Security Fence proves its worth

[Mycroft]

NETANYA, Israel, Dec. 5 (UPI) -- Aliza Hazan was thrilled. Three times that afternoon she had walked up and down Netanya's main street from the outdoor cafes by the seashore to a shopping mall near the main entrance to town. They are more than a mile apart.

Both had been targets of deadly terrorist attacks and Hazan marveled at the city's signs of recovery. "You see more people in the streets! ... All the shops are open! ... People are eating in restaurants!" she said.
...
The atmosphere changed after Israel built a formidable security barrier, at the edge of the West Bank, 10 miles east of Netanya.



For all the controversy around it, it works.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031204-052619-7513r.htm

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft


For all the controversy around it, it works.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031204-052619-7513r.htm
If it works, I have a suggestion that can make it even better. Firstly, I have no problem with Israel building whatever they want for border security. These bombers are terrorist murderers, they have every right to do whatever they want within Israels borders to catch and bring to justice these murderers.
The problem is that there is some significant variation between this fence line and the borders of Israel.
from the link from Mycroft...

The planned fence aroused international criticism because it cuts into the occupied West Bank, closes off Palestinian areas -- and those living in the areas -- and impedes travel from villages to farms, schools and other public services.

A recent United Nations report noted, "The planned route, if fully constructed, would deviate up to 22 kilometers (almost 14 miles) in places from the Green Line (meaning the pre-1967 boundary line).

"Based on the (planned) route ... approximately 975 square kilometers (600 square miles), or 16.6 per cent of the entire West Bank, will lie between the barrier and the Green Line. This area is home to approximately 17,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and 220,000 in East Jerusalem," the report added.


Now Israel says it is not annexing the land that is now on its side of the fence...Hmmmmm. If its not annexation, I'm not sure what is....

Now back to my suggestion. I think the palestinians should also be allowed to guard the fence and stop the IDF and "settlers" crossing it. I am really glad to hear of Israeli citizens feeling secure from terrorists, Everyone deserves the right to live in peace and security. Palestinians may also like the same feeling of security from The IDF..sound fair?

This fence is the new de-facto borders of israel....At least it may put a stop to the ongoing expansion of Israeli settlements, but I wouldn't mind betting that this fence will have a bad habit of moving ever outwards to surround new and expanded annexations.

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool

Now Israel says it is not annexing the land that is now on its side of the fence...Hmmmmm. If its not annexation, I'm not sure what is....


Damit, and damn them for annexation of land for the Palestinians. I mean if they annex it like you claim then part of it belongs to the people on the other side of the fence, does it not?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


Damit, and damn them for annexation of land for the Palestinians. I mean if they annex it like you claim then part of it belongs to the people on the other side of the fence, does it not?
Are you saying that putting up a new age Berlin wall does not change the status of the extra land on the wall builders side? If its about protecting Israelis and not a formalisation of land already annexed why does it need to be built outside of israel?

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool

Are you saying that putting up a new age Berlin wall does not change the status of the extra land on the wall builders side? If its about protecting Israelis and not a formalisation of land already annexed why does it need to be built outside of israel?

In this case? Yeah I am saying that. See the Palestinains can come and go so long as they mean to work and be peaceful. That wasn't the case in Berlin. and you're not American so you may not be aware of this but you can put "No tresspassing" signs up outside of your property to ensure people have prior warning and knowledge before stepping on it and getting shot and wrongfully suing you because they were to stupid to pay attention to the freaking sign. It's like negotiating in written word

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


In this case? Yeah I am saying that. See the Palestinains can come and go so long as they mean to work and be peaceful. That wasn't the case in Berlin. and you're not American so you may not be aware of this but you can put "No tresspassing" signs up outside of your property to ensure people have prior warning and knowledge before stepping on it and getting shot and wrongfully suing you because they were to stupid to pay attention to the freaking sign. It's like negotiating in written word

so you are saying that the Israelis are putting up "no trespassing" signs on "thier property"....? But they are not annexing this land??
You are not Australian so may not be aware that you can also put "no trespassing" signs up on the borders of your property....I wasn't aware that in america you could just fence off any land you like and decide who may cross this fence, is that the case in America? Could you fence off someones own house from thier farmland and make them ask you for permission to cross it every day to work?

