Michael Moore newsletter 12/20

[shemp]

Letters the Troops Have Sent Me... by Michael Moore

December 19, 2003

As we approach the holidays, I've been thinking a lot about our kids who are in the armed forces serving in Iraq. I've received hundreds of letters from our troops in Iraq -- and they are telling me something very different from what we are seeing on the evening news.

What they are saying to me, often eloquently and in heart-wrenching words, is that they were lied to -- and this war has nothing to do with the security of the United States of America.

I've written back and spoken on the phone to many of them and I've asked a few of them if it would be OK if I posted their letters on my website and they've said yes. They do so at great personal risk (as they may face disciplinary measures for exercising their right to free speech). I thank them for their bravery.

Lance Corporal George Batton of the United States Marine Corps, who returned from Iraq in September (after serving in MP company Alpha), writes the following:

"You'd be surprised at how many of the guys I talked to in my company and others believed that the president's scare about Saddam's WMD was a bunch of bullsh*t and that the real motivation for this war was only about money. There was also a lot of crap that many companies, not just marine companies, had to go through with not getting enough equipment to fulfill their missions when they crossed the border. It was a miracle that our company did what it did the two months it was staying in Iraq during the war. We were promised to go home on June 8th, and found out that it was a lie and we got stuck doing missions for an extra three months. Even some of the most radical conservatives in our company including our company gunnery sergeant got a real bad taste in their mouth about the Marine corps, and maybe even president Bush."

Here's what Specialist Mike Prysner of the U.S. Army wrote to me:

"Dear Mike -- I'm writing this without knowing if it'll ever get to you? I'm writing it from the trenches of a war (that's still going on,) not knowing why I'm here or when I'm leaving. I've toppled statues and vandalized portraits, while wearing an American flag on my sleeve, and struggling to learn how to understand. I joined the army as soon as I was eligible -- turned down a writing scholarship to a state university, eager to serve my country, ready to die for the ideals I fell in love with. Two years later I found myself moments away from a landing onto a pitch black airstrip, ready to charge into a country I didn't believe I belonged in, with your words (from the Oscars) repeating in my head. My time in Iraq has always involved finding things to convince myself that I can be proud of my actions; that I was a part of something just. But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation."

An Army private, still in Iraq and wishing to remain anonymous, writes:

"I would like to tell you how difficult it is to serve under a man who was never elected. Because he is the president and my boss, I have to be very careful as to who and what i say about him. This also concerns me a great deal... to limit the military's voice is to limit exactly what America stands for... and the greater percentage of us feel completely underpowered. He continually sets my friends, my family, and several others in a kind of danger that frightens me beyond belief. I know several other soldiers who feel the same way and discuss the situation with me on a regular basis."

Jerry Oliver of the U.S. Army, who has just returned from Baghdad, writes:

"I have just returned home from "Operation Iraqi Freedom". I spent 5 months in Baghdad, and a total of 3 years in the U.S. Army. I was recently discharged with Honorable valor and returned to the States only to be horrified by what I've seen my country turn into. I'm now 22 years old and have discovered America is such a complicated place to live, and moreover, Americans are almost oblivious to what's been happening to their country. America has become "1984." Homeland security is teaching us to spy on one another and forcing us to become anti-social. Americans are willingly sacrificing our freedoms in the name of security, the same Freedoms I was willing to put my life on the line for. The constitution is in jeopardy. As Gen. Tommy Franks said, (broken down of course) One more terrorist attack and the constitution will hold no meaning."

And a Specialist in the U.S. Army wrote to me this week about the capture of Saddam Hussein:

"Wow, 130,000 troops on the ground, nearly 500 deaths and over a billion dollars a day, but they caught a guy living in a hole. Am I supposed to be dazzled?"

There are lots more of these, straight from the soldiers who have been on the front lines and have seen first hand what this war is really about.

I have also heard from their friends and relatives, and from other veterans. A mother writing on behalf of her son (whose name we have withheld) wrote:

"My son said that this is the worst it's been since the "end" of the war. He said the troops have been given new rules of engagement, and that they are to "take out" any persons who aggress on the Americans, even if it results in "collateral" damage. Unfortunately, he did have to kill someone in self defense and was told by his commanding officer "Good kill."

"My son replied "You just don't get it, do you?"

"Here we are...Vietnam all over again."

From a 56 year old Navy veteran, relating a conversation he had with a young man who was leaving for Iraq the next morning:

"What disturbed me most was when I asked him what weapons he carried as a truck driver. He told me the new M-16, model blah blah blah, stuff never made sense to me even when I was in. I asked him what kind of side arm they gave him and his fellow drivers. He explained, "Sir, Reservists are not issued side arms or flack vests as there was not enough money to outfit all the Reservists, only Active Personnel". I was appalled to say the least.

"Bush is a jerk agreed, but I can't believe he is this big an ********* not providing protection and arms for our troops to fight HIS WAR!"

From a 40-year old veteran of the Marine Corps:

"Why is it that we are forever waving the flag of sovereignty, EXCEPT when it concerns our financial interests in other sovereign states? What gives us the right to tell anyone else how they should govern themselves, and live their lives? Why can't we just lead the world by example? I mean no wonder the world hates us, who do they get to see? Young ********** in uniforms with guns, and rich, old, white tourists! Christ, could we put up a worse first impression?"

(To read more from my Iraq mailbag -- and to read these above letters in full -- go to my website: http://www.michaelmoore.com/books-films/dudewheresmycountry/soldierletters/index.php)

Remember back in March, once the war had started, how risky it was to make any anti-war comments to people you knew at work or school or, um, at awards ceremonies? One thing was for sure -- if you said anything against the war, you had BETTER follow it up immediately with this line: "BUT I SUPPORT THE TROOPS!" Failing to do that meant that you were not only unpatriotic and un-American, your dissent meant that YOU were putting our kids in danger, that YOU might be the reason they lose their lives. Dissent was only marginally tolerated IF you pledged your "support" for our soldiers.

Of course, you needed to do no such thing. Why? Because people like you have ALWAYS supported "the troops." Who are these troops? They are our poor, our working class. Most of them enlisted because it was about the only place to get a job or receive the guarantee of a college education. You, my good friends, have ALWAYS, through your good works, your contributions, your activism, your votes, SUPPORTED these very kids who come from the other side of the tracks. You NEVER need to be defensive when it comes to your "support" for the "troops" -- you are the only ones who have ALWAYS been there for them.

