doctor Gno? :D


Ouch, My brain hurts...no, my other brain. ;)

[Piscivore]

You can't judge Christ based on Christians.
On what shall we judge him, then?

But we aren't talking about "Christ", we are talking about "Christianity". What with the staggering multiplicity of contradictory flavours of Christianity out there, the majority of them must deviate from "Christ" and his teachings in some way, yes?

It's impossible to live up to God's expectations,
That's god's problem, not mine.

which is why Christ died on the cross, so we wouldn't have to.
He made the rules. It's nothing to do with me.

Christians are human, and they have all the failings of humans.
Indeed.

There are also those who don't really believe in the doctrine as laid out in the Bible, and they are also used to judge Christianity as a whole.
Not by me. (http://forums.randi.org/showpost.php?p=5156046&postcount=16)

You have to judge the religion based on it's teachings, and Christianity is clearly not the negative philosophy that many claim it is.
Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. Depends on the Christian.

[Skeptic Ginger]

......
While I can now and again be witty or insightful, I have a problem with the rampant stereotyping and bigotry I encounter on this sub forum. ...
DR:id: Look in the mirror and you'll see yourself on the politics sub forum....

It may give you some insight as to what you are seeing here.

[politas]

"Christianity" is such a broad term that I think it's pretty absurd to have many opinions about it. I try to only have opinions about people based on what they themselves do or say.

There are a few basic things that can be ascribed to Christianity as a whole. I don't think that a god took human form and walked the Earth. My opinion about that hasn't changed. Some Christian philosophical positions and morals I certainly agree with, while others I find deeply disturbing and frankly completely immoral, but apart from the basic belief that a god took human form and walked on Earth, and that his name was Jesus, I don't think there are any other things that are universal among self-labelled "Christianity". Why would anyone try to have an encompassing opinion about such a fragmented and inconsistent group?

[Beth]

"Christianity" is such a broad term that I think it's pretty absurd to have many opinions about it. I try to only have opinions about people based on what they themselves do or say.

There are a few basic things that can be ascribed to Christianity as a whole. I don't think that a god took human form and walked the Earth. My opinion about that hasn't changed. Some Christian philosophical positions and morals I certainly agree with, while others I find deeply disturbing and frankly completely immoral, but apart from the basic belief that a god took human form and walked on Earth, and that his name was Jesus, I don't think there are any other things that are universal among self-labelled "Christianity". Why would anyone try to have an encompassing opinion about such a fragmented and inconsistent group?


Actually, even that belief isn't universal. It's perfectly okay in some Christian churches to hold that it's Christ's teachings that are important and whether or not you believe he was an actual living being or a mythical figure is not.

[Darth Rotor]

:id: Look in the mirror and you'll see yourself on the politics sub forum....

Wrong answer, Mrs Partisan, confirmation bias person. The World can still wait for you to register the necessary clue.

DR

[Maia]

I don't know if I've influenced anybody, but I found a wonderful link that sums up a lot about the way I think and feel when it comes to Christianity. It can be found here. (http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2005/05/I-Am-A-Mystic.aspx) Check it out! :)

[arthwollipot]

I voted exactly the same here as I did in the other thread, and for exactly the same reasons.

[CriticalSock]

I guess that leads to another question (for another thread). Why are you here? By that I mean, why do people post in R&P? Is it simply because it is a safe place to let your atheist freak flag fly? Is it a chance to play with the Fundevangelist balls of string? It is simply to "put out information on historical and scientific facts they don't teach you in the Godless American schools"?

Hmm, maybe I'll start that one some other day.

I post in the RnP forum because:


. It's something I've had experience with

. I have strong feelings about it

. I learn a lot

. christianity still interests me even though I've rejected it's underlying truth

. The Bigfoot flying UFO's forum feels too much like poking fun at idiots.

. The how sciency is your brain forum is completely out of my league



:)

[Hux]

It hasn't changed mu opinion one iota. Largely because I consider several people I know as friends and they are also ex Fundamentalists. So there is no machination or tortuous bit of 'reasoning' I haven't heard before.