Once again Troll, I have no problems with anyone building whatever sort of fence they like around thier own land. They have every right to try and keep murderers out of thier country...But lets not think for a moment that fencing off land outside of thier borders and occupying it indefinitely with military forces is anything other than annexing it.

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool


so you are saying that the Israelis are putting up "no trespassing" signs on "thier property"....? But they are not annexing this land??
You are not Australian so may not be aware that you can also put "no trespassing" signs up on the borders of your property....I wasn't aware that in america you could just fence off any land you like and decide who may cross this fence, is that the case in America? Could you fence off someones own house from thier farmland and make them ask you for permission to cross it every day to work?

Once again Troll, I have no problems with anyone building whatever sort of fence they like around thier own land. They have every right to try and keep murderers out of thier country...But lets not think for a moment that fencing off land outside of thier borders and occupying it indefinitely with military forces is anything other than annexing it.

I said outside of, meaning just outside of, I can't post it in my neighbors yard. But given the facts of life and war and the losses of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and others that Israel defended themselves from and took over said land, I'd say they have a right to it. Over the attacking country and as such, it's for them to give now and not the others that gave it and abused it.

I'll give you an acre on my own 5. I'll have neighbors on 3 of the acres that surround yours. They take your acre from you to use to attack me. when I kick their ass you're gonna claim that I invaded your land and took it over? Hello? The freaking arab nations annexed the land for themselves in portions as they attacked Israel from it while the land belonged to someone you claim wants to have a peaceful co-existance with Israel.

It's as if they said, here is your land and we all agree to it and peace can reign, but we hate those Israelis so we're stepping into your town to hit them, Oh golly, they kicked our ass and took the land we took from you to attack them with, man, you're screwed, you should complain about it and blame them and fight a long and pointless suicidal war against them. We won't participate, but we'll pay you to go and die for the cause.

Seriously. How can anyone that can use reason and logic support or defend them as you try to do?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


For all the controversy around it, it works.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031204-052619-7513r.htm

It works perfectly, the average Israeli no longer has to give a stuff about the Palestinians and their slow descent into oblivion that Israel is engineering.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Troll


I said outside of, meaning just outside of, I can't post it in my neighbors yard. But given the facts of life and war and the losses of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and others that Israel defended themselves from and took over said land, I'd say they have a right to it. Over the attacking country and as such, it's for them to give now and not the others that gave it and abused it.

I'll give you an acre on my own 5. I'll have neighbors on 3 of the acres that surround yours. They take your acre from you to use to attack me. when I kick their ass you're gonna claim that I invaded your land and took it over? Hello? The freaking arab nations annexed the land for themselves in portions as they attacked Israel from it while the land belonged to someone you claim wants to have a peaceful co-existance with Israel.

It's as if they said, here is your land and we all agree to it and peace can reign, but we hate those Israelis so we're stepping into your town to hit them, Oh golly, they kicked our ass and took the land we took from you to attack them with, man, you're screwed, you should complain about it and blame them and fight a long and pointless suicidal war against them. We won't participate, but we'll pay you to go and die for the cause.

Seriously. How can anyone that can use reason and logic support or defend them as you try to do?

That would have to rank as one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read.

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


That would have to rank as one of the most ignorant posts I have ever read.

Obviously you don't use your own posts as a comparison.

Now if you wanna just post a flame this ain't the place, so explain yourself for once.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Troll


I said outside of, meaning just outside of, I can't post it in my neighbors yard. But given the facts of life and war and the losses of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and others that Israel defended themselves from and took over said land, I'd say they have a right to it.



the words that greeted the Germans on the start of WWII were " we are now returning fire".

[Troll]

Originally posted by a_unique_person


the words that greeted the Germans on the start of WWII were " we are now returning fire".