It is Mr. Bush and his filthy rich cronies -- whose sons and daughters will NEVER see a day in a uniform -- they are the ones who do NOT support our troops. Our soldiers joined the military and, in doing so, offered to give THEIR LIVES for US if need be. What a tremendous gift that is -- to be willing to die so that you and I don't have to! To be willing to shed their blood so that we may be free. To serve in our place, so that WE don't have to serve. What a tremendous act of selflessness and generosity! Here they are, these 18, 19, and 20-year olds, most of whom have had to suffer under an unjust economic system that is set up NOT to benefit THEM -- these kids who have lived their first 18 years in the worst parts of town, going to the most miserable schools, living in danger and learning often to go without, watching their parents struggle to get by and then be humiliated by a system that is always looking to make life harder for them by cutting their benefits, their education, their libraries, their fire and police, their future.

And then, after this miserable treatment, these young men and women, instead of coming after US to demand a more just society, they go and join the army to DEFEND us and our way of life! It boggles the mind, doesn't it? They not only deserve our thanks, they deserve a big piece of the pie that we dine on, those of us who never have to worry about taking a bullet while we fret over which Palm Pilot to buy the nephew for Christmas.

In fact, all that these kids in the army ask for in return from us is our promise that we never send them into harm's way unless it is for the DEFENSE of our nation, to protect us from being killed by "the enemy."

And that promise, my friends, has been broken. It has been broken in the worst way imaginable. We have sent them into war NOT to defend us, not to protect us, not to spare the slaughter of innocents or allies. We have sent them to war so Bush and Company can control the second largest supply of oil in the world. We have sent them into war so that the Vice President's company can bilk the government for billions of dollars. We have sent them into war based on a lie of weapons of mass destruction and the lie that Saddam helped plan 9-11 with Osama bin Laden.

By doing all of this, Mr. Bush has proven that it is HE who does not support our troops. It is HE who has put their lives in danger, and it is HE who is responsible for the nearly 500 American kids who have now died for NO honest, decent reason whatsoever.

The letters I've received from the friends and relatives of our kids over there make it clear that they are sick of this war and they are scared to death that they may never see their loved ones again. It breaks my heart to read these letters. I wish there was something I could do. I wish there was something we all could do.

Maybe there is. As Christmas approaches (and Hanukkah begins tonight), I would like to suggest a few things each of us could do to make the holidays a bit brighter -- if not safer -- for our troops and their families back home.

1. Many families of soldiers are hurting financially, especially those families of reservists and National Guard who are gone from the full-time jobs ("just one weekend a month and we'll pay for your college education!"). You can help them by contacting the Armed Forces Emergency Relief Funds at http://www.afrtrust.org/ (ignore the rah-rah military stuff and remember that this is money that will help out these families who are living in near-poverty). Each branch has their own relief fund, and the money goes to help the soldiers and families with paying for food and rent, medical and dental expenses, personal needs when pay is delayed, and funeral expenses. You can find more ways to support the troops, from buying groceries for their families to donating your airline miles so they can get home for a visit, by going here.

2. Thousands of Iraqi civilians have been killed by our bombs and indiscriminate shooting. We must help protect them and their survivors. You can do so by supporting the Quakers' drive to provide infant care kits to Iraqi hospitals?find out more here: http://www.afsc.org/iraq/relief/default.shtm. You can also help the people of Iraq by supporting the Iraqi Red Crescent Society?here?s how to contact them: http://www.ifrc.org/address/iq.asp, or you can make an online donation through the International Federation of the Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies by going here: http://www.ifrc.org/HELPNOW/donate/donate_iraq.asp.

3. With 130,000 American men and women currently in Iraq, every community in this country has either sent someone to fight in this war or is home to family members of someone fighting in this war. Organize care packages through your local community groups, activist groups, and churches and send them to these young men and women. The military no longer accepts packages addressed to "Any Soldier," so you'll have to get their names first. Figure out who you can help from your area, and send them books, CDs, games, footballs, gloves, blankets--anything that may make their extended (and extended and extended?) stay in Iraq a little brighter and more comfortable. You can also sponsor care packages to American troops through the USO: http://www.usocares.org/.

4. Want to send a soldier a free book or movie? I'll start by making mine available for free to any soldier serving in Iraq. Just send me their name and address in Iraq (or, if they have already left Iraq, where they are now) and the first thousand emails I get at soldiers@michaelmoore.com will receive a free copy of "Dude..." or a free "Bowling" DVD.

5. Finally, we all have to redouble our efforts to end this war and bring the troops home. That's the best gift we could give them -- get them out of harm's way ASAP and insist that the U.S. go back to the UN and have them take over the rebuilding of Iraq (with the US and Britain funding it, because, well, we have to pay for our mess). Get involved with your local peace group--you can find one near where you live by visiting United for Peace, at: http://www.unitedforpeace.org and the Vietnam Veterans Against War: http://www.vvaw.org/contact/. A large demonstration is being planned for March 20, check here for more details: http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=2136. To get a "Bring Them Home Now" bumper sticker or a poster for your yard, go here: http://bringthemhomenow.org/yellowribbon_graphics/index.html. Also, back only anti-war candidates for Congress and President (Kucinich, Dean, Clark, Sharpton).

I know it feels hopeless. That's how they want us to feel. Don't give up. We owe it to these kids, the troops WE SUPPORT, to get them the hell outta there and back home so they can help organize the drive to remove the war profiteers from office next November.

To all who serve in our armed forces, to their parents and spouses and loved ones, we offer to you the regrets of millions and the promise that we will right this wrong and do whatever we can to thank you for offering to risk your lives for us. That your life was put at risk for Bush's greed is a disgrace and a travesty, the likes of which I have not seen in my lifetime.

Please be safe, come home soon, and know that our thoughts and prayers are with you during this season when many of us celebrate the birth of the prince of "peace."

Yours,

Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
www.michaelmoore.com

Edited for forum-unacceptable words--Shemp

[BTox]

Wow, that has got to be one of biggest loads of ***** I've seen posted here. Moore is the king, no doubt.

[shemp]

Originally posted by BTox
Wow, that has got to be one of biggest loads of ***** I've seen posted here. Moore is the king, no doubt.

So in your book he has no right to pass along the letters of troops or express his opinion?

P.S. I shall not trouble myself further with replies from fleas and specks such as you.

[Zero]

Originally posted by shemp


So in your book he has no right to pass along the letters of troops or express his opinion? No, in right-wing fantasyland, all the troops believe that Bush sits at the right hand of God, anyone who disagrees is a traitor, and the occupation in Iraq is going perfectly.

[BTox]

Originally posted by shemp


So in your book he has no right to pass along the letters of troops or express his opinion?

Sure he does. And I also have the right to characterize his opinion and selective posting of GI opinions as "crap".

Originally posted by shemp
P.S. I shall not trouble myself further with replies from fleas and specks such as you.

Thank you!

[Zero]

Originally posted by BTox


Sure he does. And I also have the right to characterize his opinion and selective posting of GI opinions as "crap".



Thank you! Frankly, what sort of letter did you expect Moore to get? This sounds more real than that ************ form letter from the 'troops' that the military drummed up over the summer. At least these letters were probably written by actual troops, and not their commanding officer.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Zero
Frankly, what sort of letter did you expect Moore to get? This sounds more real than that ************ form letter from the 'troops' that the military drummed up over the summer. At least these letters were probably written by actual troops, and not their commanding officer.

I believe they are actual letters. The point is, what is the majority opinion of the troops in Iraq? Do you honestly believe these letters reflect that?

[Zero]

Originally posted by BTox


I believe they are actual letters. The point is, what is the majority opinion of the troops in Iraq? Do you honestly believe these letters reflect that? Soldiers are smarter than you give them credit for...I'm sure a pretty large majority would agree with at least parts of each of those letters. Trust me, our military isn't made up of a bunch of guys who have alot of faith in politicians, and can smell a lie when they hear one.

[BTox]

Originally posted by Zero
[B]...I'm sure a pretty large majority would agree with at least parts of each of those letters. [B]

You're sure? Based on what evidence? Have you conducted a poll recently? For someone who keeps harping about lies you seem to have no problem telling them...

[specious_reasons]

Hey! The US military has the same range of opinions as the general population.... who would have thunk it?

[Zero]

Originally posted by BTox


You're sure? Based on what evidence? Have you conducted a poll recently? For someone who keeps harping about lies you seem to have no problem telling them... Based on personal experience, and plenty of barracks bull sessions. And, even if it is a minority view(note that I said a majority would agree with parts of the letters), it is still a viewpoint that should be aired. In America, we have this thing called freedom...have you heard of it? It applies to minority viewpoints too, or else it wouldn't actually be freedom, would it?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
Based on personal experience, and plenty of barracks bull sessions. And, even if it is a minority view(note that I said a majority would agree with parts of the letters), it is still a viewpoint that should be aired. In America, we have this thing called freedom...have you heard of it? It applies to minority viewpoints too, or else it wouldn't actually be freedom, would it?

Personal experience? Too much. Pray tell, Pvt. Pyle.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


Personal experience? Too much. Pray tell, Pvt. Pyle. Uh huh...unlike most of the so-called patriots in the Bush administration, I actually served in the military...I'm absolutely positive taht the troops are complaining daily about the occupation of Iraq.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
Uh huh...unlike most of the so-called patriots in the Bush administration, I actually served in the military...I'm absolutely positive taht the troops are complaining daily about the occupation of Iraq.

I know you're big on judgmental vagueness, but how about a little more, Zero? I'm truly curious. Any bozo could say "I was in the military." Details, please, or I'll disregard this as more of your holier-than-thou blather.

Did you serve during the Iraqi war? Is that what makes you so attuned to the feelings of the soldier on the ground?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


I know you're big on judgmental vagueness, but how about a little more, Zero? I'm truly curious. Any bozo could say "I was in the military." Details, please, or I'll disregard this as more of your holier-than-thou blather.

Did you serve during the Iraqi war? Is that what makes you so attuned to the feelings of the soldier on the ground? I was just a hair young for Desert Storm, but most of the people I served with and under were 'on the ground' in Iraq, or Somalia, or Bosnia...and they absolutely had varying opinions on what went on there, as well as the government's motives in how the military was utilized. Most of the folks I knew were pragmatic realists; they knew they had a job to do, but very few people were rah-rah flag wavers.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
I was just a hair young for Desert Storm, but most of the people I served with and under were 'on the ground' in Iraq, or Somalia, or Bosnia...and they absolutely had varying opinions on what went on there, as well as the government's motives in how the military was utilized. Most of the folks I knew were pragmatic realists; they knew they had a job to do, but very few people were rah-rah flag wavers.

Too bad, since they were volunteers. And judging from the characteristic lack of details and the wealth of unsupported opinion, I'm classifying your "service" right next to the Loch Ness Monster. You're going to have to learn that claims need backup around here.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


Too bad, since they were volunteers. And judging from the characteristic lack of details and the wealth of unsupported opinion, I'm classifying your "service" right next to the Loch Ness Monster. You're going to have to learn that claims need backup around here. What do you want, a copy of my DD-214? A little respect for my privacy, if'n you don't mind. I WILL tell you that I was a Marine stationed at Camp Lejeune, I was in the artillery., and I was honorably discharged after serving out my contract. You wanna see my medals?:p

[Zero]

BTW, I'll bet you wouldn't say 'who cares' if it was something positive from the troops, would you? You can't just pick and choose which opinions are valid, can you? Positive opinions from troops should be shared, and the people with negative views should get over it?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
BTW, I'll bet you wouldn't say 'who cares' if it was something positive from the troops, would you? You can't just pick and choose which opinions are valid, can you? Positive opinions from troops should be shared, and the people with negative views should get over it?

Funny how you quickly divert the conversation away from your alleged service, and rather that actually support your point you try to put words in my mouth.

Very telling indeed. I imagine a real military man would have risen to the challenge, rather than try to cast random aspersions on someone whose opinions he knows little about.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


Funny how you quickly divert the conversation away from your alleged service, and rather that actually support your point you try to put words in my mouth.

Very telling indeed. I imagine a real military man would have risen to the challenge, rather than try to cast random aspersions on someone whose opinions he knows little about. In other words, you DO want to see my medals?!?;)

[KelvinG]

I think it's very interesting to hear a point of view from disgruntled soldiers. Is it a majority point of view? Probably not. But, it's still enlightening to hear there is some disdain and frustration among some soldiers.

Of course, it's amusing that Moore will get lambasted for his "propoganda" by printing these letters, when in reality, this is likely the only way we can actually find out that such viewpoints exist. You don't see many stories on the mainstream media about "Angry soldiers in Iraq." The American government certainly won't be providing us with a balanced picture of the average soldier's opinion. Should we accuse the governement of being spin doctors and propogandists because they only emphasize the positive and ignore the negative? Oh, I forgot, that's just good politics.

Even if the letters Moore prints represent a minority point of view (which they likely do) I'm still interested in reading them. It's quite eye opening to hear voices of dissent.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
In other words, you DO want to see my medals?!?;)


You mean your merit badges from the Cub Scouts? I don't believe a word you say about your military "experience."

No, I'd much rather see where a "good soldier" like yourself gets off on re-interpreting the Geneva Conventions to suit his politics.

Now that's a more frightening thought than any conspiracy theory you could espouse. Thank heaven the soldiers involved in Saddam's capture had better heads on their shoulders.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko



You mean your merit badges from the Cub Scouts? I don't believe a word you say about your military "experience."