Uh, did you read that? The words that greeted invaders? Come on, you can't really be that freaking daft, can you? sure, some may be outgunned, but to tell an invader, or tresspasser that you will shoot, is an argument for not even defending yourself at all in your mind?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


I said outside of, meaning just outside of, I can't post it in my neighbors yard.
Lol....you can't put a fence outside your land...but "just outside" is ok?....whatever, can't say your not entertaining.....

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool

Lol....you can't put a fence outside your land...but "just outside" is ok?....whatever, can't say your not entertaining.....

Please don't try to play the stupid game. Your claim that it is on Palistenian land, it's not, it's just outside the edge of Israel on the border of the land they were attacked from. You know, the land the Arabs gave to the Palestinians , the land the same nations used to say, "Screw you palistenians, we're going to use you for our attack on the Israeli people"

don't try to twist things around. Israel could have cared less about the disputed areas had they not been attacked repeatedly from them and decided " screw it, we'll take the land ourselves and void the freaking excuses"

Get real

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


Please don't try to play the stupid game. Your claim that it is on Palistenian land..


Palestinian land? Whats that? show me some on a map. My only claim is that in many places this fence is not within Israels borders. Please quote me where I said anything other than that or withdraw your blatant strawman.

Now If you are saying it is palestinian land then you may want to give them the good news, did you consult Israel who is the military occupation force on the land before you gave it to the palistinians? I think you really need to take a break and get your story straight about who you are supporting here...

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Troll


Uh, did you read that? The words that greeted invaders? Come on, you can't really be that freaking daft, can you? sure, some may be outgunned, but to tell an invader, or tresspasser that you will shoot, is an argument for not even defending yourself at all in your mind?

Yep, read that. Always tell your population when you invade you are defending yourself. This trick has worked many times. Even recently, some examples come to mind.

[Skeptic]

so you are saying that the Israelis are putting up "no trespassing" signs on "thier property"....? But they are not annexing this land??

If it is, so what? Surely, when you offer a state in return for peace (in 2000) on just about all the territory, and recieve in return a three-year war of annihilation, there should be some consequences.

If this war of agression against israel has no consequences (all in the name of the "rights of the palestinian people"), what this really means is that the palestinians have the "right" to keep trying to destroy israel at their leisure with impunity.

The palestinians' claims against the "violation of their rights" and going to the Hauge over it is like a would-be murderer being disarmed from his knife in a fight with his would-be victim and going to court to get the knife back. After all, he owns it, right?

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic
so you are saying that the Israelis are putting up "no trespassing" signs on "thier property"....? But they are not annexing this land??

If it is, so what? Surely, when you offer a state in return for peace (in 2000) on just about all the territory, and recieve in return a three-year war of annihilation, there should be some consequences.

If this war of agression against israel has no consequences (all in the name of the "rights of the palestinian people"), what this really means is that the palestinians have the "right" to keep trying to destroy israel at their leisure with impunity.

The palestinians' claims against the "violation of their rights" and going to the Hauge over it is like a would-be murderer being disarmed from his knife in a fight with his would-be victim and going to court to get the knife back. After all, he owns it, right?

More lies, the conflict between the two states was drastically reduced, even though Israel still maintained settlements in strategic locations in the West Bank, and refused right of return or compensation.

Sharon was happy to help kick the conflict back into life with his visit to the temple mount.

[Zero]

Jeez, Israel finds a new and clever way to steal land from the Palestinians...shall we open the champagne now, or wait until Israel's goal of eventual genocide is complete?:p

[Skeptic]

Originally posted by Zero
Jeez, Israel finds a new and clever way to steal land from the Palestinians...shall we open the champagne now, or wait until Israel's goal of eventual genocide is complete?:p

If israel's goal was genocide, it could have performed it a dozen times over by now.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
If it works, I have a suggestion that can make it even better. Firstly, I have no problem with Israel building whatever they want for border security. These bombers are terrorist murderers, they have every right to do whatever they want within Israel’s borders to catch and bring to justice these murderers.
The problem is that there is some significant variation between this fence line and the borders of Israel.
from the link from Mycroft...