No, I'd much rather see where a "good soldier" like yourself gets off on re-interpreting the Geneva Conventions to suit his politics.

Now that's a more frightening thought than any conspiracy theory you could espouse. Thank heaven the soldiers involved in Saddam's capture had better heads on their shoulders. Marines don't like t be called soldiers, you goof!! Anyhoo, my medals aren't much, just a National Defence(the crackerjack), a Good Conduct(the good cookie) and the Navy Achievement Medal, which is the most ungodly color...I mean really, green and orange?

BTW, you don't know anything about the soldiers who captured Saddam.

[Zero]

Originally posted by KelvinG
I think it's very interesting to hear a point of view from disgruntled soldiers. Is it a majority point of view? Probably not. But, it's still enlightening to hear there is some disdain and frustration among some soldiers.

Of course, it's amusing that Moore will get lambasted for his "propoganda" by printing these letters, when in reality, this is likely the only way we can actually find out that such viewpoints exist. You don't see many stories on the mainstream media about "Angry soldiers in Iraq." The American government certainly won't be providing us with a balanced picture of the average soldier's opinion. Should we accuse the governement of being spin doctors and propogandists because they only emphasize the positive and ignore the negative? Oh, I forgot, that's just good politics.

Even if the letters Moore prints represent a minority point of view (which they likely do) I'm still interested in reading them. It's quite eye opening to hear voices of dissent. *nods* It is absolutely a good thing to hear multiple viewpoints. An especially interesting thing to hear about is how troops don't have enough of the proper gear, which regardless of your political viewpoint is a completely unsatisfactory situation.

[tamiO]

bump :)

[Luke T.]

As the Army closed out fiscal 2003 at the end of September, so many soldiers had raised their right hands to re-enlist that the service met its retention goals and then some, retaining 106 percent of the soldiers it hoped to keep.

“We needed 51,000 soldiers to re-enlist, and we got 54,151,” said Sgt. Maj. James Vales, a senior retention manager at Army headquarters in Washington.

http://www.instapundit.com/archives/012391.php

[Dorian Gray]

You people should see someone about your jerking knees - I am sure therapy is available.

The opinions of the military are roughly the same as the general population. Some of them question what they are doing in Iraq, and the reservists without proper equipment certainly do so.

Your problem is that you want to completely ignore the fact that some members of our armed forces dislike the war in Iraq. You use ad hominem attacks instead of using your eyes to read the damn letters from soldiers who were not afraid to give their names.

And where is YOUR record of military service, Jacko? YOU had better present some credentials yourself if you want to go around making comments like "Thank heaven the soldiers involved in Saddam's capture had better heads on their shoulders." Let's start with the names of the soldiers.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero


BTW, you don't know anything about the soldiers who captured Saddam.

I know they have a better grasp on the rules of war than you do.

[corplinx]

The sad thing is how deluded some of those troops are. And people said the partisan bickering at home and accusations don't effect what the troops abroad think.

And what does Moore get in his letters? "But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation". Thoughts that are the byproduct of poor dissent such as his own.

[Luke T.]

I am retired Navy. I'll gladly post a photo of my shadow box if anyone doubts me.

It has always been a complaint, during war or peace, among military people that they don't have enough equipment. Even during the glory days of the buildup under Reagan, we occasionally found ourselves buying parts at Radio Shack out of our own pockets.

Sailors bitch. They bitch every minute of the day. Doesn't matter what about. They just bitch. Thus the expression we had that "a bitching sailor is a happy sailor." I have no reason to doubt that the army has a similar saying. Or the Marines. Or the Air Force.

I'll tell what the talk around the military was in 1991. It was, "Why the hell didn't we go all the way to Bagdad?"

Unlike Zero who claims to have associates who were in Bosnia and the Persian Gulf, I have been to both personally. You want to know what we bitched about? It wasn't about Clinton or Bush or any politicians. It was about being away from home too long. It was about the lousy chow. It was about what a bastard the Executive Officer was. It was about the lack of sleep and how long since we had seen a port. It was about our wives maxing out the credit cards while we were gone. And more than one sailor had gotten a "Dear John" letter from a wife or girlfriend and had to be watched carefully.

I rarely heard anyone bring up the Command in Chief and what they thought of him or if we were being lied to. I can't recall a single person claiming we were being lied to. I remember a few jeers about Clinton and his zipper problem.

As for the military having the same opinions as the general population, I would challenge that any day of the week. The number of men and women in the military who are critical of Bush is probably much lower than the general population.

Watch the next election. Check out the percentage of military votes for Bush. It will be higher than the general population percentage. Guarantee. And Michael Moore knows it, too.

[Zero]

Originally posted by corplinx
The sad thing is how deluded some of those troops are. And people said the partisan bickering at home and accusations don't effect what the troops abroad think.

And what does Moore get in his letters? "But no matter what pro-war argument I came up with, I pictured my smirking commander-in-chief, thinking he was fooling a nation". Thoughts that are the byproduct of poor dissent such as his own. Nothing wrong with dissent...it is as American as apple pie.

[Zero]

I wouldn't be counting on that military vote quite as much as in the past, since Bush has been pretty anti-military and anti-veteran in practice, whatever his speeches might say.

[corplinx]

Originally posted by Zero
Nothing wrong with dissent...it is as American as apple pie.

Principled dissent is a good thing. Someone always need to ask "is this the right thing to do". Moore's line of dissent is based on oil connections conspiracies, cia training osama, etc etc.

[KelvinG]

Originally posted by corplinx


Principled dissent is a good thing. Someone always need to ask "is this the right thing to do". Moore's line of dissent is based on oil connections conspiracies, cia training osama, etc etc.

Some of Moore's cock and bull line of thinking reminds me of Bush's cock and bull lines about why Iraq was invaded in the first place. Y'know, weapons of mass destruction, links to Al Qaeda, imminent nuclear threat.
Looks like propoganda and deception run both ways.

[Dancing David]

( I am not nor have I ever been in the military)

I like Micheal Moore, I am glad that he is there to say the things that a lot of people think but won't say.

But I don't like the way he does it, maybe being obnoxiuos is a way of getting attention, I don't know. Maybe he is making a parody of people who quote soldiers to back what they have to say. I don't know.

I like Mr. Moore but I don't like the way he does things. It comes off as disingenuine.

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Zero
I wouldn't be counting on that military vote quite as much as in the past, since Bush has been pretty anti-military and anti-veteran in practice, whatever his speeches might say.

I'll tell you why I disagree. As a veteran of many long separations from home due to military deployments, I can tell you that during the away period, it really, really sucks. And sometimes you just plain hate it. But once it is over and behind you, the memory quickly fades of how bad it was, especially if you feel like you actually did some good in the world. Made an impact. And everyone of our men and women "over there" made one hell of an impact, and they know it. They will be walking tall. I've already seen some of them come home, and they are proud and deservedly so.

Bush will get a huge military vote.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Luke T.


I'll tell you why I disagree. As a veteran of many long separations from home due to military deployments, I can tell you that during the away period, it really, really sucks. And sometimes you just plain hate it. But once it is over and behind you, the memory quickly fades of how bad it was, especially if you feel like you actually did some good in the world. Made an impact. And everyone of our men and women "over there" made one hell of an impact, and they know it. They will be walking tall. I've already seen some of them come home, and they are proud and deservedly so.

Bush will get a huge military vote. Well...good points, but I'm not seeing it that way. I guess we'll see which factors play out next year, won't we?;)

[Zero]

Originally posted by corplinx


Principled dissent is a good thing. Someone always need to ask "is this the right thing to do". Moore's line of dissent is based on oil connections conspiracies, cia training osama, etc etc. Well, if you want to include Moore's books...LOL

[Troll]

I wasn't a "hair to young" for the first Gulf War. Yes people are gonna hate being there. It sucks being away from your loved ones. When the action began the complaining died ( not faded, but died a quick and hard death), not because there weren't things to complain about, incoming artillery waking you up in your nice little hole in the ground sucks and we'd bitch about it, but it stopped because we finally went to work. When it was over, we waited to go home. Each day that passed that we weren't moving closer to the rear or actually on a plane home the bitching grew. It takes time to pull out and we all knew that from past deployments, but we still bitched because we didn't have much else to do.

While there though, it was noticable beyond belief that if you ran into reservists, mostly MP's, the complaining was damned near endless. Mostly because they weren't use to any long periods away from home to begin with, and no offense to the Army but even they don't rotate for 6 month deployments which can get extended at a moments notice.

When we got home from the first one, as with all deployments, the stuff we were complaining about was quickly forgotten and put into that part of the brain that guys use when they try to impress some chick with their little war stories. The new focus was booze and getting laid. Cognitive disonance is a funny thing.

You have to be careful with Moore. He's heavilly focused on his agenda and hearing himself speak. More often than not, when hit with something he doesn't have a snappy comeback for he switches subjects. Sure he's going to post letters that support his side. The chances of getting letters from the higher percentage of active duty military personel that disagree with him are slim due to three reasons.

1. Those that hate him are going to focus more on the job at hand and don't care to spend time writing someone they disagree with.

2. Some would love to write but are cautious as their words may be taken as a threat by someone that has a tendancy for showboating.

3. Moore wouldn't post them because they would counter his beliefs.

Sure some just don't want to be there. Some just don't want to be anywhere at all but on a base in the states and should have thought harder about things before enlisting to begin with. And some are like Zero who want to get in get the bennies and get out. But when the majority of troops speak, what do you get? Zero, Moore, shemp and others doubting them, claiming it was all staged for PR and that it's just not true as though evidence from a small percentage would support them.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Jocko


Funny how you quickly divert the conversation away from your alleged service, and rather that actually support your point you try to put words in my mouth.

Very telling indeed. I imagine a real military man would have risen to the challenge, rather than try to cast random aspersions on someone whose opinions he knows little about.

This sort of thing happens on the internet all the time, Jocko. Person A says he was in the military, Person B says ************, and neither can find a way to prove it without comprimising the other's privacy. Please don't turn this into another one of those sessions, they are very annoying and boring. Take his claim of military service with a grain of salt, but don't keep -you will pardon the pun- jocking him.

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll
And some are like Zero who want to get in get the bennies and get out. What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks.

Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking.

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero
What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks.

Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking.


And how did you get the metal in your leg? Was it a factor in your discharge? Did you take the GI Bill? Did you intend to stay in longer than one enlistment? Other than a Good Conduct medal, what others did you earn?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll



And how did you get the metal in your leg? Was it a factor in your discharge? Did you take the GI Bill? Did you intend to stay in longer than one enlistment? Other than a Good Conduct medal, what others did you earn? Dude, you missed my NAM...and I really don't think this thread should be about my military service. If it is, I'd rather talk about this nation's fine strip clubs, and how they treat our troops...:p

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by Zero
What bennies? The 11 pieces of metal in my leg?!?LOL, don't presume to judge me or my service, I served honorably, which is more than we can say about alot of folks.

Besides that little bit, I can mostly agree with your post, but nevertheless it is important to hear more than one viewpoint, and certainly it is never a bad thing to know what people who disagree with you are thinking.

I agree with the absolute necessity to hear an alternative viewpoint, and I appreciate everything you have to say. I think the disagreement here is with Mr. Moore and his well-established pattern of deception. These letters just seem to be another one in a series of deceptions. Sure, he got letters from unhappy military men, but they in no way represent anything more than a tiny fraction of the military.

I do not doubt your military service or your patriotism.

As for the strip clubs, just remember, there's no sex in the champagne room!!!

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Zero
In other words, you DO want to see my medals?!?;)

No,

I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??)
Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are)

-z

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by rikzilla


No,

I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??)
Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are)

-z

I don't know when Zero got out, but I've only been retired for three years, and already I can't remember all of my NEC numbers. I can remember all of my duty stations and PCS dates and so on, though.

[rikzilla]

Back on topic....

The only troops that are ever going to write a letter to such a person as MM will usually have negative things to say about Bush and the military mission in Iraq. Even if he got letters telling him what a piece of crap he is I doubt he'd share those with us. Therefore Shemp's posting of this nonsense is merely another episode of data mining.

-z

(BTW,...I don't believe Zero. If he has "11 pieces of metal" in his leg, then how did that happen? Sounds like it would be a great story?? Also, one would think he'd have listed the purple heart among his few medals.)

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by Luke T.


I don't know when Zero got out, but I've only been retired for three years, and already I can't remember all of my NEC numbers. I can remember all of my duty stations and PCS dates and so on, though.

I ETS'd on July 14th 1981...and I still remember both my primary and secondary MOS nbrs. Zeros a poseur...trust me. My S detector is buzzing.

-z

[Ralph]

Originally posted by rikzilla


I ETS'd on July 14th 1981...and I still remember both my primary and secondary MOS nbrs. Zeros a poseur...trust me. My S detector is buzzing.

-z

Speaking of "S" detectors going off....in another thread Zero argues that a non US - UN military force could've kicked the living crap out of the Iraquis.

He then goes on to argue AGAINST the US having command of an invasion force..and then goes on to imply that the US must have "less than noble goals for wanting to control the invasion points".


Does this sound like a US marine talking????????