Yes, but the problem is that if the fence were to be built along the borders of Israel, along the Jordan River, it wouldn't separate the Palestinian-Arabs from the Israelis.

Your argument presumes that Israel's borders should be along the green line. That hasn't been negotiated yet. If the Palestinian-Arabs want that land, they should start negotiating in good faith for it right away. In the meantime, the only sovereign state with a claim to it is Israel.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Yes, but the problem is that if the fence were to be built along the borders of Israel, along the Jordan River, it wouldn't separate the Palestinian-Arabs from the Israelis.

Your argument presumes that Israel's borders should be along the green line. That hasn't been negotiated yet. If the Palestinian-Arabs want that land, they should start negotiating in good faith for it right away. In the meantime, the only sovereign state with a claim to it is Israel.

And the only reason that would be true is the "settlements", wouldn't it. Which are subsidised by the state of Israel.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Skeptic


If israel's goal was genocide, it could have performed it a dozen times over by now.

Sharon and friends know better than than to do that. However, what it does is little short of genocide. The Palestinians have been crowded out for 30 years now. The hope is that the Palestinians will give up and leave, allowing Israel to walk into 'empty' land, by making life as difficult as possible for the Palestinians. A military occupation, an act of war, is a good example of this, while relentlessly stealing land for settlements.

A favourite tactic is to build a settlement next to Palestinians, taking some of their land. The inevitable conflict results in the need to improve security, usually by taking more land. This buffer zone is then built on. Repeat from step one.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Yes, but the problem is that if the fence were to be built along the borders of Israel, along the Jordan River, it wouldn't separate the Palestinian-Arabs from the Israelis.

Your argument presumes that Israel's borders should be along the green line. That hasn't been negotiated yet. If the Palestinian-Arabs want that land, they should start negotiating in good faith for it right away. In the meantime, the only sovereign state with a claim to it is Israel.
Well I suppose if the Palestinians had a sovereign state they might have a claim on it too.... I guess my question is where does it end. Israel continues to fund the settlement of people outside of its borders, then builds security walls to enclose them. This is de-facto military conquest, "skeptic" does not have a problem with this, I'm not sure what he see's as the limits to israeli expansionism... Anywhere Arabs live seems fair game.

[a_unique_person]

It is all being done in the name of the Buybull. You may as well use a map of Middle Earth to create a country.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool

Well I suppose if the Palestinians had a sovereign state they might have a claim on it too.... I guess my question is where does it end. Israel continues to fund the settlement of people outside of its borders, then builds security walls to enclose them. This is de-facto military conquest, "skeptic" does not have a problem with this, I'm not sure what he see's as the limits to israeli expansionism... Anywhere Arabs live seems fair game.

You use the term outside its borders again. The Eastern border is along the Jordan River, beyond that is Jordan. If there is to be another border ceding land to the Palestinian-Arabs, that has to be negotiated, which will require the participation of the Palestinian-Arabs.

[a_unique_person]

Originally posted by Mycroft


You use the term outside its borders again. The Eastern border is along the Jordan River, beyond that is Jordan. If there is to be another border ceding land to the Palestinian-Arabs, that has to be negotiated, which will require the participation of the Palestinian-Arabs.

The International consensus is that Palestine is under military occupation. Sharon himself has admitted that they are.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft


You use the term outside its borders again. The Eastern border is along the Jordan River, beyond that is Jordan. If there is to be another border ceding land to the Palestinian-Arabs, that has to be negotiated, which will require the participation of the Palestinian-Arabs.
Is the west bank part of Israel? Even though it has been under Israeli military occupation for most of the lifetime of the people there Israel claims it has not annexed it. Even when it encloses chunks of it inside south african style Apartheid enclaves it still claims it is not annexing the land... This is my point, they are for all practical purposes formalising the annexation of more and more land...where does it stop? What are the limits of Israeli expansion? A Cynical view would be that Sharon sees all of the westbank and ghaza as well as all of Jerusalem being part of a greater Israel with the majority of the origional occupants driven out into surrounding Arab countries.... When are we going to hear another "we have no more territorial demands" line from Sharon and actually see it happen. Sharon has never stopped driving the settlements ever further outwards and I believe he never will. He seems to Prefer a state of war because it makes his settlement expansion easier to rationalise.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Skeptic
If it is, so what? Surely, when you offer a state in return for peace (in 2000) on just about all the territory, and recieve in return a three-year war of annihilation, there should be some consequences.