Would a marine going into a well defended urban environment---defended with dug in troops, tanks, and possibly even nerve gas.....argue that rather than be under the command of his own officers.......he'd prefer a motley crew of unknowns--some of whom may not even speak his language-----simply because it's the PC thing to do??????


I think the majority of US troops recognize MM for what he is........an over-fed publicity whore who's doing them far more harm then good.

I think HE should visit the troops over there. I wonder what kind of reception he'd get.

[Zero]

Originally posted by rikzilla


No,

I want you to tell me what your "artillery" MOS was. Then you could give your last two duty stations...you know, company/battalion APO and so on....(Surely you remember??)
Then you could tell us about the last two training events you participated in prior to ETS...along with PCS and ETS dates (if you happen to have any idea what those are)

-z Would you like my SSN and my credit card numbers too?!? LOL


BTW, in arty, the unit is 'battery', not 'company'.

[Zero]

Originally posted by rikzilla

(BTW,...I don't believe Zero. If he has "11 pieces of metal" in his leg, then how did that happen? Sounds like it would be a great story?? Also, one would think he'd have listed the purple heart among his few medals.) Actually, it isn't any sort of exciting story at all...we were on the OP just off Sicily drop zone at Ft. Bragg, and while we were packing out I got my foot caught in some gear and broke my leg in two places...

Now, anyone who served with me will know exactly who I am, and if I were lying, wouldn't I have a better story than that?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Zero
Actually, it isn't any sort of exciting story at all...we were on the OP just off Sicily drop zone at Ft. Bragg, and while we were packing out I got my foot caught in some gear and broke my leg in two places...

So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far.

By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel.

But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions.

Now, anyone who served with me will know exactly who I am, and if I were lying, wouldn't I have a better story than that?

Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available?

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Jocko


So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far.

By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel.

But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions.

[B]

Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available?

What do you do for a living, Jocko?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


What do you do for a living, Jocko?

Relevance? Since I'm long out of college and not hip to the current political trend du jour, I doubt we have much to discuss conversationally.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Jocko

Relevance? Since I'm long out of college and not hip to the current political trend du jour, I doubt we have much to discuss conversationally.
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. What college are you going to? What're you studying?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. What college are you going to? What're you studying?

I know you're a slow study when it comes to direct answers to direct questions - most of your political stripe are - but let me summarize.

Not a lady.
Not a college student, but completed college many years ago. You may have been tipped off to this fact when I mentioned I was years beyond college (a place you can only dream of).
I studied English Literature, Creative Writing, Latin and Theatre. I took my degree in Lit/Writing.
I'm old enough to remember what a washout Carter was.

And one thing I never, never do is protest too much. I leave that to the kiddies in the classroom, who are unencumbered by such distractions as... oh, say, reality.

Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal.

[Mr Manifesto]

Originally posted by Jocko


I know you're a slow study when it comes to direct answers to direct questions - most of your political stripe are - but let me summarize.

Not a lady.
Not a college student, but completed college many years ago. You may have been tipped off to this fact when I mentioned I was years beyond college (a place you can only dream of).
I studied English Literature, Creative Writing, Latin and Theatre. I took my degree in Lit/Writing.
I'm old enough to remember what a washout Carter was.

And one thing I never, never do is protest too much. I leave that to the kiddies in the classroom, who are unencumbered by such distractions as... oh, say, reality.

Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal.

Wow, another n00b pretending to be a "Carter era" vet. Everything you know about Carter, you got off a moderate right-wing web site. Unless you can tell us what some of your essays were titled with a brief synopsis?

[Jocko]

Originally posted by Mr Manifesto


Wow, another n00b pretending to be a "Carter era" vet. Everything you know about Carter, you got off a moderate right-wing web site. Unless you can tell us what some of your essays were titled with a brief synopsis?

Your choice of "n00b" perfectly demonstrates why someone like me has no personal interest in someone like you. And if you're going to try to goad me into giving up something, you're going to have to be a little less transparent, son.

Amazing, how you seem to know everything about me. Never fear, I thought I knew everything when I was your age too. The real world will cure you of that soon enough.

Edited to add: A quick look confirms that I've been here for two years, as opposed to your 9 months. While you may have racked up a billion posts since then, you have yet to make a single point.... n00b.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Jocko


Again, please explain what relevance this could possibly have? I'm afraid I'm not in the market for a new web pal.

well jocko old son...you are typing in English so your English qualifications (if they are true) are relevant..... I personally don't see how any opinion you could have that is typed in english can be taken seriously when there is so much doubt about your college experience...

Also I doubt If rik has ever been a Major General....oops, hang on, he has never claimed that, sorry rik.

Luke may have been in the Navy and I may be the queen of Sheeba. Shemp is definitely an Ex CIA agent and probably trans-sexual. Manifesto is actually 5 years old and has to sit on His sisters Knee to reach the keyboard........

Have I missed anything else as important as Zero's military record??

[Jocko]

Originally posted by The Fool



Have I missed anything else as important as Zero's military record??

When you claim it as the basis for an almost clairvoyant ability to judge the mindset of the average soldier, then yes, it is relevant, particularly when it is stacked against so many contrary (and frankly, more credible) assessments.

Why would you feel so threatened by that? I know Mr. M is simply trolling for trouble - so sue me if I make him work for it.

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Luke T.
It has always been a complaint, during war or peace, among military people that they don't have enough equipment. Even during the glory days of the buildup under Reagan, we occasionally found ourselves buying parts at Radio Shack out of our own pockets.

Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets.

Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached?

[Luke T.]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets.

Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached?

Only around the office. :D

[Troll]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


Hey even people like me who were (at the time) dependants can remember Graham-Rudmann and it's effect on military budgets.

Did you notice how the ubiquitus black government ballpoints grew scarcer and scarcer as September approached?

Do you need one? I got out in 1994 and recently discovered I have like 10 working ones around the house. It wasn't theft. I just kept leaving the one I had in my other set of cammies.

[Jocko]

I see Mr. Manifesto has crawled back under his rock after tossing the obligatory daily grenade. Why is he always surprised when the target throws it back at him? I mean, it happens all the time. I thought these college kids were supposed to be smart. Ah well, I guess they can't all be winners.

Oh, those crazy kids. Remember when you were that age?

[Troll]

Originally posted by Jocko
I see Mr. Manifesto has crawled back under his rock after tossing the obligatory daily grenade. Why is he always surprised when the target throws it back at him? I mean, it happens all the time. I thought these college kids were supposed to be smart. Ah well, I guess they can't all be winners.

Oh, those crazy kids. Remember when you were that age?

I do remember when I was that age. I was throwing real grenades and hanging out with about 185,000 other guys that would say Moore, Manifesto and AUP were actually the mindless drones being led by lies they would like to claim we were.

[The Fool]

Originally posted by Troll


I do remember when I was that age. I was throwing real grenades and hanging out with about 185,000 other guys that would say Moore, Manifesto and AUP were actually the mindless drones being led by lies they would like to claim we were.
Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind.

[Jocko]

Originally posted by The Fool

Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind.

Uh, he mentioned his service in support of an opinion, not as the basis of an assertion of fact like Zero did. Therein lies the critical difference.

As to me, let me just tell you that I've served in the elite corps of the Salvation Army. Yeah, you heard me right, nancy-boy. Those sissies in the marines and army rangers have nothing on me.

Yeah, it's left some scars. Deep scars. I can still hear the bells.


Edited to add: For the humor-impaired (like Mr. Manifesto), that's what we call a joke. I figured I'd better cover my bases before you took off and ran with it as you're so prone to do.

[Troll]

Originally posted by The Fool

Carefull Troll, If you say too much Rikzilla will pop in here to cross examine you about your claims of military service... Or was it the Borg you served with? You seem to indicate that they all shared the one mind.

Well I'm not one of those little paranoid people. I'd block out the social security number, because I'm not a moron either, but I'd gladly post my DD-214 and whatever anyone else that doubts me feel they may need.

Never said they all shared the same mind. You seem to read what you want in a post, which explains your failings with Skeptic. I said "about 185,000.;)

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


When you claim it as the basis for an almost clairvoyant ability to judge the mindset of the average soldier, then yes, it is relevant, particularly when it is stacked against so many contrary (and frankly, more credible) assessments.

Why would you feel so threatened by that? I know Mr. M is simply trolling for trouble - so sue me if I make him work for it. That's odd, I only claimed that I heard more than one viewpoint when I was in. Some people apparently think that the military is like Rush Limbaugh's dittoheads, and only have one opinion. I even said that the viewpoints Moore was showing were a minority one, so where's your beef?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Jocko


So surgical pins, not shrapnel as one would be led to believe by your generalized use of "metal." True to form so far.

By the way, there would be no such need for 11 reconstructive pins for a compound fracture unless the leg was shattered. As a "veteran" of multiple knee operations, the pins story is even more outlandish than the idea of shrapnel.

But in any event, you never served during combat operations? Funny, but several who have - look to Rik and Luke for examples - seem to disagree with your assessment of the average soldier's opinions.

[B]

Unless this was a poor attempt at a double bluff, which I believe it is. Perhaps you could offer a reference. Is your old scoutmaster available? Actually, it was a plate, 6 screws, 2 pins, and two staples.

And, look, since you don't know how to read what I post, stop responding to it. When did I say that the opinions stated were the 'average soldier's'? Nowhere, especially since I was defending those opinions as a valid MINORITY viewpoint.

[Zero]

Anyhoo, I'm waiting for INTERESTING questions about my service, or I'd prefer to let the whole thing drop...


You know, the stuff that interests the average Marine, like how much those 30-packs of Coors Extra Gold were on base, or which "dancer" was my favorite at Ft. Sill....($10.99, and Maggie with the 'million dollar a$$')

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Zero
Anyhoo, I'm waiting for INTERESTING questions about my service, or I'd prefer to let the whole thing drop...

You know, the stuff that interests the average Marine, like how much those 30-packs of Coors Extra Gold were on base, or which "dancer" was my favorite at Ft. Sill....($10.99, and Maggie with the 'million dollar a$$')

That clinches it for me. You knew Jarheads get their artillery training at Ft. Sill. A poseur would have said Quantico or 29 Palms or something.

Couple more tests to make absolutely sure though. Please define the first two and explain the third.

Ogive
Polaris-Cochab
101 or 119

[Zero]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


That clinches it for me. You knew Jarheads get their artillery training at Ft. Sill. A poseur would have said Quantico or 29 Palms or something.

Couple more tests to make absolutely sure though. Please define the first two and explain the third.

Ogive
Polaris-Cochab
101 or 119

Ummm....the first one I'm at a loss for, Polaris-Cochab is familiar, something about land nav, I think?

Dude, I was FDC and Survey most of the time...and I learned the IFSAS by rote...so I could probably alt-A, alt N you though a fire mission, or lay some guns(with a T2-E, not an aiming circle, only the batteries used crappy old aiming circles), MP-HOB registrations maybe, but that's about it...mostly, I remember drilling in SEAD missions and trying to bracket targets...

BTW, I was at Ft. Sill TWICE....jeez, that place sucks!!

[Zero]

Oh, and ummm...101 and 119 are howitzers? If they are, they must be 105mm howitzers, because we used 155mm exclusively. Darned Army has all sorts of neat stuff the Marines never get!!

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Zero
Oh, and ummm...101 and 119 are howitzers? If they are, they must be 105mm howitzers, because we used 155mm exclusively. Darned Army has all sorts of neat stuff the Marines never get!!

The must have fully fazed out the old M-101 105mm by the time you went through. They sucked for gunnery because the declination was only 3200 mils or something like that. They even had blast shields them.

I trained on the 102 for my 105mm for gunnery. And they were just introducing the M-119 and Paladin and what would be come Cusader was still referred to as AFAS. On the obselencance side, the Guard unit I was going to was 8in. I sent about 20 of those down range during gunnery. I was supposed to do MLRS school, but never got the chance as I blew out my back during the last few weeks of OBC and was medically retired a few months after completing it and like 2 drills with my NG unit.

FAOBC was cool though as I got experience in gunnery, Fire Support and Fire Direction.

Ogive btw is where the fuse screws into the shell (technically to ogive ring) and Polaris-Kochab is a night time surveying method (again, probably obsolete in these days of GPS).

[Zero]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner


The must have fully fazed out the old M-101 105mm by the time you went through. They sucked for gunnery because the declination was only 3200 mils or something like that. They even had blast shields them.

I trained on the 102 for my 105mm for gunnery. And they were just introducing the M-119 and Paladin and what would be come Cusader was still referred to as AFAS. On the obselencance side, the Guard unit I was going to was 8in. I sent about 20 of those down range during gunnery. I was supposed to do MLRS school, but never got the chance as I blew out my back during the last few weeks of OBC and was medically retired a few months after completing it and like 2 drills with my NG unit.

FAOBC was cool though as I got experience in gunnery, Fire Support and Fire Direction.

Ogive btw is where the fuse screws into the shell (technically to ogive ring) and Polaris-Kochab is a night time surveying method (again, probably obsolete in these days of GPS).

Yeah, well...when I went through, mostly what I remember about the guns was wondering why they would use bags of cordite(?) with numbers on them to propel the round, in the late 20th century...and laughing when the gun bunnies tried to do a 'hasty shift' of the guns by picking up the trails and moving the gun around by brute force!!!