Lol..."A state" implies how many pieces? your spin on what was offered is quite humerous... The so called "offer" was simplya permanent formalisation of Israeli military control of the west bank...... The palistinians were never going to accept a "state" in the west bank broken into 3 pieces, needing Israeli permission to travel from one part of thier own country to another.... Not to mention Israel continuing to control the Jordan Valley....a "nation " that is not allowed to control its own border with its main trading partner?....What a joke. It appears that 78% or the origional british mandate is not enough for Israel extremists like you...22% for the palestinians is way too much apparently. Lets face facts Skeptic, people like you will not rest until Israel has the entire british mandate and palestinians are driven out....so don't talk to me about wars of anihilation when that is your own obvious goal.

The only hope for this region is that the reasonable majority on both sides can wrestle the agenda from extremists like you and work together for a decent outcome.

[NullPointerException]

I actually think that all Palestinians are terrorists or cowards. I would have built a fence a long time ago and expulsed all Palestinians and forbid them to enter the country. When was the last time you saw a disgruntled mexican suicide bomb a texan border town? There are factors in Palestinian culture that make them unfit to be called civilized as a whole.

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
Is the west bank part of Israel? Even though it has been under Israeli military occupation for most of the lifetime of the people there Israel claims it has not annexed it. Even when it encloses chunks of it inside south african style Apartheid enclaves it still claims it is not annexing the land... This is my point, they are for all practical purposes formalising the annexation of more and more land...where does it stop?

Where does it stop? Well, a negotiated peace with internationally recognized borders would stop it, don't you think?

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Mycroft


Where does it stop? Well, a negotiated peace with internationally recognized borders would stop it, don't you think?
The internationally recognised borders don't seem to stop Israeli settlers or Palestinian murderers or the IDF....

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by NullPointerException
I actually think that all Palestinians are terrorists or cowards. I would have built a fence a long time ago and expulsed all Palestinians and forbid them to enter the country. When was the last time you saw a disgruntled mexican suicide bomb a texan border town? There are factors in Palestinian culture that make them unfit to be called civilized as a whole.

What factors are these? Big mambo lips? Racy blues music? Do they steal white women?

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by The Fool
The internationally recognised borders don't seem to stop Israeli settlers or Palestinian murderers or the IDF....

That's because they haven't been negotiated yet.

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool

Palestinian land? Whats that? show me some on a map. My only claim is that in many places this fence is not within Israels borders. Please quote me where I said anything other than that or withdraw your blatant strawman.

Now If you are saying it is palestinian land then you may want to give them the good news, did you consult Israel who is the military occupation force on the land before you gave it to the palistinians? I think you really need to take a break and get your story straight about who you are supporting here...

Palestinian land would be the land they'd have all to themselves right now if they'd just live up to any of the numerous agreements ever made to give it to them. Land they used to live on that was owned by other countries that had no intention of giving it to them. Land that was lost not by them but by their host nations when they got stupid and lost it. The land that after being lost by Egypt, Jordan and Syria, became Israels.

So if you're claiming the fence is not within their borders why aren't we hearing those three countries claim Israel is building on their land?

[NullPointerException]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


What factors are these? Big mambo lips? Racy blues music? Do they steal white women?

Mainly the way the treat everyone, their de facto support for terrorism, and their lack of central government.

[aerocontrols]

Israeli fencers barred (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=381843&contrassID=1&subContrassID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y).


That should put a stop to all this fencing going on in Israel...