LOL, and I was always weak in night survey, with the PADS and all, and the warrant officer being too lazy to go outside at night...

You ever had to fill out one of the DA 4446 books, the little brown ones that would couldn't erase in, and you had to void the whole page if you made too many mistakes? My handwriting is STILL tiny from those!

[UnrepentantSinner]

As someone who was in FDC you must appreciate how simple the firing process is compared to how truly difficult it would be using firing tables (and worse yet log books) to adjust simply with elevation and declination if there was just one poweder bag to fit all. That's not to say it's easy... just a hell of a lot more simple than it could be.

The gunnery was fun. I enjoyed firing the 105mm for most of our practice and and of course the 8 inch. The only guys I felt really sorry for were those using the M-198. Man what a pain the a** that must be to work on the crew. I also got to fire a 107mm mortar during a familiarization day with the Mech pukes.

Fire Direction was interesting because it challenged you mentally and you really got into the science of artillery. Fire Support was fun because we got to blow s*** up and it's more of the art of artillery.

Did you ever get to see a combined arms demonstration with a million dollar minute? The one they put on for us started with an old Civil War bronze cannon, then a French 75, introduced the M-119 and M--109A6 Paladin then progressed to the Mil$minute. We had tanks, tube artillery, Apaches, MLRS and even a B-1 out of Dyess flying around. It was amazing.

I forget most of the forms we had to fill out but I do remember how persnickerty we had to be with filling them out correctly. Nothing ends an officers career faster than a gun exploding and killing 5 people.

Did you do the old fashioned plotting boards, slide rules and log books or did they finally get rid of that stuff?

[Graham]

What's a million dollar minute?

Graham

[UnrepentantSinner]

Originally posted by Graham
What's a million dollar minute?

Graham

It's when all the weapons systems fire at about the same time expending "a million dollars" in ordenance in about a minute. I was able to find a Geocites page that Google showed has photos of an example, unfortunately the page was dead.

[shemp]

The Fool wrote:

Shemp is definitely an Ex CIA agent and probably trans-sexual.

The latter is definitely untrue. I just like to dress up now and then.

As for the former, the helicopters are on their way. For your own good, please stay where you are and do not resist.

[rikzilla]

Originally posted by The Fool



Also I doubt If rik has ever been a Major General....oops, hang on, he has never claimed that, sorry rik.



"Modern" Major General that is!

I am the very model of a modern Major-General,
I've information vegetable, animal, and mineral,
I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical;
I'm very well acquainted, too, with matters mathematical,
I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical,
About binomial theorem I'm teeming with a lot o' news,
With many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.

:D :D :D

[Zero]

Originally posted by UnrepentantSinner
As someone who was in FDC you must appreciate how simple the firing process is compared to how truly difficult it would be using firing tables (and worse yet log books) to adjust simply with elevation and declination if there was just one poweder bag to fit all. That's not to say it's easy... just a hell of a lot more simple than it could be.

The gunnery was fun. I enjoyed firing the 105mm for most of our practice and and of course the 8 inch. The only guys I felt really sorry for were those using the M-198. Man what a pain the a** that must be to work on the crew. I also got to fire a 107mm mortar during a familiarization day with the Mech pukes.

Fire Direction was interesting because it challenged you mentally and you really got into the science of artillery. Fire Support was fun because we got to blow s*** up and it's more of the art of artillery.

Did you ever get to see a combined arms demonstration with a million dollar minute? The one they put on for us started with an old Civil War bronze cannon, then a French 75, introduced the M-119 and M--109A6 Paladin then progressed to the Mil$minute. We had tanks, tube artillery, Apaches, MLRS and even a B-1 out of Dyess flying around. It was amazing.

I forget most of the forms we had to fill out but I do remember how persnickerty we had to be with filling them out correctly. Nothing ends an officers career faster than a gun exploding and killing 5 people.

Did you do the old fashioned plotting boards, slide rules and log books or did they finally get rid of that stuff?

Yeah, but all that green/white bag stuff seems silly...

I didn't get to do any gunnery, mostly because I was such a hotshot that they couldn't spare me at my job(and I did that on purpose so I could avoid heavy lifting in the field!!) Mostly I was joined at the hip to various machinery, except when I was doing a survey with an actual transit, and that was always long before the batteries showed up.

I saw a couple of 'million dollar minute' sorts of things, one in California and one at Ft. Bragg. The Ft. Bragg one was a bit cooler, because I had a better spot to view it from...and it wasn't as dry, the one at 29 Palms was nothing but dust and sand almost from the get-go.

Oh, and we learned plotting boards in school, but never used them in practive, although we did confirm coordinates on the map before sending the data on to the guns...aren't computers wonderful? Beats the pure living hell out of log tables, although we still carried every damned FM and TM on earth out to the field with us. The officers needed a place to sit and drink coffee, after all!

[Troll]

Originally posted by Zero


Yeah, but all that green/white bag stuff seems silly...

I didn't get to do any gunnery, mostly because I was such a hotshot that they couldn't spare me at my job(and I did that on purpose so I could avoid heavy lifting in the field!!) Mostly I was joined at the hip to various machinery, except when I was doing a survey with an actual transit, and that was always long before the batteries showed up.

I saw a couple of 'million dollar minute' sorts of things, one in California and one at Ft. Bragg. The Ft. Bragg one was a bit cooler, because I had a better spot to view it from...and it wasn't as dry, the one at 29 Palms was nothing but dust and sand almost from the get-go.

Oh, and we learned plotting boards in school, but never used them in practive, although we did confirm coordinates on the map before sending the data on to the guns...aren't computers wonderful? Beats the pure living hell out of log tables, although we still carried every damned FM and TM on earth out to the field with us. The officers needed a place to sit and drink coffee, after all!

So being just a hair young for the Gulf I'm guessing you came in as GPS was still being introduced, correct? Meaning you still had to learn how to use the old PADS? Probably spent some time hanging with the guys from MET and AEM shops as well?

[Zero]

Originally posted by Troll


So being just a hair young for the Gulf I'm guessing you came in as GPS was still being introduced, correct? Meaning you still had to learn how to use the old PADS? Probably spent some time hanging with the guys from MET and AEM shops as well? Oh, LOTS of PADS...the GPS we had at the time wasn't accurate enough for surveying. Just like the Marines, buy cheap and replace often. If you know PADS, then I have a funny story for you. I managed to bust two of them in a span of about 5 minutes. Something about the way that the gyroscopes spun down as the machines broke...the first time wasn't so bad, but when the second one went, THAT was bad. $300,000 apiece, I think? I'm just glad they didn't make me pay for it.